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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 04 Sep 01 - 02:40 PM Thanks for sharing your story of Canwell and the Jameses. I am glad that some good came out of that nightmare for you. Burton and Florence sound like very inspiring individuals. Heroes, I guess you can say. |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Sandy Paton Date: 04 Sep 01 - 04:13 PM A curious side light: Joe Butterworth, ancient, bent, clearly not in the best of health, was a Chaucerian scholar at the University of Washington. He was called before the Canwell Committee and, while he admitted quite freely in other places that, yes, he was a member of the Communist Party, he refused to answer the questions put to him by the Committee. Mind you, this was before "taking the Fifth" became the standard (and safe) response to such questioning. Old Joe Butterworth, in his somewhat tremulous old voice, told the Committee "You cannot force this body to testify against itself!" As it turned out, he was the only one of the uncooperative witness that was NOT charged with contempt after the hearings were concluded. Significant? I've always wondered if the lawyers who represented other victims of such legislative harassment did not study the transcripts of the Canwell hearings and say to themselves, "Eureka! This old goat has stumbled on the right reply! The refuge for our clients is in the FIfth Amendment, not the First!" Let me also point out the Pete Seeger, knowing he was risking his freedom, did NOT "take the Fifth." He stood up for the rights of all Americans to their guaranteed freedom of speech and association and declared that the FIRST Amendment assured him of such rights. With that courageous stance, he won my everlasting admiration. And Pete still earns it every day of his life! Sandy |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Deckman Date: 04 Sep 01 - 04:49 PM Does anyone remember the song that Pete Seeger sang before the committee? |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Don Firth Date: 04 Sep 01 - 09:33 PM [Yeah, Bob, I think it was Wasn't That a Time?] Bob (Deckman) Nelson and I have talked some about this, and I knew he'd been hassled a bit by the FBI. But I didn't know until I read his post above, that he, too, had been approached and offered the traditional thirty pieces of silver. During most of 1955 and 1956, I was away from Seattle. I was in Denver undergoing physical therapy. I'd had polio when I was two years old, and I was trying to improve my health and strength and, as much as possible, alleviate some of polio's aftereffects. With little to do in my spare time, I practiced the guitar and learned songs diligently and sang frequently around the hospital. I developed a lot as a performer during this time, because other than physical therapy, I had little else to do. I also considered various ways the Pacific Northwest Folklore Society could be resurrected after its ignominious demise in 1954 (described above) or a new but similar organization formed—one that was dedicated strictly to researching and collecting folk material in the Pacific Northwest and sponsoring concerts by local and national performers (as had been our original intention) while avoiding if at all possible any political implications or entanglements. I wasn't sure that the spirit of the times would ever allow that to happen, but I wanted to at least consider the possibility. I corresponded with several people in Seattle about what I thought we should try to do, and shortly after I returned to Seattle, there was an open meeting, complete with songfest, called together by one of the people I'd been writing to. I knew several people who came to the meeting, but there was also a whole bunch of people I had never met before. The group had grown while I was gone. We sang a lot, and discussed the formation of a new organization. Other than talking about it, nothing was actually done that evening. We planned to get together later and do some serious organizing. Another clip from the "memoir" :—
About a week later, I received a telephone call from a man who said that he wanted to drop by my house for a chat. He said he would explain what it was about when he got there. Next time I get together with Bob, just out of curiosity, I'd like to compare physical descriptions of the fellows we talked to. I'll bet it was the same person. Even after forty-five years, I still remember the man's name. Back then I knew a few people who said they were communists, but I doubt that they were card-carrying members of the party. Most of them hung out at the Blue Moon Tavern and plotted revolution until either the beer money ran out or they slid under the table. None of them were folk singers and none were really capable of walking more the ten steps without stumbling over their own feet. They hardly constituted a threat to the government. Was I afraid of them? Should anybody be? God, no! I decided that I would not get involved in any organizing. Even though The Powers that Be seemed to regard me as a sufficiently "loyal American" to make that kind of request of me, at the very least they had their eye on me, and all I could do by getting involved in a new folk music society would be to jeopardize it. Yet, if I didn't accede to their request, somebody else might! For a long time after my conversations with the man in the dark gray suit, I eyed with suspicion any new person who showed up on the folk music scene. I was pretty sure of my friends, but . . . well, you just never know, do you? I decided somewhere along the line that government-induced paranoia was no way to live. I decided that I would trust my friends. I decided to consider any new person I met a potential friend unless they proved otherwise. I decided that I didn't give a diddly-squat what a person's political opinions were; they had a right to believe whatever they wanted to believe. I might argue with them, but that was between them and me, and not the business of any bloody bureaucrat or politician. What did I learn from all this? Quite a lot. But one thing for sure: I learned to trust my government. About that —>||<— far!! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Don Firth Date: 04 Sep 01 - 09:44 PM Sorry. I neglected to stick in a couple of separators so it would be easier to tell the memoir quote from the newly written stuff. The first separator should go after Another clip from the "memoir" :—, and the second just before Next time I get together with Bob. . . .. The memoir quote is in single-spaced, indented paragraphs. Don Firth
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Deckman Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:38 PM Hi Don ... Yeh, facinating! It amazes me that we have never had this conversation in person ... at least not as complete as we've both posted. Again, the "temper of the times." I'd like to remind you of a very close mutual friend who arrived on the scene about 1957 ... big fellow, laid back ... a jewell ... sang some Idaho songs! When he first arrived, he was percieved by the folksingers on the street as the "FBI spy." He went through HELL getting accepted into the gang. To this day he complains about the CRAP he had to put up with to get accepted! More Later. Thanks for the post, Bob |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: catspaw49 Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:53 PM Just to let you old farts know that once again we 50 types are enjoying this immensely. The first thing I ever looked up on the internet was Seeger's testimony. Great stuff group... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Sourdough Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:58 PM I, too, have known a number of people whom reactionary types labeled as somehow being subversive. One was a Hollywood writer, who was one of The Ten. He had been, to use that wonderfully inventive phrase, "prematurely anti-fascinst". THat meant that he had gone to Spain with the Lincoln Brigade and risked his life fighting against the German supported Fascists. Another one was Julian Beck, actually I would have to include Judith Malina, his wife, too. They ran a repertory company in New York, The Living Theatre. The plays they put on included some by Brecht. The Becks were very concerned about issues of social justice, just as the writer had been. THey were innocents, too. Julian once asked me in all seriousness why the Phoenix Repertory Company could get major grants from the Ford Foundation and The Living Theatre was ignored. He didn't see any connection between that and his very public stance on almost every issue relating to social justice. There were classmates of mine at an Ivy League school who refused to be part of The Quiet Generation and were protesting issues relating to one man - one vote, the evils of segregation at a time when most of white America didn't realize that there might be a problem. There was a lovely couple in New Hampshire that ran a kind of resort for Socialists. It was a wonderful place with lots of music, square dancing and most of all, people who seemed to me to unusally kind and considerate to each other. All they wanted was that the people of the world treat each other the same way. Some of these people were literally driven out of the country, some were forced to appear in front of Congressional Committees and lived with a fear of what price their families might have to pay for their convictions. Looking back, what I remember about all of them is how different they were. Some were intellectuals who had thought deeply about the issues involved in social justice. Others, though, had a very simplistic view - the US in the Constitution and its ammendments made promises to its citizens. These people took those promises seriously. Rather than being against the Consitution and working to subvert it, the irony was that they were in trouble because they believed in it. I suppose that there really were people who actually wanted to overthrow the US government but I never met any. When this period started, I was too young to have any real perspective and when I found out that Herb Philbrick (who wrote "I led THree Lives", the book that was turned into a hit televisions series about his expereince penetrating the Communist organization) I was proud that our town had Philbrick' Fish Market, run by his uncle and aunt. When it was revealed that Claire Foster, a next door neighbor, had been a "secret agent" for the FBI, I was proud to know her. Only a few years later, I was wondering where in Nashua New Hampshire were there Communist cells advocating the forceful overthrow of the US government. The people she fingered were, and I choose these words carefully, the simple, sweet people who thought that there were injustices that ought to be faced. As near as I can tell, none of the people I knew who were caught up in the repression of the 50s went seeking notoriety. It was thrust on them and they simply found that they cold not back away from their principles just because those principles were being willfully misunderstood in order to advance other agendas. What they got in return for their principles was bewilderment at the vehemence of the response and fear for the future of themselves and their families. I hope that if and when I am ever called to face my own crisis of conscience, I will have learned something from the actions of people whose lives provide an example of how to act until reason returns. Sourdough |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Deckman Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:23 PM Sourdough ... again, my apologies. I haven't had time to do my homework. But you are hitting the issues that I feel so strongly. Wouldn't it be a SHAME if us "old ones" that lived and participated during those times died without documenting our issues and making it relevent today. That is why I started this thread. CHEERS, Bob Nelson |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Don Firth Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:55 AM "I Led Three Lives." I never read the book, nor did I ever see the TV program, but after the program had been out for awhile, I did see a cartoon:-- Four or five people sitting in a room illuminated by a candle in a wax-encrusted Chianti bottle setting on the table. One of them says to the others, "How come every time Herb Philbrick comes to a meeting, a whole bunch of us get arrested?" |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Deckman Date: 05 Sep 01 - 11:04 AM Well folks, you sure have given me a lot of reading! I'm VERY impressed with the comments that have posted on this thread. It obviously is a question that still evokes much feeling, and that's as it should be. Those times were mind boggeling to me, in retrospect. I enjoyed "Toadfrogs" comments ... "I sang the reddist songs I could find." Yes, (we) did too. "Harry Polock" was one. "Banks of Marble" another. I remember we often resorted to Wobblie songs, not out of true working mans sentiments, but just because they sounded rebelious. I'd love to hear Bruce Phillips (Utah Phillips) comments on that. I thing that Kendal, and others (Don Firth) makes a very good point: "I have not trusted anything my leaders have told me." That point is one of the strongest heritages, I think, to the era. A very strong disstrust of our government. It certainly is true for me. Another heritage I feel keenly today is a sensitivity to unfairness when I see it in society. I ran into it just a couple of weeks ago when a family member e-mailed me some information that I thought was blatant racism and religious intolerance. And, my 1950's and 60's experiences with racial issues taught me much. Yes, I was also called a "nigger lover." And yet, I also felt the strong ostracism being the only member of the theater group. Years later, I was also the only white person living in an all black YMCA in Indiannapolis Indiana. I was there for three months of schooling. Another lasting effect of my growing up in those times and experiencing as much as I could, today results in something that I would call a sense of courage, for lack of a better term. As a teenager, I learned, often by example, NOT to turn away from tough issues. Take a stand. Be counted. Speak up. And I'm still the same way today ... just ask my neighbors! Enough for now, I've 'gotta go build a deck! (next time I pose a question, I think I'll ask something controversial hee hee). CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Deckman Date: 05 Sep 01 - 08:29 PM Today, I often wonder whatever happened to several of those old friends and fellow singers I knew in the 1950's. I'm referring to the ones that I now know were communists ... and there were several. I never thought they were a threat. Hell, they couldn't even tune their guitars! When I was a teenager, hanging around these folks and trying to steal (collect) their songs, some of the parents on the scene were died in the wool communists. I learned to spot them quickly: they were skinny, underfed, wore poor clothes, but they ALWAYS asked interesting and thought provoking questions. Some years ago, when I first encountered a tee shirt that said, "question authority", I wondered what communist had written that? The communists I met were like burrs under the saddle, always hungry and asking probing questions. This leads me to another whole subject, the JOHN BIRCH SOCIETY. This bunch was an obvious result of the McCarthy period. (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction). It reflected the temper of the times. In 1960, I was hoodwinked into attending a JOHN BIRCH SOCIETY cell meeting. Once the meeting was underway, and I realized what I was in for, I tried to leave. Six thugs guarded the doors so no one could escape. I was told to sit down and shut up. I grabbed a folding metal chair and went for the thug blocking the door closest to me. He backed down. I left and six other guys were behind me. It was then that I knew that THESE folks, not the communists, were the threat. I still laugh when I remember that the purpose of that meeting was to organize the upcoming war games ... where we were to play Army and practice defending the summit of Snoqualimie Pass from the upcoming communist invasion. (being born in Yakima, Eastern Washington, I couldn't understand why the communists would want it in the first place). Enough for now. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Metchosin Date: 05 Sep 01 - 09:55 PM This has been, by far, one of the more interesting threads on Mudcat in months. Thank you people, for your first hand recollections and information.
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Sandy Paton Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:15 PM Some forty-odd years later, one can look back and even be slightly bemused. At my first University of Chicago Folk Festival (was it 1960, Art?), I recall observing from the stage that "no one has sung a protest song yet!" So I gave them one I'd learned from Ewan MacColl during the year my wife and I had spent in England -- I sang "Four Pence a Day." Not exactly one of your "let's join together and overthrow it!" bombshells, but a protest song for all of that. About a year later, I met a chap who lived at the end of the block where we were staying. A civilian by then, he told me that he had been in the Army the year before, assigned to Intelligence (favorite oxymoron - Army Intelligence!), and had been sent to cover (undercover) the folk festival. He had dutifully reported, he told me, that I was the only one to sing a protest song. I've never asked for my FBI files under the Freesom of Information Act, but I can see it now: suspicious character sings 19th century lead miner's protest song! Clearly, an attempt to stir up anti-management feelings amongst the academic rabble in Chicago. But the John Birch Society and their organized "Minute Men" were a good bit more intimidating. Perhaps I'll get time tomorrow to add a story about crossing swords with a local chapter of these fellows. But that came later. Sandy |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Deckman Date: 05 Sep 01 - 10:51 PM Sandy ... your last posting reminded me of my most current contact with the FBI ... TRUE STORY! About six years ago, and I don't remember why, I decided that I should send for my FBI file, requesting it under the freedom of information act that you refer to. WELL ... let me tell you ... what an adventure. I called the Seattle FBI office, left a message with my request. Three weeks later I received a form, which I dutifully filled out. I mailed it to San Francisco (it's still in California but the FBI is working on changing that). Nine weeks later I received the same form, origainal request, this time from Virginia, asking me to start all over again. So I did. Months later, I received a request, again from Virgina, demanding a notarized statement that I am me! I jumped through this hoop. Months later, I received a request for $19, proccessing fee. At this point I said something that sounded a lot like phooey, and gave up. Besides, it was my honeymoon weekend with beautiful bride Judy (but that's another thread). I swear that, this Winter, I'm going to start the request all over again. We are remodeling out home, and we need wallpaper for the bathroom! CHEERS, Bob |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Deckman Date: 05 Sep 01 - 11:02 PM I just had a goofy thought! (one of several actually). Wouldn't it be a kick, if all of us old timers (pretty gentle term ... eh?) could somehow manage to get together, in the same room, on a Saturday night, with a jug of cheap red wine, a bunch of guitars, and tell lies all night! MAN ... THE SONGS WE'D SING ... YIPPEEEE! |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Deckman Date: 06 Sep 01 - 12:19 AM I don't know about you folks ... but I'm JUST gettin' warmed up! CHEERS, Bob |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: katlaughing Date: 06 Sep 01 - 02:47 AM This is fantastic and I haven't even begun to absorb it all. Thank you all so very much for sharing and to you, Deckman (Roope) for staring this thread. This should be a Mudcat Classic designated thread! luvyakat |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: GUEST,ellenpoly Date: 06 Sep 01 - 06:23 AM Wow!!! Hey Deckman,ya should have warned me! Amazing stuff here,people.I would wish for you a larger readership.This is important stuff. |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Kim C Date: 06 Sep 01 - 01:04 PM This all happened before I was born and I know very little about it. My question has always been, though: in America, a supposedly free society, doesn't an individual have a right to belong to whatever political party he/she chooses? And then, isn't it unConstitutional (or just plain wrong) to make someone testify under duress? With what little I know, I have always been of the opinion that the UnAmerican Activities Committee was itself UnAmerican. On another note, I heard a little blurb on NPR last week (on one of the game shows) about J. Edgar Hoover getting all cheesed off at MAD Magazine, and sending the FBI after them, because they were poking fun at him. I said to Mister, isn't that against the First Amendment? Doesn't MAD Magazine have a constitutional right to poke fun at J. Edgar Hoover withou reproach? Isn't that what freedom of the press is? Mister said to me, well, that's the difference between a patriot and a zealot. |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Deckman Date: 06 Sep 01 - 01:17 PM Kim, very good questions/comments. Of course it was just plain wrong and unfair to try to force folks to testify. But try they did and succeeded often. In addition, they skirted the law by outlawing the Communist party in America. Your questions were what drove me during the time: how can they do this? It isn't right? It isn't fair. It isn't legal. By the way, I like your husbands' (I assume) name. And his comments were right on! |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: ard mhacha Date: 06 Sep 01 - 02:57 PM Living history, best thread I have seen on Mudcat. Sourdough, Paul Robeson was held in high esteem in the north of Ireland. We admired his courageous stand and also the others who stood against the scum, and deep shame on those who stood by and did nothing while good men were hounded out of their professions and also their country. Slan Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Kim C Date: 06 Sep 01 - 03:32 PM Yep, Mister be my husband. As in "she called her husband Mister." ;-) Isn't it wrong to outlaw a political party in the United States? |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Sandy Paton Date: 06 Sep 01 - 03:35 PM The Committee's argument ran: "This is an investigative hearing, not a court of law, therefore we do not have to allow such niceties as cross-examination or the introduction of defense character witnesses." The fact that people could, and many did, go to prison for "contempt of Congress (or the State Legislature, in the case of the Canwell Committee) because they refused to answer questions under these circumstances, made no difference to the inquisitors. For folks whose political beliefs or social attitudes differed from those in power, those were perilous times. It is hardly surprising that some were unable to stand up against that sort of intimidation and knuckled under, naming names of those they thought had been Communists, or at least "fellow travelers" back in the 30s and 40s. They feared not only prison, but also the blacklist that could cost them their careers in the entertainment business. The blacklist was not an official government agency or activity. It was privately maintained by a group of fanatic right-wing "patriots" who would get in touch with advertisers and warn them of boycotts of their products if they sponsored shows that employed artists whom they suspected were communists or communist sympathizers. That cost a lot of people their jobs in radio and television. Producers and advertising agencies were totally intimidated. But it was not only happening in the entertainment world. Professor Joe Butterworth, Chaucerian scholar fired by the University of Washington, wrote to 2000 members of the Modern Language Association, looking for a job. Qualified Middle English teachers were then in demand, but no one offered to hire him. He did odd jobs until his savings ran out, and finally went on public assistance, a broken man. Sandy
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Jim the Bart Date: 06 Sep 01 - 10:13 PM I thoroughly enjoyed the McCarthy/HUAC era discussion. But I'd hate for anyone to think that this was nothing more than an enlightening bull session about "the bad old days". Although McCarthy was (in most minds) discredited, his tactics have become commonplace. McCarthy really wasn't interested in stopping communism; as I believe Kendall pointed out, his real interest was in getting re-elected. He found that flinging the label "communist" at people gave him stature that he didn't have to earn. He never had to prove anything - all he had to do was accuse and insinuate and public fear (and the press' need for a story) did the rest. In the end his ego pushed him to go too far, but the lesson of his brief celebrity was well-noted (young Dick Nixon, for one was paying close attention). Now we don't have an election without a Willie Horton, or a nomination without some special interest litmus test. Any label(s) that can be attached to an individual to distract public attention from the merits of his/her arguments are put to use - and the more the merrier. Anything to avoid a real discussion of the issues. We even see it here at the Mudcat, on a certain level, when someone chooses to focus on the "Guest" monicker, rather than to address the argument presented. Anywhere that you see someone name calling and labeling an opponent you see part of the legacy of "Tail Gunner Joe". I would like to think that McCarthy was bound to fail because he was a fraud; but the truth is that it took some pretty courageous individuals to stop him. That he succeeded for as long as he did, should continue to scare the hell out of all of us. |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Deckman Date: 06 Sep 01 - 11:44 PM Bartholomew ... I couldn't agree more. I still remember clearly the division I saw in my own house and neighborhood as the hearings were broadcast. It hindsight, it's hard to believe that it all happened ... but it did. I think we are just as vulnerable today as then. And yes, Tricky Dick Nixon learned well. And today we have many others like his ilk just waiting for the chance to start it all over again. Maybe next it will be the religious right ... who knows. Bob Nelson |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: SINSULL Date: 07 Sep 01 - 11:39 PM I naively thought that Watergate was the cause of the nation's distrust of government and politicians! I was too young to remember the hearings but do remember vague negative references to McCarthy with a kind of whispered undercurrent of "You don't want to say that too loudly". Many years later, my mother and I went to see "The Way We Were" - Streisand/ Redford. I was bored to tears. She, in a hushed voice after the movie, said "Don't you understand what the blacklist was?" She shocked me. Dad was from "The only good communist is a dead communist" school. Mom apparently hadn't agreed. Sandy, Don, Deckman, et al: once again you have created a classic Mudcat thread. No post can be too long. No stray thoughts or remembrances will be too much. I have read every word and intend to read it all again. Thanks, Mary |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Deckman Date: 08 Sep 01 - 12:09 AM Mary, I didn't intend to post again, but I have been talking off line with several of the more active participants to this thread. One asked me if I thought it was relevent to continue this thread. I said "yes," meaning that the lessons I learned in the 1950's have served me all my life. I do think there is a continum (sp?) from those early days of injustice, through the days of the civil rights struggles, through the Vietnam period, into today ... Friday, September 7th, 2001. I am a product of my times and my experiences ... we all are. If we don't learn from our past experiences, what are we ... STUPID! Thanks for your participation and interest. |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Amos Date: 08 Sep 01 - 12:36 AM I was too much a child during the era of HUAC to understand what I was watching; but I understood the outrage and disdain my mother would throw at the little balck and white screen on which balding Joe McCarthy was prancing around. She called him six kinds of insufferable bastard. I think the point about labels is an important one. For example there were at least two major meanings to the word Communist in the period between the 30's and the 50's -- actually there were a dozen. But one distinction that has to be made is the difference betweent he philosophical notion of communism (the philosophy of communal interst) and the political activities of the international communist party. there were an awful lot of intellectuals, liberals and artists drawn to the "subject" of communism philosophically, and some of them called themselves socialists and some of them called themselves anarchists, and some called themselves Bolshevik sympathizers, and it was a grand old bunch of malarkey about how societies should be organized for best benefit. The other side of the line was the effort to organize political action groups, labor strikes, and various other overt and covert actions. That gradually became "the enemy" of the American government as its dynamics gravitated to the support of Moscow and the USSR. Obviously these groupings intersect, and there were lots of shades of gray in between as well. But it was always clear to me that the philosophical liberals of the Thirties were a long, long way from Kruschev's shoe-pounding pronunciamento, "We will bury you!". I guess all those witnesses should have asked for defintions of the word "communist". Maybe they did. Regards, A. |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: ard mhacha Date: 08 Sep 01 - 07:37 AM Deckman, Don`t stop now, this is rivetting, it has to be told., Slan Ard Mhacha. |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: John Hardly Date: 08 Sep 01 - 09:28 AM Amos, The points you make above are what I started the other thread about (KimC's cold war question). We demonize everything to do with the McCarthy side of the era because we have canonized everybody on the American "socialist/communist" side in that era. Nothing added longevity to an OK musical career such as Seeger's as much as his martyrdom at the hands of political zealots. Without this martyrdom, we'd be having threads about his career like the one we had a few months ago about who could or couldn't tolerate the Kingston Trio. "...Obviously these groupings intersect, and there were lots of shades of gray in between as well. But it was always clear to me that the philosophical liberals of the Thirties were a long, long way from Kruschev's shoe-pounding pronunciamento, "We will bury you!"." --Amos That's not clear to me. I don't think they were, and when I read the POVs of most of the mudcat, I don't think they are. That's fine insofar as it's (still) a free country. |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: SINSULL Date: 08 Sep 01 - 10:42 AM Another memory was triggered by this thread. In Catholic Grade School, my teacher, a nun, started a discussion on Communism and drew the expected horror, fear,etc. from her class of third graders. She then asked "How many of you know any Communists?" Again - horror. She then quietly stated that she and all the other nuns living in the local convent were practicing pure Communism. No personal property, shared tasks, all working for the common good, all guaranteed to be cared for by the group, etc. She was thinkiing and wanted us to think. I wonder what Reverend Mother would have thought if she knew. |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Amos Date: 08 Sep 01 - 11:00 AM Well, there ya go -- redefinition of terms by waves of political foofara. As with all theories, communism the philosophy and Communism the revolutionary force-fed fascist implementation are two very different kettles of fish. It is of course popular to say and write that the failure of the USSR's economy proved the flaws in the theory, and not differentiate between the very weird brand of communism that arose from the turmoil of Stalin's era, and other kinds, such as the good sister's mentioned above. The one thing that the fall of the USSR does prove, it seems to me, is that individual excellence and personal gain is a powerful social ioncentive, and just eliminating it for the good of all is a really stupid idea. When strong people who operate freely are also socially compassionate, balanced solutions evolve. When those solutions are predictaed instead on draining the best of the able for the support of the less able, serious problems occur. For example, the USSR was masterful at intimidating people and suppressing their communications. The practices are not part of any theoretical communism, but they sure were part of the Bear's version! It will be intersting to compare the degrees of socialism and individual intiative in Russia and the United States in another 10 years as it seems to me they ar eboth muiigrating toward some fuzzy center that combines parts of both theories. A |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Peg Date: 08 Sep 01 - 11:45 AM I did an interview for the Boston Film Festival yesterday: cast, director and writer of a controversial film (L.I.E., which I highly recommend) with an undeserved NC-17 rating (there is no explicit sexual activity in the film) which depicts teenage homosexuality and portrays a known pedophile as a sympathetic character on some level (amazing performance by Scottish actor Brian Cox). The screenwriter is an ex-cop, non-Hollywood type. We were discussing the whys and hows of the NC-17 rating and this writer mentioned McCarthyism. He referred to the good senator as a "reprehensible drunk," and said having grown up in the eras of McCarthyism and the Civil Rights era, he thinks earlier witch hunts against blacks and Commies has been replaced by the same witch hunts against male homosexuals (think of Seantor Jesse Helms). Mr. Cox said this sort of prejudice is "an American disease" and went on to say that if the same sort of behavior were portrayed in heterosexual terms (in other words, a grown man seducing a willing, if underaged, girl) it would more than likely be glorified and would have received a less restrictive rating; he also said "your country puts guys who practice that sort of thing with young women on stamps!" referring of course to Elvis Presley and 14 year old Priscilla...we also discussed the rather disingenuous notion that somehow male homosexuals are thought to be incapable of any sort of restraint (hence the fear at having them in our schools or military units) but that known sexual predators of the heterosexual variety are accepted and vaunted as "playboys" or "womanizers" or "studs" or other similar euphemisms. It was a fascinating discussion about some very controversial matters in this film (adolescent sexuality, pedophilia, etc.) and the main point that stayed with me is that in our society everyone seems to have the need to demonize some group above all others; but that interestingly enough, one's own personal beliefs and prejudices and fears affect WHICH group that is...whethwe it is women, blacks, jews, Asians, gays, pagans, Christians, Muslims, liberals or Republicans...
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Guy Wolff Date: 08 Sep 01 - 06:34 PM Hello All, I was one of thoughs born in 1950. There seem to be a few of us around!!! WHat I do remember is the passion , anger, and outrage Arther Miller had while talking of his time before the commity.I remember that from 1955 56 / 60. The Calder family had a wonderful chrismas party every Chrismas Eve and it was a time of celabration but also for clearing the air on wounds taken in the defence of Liberalisum.I guess everyone knows the Crusable was Miller's venting from the insanity of Mcarthy but it is even more meaningful with the memory of fear I still see in his face discribing the night mare . THe memory of that kind of fear stays with a small kid when he sees a funny ,kind man look realy scared. I hope the Crusable helped him.. All the best , GUy<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>><>><><><> |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: GUEST,Ironmule Date: 09 Sep 01 - 01:20 AM As one born in '45, the residuals of the McCarthy era were definitely a part of my upbringing. My senior year of high school found me trying to pass a required course in "Americanism VS Communism" in the Florida school system. To put some flavor to the era, this was just months after the "Cuban Missle Crisis" where we were scarily close to nuclear war. With 40yrs of hind sight, I see myself then as just about as brainwashed as a Russian kid. The whole era had many crimes committed by those who thought in absolute, black and white, patterns. One of the things I like about the media these days, is the clear evidence that every day is a "Slow News Day" by the standards I grew up with. There aren't nearly the number of atrocities being committed these days by "Our Good Guys" against "Their Bad Guys". JWSmith |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Deckman Date: 09 Sep 01 - 01:42 AM Hello "ironmule" ... good grief ... who thinks up these names? Your point is a biggie! I appreciate your comments. The role of the media and the "slow news days" have a LOT to do with this issue. How do you defuse flammers? ... ignore them. Did we ignore Sen Joe McCarthy ... of course not... he helped sell newspapers ... and helped get politician re-elected. CHEERS, Bob Nelson |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: chazkratz Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:40 AM I ran across this thread this afternoon when i was doing a few lyric searches on the DT, several of them successful, but one--for "Pass Me Not O Blessed Savior"--unsuccessful, but it led me to "Palace of the Czar (Shootin' with Rasputin)," a title I had to check out. The song ends with a reference to the House Committee on UnAmerican Activities, and so is linked to a few other threads that touch the subject of HUAC (or as they insisted on being called, HCUA, for obvious reasons), and I finally came to this one, the kind of thread that fostered the Mudcat Jones that strung me out for four or five years. Back in the day, as they say, there were no links to threads from the songs in the DT--what a great addition to the service. I can easily see getting hooked all over again. Maybe it will help me break free of my current computer Joneses, jigsaw puzzles and Super Collapse. One of the other threads, about music in response to HUAC, reminded me of this song which I think is in a book I have, __Outrateous Songs__ or something like that: H-U-A-C H-U-A-C What a lucky thing it is for you and me Our security is guarded by politically retarded Men of unimpeachable integrity That's the chorus. If I can find the book, I'll add some verses. --seed |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: kendall Date: 18 Apr 05 - 06:44 AM I remember it well. Anyone who saw McCarthy on TV saw right through him. Shallow, egotistical self serving drunk. His own party got fed up with his antics. Our own Senator Margaret Chase Smith, republican of Maine read him the riot act, and she showed more balls than many other cowardly ass covering do nothings in the Senate. |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Amos Date: 18 Apr 05 - 08:16 AM BSeed, Wonderful to see your name on the threads again!! Come back often, you long-lost prodigal whatever! A |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: GUEST,Joe_F Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:38 PM I was in high school then -- a leftish private school. I read the papers. My impression is that McCarthyism was an opportunistic infection that ran its course. Here are the peculiarities of the '50s that seem to me to have contributed to its temporary success. (I should perhaps warn you that I am a dissenter from the religion in which blaming the victim is taboo.) 1. Moral cowardice had something of the status of a cult. It was widely identified with maturity & mental health. In some quarters it was taken for granted that true dissent was impossible: people who claimed to be thinking for themselves were actually only conforming to a deviant & therefore wicked subculture, or had merely inverted the majority's value system and perversely opposed whatever the majority approved of. 2. Many respectable liberals had been demoralized by the castastrophe of their identification with the Soviet Union. 3. Many respectable conservatives who despised McCarthy nevertheless gave first priority to fighting Communism, thought that for that purpose the masses of Americans had to be scared the hell out of, and thought that McCarthy would be useful for that purpose & could be got rid of when it was accomplished. In that respect they resembled the German conservatives who thought they could use Hitler -- with the important difference that the Americans were right & the Germans were wrong. Americans, despite much trying, have always found it impossible to come up with world-class sons of bitches. McCarthy was our attempt at a paranoid politician -- our answer to Stalin! But he wasn't serious. (As to his antiCommunism, it is well known that he was elected, the first time, with Communist support.) He did not crave power, only attention. So it was easy to cut him enough slack so that he would make a fool of himself. Once that had happened, it took only the coughs of a couple of stuffed shirts to make him dry up & blow away. --- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: Sometimes I think I am happier than I think I am. :|| |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Dave Swan Date: 18 Apr 05 - 11:02 PM Seed! Call me. Check your PM's. Dave |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Bat Goddess Date: 26 Feb 12 - 07:17 PM Hmmm...(re: above) No, I was just a kid, but saw some of the further effects. And, when I was in high school in the early '60s, my journalism teacher used to constantly preach, "Don't get on the mailing list! Don't get on the mailing list!" (Of anything that could be the slightest bit political, social or suspect in any way.) Linn |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Bobert Date: 26 Feb 12 - 09:12 PM My mom was a purdy good commie, does that count... Still is, for that matter... I call her Commie Mommie... Me??? Too young for the Joe Show... B~ |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: dick greenhaus Date: 27 Feb 12 - 12:13 PM I was there--in college.My most vivid memories are about the pervasive fear that seemed to engulf the nation. I remember my cousin, who lived on a dead-end street, trying to circulate a petition to have the street closed off as a play area....with neighbors afraid to sign any petition. I remember my then-girl-friend's father (age 60) who feared for his future as a government employee because his son was involves with some protest movements. It's a lot easier to be brave and defy authority when you're young. |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Jon Corelis Date: 27 Feb 12 - 12:25 PM Since this forum has an international membership, maybe someone should explain that in US political discourse, "communist" means "socialist," "socialist" means "liberal," "liberal" means "moderate", "moderate" means "conservative," and "conservative" means "ranting right wing fringe looney." Jon Corelis Poems, Plays, Songs, and Essays |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: GUEST,guest Dick Miles Date: 27 Feb 12 - 01:11 PM So how involved was Nixon in McCarthyism?am i wrong in thinking he was fairly centre as a president, but he was a big supporter of McCarthyism. |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Deckman Date: 27 Feb 12 - 01:30 PM Nixon was involved in it up to his eyebrows. Remember the Whittiker Chambers story? And the witch hunt he started by slandering Helen Gahagen Douglass(sp?) when he ran against her for the California senate seat. He used the "red scare" to his full advantage whenever he good. I well knew some of the U.W. proffesors who lost their jobs at the time. I also knew some scientists who worked on the developement of the atomic bomb that were scared to death that they'd lose their pensions. bob(deckman)nelson |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: Bill D Date: 27 Feb 12 - 01:44 PM Was Nixon involved? you might say that... |
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Subject: RE: McCarthyism ... were you there? From: GUEST,999 Date: 27 Feb 12 - 01:53 PM http://www.digitaltrends.com/web/how-to-delete-your-google-web-history/ The title of the link says it all. Better to do that than wait and see what the real results of Google's new privacy policy will be. |
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