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BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: CarolC Date: 07 May 02 - 11:34 PM Sorry troll. I've got to do this.
GUEST, I don't see "Jews", or "Palestinians", or "Gentiles" (I don't like that word), or "Arabs", or any of those things. What I see is sparks of divinity espressing themselves in human form. That's all. And that makes all of them my most cherished relatives and loved ones. And it breaks my heart when any of them are killed. Any of them. The fact that I think Sharon and the Likud party are responsible for the way things have turned out in Israel and Palestine doesn't make me an evil person. It just means that I don't have the scales in my eyes preventing me from seeing reality that you have. All (or at least much) of this killing could have been prevented if Israel had abided by the Oslo accords instead of reneging on them when Nethanyahu took office. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: Troll Date: 07 May 02 - 11:50 PM GUEST, thanks so much for your keen, penetrating analysis and incisive, witty, explaination of a most difficult subject. Your comments enrich the lives of all who hear them. If you would actually READ Carols posts, you would find that she is horrified over the deaths on BOTH sides and is no more in favor of suicide bombings than she is of any war related activity. Carol and I don't see eye to eye on the Middle-East but I would never accuse her of being in FAVOR of terrorism. Throughout all her posts has run the common thread that the killing of innocent non-combatants must stop. I agree. The only place we seem to DISAGREE is on how it should be done. Your post shows a surprising lack of knowledge about the wide variety of opinions expressed of this thread AND a real animosity toward anyone who dares to express an opinion that does not support YOUR opinion. Whatever the hell THAT is. So settle back, have a Coke and a smile, and shut up. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: GUEST,macca Date: 08 May 02 - 06:44 AM Troll, spot on... CaroleC, as a guest on this thread who has followed the discussion with interest, I'm stunned that anyone could launch such a violent diatribe at you... or anyone. If any two people fail to agree about something, neither of them have any right to assault the other, either verbally or physically. They both have the same responsibility, and that is to find common ground so that the disagreement does not escalate into more serious conflict. At worst, just keep silent and pray for help. On behalf of the silent majority, my apologies. GUEST, think before you jump. Otherwise somebody else could be jumping on you. Hatred breeds hatred. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 May 02 - 07:40 AM Well, that's one way of making peace between people who have been quarrelling.
Saw the headlines in the paper today, and my heart fell. Sometimes it can be a good feeling to see that you were right in your predictions, but not this time.
"If you're in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: CarolC Date: 08 May 02 - 11:37 AM I just found a very interesting site. It's by a group called Jews for Justice in the Middle East. It looks pretty reputable as far as I can tell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: GUEST,An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Date: 08 May 02 - 12:04 PM Thanks for that helpful reference, Carol, I've bookmarked it for further reading. And troll, good to see you see your recent posts, maybe we're inching towards that meeting of minds. One of the biggest problems of the internet is that anyone can put up any kind of rubbish on a site, and the trash appears to have the same validity as the serious material. The site which Carol refers to has extra legitimacy by virtue of being the product of a group of Jews (whose viewpoint, I suspect, doesn't get much of an airing in the mainstream US printed press), but even their efforts to enlighten the debate can be denigrated by people alleging that they are really either "self-hating Jews" (hard one to refute) or a bunch of Palestinians putting up disinformation. I swallowed the Israeli "Exodus" movie version of the history of the region for years, but only now am I beginning to see the period leading up to and immediately following 1948 as having possibly entailed some measure of so-called "ethnic cleansing". Can anyone recommend a published history from a source which might aspire to objectivity? Books aren't necessarily entirely credible either, but at least the author usually has to convince a publisher to produce them, so there's some degree of quality control which is lacking from the internet. Also I can take a book on holidays and read it on the beach! It was the realisation of the need to explore the history before coming to any understanding of the Northern Ireland problem which triggered a consuming interest in history which has been with me for over thirty years, and now I'm ready to branch into a greater understanding of the Middle East. Seeing the damage which naive, partisan accounts of history can cause, and its importance in many of the world's trouble spots, it seems to me that there is a case for prohibiting the teaching of history to anyone under the age of 16 and making it obligatory for everyone over that age... just a rumination, not a serious suggestion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: CarolC Date: 08 May 02 - 12:15 PM GUEST,An Pluiméir Ceolmhar, you can e-mail the organization that put out the booklet in that site. Maybe they can steer you in the direction of some of the kinds of books you're looking for. Here's their e-mail address... truth@cactus48.com |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: CarolC Date: 08 May 02 - 12:18 PM Also, here's their address in case anyone wants it...
Jews for Justice in The Middle East
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: GUEST,An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Date: 08 May 02 - 12:29 PM Thanks, Carol, I'll follow that up.
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: Wolfgang Date: 08 May 02 - 12:52 PM I have read the chapter about the holocaust and am far from impressed by the 'Jews for Justice in the Middle East' impartialty. Most of it is compiled by selected citations from other sources. I have looked for that organisation on the web and have found nothing at all except a post box address. I could be wrong but to me it looks like a cover name for someone else. From what I have seen so far that organisation could be a single person (of any origin). The many many hits you get for that organisation (I have checked about twenty and then stopped) all seem to go to the same "The origins of the Middle East conflict" web-document. Curious Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 May 02 - 02:16 PM How big that group is is of course an interesting question, but it's not crucial. Maybe its just the two people who give their names, and whose photos are on the site. But it comes across as honest, and I note especially the links given to other Jewish peace groups, such as Not in my name. The section on the Holocaust - well, that doesn't set out to be an account of what happened, it's a collection of quotes, with two brief bits of editorial comment, indicating the basis on which the quote are selected. But there is no way in which this is any kind of Holocaust denial. It is material which can help people in reaching an opinion.
My feeling is that arguing about the past, and whether things could or should have been done differently, is often beside the point. People act as they feel forced to act in the circumstances in which they live, and very often that involves them in doing things which afterwards can be recognised as wrong.
To the extent that studying the past is a way of opening our eyes to the possibility that what we are doing in the present is also wrong, practically or morally, it's important to do so. But using the injustice of the past as a foundation on which to do further injustice to others can never be right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: GUEST,LoopySanchez Date: 08 May 02 - 02:41 PM There are about 140 shooting conflicts going on in the world today. Radical Muslims are involved in 134 of them. Any questions? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 May 02 - 04:17 PM Now that's the kind of free floating totally unbdocumented statistic that means bugger all. How many shooting conflicts are there where Christians are involved?
The point is, there are lots and lots of Muslims around, just as there are lots and lots of Christians.
And presumably that dubious statistic would include the conflicts where it's mostl the Muslims who are under attack, such as the troubles in the former Yugoslavia.
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: DougR Date: 08 May 02 - 05:54 PM Jews for Justice in the Middle East Berkely, California BERKLEY, CALIFORNIA???? Arghhhhhhhh! I'm with Wolfgang! I've never known any group,based in Berkley, California that could be considered even remotely unbiased!! :>) DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 May 02 - 06:03 PM Now that sounds a teeny little bit biassed to me... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: Gareth Date: 08 May 02 - 07:01 PM Hmmmm ! I am in a cynical mood tonite. The all pupose song of Hate and Maryterdom (Sp)
" Not for them a judge and jury,
"Through the little streets of [Insert town of choice], With no appologies to the Barlycorns. Gareth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: CarolC Date: 08 May 02 - 08:45 PM Loopy, on the Palestinian issue, your statement, even if it is correct, is not relevant. Most Palestinians are not radical Muslims. Their objective is simply to have their own self-governing state.
DougR and the rest who don't know if that site can be trusted, I have run across several sites giving the same or similar information. Most of them are by Jewish organizations. Some of the organizations who maintain these sites are rather strict Jewish sects. I chose the one I did because it doesn't represent any one sect. But this group is hardly the only one who is providing information of this sort.
Another resource that would be worthwhile checking out would be the words of the founding fathers of Zionism themselves. Do a google search on Jabotinsky, and read the stuff that he wrote himself.
I like what the Jews for Justice site suggests for people to do about it. They think that by getting real about the history of Israel, the situation there can be healed and both Israel and Palestine can release themselves from this death spiral they're in. And then they can both move forward in cooperation. Kind of like they're doing in South Africa. Personally, I can't imagine why anybody would object to that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: CarolC Date: 08 May 02 - 09:12 PM P.S. re: Jabotinsky - in particular, his piece "The Iron Wall" is worth checking out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: Mr Happy Date: 08 May 02 - 09:59 PM my [perh. simplistic] understanding of the reasons underlying the horrors in palestine/israel is that after ww2 ended the allies? needed somewhere to put displaced persons of the jewish faith who'd been victims of ethnic cleansing by the nazis. after some areas had been assessed for suitability [parts of s.america + australia], they settled on palestine as it's one of the areas mentioned in the bible as being 'the promised land' it doesn't seem to have been taken into consideration that this territory had been lived in [i don't say occupied] by arab people, of predominantly islam faith. but the region had been under occupation by members of the allies? [british] it was therefore less difficult to further disenfranchise a nation/a cultural group/ a religious community who already had been rendered substantially powerless, and introduce yet another alien regime, the 'israelis' don't make a mistake about where i'm coming from, i deplore racism in all its subtle and devious forms. however, it remains that the jewish dps were an embarrassment to the allies? [i'm putting a ? here because i don't believe they were ever friends, but a political compromise- so what's new?]so to light upon a territory where the existing inhabitants would be a pushover was a god?/allah/ send its a fact that the palestine arabs don't/ and haven't had a self determination homeland for over 50 years therefore its no wonder that they felt/feel resentment + bitterness + want to try to do something about it on the other side, the 'israelis' [i put this name in '' because even though they've been occupying this territory fo a long time, it wasn't their land, and for anyone to move into a new area and say its ours without a proper war or negotiation is all wrong] on the other side, the 'israelis' clearly are being murdered by 'terrorists/freedom fighters' and palestinians clearly are being murdered more in return please 'king of the world' whichever person is president of usa do something NOW!! and stop the murder of PEOPLE!! i want to cry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: Mr Happy Date: 08 May 02 - 09:59 PM my [perh. simplistic] understanding of the reasons underlying the horrors in palestine/israel is that after ww2 ended the allies? needed somewhere to put displaced persons of the jewish faith who'd been victims of ethnic cleansing by the nazis. after some areas had been assessed for suitability [parts of s.america + australia], they settled on palestine as it's one of the areas mentioned in the bible as being 'the promised land' it doesn't seem to have been taken into consideration that this territory had been lived in [i don't say occupied] by arab people, of predominantly islam faith. but the region had been under occupation by members of the allies? [british] it was therefore less difficult to further disenfranchise a nation/a cultural group/ a religious community who already had been rendered substantially powerless, and introduce yet another alien regime, the 'israelis' don't make a mistake about where i'm coming from, i deplore racism in all its subtle and devious forms. however, it remains that the jewish dps were an embarrassment to the allies? [i'm putting a ? here because i don't believe they were ever friends, but a political compromise- so what's new?]so to light upon a territory where the existing inhabitants would be a pushover was a god?/allah/ send its a fact that the palestine arabs don't/ and haven't had a self determination homeland for over 50 years therefore its no wonder that they felt/feel resentment + bitterness + want to try to do something about it on the other side, the 'israelis' [i put this name in '' because even though they've been occupying this territory fo a long time, it wasn't their land, and for anyone to move into a new area and say its ours without a proper war or negotiation is all wrong] on the other side, the 'israelis' clearly are being murdered by 'terrorists/freedom fighters' and palestinians clearly are being murdered more in return please 'king of the world' whichever person is president of usa do something NOW!! and stop the murder of PEOPLE!! i want to cry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: CarolC Date: 08 May 02 - 10:06 PM Read my links Happiness. The situation started long before WWII. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: Bobert Date: 08 May 02 - 10:15 PM Happiness, CarolC, et al: Danged ol' hillbilly me has been under siege over at the "Conscription" thread holding down the Peace Alamo. Some of the things you folks are talking about here apply to that thread and viv versa. It's a matter of rising above military thinking to peaceful coexistence thinking, and then maybe actual peace. Right now, it's time for the ref to step in and tell the combabtants to "Break it up" and mean it. The US, which is the World's ref, refuses. King of the World (Bush) could make a few phones calls and get things on track toward resolution but he does not have the courage. His plan: "Well, we'll get around to this this summer sometime". Yeah right?!?!... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: CarolC Date: 08 May 02 - 10:22 PM We can all help. Contact people in the government and the media and let them know that we know the real poop and that they can't fool us any more. Tell them that we want the US to be accountable for our own culpability, and to correct the situation that we helped to create. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: Mr Happy Date: 08 May 02 - 10:24 PM bush is an [asshole! us][arsehole! uk] does he know where palestine is? or what day it is we are the murderers because we allow it to go on , what can we do? i'll make a new thread of this |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: Troll Date: 08 May 02 - 10:47 PM "its a fact that the palestine arabs don't/ and haven't had a self determination homeland for over 50 years therefore its no wonder that they felt/feel resentment + bitterness + want to try to do something about it
on the other side, the 'israelis' [i put this name in '' because even though they've been occupying this territory fo a long time, it wasn't their land, and for anyone to move into a new area and say its ours without a proper war or negotiation is all wrong]" troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: Bobert Date: 08 May 02 - 11:09 PM True enough, troll. But the world has watched decades of Arabs throwing rocks and getting US suppled bullets in return. Our lack of courage to step in has allowed the tensions and escalations of violence on both sides to escalate to a point where now the only way for these people to live within any proximity with one another will probably be a buffer zone (DMZ). Pretty lousy foriegn policy, I'd say. And the bad news? There's more Isreali/Palestinian situations on the planet that the US also thinks will just solve themselves. Yeah, right. Dream on.... Gonna take some different thinking. Real soon, or Hunior is going to find half a dozen little hot wars going on, which ain't gonna play too well to his isolationist foriegn policy... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: Troll Date: 08 May 02 - 11:36 PM We have stopped the Israelis time and again from going in and doing major damage to groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Arafat assumed that this would be the case in the latest round. He was wrong. Sharon didn't listen to the US this time and Arafat wound up a prisoner in his own offices while Sharons IDF cleaned house (note: insensitive choice of words). As I see it, we have two choices. Either let them fight it out, winner take all with the strong chance of a nuclear war, or step in and impose peace, draw lines and say, "This side is yours and this side is yours. If either of you crosses into the others territory, we will blow the offender to kingdom come." And the Cubs will win the World Series. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: Mark Cohen Date: 08 May 02 - 11:45 PM Yeah, Bobert, but it will play real well to all his friends who are making huge piles of money selling arms to all these combatants. And that's the American way. Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: Troll Date: 08 May 02 - 11:54 PM Mark, Mark, Mark. You're to young to be so cynical. Actually, the big gunrunners right now are the countries of the former Soviet Union. Spare parts are a problem though and I don't believe they take MasterCard or Visa. The Chinese dabble in it a bit or so I hear. And, while we do sell weapons systems to whoever has the money, we always stress that the weapons must only be used to promote the fortunes of the Forces of Good. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: Little Hawk Date: 09 May 02 - 12:17 AM The Forces of Good??? Who might they be? - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: Little Hawk Date: 09 May 02 - 12:48 AM And by the way, has anyone noticed that this thread is named Who Are the Terrorists - Part one hundred and eleven???!!! Now that would really be overdoing it a bit... - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: Troll Date: 09 May 02 - 01:32 AM The Forces of Good are our arms customers LH. That's why we are willing to sell them the weapons. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 May 02 - 06:48 AM I can't see how the fact that Palestine hasn't been an independent entity is relevant to anything. There are any number of countries all over the world that weren't independent entities until they won their independence. In fact I get the impression that outside of Europe there are relatively few existing countries with that kind of direct continuity.
How many countries in the Americas were independent countries within before they were established in the last couple of centuries?
What matters is whether the people have a shared history and a shared identity - and there is no doubt that at this time in history the Palestinians have that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: GUEST,mg Date: 09 May 02 - 12:11 PM For a different perspective, that of the Christian Palestinians..Orthodox, Lutheran and others.. here is a web site..they send out periodic emails. It is not essentially political but of course it does go there. www.hcef.org. I think the lack of boundaries is the biggest problem. I don't think there was ever an intent to have boundaries and I think that is unacceptable. I don't know why they weren't imposed by the UN and I don't know why our assistance was not contingent on them. I think there was a hope that the inhabitants would just go away and more land would become available. I think there is probably at least a semi-official policy of harassment and intimidation, keeping in mind that this is a very well trained and armed military that we just shouldn't be hearing about these extensive abuses from..although maybe the people at the checkpoints are not in the main military or whatever..but I think they are...if abuse at the checkpoints was not to be tolerated, it would not happen. So I can only conclude that it is intentional. And I am very sympathetic to checkpoints etc. from a military point of view..I know they are necessary. But the behavior of those checking must be above board. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: Mr Happy Date: 09 May 02 - 06:22 PM troll i did say in the first line of my mail that i had a simplistic view of the reasons underlying the me conflict i've now read all the other mails, and though now i'm better informed, my intention is the same and i don't feel its simplistic,naiive, or unreal to wish for peace you've criticised some obvious bigots/ racists in this thread, but i don't think its very helpful to put down someone so callously when the gist of your own mails seems mostly along the same lines as mine the only positive outcome of your scathing comments to me was to shock me into finding out more about this issue |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 May 02 - 07:06 PM "The only positive outcome of your scathing comments to me was to shock me into finding out more about this issue"
Well, that's rather a good positive outcome, and I imagine the one that troll would have hoped to induce by his comment, which I'd call acerbic or something like that, rather than callous.
The thing is, this is quite a complicated issue. And a high proportion of the people who appear on TV explaining it and who write in the papers telling everyone what's what don't actually seem to know a great deal about it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: DougR Date: 09 May 02 - 08:46 PM Troll: Now you've done it. Mostly I agree with you. I think you present a very balanced, but conservative, view of most things. Now, however, we part company. THE DIAMONDBACKS are going to repeat this year!!! :>) McGrath: good point you made with Happiness I think. Happiness: don't get upset. We are all friends here even though we don't agree on everything. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: Little Hawk Date: 09 May 02 - 09:24 PM Ummmm...WHO are the Diamondbacks??? :-) One man's ignorance is another man's fascination, eh? - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 May 02 - 09:28 PM A colloquial term for Stegasauruses perhaps? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: Troll Date: 09 May 02 - 09:48 PM I THINK that they are some kind of group -a sports team perhaps- who are somehow associated with that section of the nation where Doug lives and he feels that they will " repeat this year!!! " I'm not quite sure what he means but I suppose we should humor him along. Doug, OH YEAH!!!? SEZ YOU!!! Happiness, don't take it to heart. You took the larger step and checked some things out on your own. If I had patiently fed you links and spooned information to you, you would learn only what I wanted you to. Now you can do your own research and make up your own mind. You may actually turn out to be a worthwhile contributor. One thing though; don't believe ANYTHING that anyone says here (even me!) until you have checked it out yourself and preferably from several sources. People DO slant their data on ocassion. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: DougR Date: 09 May 02 - 11:57 PM Not me! The Diamondbacks are going to win the World Series ...AGAIN! DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: Troll Date: 10 May 02 - 12:49 AM That's entirely possible. Hell, even a blind pig will find an acorn if he roots long enough. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: Mark Cohen Date: 10 May 02 - 01:30 AM Yes, but a diamondback is a snake, not a pig. And that should tell you something. (I'll let you know when I figure out what it is.) Besides, I have a warm spot in my heart for the Red Sox this year, if only to wonder how they will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory THIS time! But what do I know...I grew up a Phillies fan! I also find it somewhat amusing that most of the people who are shouting so loudly about the need to give back stolen land are themselves reaping the benefits of living on stolen land. Oh, well, perspective is relative, isn't it? In the words of the late Shel Silverstein (which I once put to music--to make this a musical thread!): Thanksgiving dinner's sad and thankless Christmas dinner's dark and blue When you stop and try to see it From the turkey's point of view Sunday dinner isn't sunny Easter feasts are just bad luck When you see it from the viewpoint Of a chicken or a duck Oh how I once loved tuna salad Pork and lobster, lamb chops too Till I stopped and looked at dinner From the dinner's point of view Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: CarolC Date: 10 May 02 - 02:08 AM I also find it somewhat amusing that most of the people who are shouting so loudly about the need to give back stolen land are themselves reaping the benefits of living on stolen land.
It's a hell of a thing, isn't it Mark? Maybe that's why the US supports Israel so strongly. We see so much of ourselves in the Israelis. And our history isn't so very different than theirs is it?
And yet we have a cult of independence here in the US in which we immortalize our patriots who coined phrases such as "Give me liberty or give me death". Maybe we're not so different from the suicide bombers either.
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: CarolC Date: 10 May 02 - 04:48 AM It has been pointed out to me that my last sentence could be construed as including the 9/11 suicide hijackers. I was not including the 9/11 hijackers in that statement. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 May 02 - 08:12 AM From outside it does seem very much as if many Americans do seem to see what's going on in the Holy Land as analogous to what happened in the conquest and settlement of your own country.
Which is accurate enough. In terms of the injustice done to the native population, and of what is now called "ethnic cleansing", there are real analogies.
But all of us have things like that in our past. Probably all of us, if you go back far enough. They can't be undone retrospectively.
So it's right for people to feel "We've done things as bad as them and worse, and we are living on the proceeds", and recognisingh this should stop us pretending we have clean hands. But to jump from "We've done things like that" to "And therefore, it's all right for other people to do them" is a jump too far.
It's as if, when the British gave up slavery, this should have meant that they had no right or duty to try to stop the slave trade by ships from other countries. If anything the reverse is true - the country which had built up the slave trade had a special duty to try to stop it.
In the same way countries which have driven out native populations and settled their lands have had a major part to play in teaching others to do the same, and they have a particular responsibility for helping to bring an end to this shameful,period in human history. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: Little Hawk Date: 10 May 02 - 08:28 AM Regarding the Diamondbacks...of course they will repeat! What sports team doesn't repeat (do something indistinguishable from what it has done on any given occasion in the past)? Take football, for example: all get up, all crash into each other, all fall down, all get up again...over and over and over... That's repetition. And, man, is it TEDIOUS to watch! :-) The same thing is happening in the Middle East, although with far more serious consequences, unfortunately... - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 May 02 - 08:49 AM You should try watching the kinds of football where they use a round ball, Little Hawk. A bit more subtlety is involved. (Repetitive subtlety maybe, but then you can sayb that of music.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: Troll Date: 10 May 02 - 10:33 AM Yeah, LH but football only runs for about six months. The Middle-East goes on and on. One would wish that the fans of your "round-ball football" (Soccer, Foosball et.al.?)exercised a little subtlety, Kevin. Maybe there wouldn't be so many country pubs with signs that say "No Football Coaches". N.B. for Americans; a "Coach" is a bus, not a teams strategic director. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Who Are the Terrorists? Part 111 From: GUEST,Akala Date: 10 May 02 - 10:54 AM Until CarolC and her ilk give their homes back to the Native Americans, compensate them for more than 500 years of expolitation and genocide, and go back to where they or their ancestors came from, they they should shut their ignorant mouths. |