BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes

Subject: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: GUEST,skipy
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 06:16 PM

well that got your attention then!
After attending the gathering at a festival near a canal, (recently)I had to leave just one hour into the event (and i didn't get a sweet, as I was sat near the fire place!) as I was due to meet my other/better/dominant 1/2 & the kids too go to another event at the festival. Well I sat through the first 1/2 & very good it was too, the need for a cigarette overwhelmed me so I went outside and stood by the canal to have one. I was joined by "a female" (no names no pack drill) we exchanged the usual pleasantries about us being filthy smokers. She asked what I thought of the festival, I replied that I thought it was very good indeed and added that I had just enjoyed being at the Mudcat Gathering. Straight away she launhed into a tirade entitled "I think those Mudcaters are up their own & each others a**holes" She then went on to say "except present company". Which annoyed me as much as the first statement as she does not know me from Adam. I questioned her a little on the subject to be told that Catters are "eliteist" & will only help people that they know & that are within their tight circle. I wanted to shout "bollox!" I have found help at the cat on any occasion that I have sought it, I have also returned that help whenever I have been able to & would like to give a lot more. She said that she asked one question & was shot down!
Well, over to you lot, do you think we consider ourselves "eliteist"?

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Peace
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 06:24 PM

Well, if the question she asked was, "Are you an a**hole?" then it's no wonder she was shot down.

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 06:24 PM

I could name a few people who have left mudcat because they think the same as she did...

My question for her would be, if she felt that way, why would she bother associating with Mudcatters at all?

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Amos
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 06:28 PM

I'd like to know what help she failed to get, and see if it could be corrected.

A

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 06:33 PM

I suppose it might depend upon the "one question". I can think of some questions that would deserve to be shot down. But assuming it wasn't one of those, she presumably ran up against one of the small number of toerags who hang around here, and that's a shame.

I think most people have learnt that in any social encounter - and this is a social encounter of a strange sort - it's well worth hanging on a little, rather than judging by the first impressions, even when they are unpleasant.

Jane Austen wrote a book about that.

Generally speaking this is the most genuinely, even overly, helpful collection of people I have ever come across.

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 06:34 PM

I'm with Amos. If she asked for a definition of folk music and got the usual abuse - well we have all been there. If she has a question we can't answer or has met some 'Catters and reached her own conclusions, then she is entitled to her opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: GUEST,Skipy
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 06:44 PM

She is the wife of an artist booked at the festival (have to be careful here, I don't know any names but I don't want to give clues)
As I was about to ask "What she asked" the smoking window closed as there where Cds to be sold. & she dashed off to man the table.

Brucie - quite often I am an a**sole.

Amos - so would I

McGrath - totally agree

Sinsull - 100% correct

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 06:51 PM

Yeah, this place isn't perfect, but what place is. If someone was just rude to her, shame on them. I have never liked the abuse that is dumped on a new poster when they ask an old question. I would prefer we just direct them to supersearch and help them learn. But very few people are abusive.

I share Amos' view that if I knew the question that was asked, I would like the opportunity to answer it.

Of course, some folks are deserving of abuse, based on the old "what goes around, comes around" rule. But that is rarely a new person.

I think it is instructive for regular Mudcatters to pay attention to how we affect and appear to others. Somehow many of us have become very close and it can appear to be a closed group. We all know that isn't the case, but it can appear that way to others. A good example of this is the Getaway. In the first couple of years some of the FSGW folks thought that we were holding ourselves apart. They didn't realize that we just assumed that folks knew that they were welcome in whatever sessions we had going. When they saw the "late night in the Mudcat" session going on, they thought we were being cliquish (sp?). And we didn't realize that they didn't know that all were welcome in that gathering, in fact we wanted them to come sing together. The point is that sometimes, because this is an extraordinarily close knit group, we don't realize how we appear and we should all keep that in mind.

The offshoot of that is that FSGW folks now know that we are a very inclusive group that only gets to see one another once a year. And they join right in, to the point that there almost isn't any distinction.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Peace
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 06:57 PM

Skipy, I didn't mean that, please excuse me. I was fartin' around, because it's hard to see people taking the 'cat that way. People here are very helpful.

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 07:03 PM

It sometimes happens. But if she is judging everyone in the Mudcat based on that one experience, that seems pretty harsh to me.

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: GUEST,Skipy
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 07:15 PM

Brucie - I took no offence, I was stating a fact, I did not for one moment think that you where saying anything against me.

CarolC - We once had a Vauxhall Astra (18 years ago) it siezed @ 20,006 miles having been serviced all it's life, no oil low warning & indeed the oil was at the right level, to this day I will not own an Vauxhall , one bad event no trust forever, same for poeple as for cars!
Ask clarkson!

On welcoming new catters, there was a thread just 2/3 days ago that shows that we are open armed to the new.

Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 07:32 PM

"Open armed" is an ambiguous expression. In fact it can be an ambiguous sight. "A Hells Angel approached - his arms were flung wide..."

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 07:38 PM

I guess my point is that she could not have possibly encountered all of the people in the Mudcat during that one experience, and to judge the other people based on the few she did encounter is like judging all blonds based on one's experience with a small handful of blonds (unlike a car brand, which sometimes can tell you ahead of time what you're getting). But I do understand what you're saying. Once bitten, twice shy.

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Peace
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 07:45 PM

Thanks, Skipy. But now I have to take issue with you. You can't be a big an a**hole as me. Lotsa people on the 'cat will tell you that, and they'll be right. Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah.

See what I mean?

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: GUEST,skipy
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 07:54 PM

When I am being "an a**hole" it is alway when I don't mean to be"
For me, as probably for millions of others I find it hard to relax, when I finally do it is then, amonst friends that I tend to lose the plot! I should be an a**hole at work or with the people that really piss me off istead of with those who really care for me!

Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 07:54 PM

Every once in a while I bite- kind of like Skipy's Vauxhall- and always feel bad afterward. My apologies if that was one of the times.

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Peace
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 07:59 PM

People who love us can be hurt by our words and actions more readily than those who don't care for us. That's because they love us.

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: GUEST,skipy
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 08:11 PM

But that does not excuses us from behaving badly towards the one that we love even though they are the ones that we will do it to because we love them in return.
But we all do it!

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Dead Horse
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 08:18 PM

I refuse to post to a thread raised by a guest, Skippy!
So there :-p

P.S. Why are there so many flies buzzin' round my head?

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Peace
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 08:26 PM

No point beatin' you!

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: GUEST,skipy
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 08:30 PM

but I am a "Guest" & of course you posted

Guest skipy (single "p")

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 08:35 PM

Hey, Kevin:

I like to think that we're open and unarmed..

Generic complaints elicit generic responses. How can you even deal with an issue if someone doesn't talk specifically about it?

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 08:37 PM

"a small handful of blondes" - that's an intriguing notion.

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 08:40 PM

How dose it go ... Peace on earth to men of good will . It takes good will to make it .. All the best to all here. Guy

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Peace
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 08:41 PM

Back atcha, Guy.

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 08:48 PM

I have seen blatantly rude replies posted to questions posted by Guests and new catters sometimes by 'members' and can sympathise with any one who gets a load of abuse on a first posting . I also know Guest Skipy and know why he is NOT a member . I will agree with him that on occasions he IS an a***hole , but he is still a bloody good mate . Sadly there ARE people in here who I dont want to meet , but they are definately in the minority , and tend to be the people who DONT go to Mudcat Gathers , or post a profile along with their membership . Its unfortunate that the lady Skipy met at the festival happened on one or two of these clots on her first excursion into the threads !

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: GUEST,skipy
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 08:58 PM

hi leadfingers, I thought that I was member, have I failed to fill in a form or something?
Help me! Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 09:13 PM

Skipy, you are a member. You just have to go to 'Quick Links', select 'login', click the 'go' button. Then, you have to remember your password. Assuming you want to log in.

As to someone being 'shut down', I don't think it was me. I doubt it was skipy or leadfingers or the vast majority of members and guests who post here. I don't have a clue what happened, but I'd guess it was one or two obnoxious people, or a misunderstanding without much attempt to resolve it. Add in the possibility that the answer to her question appeared after she walked out. Let's face it - we're all part of the group she thinks is 'elitist' simply by virtue of being here, and not one of us can make another behave.

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: emjay
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 09:26 PM

Well, I am new, you don't know me, I have asked several questions and had them answered every time even if I could have found them myself if I had looked a little harder or a little more carefully. I think you are a great bunch and I enjoy dropping in and spedning away too much time because one thing always leads to another.
Thank you all!

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Billy the Bus
Date: 30 Oct 04 - 10:38 PM

Thanks emjay - it's what MC is about IMHO

Cheers - Sam

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 01:24 AM

Well, just earlier before the crash Leadfingers was assisting me in the chat with some thoughts about a uke or banjo-uke - I might be acquiring one, as my life circumstances are changing.

Apart from a few nutters (myself included), and a few not so nice poeple, and all those nasty GUESTS, everybody here are people I would not mind meeting. If you are genuine about wanting to know something, you can usually find someone here who knows more than you and is willing to assist.


Robin
'We Like The Moon!'

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 02:47 AM

An answer I've given myself to questions is:

"It's in the DT here"

The implied rest of the message is "and I hope you find that helpful" but of course its quite possible for someone to see a different implied message, such as: "So why didn't you make the effort to look yourself?"

I try to avoid answering questions quite so briefly these days for that reason, but its not easy to avoid that sort of misunderstanding entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 03:03 AM

Well, i've grown quite fond of all you helpful people... maybe she was feeling a bit pre-menstrual...:0)

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 03:22 AM

Aside from the "maybe she was feeling a bit pre-menstrual" quip of BI, which I will graciously let by, I do think that this is such a disparate bunch that it would be really hard not to find something or someone to connect to on here. Even, me, at the faaaar periphery of the folk scene, feels comfortable to shoot my mouth off on any number of issues.

It's hard to know what she posted, without knowing WHAT SHE POSTED, so the rest is kind of moot. It may have been a bad day, or someone had a hair up their butt and inadvertantly took it out on her, or indeed, maybe she WAS feeling a bit pre-menstrul, in which case, all bets are off.

I like it here, even when I encounter the a**holes. It's still the most interesting and open-minded community I can imagine finding on the net, that can argue and hold a tune (mostly) at the same time.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: My guru always said
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 06:01 AM

Oh skipy, I'm so sorry you didn't get a sweet! Had thought that the tin had been passed around fairly but seems you were by-passed. The situation will be rectified at some point soon *grin*

I do hope that this lady will be able to change her views about the MudCat. We tried to make the Gather at Banbury as welcoming as possible (to all, not just Catters) & surely it's at face-to-face events like these where misunderstandings (as I'm sure it must have been) can be ironed out.

It's so easy to be hurt by Black'n'White stuff on the Net, whether intended or not. A smile helps.

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 06:25 AM

Asking a question very often isn't just about getting the answer. Sometimes it's a way of starting a conversation, or drawing people's attention to something they might find interesting, or just introducing yourself.

The best way of answering a question here can often be to provide the information, but add something to it, such as another question. A request for the words of a song can develop into a thread that explres the meaning of the song, it's variants, where it came from, who has sung it, and what expriences people have had that link in to the song. You don't get that from a Search Engine, or even from the DT entry.

The same ind of thing goes for discussions - they maynhave happened begore, but that's no reason not to have them again, because new people arrive. Drawing attention to previous discussions can be relevant and helpful, but I hate it when it is done in a peremptory and sneering way that seems intended to shit up the newcomer.

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Mooh
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 07:46 AM

A driver cuts you off, so you don't go driving?

What gets me are members AND guests who ask the question but then never post a thanks, never mind follow up discussion. Niceties work, here and elsewhere. How the original question is asked is a factor too, with please and thank you and hi how are you all, and as much detail as a person can muster on the subject.

As for being an asshole, I could be, but since I also think assholes don't know they're assholes, how would I know if I was an asshole? How's that for some assholes in one sentence?

I'm sorry for that person described in the first post, she's missing a good community of good people here. (Not speaking for myself, I might be an asshole. LOL.)

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Dead Horse
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 08:31 AM

Rather than "Elite" I prefer to think of ourselves as "the cream".











That's the thick bit you find at the top.............(:-)

(smiley added in case some **hole thinks I could possibly be serious, ever!)

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: greg stephens
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 08:50 AM

Any query on Mudcat surely deserves an informative and chatty answer. That generally does happen, but there is an unfortunate minority of people around here who delight in saying "look it up yourself, thicko", or alternatively "your spelling/typing/grammar is substandard". (In this context, I particularly like the magnificent riposte of the great JOhn from Hull: "this is a music sight, not a spelin sight").
    The practise of referring people to previous threads is often quite offensive and insulting, as well as a stifler of discussion. I appreciate this is an appropriate response to a technical query like "Is Way down to Lamorna really about Pomona?"; but if a newcomer wishes to discover how Mudcatters define "folk" (quite a sensible question, really, on a folkmusic site), I really dont see what purpose is served by telling them to look up previous threads on the subject. I go to the local pub to chat about the weather or local politics or the English canal system, I dont go there to be told what people said on these subjects three months ago. Conversation is a two way thing, lectures are something else.

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: jacqui.c
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 09:13 AM

I've been attacked a few times now by certain Mudcatters but long enough after my first foray in to realise that they were in the minority and that that particular behaviour was the exception rather than the norm. I'm not sure what I would have done if I'd been attacked that way first time in.

It's a shame that the actual problem wasn't found out and that this lady is missing out on a great site and the chance to make so many good friends, all around the world. I've read the replies to a lot of the guest threads and seen the caring that mudcatters have for the problems of others and the degree of expertise that has been demonstrated. Let's hope that, based on her talk with Skipy, she might decide to check the site out again. Maybe that's what we have to do - act as 'ambassadors' for the site and show that, far from being exclusive, we welcome new people for the contribution they can make. I wouldn't have known about Mudcat if I hadn't been told by Keith A - and I've passed on the site address to others.

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 09:19 AM

I'm with you, greg. I find it really irritating when I ask a question, or even worse, start a thread on a topic and I get a huffy response "We've ALREADY discussed that!" As if you are only alowed to discuss topics never discussed before. Sheesh! There can be a real arrogance to that response, depending on how it's stated. It's all in the way that it's said. A friendly link to previous discussions doesn't have to be a put-down, or a turn-off on a new discussion. The day I don't get something new out of a thread, no matter how many times the subject has been discussed, I'll be looking up at the daisys.

(It also helps to be more understanding when you get old and you keep telling your kids the same old stories.. and they are kind enough not to say "You've already told us that story, Daaaaad!"

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 10:40 AM

Where Americans have a**holes, we Brits have a***holes. It may not seem much to you but that additional asterisk matters a lot to us.

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Dead Horse
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 03:55 PM

Now we come to the real que'stion, when should there be an apostrophe before the last "s"?
It i's the whole crux of the is'sue, if you wa's to a'sk me, and the rea'son thi's thread wa's po'sted in the fir'st place. At lea'st, that's what I gather from reading between the line's.
And shouldn't Brits (Brit's)have that apostrophe too? It does signify the missing letter "i". (and where did the "h" go, enquiring minds demand to know!)

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 04:20 PM

"Rissoles" are plural; "rissole's" you would use when you wanted to refer to something belonging to a rissole. The same principle applies to other words.

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Peace
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 04:31 PM

It's has two meanings in English. IT IS or IT HAS

The dog's dish is green--the dish belongs to the dog.

The dog's going outside--The DOG IS going outside.

The apostrophe is easy to explain. Message me if you want the short version.

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 08:48 PM

Brucie:

Do you believe the possessive form using an apostrophe (man's proclivity for cruelty, Kerry's superior qualifications) is actually a contraction of "(x) has" ???

It have never heard such a theory -- I have always believed it was a separate and independent development, not a contraction. It seems to go in an entirely different direction, grammatically than a contraction would.

As an indication of the genitive or possessive form, 's means "belonging to ___". Which is not a contraction. The notion that it is somehow a contraction for "___ has" is a new curve to me.

IS this a fancy of yours? Or is there some etymological evidence behind it? I yam all ears.


A

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 09:08 PM

It makes sense to me, Amos. If it belongs to someone, that someone has it. I never heard it before either, though.

Disclaimer: lots of stuff makes sense to me that normal people don't get. Lots of stuff makes sense to normal people that I don't get.

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 09:15 PM

It has been claimed sometimes that the possessive 's is a contraction for "his" - but I don't think any serious etymologst would accept that.

But the practice of using an apostrophe to indcate that one or more letters are missing is pretty common - but not on a letter by letter basis. So instead of writing "a**holes" or "a***holes" it would, I suppose, be "a'holes". I can't say I've ever seen it written that way, mind you.

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 09:25 PM

Regarding what I said: It's not that I think it's a contraction for the actual word 'has', but perhaps the implied word. I never really thought about where that dangly possessive 's comes from.

Subject: RE: BS: mudcatters are up their own a**holes
From: Amos
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 09:32 PM

Wal, Jeri, of course the apostrophic possessive implies having, conceptually, no question there. I just don't feel any confidence in the notion that it is linked that way grammatically or symbolically.

A