BS: Saddam Will Rise Again

Subject: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: GUEST,Crowbar
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 08:36 AM

Due the the feckless supporters of Political Correctness and Anti-War girly men, Saddam Hussein will regain his position of Dictator of Iraq.

Crowbar

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: Green Man
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 08:48 AM

Don't feed the Troll :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: GUEST,Crowbar
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 09:14 AM

Greenman:

Thanks for the instructions.

Now tell us what we are allowed to think.

Crowbar

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: Amos
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 09:40 AM

I think it is extremely unlikely. Ten bucks?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 09:47 AM

Now, Amos, I think most of us will agree that he will rise, at least temporarily on the scaffold...

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 09:47 AM

Only way Saddam's gonna rise again is if someone can figure out a way to get his soul back from Hell after he's been executed.

On the other hand, the likelihood of another strongman rising to power in Iraq would seem pretty darn good. And the likelihood of that strongman being a religious fanatic instead of a secularist like Saddam seems even better.

But it won't be "due (to) the the feckless supporters of Political Correctness and Anti-War girly men". It'll simply be because expecting a society that, throughout it's entire history, has been ruled by a monarchy, dictatorship, or external colonial/imperialist power to reverse course and adopt a democratic system of self-governance is unrealistic.

I hope Mr. Bush's experiment in externally-imposed democracy works, because the consequences of it not working are really scary.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: GUEST,Crowbar
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 09:55 AM

What will happen to Saddam?

Already he can't get an unfair trial. Killers hired by his family and Baathist supporters are killing the lawyers of others on trial to make it an unfair trial. "I can't get a lawyer because the insurgency caused by the US is killing the lawyers."

It will be moved to the Hague and he will make a campaign platform out of it.

The new Iraq government will fall apart due to killers harbored, supported and financed by Iran and Syria and Baathists.

He will then be able to regain his former position and blame everything on the US.

He is being aided and abetted by anti-war wimps all over the world.

The sumbitch needs to be executed now.

Crowbar

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: TIA
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 10:07 AM

Actually, it's rather wimpy to go along with the tough talk distortions that led us into the war. Much tougher to face the truth.

You'll find all kinds of anti-warriors who agree with you that Saddam must never return, let alone go free.

But you'll make no friends and influence few people blaming Saddam on us.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: GUEST,Crowbar
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 10:31 AM

So what is your plan for bringing justice to Saddam? Withdraw from Iraq?

Crowbar

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 10:33 AM

Naw...he'll never run Iraq again. Not a chance. But there is one out for the big guy, and this is it. He does a sudden, dramatic religious conversion and gets "born again", preferably after a heartfelt confab with Billy Graham. It worked for George Bush, so why not for Saddam? From that point on, Saddam will constantly quote Jesus, his new Lord and Saviour, and will love everything American (Jesus was an American, wasn't he? Must have been...). Hell, Manuel Noriega did it too, and they didn't execute him. Remember? Okay, so next thing that happens, Saddam will be exported stateside and take up country music or maybe even become a TV gospel preacher. He will get a daytime TV show from Las Vegas and deliver diatribes against Muslim fundamentalists and anybody else that doesn't love Jesus and America.

This is definitely the way out for Saddam, and I think he should go for it. No question.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: GUEST,Crowbar
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 10:46 AM

Not Graham. He should get The Rev Jesse Jackson, Clinton's spiritual advisor to cleanse away any wrong doing.

Crowbar

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 10:50 AM

So what's your plan.....

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 10:54 AM

That's an inspired idea, Crowbar, but it would be a better move to make under a future Democratic administration than the present Republican one. I figure Saddam will have to be pretty cagey about this, and pick the right preacher to suit the prevailing political climate in Washington.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 10:56 AM

im sick of folk telling me he/she is a troll. trolls everywhere.

dont tell me what to do dickhead

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: Piers
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 11:03 AM

It makes good business sense to give Saddam a seat on the board of some arms manufacturer. His contacts in the middle-east would be could have great value for any firm supplying security to region. Besides a lot of US public money was invested in Saddam in the 80s.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: GUEST,Crowbar
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 11:06 AM

I think the answer is quit whining and to stay the course.

Of course you can do and think what you like but what is your solution?

Crowbar

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 11:10 AM

Guest - If you use the shift key when you type the word dickhead it will show up as DICKHEAD. It will have a lot more impact that way.

It's just a suggestion - please don't confuse that with telling you what to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff wdyat12
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 11:27 AM

Saddam is DEAD! What we see here in this political circus is the 13th remnant of the Saddam Lookalike Contest pre George W Bush. So What! Where is What's his name? Twin Towers, 911, Suadis, Oil, Micheal Moore was right!

wdyat12

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 11:34 AM

"stay the course"

Yeah, that's what Johnson and Nixon said about Vietnam. But then...Nixon got elected TWICE for promising to "end the war in Vietnam". He ended it by losing! (chuckle) Well, he ended it by pretending that "Vietnamization" would work and that the South Vietnamese government forces could hold the country. They couldn't. Not by a long shot. They went down like a lead balloon. I call that ending a war by losing it.

"stay the course"

That's what Hitler said about the war in Russia. Hmmm.

"stay the course"

That's what Saddam said about the war with Iran. Hmmmm.

"stay the course"

That's what the King of Spain said about taking over England when he sent the Armada. Remember?

"stay the course"

That's what Jefferson Davis said after Atlanta fell.

Boy, just think what they could have achieved if not undercut by all those damned whiners and naysayers who told them it was all over!

My solution? Admit that this war was done for the wrong reasons, was a bad idea, was illegal, and is impossible to end. Disengage as soon as possible. The aftereffects will not be nice. There will most likely be a lot of fighting for some time between Shiites, Sunnis, and Kurds, with the Sunnis and Kurds getting the worst of it, because they are outnumbered. That is almost unavoidable, and it will be a direct result OF the present war.

One other thing that could be done: bring in a multinational peacekeeping force from the U.N. to help police the area for a few years as has been done in other wartorn regions, like the Balkans. However, I think in this case it would be quite hard to find very many countries willing to contribute troops to such a force. The risks are too high, and the payoff is questionable.

The situation in Iraq now is an unholy mess that offers no obvious solution whatsoever. It could have been avoided in the first place by NOT attacking them for things they didn't have (weapons of mass destruction)...and things they didn't do (911).

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 11:39 AM

Dang it Little Hawk ya beat me too it.

Crowbar - what LH said.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 11:41 AM

"Stay the course" with five examples in which it was wrong is very impressing. Would you be impressed as well with five examples in which it was right?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 11:51 AM

The difference Wolfgang hinges on if we were supposed to be there in the first place.

We should not be in Iraq. My guess is we will disagree on that statement. Correct ?

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 12:26 PM

No, you are not correct, Wesley. I strongly agree with your statement. The Iraq war was at the very least a serious error or even worse.

If I disagree with a type of argumentation I may or may not disagree with the opinion for which was argued. In this case I agree with Little Hawks opinion but not with his particular type of argumentation for it.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 12:40 PM

Yes, Wolfgang, here are five examples in which it was right.

Stalin stayed the course when resisting the German invasion.

Ho Chi Mink, the Veit Minh, the NLF, and North Vietnam stayed the course when resisting foreign occupation of their country by various people (the French, the Japanese, the French again, the Americans, and an American surrogate Catholic Vietnamese client administration in Saigon).

Elizabeth the 1st of England stayed the course when menaced by a possible seaborne invasion by Spain.

Iran stayed the course when invaded by Iraq (which was armed by the USA, Britain, etc).

Abraham Lincoln stayed the course after disastrous defeats at places like Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville.

Simple, eh? You happy now? ;-)

Staying the course is a good idea when:

1. you are defending your own land against an invader
2. you are fighting for a valid reason
3. AND when it is still possible to bring your cause to a successful conclusion

If #3 is not a feasible possibility, then staying the course is not an act of wisdom, but an act of stubborness, pride, and absolute folly, doomed to defeat...as in the case of Jefferson Davis after Atlanta's fall, for example....or in the case of Hitler's dragging out the fight in Germany till the Russians were shelling his own bunker in the ruins of Berlin.

As for the USA's position in Iraq, I believe it fails to satisfy either #1, #2, or #3.

We may, however, differ on the chances of the USA and Britain bringing the situation in Iraq to a successful conclusion. I don't think they can do so. Perhaps you think they can.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 12:55 PM

Some more interesting examples, Wolfgang:

Geronimo and other Apache leaders stayed the course when resisting American invasion of their ancestral lands. They were resisting foreign invasion and they were fighting for a valid reason. Eventually, however, it was no longer possible to bring their defence effort to a successful conclusion. They were too outnumbered. There comes a point when it is simply stupid and futile to stay the course any longer.

Accordingly, Geronimo finally surrendered.

What one has to do at the end of the day is this: face reality.

Each situation is unique, and each situation must be dealt with on the basis of its particular conditions.

I think the US war in Iraq fails to satisfy any reasonable rationale, and therefore is unsupportable. I think it was launched for irrational emotional reasons (revenge for 911 and other things), irrational notions of establishing "security" for the American homeland (it has not done that and will not do that), greed for oil, and other unjustifiable motives.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: Amos
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 01:10 PM

The problem is that the course was not defined at the outset; it was changed drastically several times in the course of the war dependingt on what line Bush thought he could sell.

The course as currently defined, like the orgiinal invasion, is predicated on a poor perception of the nature of the public intop which Bush seeks to inject his beliefs about what "should" be.

If you go to a Thursday bazaar, where owning a single stall is a sign of prestige and every sale is argued to the tenth of a dinar, and try to sell them computer-based market analysis, because everyone knows that's how it should be, they will run you out of the bazaar on muleback.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: TIA
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 01:42 PM

Okay, Crowbar's solution is "stay the course". What is this course we are staying?

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: GUEST,Crowbar
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 01:46 PM

"If you go to a Thursday bazaar, where owning a single stall is a sign of prestige and every sale is argued to the tenth of a dinar, and try to sell them computer-based market analysis, because everyone knows that's how it should be, they will run you out of the bazaar on muleback."??

What happens if you go to a bazaar in Tuesday and try to sell them Quaker Oats?

Would they run you out of the bazaar on camelback or donkeyback?

What would we sell them at a bazaar that would be suitable?

What would we prefer to ride on if they still do not like what we are selling?

Maybe the Easter Bunny knows the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 01:52 PM

Keep crowbra busy here and the idiot won't infect other threads. Its a public service.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 03:31 PM

LOL! Now, there's a cynical view of it. Thanks for the laugh, GUEST.

Crowbar - I think the vital thing about going to a bazaar is this: Don't sell the people your stuff at gunpoint. They may buy it (not having much choice about it), but they will find ways to get even with you later. Or their children will. Or their children's children.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 05:31 PM

Never met a bazaar I didn't like. Almost everything may be found for sale, including Quaker Oats.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: GUEST,Easter Bunny
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 08:45 PM

Damned if I know. Ask Amos

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 08:49 PM

Ah, but just think how much simpler life would be then...

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 09:17 PM

Hey, I hope that Saddam does regain his position of dictator!!!

Yeah, that's what I said...

The only thing that will stabilize Iraq, which Bush and all his men can't do, is Saddam...

Then send Rumsfeld over with a nice collection of goodies and a few pats on the back and next thing ya' know, Saddam is eatin' outta our hands again... Ready to gas the Iranians 'er whatever we need him to do...

Saddam was allways a company man... Even when he told Bush I that he was gonna invade Kuwair he go a "wink"...

Then Bush I thought he's roll Saddam under the bus fir political reasons ehre at home (like popularity ratings, sound familiar???) and so Bush I let Saddam go into Kuwait so that he could have a ni8ce little war that was supposed to get Bush I re-elected... Problem is that he mis-timed things and the American people saw thru him a little earlier than thery have now seen thru the son...

But, yeah, I'd take a thousand Saddam's over what we got now which is an endless quagmire of folks diein' (at our hands) and so much of out tax bucks going to buy the bullets...

So, yeah, Saddam.... We need you now more now than ever...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 09:22 PM

Bobert: That's the stupidist statement I have ever heard.

Are you potty trained yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 09:46 PM

What'as so stupid about it, GUEST, and be specific please...

(Also take under consideration whatnyou have now in Iraq-mire...)

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 10:18 PM

Every word, every thought, everything is stupid, sarcastic bullshit.

You are an idiot that is so seething with animosity you can't even type correctly. A danger to society.

Do the world a favor and commit suicide.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 10:50 PM

'Er better yet, kill yer redneck dumbass...

Talk about ignorant, you are about eat up with it...

Tell ya what, you wanta kill Iragi women and kids, sign yer ignorant ass up in the the US militray an' go kill yer fill, assh*le...

Have a nice war, jerk!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: GUEST,Interested bystander.
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 11:01 PM

"You are an idiot that is so seething with animosity you can't even type correctly."

Actually, that should read 'an idiot who'.

His typing is part of his signature here. Poor grammar/diction: is that part of yours? And that doesn't begin to address your deplorable attitude. You are Crowbar. And we all know who that is. Man of at least twenty faces, none of them his. Talk about a girly man. You are the epitome of that. No balls at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 11:06 PM

Bobert's spelling problems are due to dyslexia, I believe, not stupidity...

What he is saying is: when you have a country that is patched together out of several mutually hostile religious/ethnic groups (Kurds, Shiites, and Sunnis)....rather like Yugoslavia was (Serbs, Croatians, Bosnians, and Kosovars)...and that country is in a fairly primitive level of social development, where violence can happen easily between such groups...then the only way to keep the lid on the pot is with a strongman as leader.

In Yugoslavia it was Tito. He kept things peaceful and rather prosperous for decades in that country. After he died, it fell apart. In Iraq, Saddam managed to keep things running in an orderly fashion too, but it all started to unravel after he went off and fought a proxy war for the USA against Iran in the 80's, then invaded Kuwait, and then got attacked twice by the USA. Iraq was once the most modern, prosperous and liberal society in the Arab world (prior to the war with Iran). It is now an utter disaster.

To say that is in no way to excuse Saddam for his many crimes, it is simply to point out that in this case...the America-offered cure for Saddam has proven worse for most ordinary Iraqis than the disease was. That was Bobert's point.

There's an interesting book out about the war. It's called "The War Against Truth". Written by a Canadian journalist who was there during the war, and saw close up what was happening. You oughta check it out. You think Saddam was hated? Oh, he was. But take another think and imagine just how much America is hated there now. You'd have to be there to realize just how much. I'm glad I'm not there, and I feel sorry for any young American soldiers who are. It was not their decision, and they were lied to by their government.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 11:23 PM

Thank you, LH, fir yer support...

Lotta folks here have this tunnel vision that only allows them to look at what has been *spoon-fed* them and when someone comes along and says anything tyhat migh be in conflict with their pablum diet of lies, then it's crunch time yet again fir them....

Problem is that they are one the wrong side of the equation....lBush as royally screwed things up... Hey, the "Saudi Plan" (Mitchell Plan( would have circumvented this ebtire quagmire and brought some level of peace to0 the region but it wasn't as sexy as a war.... SDo given the choice between sexy and politically expdient 'er smart, bUsh took Plan "A".......

...and look where it has landed him???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 02:29 AM

Thanks, Bobert, for saying what many people have been thinking for awhile, especially those from the Middle East. Saddam may have been a madman but he was their madman and at least knew how to control the many factions that threatened to destroy Iraq.

Nobody thanks Bush for doing what Saddam prevented and both Americans and Iraqis have payed dearly.

Chalabi created this war with the help of Bush and Blair. Does anyone in their right mind believe that Iraq is doing better with Chalabi as head of State? Talk about selling out your people to a foreign power. Chalabi is ten times worse than Saddam. Not only that, Chalabi cannot even stand on his own two feet.

Look at Iraq now and Iraq five years ago. Saddam was bad but Chalabi is worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 02:33 AM

That last post was from me. How did drop my cookies?

dianavan

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 07:21 AM

My exact point, cookieless-d, Chalabi has no credible crendantials of being a man capable of runnin' Iraq or being able to stop the civil war that is going on there now...

I find it amazing the the US used him a source for their pre-war intellegence since the man hadn't lived their in over 20 years...

It is still my belief that had Bush II had wanted to reel Saddam back into the fold that all it would have taken is another gold plated M-16 ($2500), a jeweled sword ($2500) and a box of cigars ($200) and a visit from Rumsfeld... Yeah, Saddam was always eager to please the master... It's jus' when the master got a little pissy with him that his feelings would get hurt and he's be difficult...

BTW, I have asked the pro-war folks here how many folks Saddam was killin' per day in the year leadin' up to the invasion... Yeah, people love to throw around numbers but numbers can be very misleadin'...

Example: Saddam did stop an upriasing of the Kurds after Gulf I and, yeah, this was purdy nasty, especially since the US had promised the Kurds assisitence then rolled them under Saddam's bus... But if you take those numbers and roll them into the equation then, sure, Saddam waqs averagin' _______ deaths per day.... Handy little stat fir the hawks to throw out but l;ike how many folks did Saddam kill the Wednesday before the invasion of the Wednesday before that???

And how many Iraqi women, children and old folks did Bush kill the Wednesday after the inasion or the Wednesday after that???

This isn't just splitting hairs here... It is not a given that Saddam killed anyone the Wednesday before the invasion but it sho nuff is a given that Bush did the Wednesday after and probably every Wednesday since...

Plus, it is still my contention that Bush invaded Iraq, among other corporate interests fir thwe sole purpose of tryin' to win an election in '04 so Boss Hog coukld continue his raping and pillaging of America's working class...

And given the voter irregularities in Ohio, there's no proff that Bush actually won the '04 election unless theivery is okay in winning...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 08:01 AM

Bobert,

"Lotta folks here have this tunnel vision that only allows them to look at what has been *spoon-fed* them and when someone comes along and says anything tyhat migh be in conflict with their pablum diet of lies, then it's crunch time yet again fir them...."

"Yeah, people love to throw around numbers but numbers can be very misleadin'..."

I agree with you on this- it applies eqully to you as to others
(including, probably, myself and most others on posting here). Care to bring any FACTS to the discussion?




"And given the voter irregularities in Ohio,"

Care to star a thread on this? It seems that only two of the 68 counties in Ohio even used Diebold machines...

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 08:15 AM

Bobert:

You sound like a violent, unstable person to me.

Are you an anarchist too?

Did you go down to Argentina and march under a banner of Stalin, bust in and burn some stores?

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 08:24 AM

"but it sho nuff is a given that Bush did the Wednesday after and probably every Wednesday since..."

Actually, that is no more a given than any other unsupported claim you have made on Mudcat.


At the present time, the number of civilians killed in Iraq by the INSURGENTS is approaching, if it has not surpassed, the number of civilians killed by all US actions, Including the war itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 08:30 AM

GUEST:

Violent: No, though I beleive in self-defense and have had some martial arts training...

Unstable: Hardly. I would have gotten to the position I'm in if I were unstable...

Anarchist: Heck no. I believe in "govern"ment but not6 too wild about "ruler"ment...

Argentina: Yeah, I would have been in the streets, too... I don't believe that we need any more IMF and World Bank policies that are used by our "rulers" to exploit people in South American countries...

Stalin: Not my cup of tea, thank you...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: GUEST,leftydee
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 12:45 PM

Guest,

The only thing I think you can accuse Bobert of is critical thinking. Look that concept up.... it may help you get your head out of your ass. Lefty

Subject: RE: BS: Saddam Will Rise Again
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 03:18 PM

"At the present time, the number of civilians killed in Iraq by the INSURGENTS is approaching, if it has not surpassed, the number of civilians killed by all US actions, Including the war itself."

That the problem BB. If Bush had not invaded, there would be no insurgents.