BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 05:31 PM

Do we really need shite like this?

Jim.... " a racist vote is the worst reason in the world for a Government to change its leadership in mid-stream"

Raggytash....."He's probably started a cottage industry making bricks .....   for the gas ovens"


Jim do you really think everyone who voted to leave the EU is a racist?    If so you have lost your grip on reality! If not you are a disgrace.

Raggytash.....if that was supposed to be a joke, it was in very poor taste, but I don't believe it was a joke, more like sheer vindictiveness.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 05:41 PM

"Jim do you really think everyone who voted to leave the EU is a racist? "
The ampaign was run on a racist basis - it made neither economic or political sense - it was sold on the basis of getting reid of immigrants.
In the week following the referendum Race hate crimes increased by %400 - what else was it about.
A couple of years ago a survey suggested that one third of those questions held and had openly expressed racist views.
You work it out - or perhaps you are the wrong person to do that.
Your own views are right wing, racist and homophobic in the extreme
You, as all your other fellow Brexists have refused to acknowledge the damage this appalling decision has done - you in fact were the foirst to the top of the dunghill to crow about your great victory - which apparently includes the potential break-up of the UK and the closing of a major source of employment for British workers
Well done, the ***** lot of you.
You will respond to none of this
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 06:11 PM

As you well know Jim, the vote concerned the control of numbers of immigrants entering the UK not "getting rid of immigrants", whatever the fuck that is supposed to mean.
The ethnicity of these immigrants is incidental.

You are both demented and a disgrace....congratulations.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 06:19 PM

If you wish to discuss homosexual health rates, I refer to your charges of homophobia, open a new thread and any excuse you have for an argument will be demolished in the same manner as you have been dealt with here by Mr T.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 06:46 PM

No, akenaton, the vote concerned the CONTROL OF EU IMMIGRANTS entering the UK. The numbers of NON-EU IMMIGRANTS entering the UK, which are not affected by any EU free-movement rules, exceed the numbers of EU immigrants, yet this government have "failed to control" that immigration just as much as they have "failed to control" EU immigration allegedly, according to their excuse, due to EU rules. Why don't you get real and address the facts just for once. And here's a prediction: EU immigration will not be reduced by force within the next decade. Supply and demand may be a different matter, as ever. The reason is so bleedin' obvious that even you have mentioned it ad nauseam, though always in a terrible context in your case. We do not train people here to do the jobs we need people to do. Without immigrant nurses, for example, the NHS would collapse. Do try to focus.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jul 16 - 08:47 PM

"As you well know Jim, the vote concerned the control of numbers of immigrants entering the UK not "getting rid of immigrants","
Fist step only and you know it- within a day your supporters were stopping complete strangers in the street and asking them when they were going back to where they came from.
The %400 percent rise in race hate crimes (which you choose not to comment on, significantly) is an indication of what it was about.
"You are both demented and a disgrace.."
You people are the ones who wish to send back and prevent from coming to Britain, refugees fleeing from wars and social conditions we have helped to instigate - that's what I call, demented and a disgrace, as is your silence on the racism that is already occurring, or the support for forcing immigrants to wear armbands or have their from doors painted red in order to single them out for racist attacks...... and every other squalid racist action you have supported.
Makes being called "demented and a disgrace" a pleasure - it confirms that we are at opposite ends of the human condition.
"If you wish to discuss homosexual health rates,"
No I don't, only to add that anybody who vilifies and makes people with any form of health problems pariahs, as you persistently have, a real sicko.
The world has long moved on - society as a whole no longer regards homosexuality as a sickness (except in the most extreme and intolerant parts of the planet) - you are an anachronism.   
Bring pack chemical castration, eh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 03:32 AM

I think you have illustrated my last posts perfectly Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 03:52 AM

Then answer the points Ake.
Simple question
Since you have consistently presented homosexuals as disease-carrying perverts, what do you propose should be done to protect society from them?
Can't be too hard to answer, since you have obviously given the matter a great deal of thought judging by the efforts you have put into maligning them, though I have to say I expect a response to this from you as much as I expect a response from Teribus on his out-of-work "scroungers" and his homeless itinerant job-seekers.
Wait-ing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 04:55 AM

Guardian,
"Last night at Pulse, an LGBT nightclub in Orlando, Florida, 50 of our LGBT brothers and sisters were taken from us.

Today, like so many others in my community, I am overcome with a sense of helplessness. I am overcome with the urge to do something, anything, to help the victims and their families. Many in Orlando feel a similar urge. People are lining up to give blood in the wake of the massacre.

But gay and bisexual men who want to give today are encountering an obstacle: the FDA requires a year of celibacy before men who have sex with men can donate blood.

These new rules were put into practice in late 2015. "

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 06:22 AM

Steve Shaw - 11 Jul 16 - 06:46 PM

No, akenaton, the vote concerned the CONTROL OF EU IMMIGRANTS entering the UK. The numbers of NON-EU IMMIGRANTS entering the UK, which are not affected by any EU free-movement rules, exceed the numbers of EU immigrants, yet this government have "failed to control" that immigration just as much as they have "failed to control" EU immigration allegedly, according to their excuse, due to EU rules.

Ah Non-EU immigrants, economic refugees and asylum seekers become what when they arrive in the EU and are registered? According to "the rules" asylum seekers are supposed to stay in the first safe haven they find, but that is not what happens. Angela Merkel opened the German borders stating that all were welcome without having the foggiest clue of the magnitude of the problem she was creating. The two "richest" countries in the EU are Germany and the United Kingdom so where the hell do you think "Non-EU immigrants" would head for? If the UK is part of the EU and has to allow free uncontrolled movement then there is no way you can recover control of the numbers coming in. With the UK out of the EU the fact that the Non-EU immigrants manage by whatever means make it into the EU means that the gain no automatic right of entry into the EU, they also have the Channel to cross and if they cross once they land they can be turned round and deported immediately - the case for being an asylum seeker fleeing from Europe cannot be supported (There are exceptions of course - Julian Assange - who is actually fleeing a criminal charge)


EU immigration will not be reduced by force within the next decade.

Really? So you are saying that by being out of the EU it will, at some time in the future, be reduced - In that case good because it will never stop if we remain in the EU.

"Supply and demand may be a different matter, as ever. The reason is so bleedin' obvious that even you have mentioned it ad nauseam, though always in a terrible context in your case. We do not train people here to do the jobs we need people to do. Without immigrant nurses, for example, the NHS would collapse. Do try to focus."

Very pleased to see that you brought up the NHS. Anytime any leftist does that you know they are losing the argument, they invoke it as the "sacred cow" of all "sacred cows".

Remember Tony Blair's promises regarding the NHS in all three elections that he fought and won? The promises about more doctors, more nurses all to be completed in the course of that particular Parliament. I observed and commented in discussion at the time how patently empty these promises were as there was only one way they could deliver on those promises - qualified doctors and nurses would have to come from elsewhere, because it takes longer than the life of any single Parliament to complete the medical training required. So Steve your point about training places is irrelevant, the money required to do that was used to recruit qualified personnel from abroad.

In other fields the charge that - "We do not train people here to do the jobs we need people to do" - falls apart when you can get ready trained and experienced people from every trade and profession imaginable through the EU free movement of labour, under circumstances that you cannot prevent them from offering their labour. This leaves work that our youngsters are not prepared to do, so others more willing fill those slots. There is also the likes of you and Carroll who disapprove of modern day apprenticeships.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 07:32 AM

Not vindictiveness at all Akenaton.

I do not know most people on this forum, there are one or two exceptions who I have met and enjoyed the company of.

Thus I can only judge a person with the information I have, that is with the information they post on here.

I recent weeks Teribus (with whom I often disagree it has to be said) has increasingly posted aggressive, virulent sometimes strange but often downright nasty posts.

His posts have reminded me of some of the extremes of 1930's Germany and thus my comment.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 10:17 AM

No Akenaton it is not vindictiveness with Raggy - it is pure rage and frustration hence his references to "bricks for gas ovens" and suitability for service at Treblinka, Chelmno or Auschwitz-Birkenau. Truth is as far as being "governed" and dominated by an ideology both Raggy and Jom would serve far more readily if for one second they believed that in doing so it would advance their beliefs. Incapable of independent thought they are trapped by their own clichéd, worn out, disproven myths and bankrupt philosophy.

Raggy's rage and increasing levels of frustration stem from the fact that he hates having the mistakes made by him and his "friends" pointed out to everybody (Not really difficult considering the wealth of idiotic statements they come out with).

And all because I had a bit of harmless fun using information that he supplied to make the observation that someone living abroad, say in Ireland, being paid a UK pension in £Sterling would be taking a drop in pay - Oh dear how horrid of me.

Examples please of "frenzied, virulent and intemperate" or even "aggressive, virulent sometimes strange but often downright nasty posts"

Many people posting in 1930s Germany Raggy?

By the way FTSE at 11 month high
More people employed in the UK than ever before
Wages in the UK higher than they have ever been before

Source by the way - Office of National Statistics

Oh dear aren't we in such a mess.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 10:41 AM

That is one of your most desperate ever posts. All wishy-washy theory, no numbers, all surmise, quite a lot of spinning. You're nothing If not entertaining,, Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 10:42 AM

I was referring to the 06.22 post.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 11:45 AM

You're nothing If not entertaining,, Teribus.

Entertaining? Don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 12:30 PM

I refer you once again, to my 9 July, 2:50 PM posting. Some things, regrettably don't change.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 01:08 PM

Oh he is entertaining..

a classic comedy heartless tory villain,
if only we still had sit com writers of the calibre of Galton & Simpson [retired ?] and Johnny Speight [deceased]
to create an edgy satirical TV series based around him.. 😜

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jul 16 - 01:29 PM

All clowns are entertaining - even the ones who scare you shitless with their nastiness - didn't you ever see 'Dumbo'?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 06:07 AM

OK, all the LIARS who cited the threat of TTIP as a reason for leaving EU, how do you explain this as part of Davis's exit blueprint?

"The UK should "accelerate" the agreement of the controversial Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership deal with the US"

Another one:

"Britain should start to wean itself off grants from Brussels well before the UK finally severs its links to the EU and instead pay grants directly to farmers and fishermen"

Out of taxpayers money? - So why should farmers, and fishermen get a single penny while we are still contributing to CAP? And after, why should they get a penny, as we are leaving on the basis of the promise that the EU contribution would directly fund the health service, nothing else.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 06:58 AM

I object to paying subsidies to farmers. No-one gives a shit if my business goes to the wall.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 07:00 AM

Matter of CHOICE SPB-Cooperator and who gets to make the choices that affect us.

Out of the EU, UK politicians can make decisions and choices that affect the UK and only the UK.

Inside the EU, we a re forced to accept and comply with decisions and choice that may well not be in our interests.

Out of the EU, it is far, far easier for the UK to make trade deals with whoever it wishes to, we do not have to get unanimous agreement of 27 other Governments before we can sign up. The world is a larger trading partner than Europe.

VAT was the tax introduced in the UK when it joined the Common Market to pay our share into the EEC's coffers. Now that we are leaving the EU we can do one or more of three things:

1: Scrap it altogether
2: Retain it and immediately profit by the net amount we pay to Europe (After Germany the UK was the EU's biggest contributor, so if we maintain VAT at current levels we get to keep what we previously paid to Europe)
3: Keep the VAT system but rejig it and tailor it suit our requirements.

"the basis of the promise that the EU contribution would directly fund the health service, nothing else."

No such "promise" was ever made, the statement made regarding hospitals, etc, were illustrative of what the use the savings from not paying into the EU MIGHT be put to in the UK - NOT what they would be used for.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 07:17 AM

On the Brexit Battle Bus it said:

"WE SEND THE EU £350 MILLION A WEEK: LET'S FUND OUR NHS INSTEAD, VOTE LEAVE"

Quite clear, quite unequivocal the NHS were to get a cash windfall, not we MIGHT give them a few bob extra.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 08:28 AM

"After Germany the UK was the EU's biggest contributor..."

Which is why Germany has done SO badly in the EU, why its economy is nosediving SO steeply and why everybody in Germany is SO miserable about being in the EU...

Mind you, they didn't have a Thatcher to shut down their manufacturing industries and turn them into a nation of unregulated banking spivs and insurance salesmen...

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 12:55 PM

I didn't mention VAT, but as you brought it up, contribution is fixed at 0.3% of VAT revenue - ie 0.06% of the net charge of taxable supplies in UK. The fixed contribution is standard for all EU states, and the net based on individual states' choice of VAT rates. So by exiting we could reduce VAT to 19.94%. Below this would result in a reduction in retained tax revenue which would be at the expense of public spend or ability for deficit reduction.

Also it is misleading to associate EU standardisation with imposition of indirect taxation. Before VAT we had purchase tax which at once stage was charges at over 38%. Unfortunately I was only 12 or 13 when it was phased out and as such I am yet to find a web page that explains its mechanisms.

With regards to making choices - I do not have problems with making decisions as part of a wider consensus with care towards how my decisions have an impact on others and only 0.25% of decisions in the council of ministers not going UK's way is not a bad track record.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 01:05 PM

Well said.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 01:15 PM

Purchase Tax Rate was 25% immediately prior to the introduction of VAT on 1/4/73, which, of course, replaced Purchase Tax.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 02:04 PM

They are all moot points, the die is cast, people no matter how they voted must move on.
The situation in Turkey aught to make us thank our lucky stars for Mr Farage without whom there would have been no Brexit. I don't suppose he will get any respect from the sore losers here, but he deserves respect in shedloads......Have you actually watched him in debate? He cuts them all down. He knows the facts whether they be politically correct or not. He said he would get the UK out of the EU and he did so spectacularly.

Regardless of his politics, are you unable to appreciate principle and bravery?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 02:27 PM

And then he f**ked off to collect his 95,000 Euro a year as an MEO plus his 43,000 Euro a year allocation for unspecified expenses PLUS his other claimed for expenses ALL from the very body he objects so much to.

I could do that "gissa a job"

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 02:29 PM

"but he deserves respect in shedloads"

No he doesn't. He's a con artist, a xenophobe a regressive and he's the lot of you hook line and sinker, then scarpered when the real work starts.

You've been done up like a kipper son.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Jul 16 - 05:18 PM

As I have mentioned already, Mr Farage would have been given no part in implementing the decision to leave the EU, his job is done he has delivered, it is up to the government to bring forward Brexit.... and it will be done whether you like it or not.

The EU is rapidly becoming a basket case.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 03:17 AM

"his job is done he has delivered"
So an unelected, beer swilling fascist moron had a part in the decision to leave the E.U. - and a racist, homophobic follower has the nerve to complain about unelected bureaucrats!!
The die is cast, and Britain must live with the consequences, but the Brexits here feel no need to even respond to those consequences, not even to defend them.
Dishonest, irresponsible and cowardly, all in one bundle
Perhaps you can tell us when you mean to send them all back Ake - have you stopped any on the street yet and asked them when they are going home - or don't you have the bottle to do that even?
Maybe you can start dropping reminders through their la etter boxes, or asking them why they aren't wearing their armbands.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 04:10 AM

He is an elected MEP.
He was elected to resist EU from within.
He has received nothing that he is not fully entitled to.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 04:51 AM

"He is an elected MEP."
And as an unattached MEP he had no responsibility to "deliver" anything without the authority of parliament.
He's taken the money and run, as do all of his type
"He has received nothing that he is not fully entitled to."
Neither has Neil Kinnock - whether either entitlement is justified is a moot point.
He was elected on a racist ticket - if that's how you people wish Britain to be recognised..... what does it say about you as British citizens (you've told us that anyway)'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 07:18 AM

Your hero Farage has the 745th best voting attendance record in the European Parliament. There are 746 MEPs. The only one with a worse record is a man who has suffered long-term ill-health that has prevented him from attending. One could suggest that the way to resist the EU "from within" would be to bloody well turn up.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 08:23 AM

Mr Farage was the instigator of the campaign, a campaign which has been extremely effective.

He even manage to convince many Ex Labour voters to join in and support a cause which is way above party politics.

Armbands? they were concealed wristbands, and I do not support Fascism or terrorise people......Mr Farage and his family have received dozens of death threats from people not unlike you Jim.
I have never heard Mr Farage contend that immigrants who have arrived here legally should be sent home....he has always said that we can never "have control" over who comes here or in what numbers till we exit the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 08:32 AM

"Mr Farage was the instigator of the campaign, a campaign which has been extremely effective. "
In breaking up the UK, closing the door on employment for British people prepared to travel, destabalising British economy and industry and dividing the British people - well done Mr Farage and well done the hate-filled twots who supported him.
Sounds, from his voting record, that he really put an effort into what he was paid to do, but I suppose you'll have as much courage to respond to that as you have to he shit-storm you people have created for Britain.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 08:42 AM

Give the country time Jim. Its only been a couple of weeks of blind terror from the establishment.....Calm down, all will be well, in a few months time all this will just seem like a bad dream.....you will love it getting to know all these nice trading partners from all over the world......why, some of them may even be family, long forgotten.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 08:48 AM

Raggytash - 17 Jul 16 - 07:17 AM - Nope.

Steve Shaw - 17 Jul 16 - 08:28 AM - Since its creation the EU has existed as a cosy club designed to keep Germany and France sweet - they run the EU and they interpret the rules as best benefit themselves.

Steve Shaw - 17 Jul 16 - 01:05 PM - "Well said" Shaw? SPB's post backs up precisely what I said - Out of the EU WE get to decide what VAT is.

Raggytash - 17 Jul 16 - 02:27 PM - Yes he does Raggy as do every single one of the 750 other MEPs - that is what they are entitled to as part of this great "gravy train" - but look at the bright side, seeing as how you object to it so much - in a short while WE won't be paying anything towards it.

Jim Carroll - 18 Jul 16 - 03:17 AM - Unelected?? How the hell do you think he became an MEP you Prat I think last time out in 2014 some 750,000 odd voted for UKIP in the South East England EU Constituency he represents.

Jim Carroll - 18 Jul 16 - 04:51 AM

"as an unattached MEP he had no responsibility to "deliver" anything without the authority of parliament."

About the daftest statement I think I have ever read - not surprising really considering who wrote it - Parliamentary democracy Jom - what about the man's responsibility to deliver what he promised those who voted for him - oddly enough the world MIGHT be a far better place if more elected representatives followed his example and did the same.

Steve Shaw - 18 Jul 16 - 07:18 AM - Turn up, wasting his time and our money to do what? Please supply one instance where his absence and the want of his vote would have changed anything one iota. But as Akenaton has stated a couple of times now - Nigel Farage arrived in the EU Parliament and stated he would take the UK out - he has managed to do that and his greatest ally in achieving that aim has been the arrogance, the idiocy, the smugness and the inefficiency of the EU itself.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 09:37 AM

And speaking of entertaining clowns, I give you the new Fortigh Secretary!

"Last week's announcement that European Union exit campaign leader Boris Johnson would become Britain's foreign secretary was greeted in global capitals as a joke or a twisted insult. Such is the depth and duration of Johnson's columnist-clever insults, international reaction to his appointment has been overwhelmingly negative. Johnson is widely viewed as inherently untrustworthy, a buffoon bizarrely elevated to become Britain's premier representative abroad."

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/14/boris-johnson-foreign-secretary-view-from-abroad

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 09:57 AM

Ah so someone to carry on the traditions and example as set by the late great Lord George Brown.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 10:03 AM

I cannot help but feel that Boris has been set up to fail.

One stupid/misguided comment or action and he could be out on his ear and into the cold.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 10:39 AM

Greg, Boris is a right wing politician and the Guardian is a left wing paper.
What opinion did you expect?

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 10:43 AM

Nigel Farage, the Ukip MEP said, "Any similarity to democracy in the European Parliament is purely accidental. Ukip MEPs spend more time helping constituents whose lives and livelihoods have been ruined by EU legislation.
"While we are always present for crucial votes, Britain has normally already been sold down the river by the British government long before the parliament votes on what is a foregone conclusion."

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 11:47 AM

What opinion did you expect?

Yours, as usual, Professor.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Stu
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 12:14 PM

"Calm down, all will be well, in a few months time all this will just seem like a bad dream.....you will love it getting to know all these nice trading partners from all over the world......"

Seriously? You think we're just going to drift into a whole slew of trade agreements in a few months? You think we're going to negotiate out of the EU within a few months? You think Article 50 will be triggered in a few months?

May will have little choice to kick the ball into the long grass for a while. We won't gain access to the single market without freedom of movement, and many in the EU won't be minded to be particularly accommodating now. All those Easter European states have a veto, and they're not as easily brought as your leaders told you and they don't care for our world 'status' (such as it was).

To get the trade deals we need (no deals, no investment) we'll probably ending up agreeing to everyone's demands to get a trade deal with them and get royally fucked over at the same time. These deals will be heavily incentivised, lobbied for very aggressively and those offering them will not give two shades about our desire to maintain an NHS for the good of our people, or any of those wonderful 'British' values we're taking back for ourselves and make our country great. Then we need to deal with tariffs for each individual country we trade with, subsidies that we now have to find ourselves from farmers, regions, etc to the complete lack of EU money coming into our cities to regenerate them etc. We need to find the money for the grants we will loose to fund the ground-breaking research we do in our universities (where things are not good following the vote). Boris and Nige lied on their bus. Lied.

You can believe all this flam from the likes of Boris and Farage, but making their Brexit fantasy world a reality is not going to be easy... as the Canadians, who are seven years into trade negotiations with the Eu and still a ways off from ratification. The sheer amount of negotiation to be done is boggling, and we have very few negotiators.

The thing is, Brexit won't be some utopian dream of flag-waving nationalists and the forgotten working class because it's they who will suffer. There is so much to fix and Theresa may knows full well much of this exceeds the mandate of the government; she'll have to go to the country in 2020 to get the go-ahead for any deal with the EU from the voters, and a lot can change in that time. So far we've had little (if any) psotive action from the Brexiteers, and those of us who didn't vote for leaving but have as equal a stake in this country as any leaver will be holding them to account. Not to do so would be to go against what we've stood for so long in this country and what the Leavers forgot in their hurry to go; we have a history of progressive and radical politics which has always challenged the status quo to improve the lot of the ordinary man.

Brexiteers, prepare to be challenged. For years and years to come.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 12:54 PM

Nothing can be made to work, unless there is a will to make it so.

The EU had decades and it still doesn't work.

I honestly think you people would love to see the country fail, so that your idiotic ideology remains intact. At this moment in time there are much more important things than "minority rights"

This country chooses a Capitalist system, and under such as system the most efficient way is the "right" way.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 01:24 PM

"many in the EU won't be minded to be particularly accommodating now"

Now why would that be the case? We buy more from them than they do from us. Do you really think any shop, or restaurant owner acts in such a manner to put obstacles in the way of a good customer? Bloody idiotic.

Any time anyone from the liberal-left starts wittering on about protecting the NHS you know that they are losing the argument, they invoke it like a lucky charm.

"Then we need to deal with tariffs for each individual country we trade with"

Oh goody if they charge tariffs on our goods and services, does that mean that mean we get to charge tariffs on theirs? And as they sell more to us who collects the more from tariffs us or them?

You've forgotten little things like the problems in Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal and France and problems with the Euro - none of them gone away and they are unlikely to in the near future.

Nobody in Europe is going to punish the UK for exercising a right that is specifically mentioned in the Treaty - THE RIGHT OF A STATE TO LEAVE - That may well be way you ideologues would act, cutting your nose off to spite your face, but it is not what reasonable, rational people do.

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 01:54 PM

"About the daftest statement I think I have ever read "
Really?
Did you here about the English itinerant wirork forece with nowhere to live,
Or the lazy British Teachers, nurses, tradesmen, who thought it was wrong to be forced to work stacking shelves in Sainsburys for a pittance
Or the Irish who really didn't want independence but who had to be tricked into it.
Or the sales of ammunition to Syria which never happaened, or were refused a licence, or were granted a licence but never sent, or were the wrong size.... (or another three or four reasons).
Or Liverpudlians living in riches in 1914
Or Democratic Britain in the 1840s.....
Or any of the other pratish ideas you've tried to bully through and then done a runner from?
You have led a very sheltered life.
Still having trouble at home, so you have to come here and show us what a big boy you are?
Are you ever going to actually present some proof for your stupid arguments?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 03:14 PM

""While we are always present for crucial votes, Britain has normally already been sold down the river by the British government long before the parliament votes on what is a foregone conclusion."


Did you not understand Steves' post ! ? !


"Your hero Farage has the 745th best voting attendance record in the European Parliament. There are 746 MEPs. The only one with a worse record is a man who has suffered long-term ill-health that has prevented him from attending. One could suggest that the way to resist the EU "from within" would be to bloody well turn up"

Subject: RE: BS: To Br/Exit Or Not To Br/Exit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 16 - 07:26 PM

Nobody is going to punish the UK, eh? So you think the EU is going to be falling over backwards to give us great deals? Well there's something you need to know, Mr Lack-of-realpolitik. An awful lot of the 27 remaining nations are watching this with interest to see if there is something in it for them if they also choose to leave. Well them damn Germans and French were not born yesterday. They will make leaving as difficult as possible for us. In fact, it's perfectly possible that we won't leave at all. Pour encourager les autres, eh?