BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?

Subject: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 05:10 AM

Now I know that people truly have lost the plot!   This morning I watched the News, to hear that public sector workers in Ireland are all on strike today, because the Government wants to cut their wages.

When they interviewed some of the public, asking for their opinions, most of them said they thought it was a good idea, because we're all in tough times and we all need to contribute to getting out of them.

Pardon me????????

So let me get this straight. It's OK for the bosses to write themselves huge wage cheques each month, to give themselves bonuses ad infinitum....but their workers, you know, the ones who've made them rich, or who keep the country running, are to have their wages lowered!

WHAT is wrong with everyone?

The same thing is happening over here in England, wages being cut...The Postmen having their wages threatened to be cut back by nearly a third in some cases...our Dustmen too...

Yet the Fat Cats get obese with grossness and no-one bats an eyelid!

Hello out there in Fat Cat Land, but your workers have huge bills to pay, bills that increase almost every month, and most are already struggling. Yet you think that you can cut their wages whilst keeping yours?   

Or do they think that if they cut their salary from £500,000 to £400,000 that they're being really good boys and girls? Well, hell, try living on £15,000 and having it cut back to £12/11/10,000..because I can assure them that the difference in life quality will be huge.

We should all be out on the streets fighting for every worker who's being so unjustly treated, instead of saying "Oh, I think it's a jolly good idea!" Yeesh, the Power of Orwellian Indoctrinisation!

"Let them eat cake!" all over again..

Bring back the Bastille!


Oh...and for those in charge to think on..

....The Irish Firefights, Ambulance Crew, Police, Rescuers etc, have broken their strike for fair pay because......because they're out there, up to their waists in flood water rescuing people and helping them to survive, whilst putting their own lives at risk!

And The Bastards want to cut their wages!!

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 05:21 AM

SIGH!

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 05:27 AM

Now, don't you go a-startin' again..John. :0)

My ex-husband has just lost his job, after being forced to reapply for it (crap idea that one is...but it's happening all over the place at present, far more than before)


And my manageress's husband has told that he'll be having his wages cut after Christmas (he works for Torbay Council)....and he'll have to reapply for his job too.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

Chris (my manageress) was called to an area meeting the other day. All staff were told they had to bring their own lunch with them, which was the first time this had happened. And this is in a company that is spending millions changing all it's lovely gold hangers to black, because 'they fancy a change'. They also waste millions in booklets to teach their staff what we already know...

The Corruption Up Top has never been as bad as it is now..

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Smedley
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 05:44 AM

Bring back the Bastille ??

Can we have the guillotine too ?

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 06:00 AM

Can you knit ?

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Smedley
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 06:05 AM

No, but I'm prepared to leer, jeer and cackle (a good name for a folk trio??).

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 06:31 AM

I'll do the knitting...although, being left-handed I may get a few people's names wrong....but I could sit beside the Guillotine whispering "Oops, I did it again!" whilst dressed 'Britney Spears like' in my 'Wrong Heads R Us' new brand of clothing.

GREAT name for a band, Smedley! Hopefully, the new members of it are watching this very thread and about to launch themselves into an unsuspecting folk world!

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 06:40 AM

"Liz you give a very sorry description of England. Emigrate. It will be good for you and good for your family. "

Probably be quite good for England too! LOL


Noooo, joking apart though...my country is up Shit Alley at present, but we English are always at our best when under threat.

There are times I'd love to leave it, because I get so frustrated at the way people have given in...but hell, would I miss the castles, the countryside, the history, the beauty, the lakes, the mountains, the National Parks, the woodlands covered in bluebells...

Bloomin' England has me handcuffed to her. She runs through every part of me...and it's why I've turned from a Worrier into a Warrior, because I'm damned if I'm going to sit back and just let her go under....


"We've lost more than we'll ever know round the rocky shores of England"

Would someone PLEASE tell Show of Hands to re-issue and update with a few extra verses 'Cutthroats Crooks and Conmen' because that song is sooooo fitting, and it would go down an absolute storm at the moment...

AND get a professionally filmed performance of it out on Youtube too...

I'd tell 'em myself, but er..............

;0)

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: GUEST,Mike of Hessle
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 07:16 AM

I totally agree with you Lizzie about those living in Fat Cat land.

We had a Pay Freeze last December and are expecting the same this year and yet THE BOSS took a 100% Pay Increase.

Bring on the revolution - I want to be in the front-line when these Plutocrats are marched up the steps to the Scaffold or Guillotine

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Michael
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 07:29 AM

"When they interviewed some of the public, asking for their opinions, most of them said they thought it was a good idea, because we're all in tough times and we all need to contribute to getting out of them"

Yes Lizzie but it's 'the public' saying OTHER PEOPLE'S wages should be cut. There are always perfectly good reasons why it's ok for others but not for me.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 08:06 AM

Not sure of the specific situation in the UK but here in the US some employees have chosen to take cross the board pay cuts so that ALL could keep working. This includes some school districts.
Bring your own lunch? Maybe, when times get better, some wise manager will maintain some of the perks cuts and save for a rainy day.
Unfortunately, a company can not run without managers but the lowest of the ranks can suffer cuts, assume more duties and little is lost companywide.
If a company is privately owned the owner(s) can do as they please. I worked for a company where we exceeded annual goals both volume and dollars by 10% but had salary increases and bonuses cut because the owner had bought a custom Mercedes and had to pay for it. I worked on straight commission so it didn't affect me but there were young guys with families who had been counting on huge bonuses - they had earned them.

As to "Yet the Fat Cats get obese with grossness and no-one bats an eyelid!", do yoyu have specifics or are we off and running again on a theme "everyone knows is true because it is repeated over and over"?

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 08:17 AM

Huuumm...the initial post says that "public sector workers in Ireland" are having their wages cut because "the bosses write themselves huge wage cheques each month [and] give themselves bonuses ad infinitum". Things must be different in Ireland - in the US, the public sector bosses are also on fixed salaries and hardly write their own checks or give themselves bonuses. When I was a public sector boss, and the employees of our government agency were required to take two week unpaid leaves, the bosses went first - and that saved enough money that the rank-and-filers didn't have to.

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 09:08 AM

Public sector bosses in the UK are also on fixed salaries. Some have a performance bonus built in, but not all.
Who was it said "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story"?

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Stu
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 09:19 AM

Yoo-hoo! This is capitalism at work, and everything's tickety-boo.

You're supposed to be exploited otherwise the system doesn't work, and everyone knows this. Bollocks, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 10:28 AM

We should all be out on the streets fighting for every worker who's being so unjustly treated,

I'm with you all the way on this one.

I think we should have a nationwide general strike. I've tried to push this through my union branch when I was in full-time employment a number of times.

Have you tried putting it through your union branch? That's the way you know, organise. I think you would get a lot of backing.

Let us all know how you get on and when you want us retired to people to come out on strike with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 10:37 AM

When they interviewed some of the public, asking for their opinions, most of them said they thought it was a good idea, because we're all in tough times and we all need to contribute to getting out of them.

Most people I know here in the US have already had pay cuts, and/or lost benefits due to the recession, but have accepted these cuts in the name of helping to keep their companies alive. Their level of tolerance for "public sector"workers striking to protest wage cuts is going to be extremely low. I assume "public sector workers" refers to government employees. In this country, we still view them as being paid by tax revenues collected from the citizenry, and so, public servants. Certainly no better than the rest of us who have lost pay or even our jobs.

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 10:41 AM

The unions did for Callahan, remember who we got then!

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 10:57 AM

I know - but times were much different then.

As Lizzie points out - we all ought to show some solidarity amongst each other and hit the pavements fighting for every worker who has been mis-treated.

If Lizzie tells us which union branch she belongs to I'll see if the Trades Council in Sheffield will support a resolution.

There is no popint in one person Like Lizzie struggling all by herself. That way lies defeat. A strong trade union might just win it.

No guarantees of course. People may lose their jobs. But since that is happening anyway I think this is a good idea. Fight back!!

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 11:05 AM

Our company president tookhimself off thepayroll at the worst of the recession, a year ago. The rest of us got clipped ten per cent. Given the number of layoffs going on, I didn't mind the clip, and the company has started rolling it back up as soon as possible--sooner even than was completely prudent--to minimize the pain. Meanwhile we are recovering and have stopped hemorrhaging, and are even slightly profitable.

Groups have to survive, just like people. But it sure is easier when there isn't a layer of protected fat at the top posing as a brain!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 01:16 PM

The next layer is subcutaneous.
Are you sub cute Amos?

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 03:57 PM

"There is no popint in one person Like Lizzie struggling all by herself. That way lies defeat. A strong trade union might just win it."

They can't cut my wages back....I'm on basic minimum as it is! :0)
This is The West Country, Land of Country Life....and no jobs...

"What went wrong?"

I got half the bus riled up the other day, with the Postmen in the back seat getting cheers and support all round for their strike.

Hey, you insinuating that I can't get the Rebellion started all on my own?   :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 04:57 PM

I would way rather take a cut or furloughs etc. than lose my job or have someone else lose their's. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 05:04 PM

Yes, but that only works if *everyone* takes an equally fair cut.

It also only works if Governments step in to stop gas, electricity, water suppliers and Council Tax charges to be capped, because how, if people are working for less, are they expected to pay higher and higher bills?

It's hardly rocket science.

The amount of money that many businesses waste, totally unnecessarily, is criminal, especially when they're taking money away from the very people who are doing most of the hard work in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 05:30 PM

Hey, you insinuating that I can't get the Rebellion started all on my own?

No Lizzie I am saying that you can't WIN a rebellion on your own.

We should all be out on the streets fighting for every worker who's being so unjustly treated

Needs organising Lizzie. Lets start by organising a boycott on this shop that's changing it's coat hangers.

Facebook group anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 05:34 PM

I worked for the US Government as an employee for 25 years, and as a contractor for five years after that because my job was abolished when privatization was in vogue. Privatization "gifted" us with frozen wages and another layer of upper management. That's 30 years of work under the dictatorships of ideological trends and public opinion. It's hard to work efficiently in that kind of situation.

I live in the Sacramento area, so I have many friends who work for the State of California - and the state government is in horrible financial straits. I think it's two Fridays a month that state civil service employees are furloughed right now - the equivalent of a ten percent pay cut. Many state employees my age are enjoying the days off; but younger workers with children, mortgages, and lower wages are really hurting. If they went on strike, I wouldn't blame them.

Elected state officials avoided the furloughs and pay cuts for a while, but Attorney General Jerry Brown approved a 19 percent pay cut for elected officials this week, so it's nice to see the Fat Cats will finally be affected by their own mistakes. The only Fat Cat not affected by the pay cut was Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, because he doesn't take a salary at all - and I applaud him for that.

I'm not convinced that across-the-board cuts are ever a good idea. In thirty years of government service, I went through many times when my salary was frozen or I wasn't allowed to work overtime or to travel, or when I was furloughed. In the long run, most of these measures cost more money than they saved. If an organization is running efficiently, cuts tend to cripple it to the point where it wastes money.

When I was working away from home, I regularly defied orders not to work overtime. Far better to finish the job late Friday or on Saturday, rather than have to drive 300 miles to the worksite the following Monday. So, I'd work until I finished and take the time off on Monday. My time reports may have been fraudulent at times, but the taxpayers got their money's worth - and I got the job done efficiently (and I got the pleasure of sleeping in on Monday morning instead of driving 300 miles). If I had worked in an office under a supervisor, I would not have been able to do that. I was lucky - my managers were a hundred miles away. Employees often work far more efficiently without management looking over their shoulders.

An economic downturn can be an opportunity to make the economy more efficient, but only if cost-saving measures are logical and compassionate. Better to cure the patient with a scalpel, rather than a bludgeon. If you work for government, you're more likely to get the bludgeon.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 05:44 PM

Yes, but that only works if *everyone* takes an equally fair cut.

You have said before, Lizzie, that sums are not your strong point so I will point the obvious. You said earlier that if the bosses took a cut from £500000 to £400000 and worker went down from £15000 to £12000 it would not be fair. So far so good? Well, £100000 is 20% of £500000 so the bosses, in your scenario, have taken a 20% cut. £3000 also happend to be 20% of £15000 so the workers have taken a 20% cut as well. From your comment above that is perfectly fair yet earlier you say it is not. Which is it?

Cheers

DeG

BTW - I took a 15% cut last March and had to take a week unpaid in April. But I am an independant contractor and the managing director of my own company so I fall in the camp of scummy boos and downtrodden worker all in one!

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 05:47 PM

A trade union is only as strong as it's membership.

the CEO of Essex county Council pulls nearly a quarter million GPB yet she and Lord Hannignfield are on a transformation kick to outsource as much of Council Service as possible.

They claim they will make £3 million savings by 2012. The only way to do this is to outsource the back office staff (Lord H's own admission) . If we are all outsourced to the likes of IBM and other corporate masters, we won't be permitted to belong to unions.

Every week, I check the Jobs at ECC ads and every week, more and more heads of departments and directorate manager posts are being created in restructure after restructure. A bunch of jockeying for position.

It is fucked. I am fucked. My colleagues are fucked. And the service users are gonna be fucked.

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 06:14 PM

a company can not run without managers - true, that's one of jobs that need doing, be there's no reason it should be paid significantly more than other jobs which are just as demanding in different ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 07:06 PM

So a person who has the skills, training, education and know-how to build roads should get paid the same as the person who rakes the asphalt, because asphalt-raking is just as demanding in a different way? Bollocks, as they say.
The fact is asphalt raking, grass mowing, and nut-tightening are tasks in which the investment in training is minimal and the experience required is negligible. They may be more physically demanding than designing an office building, but an architect or draftsman is paid more, because his value is greater in a job market where demand is substantially greater for such a qualified individual. This says nothing about the personal worth or respect due an individual architect or asphalt raker, but only speaks to the comparable value of their services.
A qualified manager should have a skill set above and beyond those possessed by those whom he manages. If he doesn't, there is a name for that: Incompetence.

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 07:58 PM

I remember participating in a study that the State of Washington was doing back in the early 80s, when they were trying to establish (or maybe it was to validate - it's been a long time) a comparative worth study to be used to set wage rates. The two occupations they were focusing on were licensed practical nurses (one year of formal [classroom and clinical] education required, life-and-death responsibilities) and heavy equipment [i.e., bulldozer] operator (some practical training and much OJT, potential to do significant physical damage). The conclusion was that it was rather like trying to compare apples and weather balloons, and they went off in another direction.

IMHO - and I've been there - a manager really should be able to do, to supervise and to teach everything that an subordinate does. This isn't always possible, especially in cases of technical skills, but the key function of management is to integrate diversity into cohesion.

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 04:14 AM

Hey, in California, the state was issuing their state employees, IOU's, instead of paychecks for a while!!! True story!

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 04:47 AM

Everybody thinks they can manage, and most people resent and under-rate those who manage them.
Like Dave the Gnome, I too had my own business, and had the pains, expense, and pleasures of employing people.
Taking a holiday meant taking on a temporary driver, often at agency prices. Promoting my best man to run the warehouse, with a commensurate bonus payment.
Only then did I have time to think about paying for a holiday!
The backbone of this country is the millions of small businesse, who get no government help if they fall over, and who's owners often have put up their house, as security at the bank.
If you go bust and claim job seekers allowance, you don't get it, the same goes for sick pay.
Oh how I envied those in cosy regular jobs, sometimes.
Minimum wage! What minimum wage? Try self employment.

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 04:58 AM

"You have said before, Lizzie, that sums are not your strong point so I will point the obvious. You said earlier that if the bosses took a cut from £500000 to £400000 and worker went down from £15000 to £12000 it would not be fair. So far so good? Well, £100000 is 20% of £500000 so the bosses, in your scenario, have taken a 20% cut. £3000 also happend to be 20% of £15000 so the workers have taken a 20% cut as well. From your comment above that is perfectly fair yet earlier you say it is not. Which is it?"


David...if a person is struggling on £15,000 a year, and you know that in this country, the way the cost of living now is, they will be doing exactly that, unless they are in the lucky position of not having any bills to pay...then going down to £12,000 and sometimes far less..is almost impossible.

If a boss is on £500,000 a year, and he takes the same hit, he's still laughing all the way to the bank, (which is laughing too these days)...Hell, even if he had to take a 50% cut he'd still be able to buy a decent house outright, if he had to give up his castle...and have money left to live on quite comfortably.

So, when I speak of everyone taking an 'equally fair' I actually mean that the fat cats at the top realise how bloody lucky they've been all this time, and have the guts to take a huge hit on their salaries....more like 60/70%

My maths may not be too good, but my Soul makes up for it..and it the Fairness of the Soul that I'm talking about.

This recession will be changing the way many people think, as no other recession has ever done before, save that of the 1930s....because we ain't even down the bottom of it yet, despite the fat cats saying it's over.

The only thing that 'over' is the way they've been ripping everyone off for decades, because people are no longer going to put up with it.

People are angry and they're getting angrier, and that's a good thing, because Anger is the antidote to Apathy, and it's Apathy which has got the world into this ridiculous state in the first place.

And Dave...I am not telling you where I work, but I can assure you that Christine, our manageress is very much on the case at the moment, constantly complaining, as are the other shop managers, to those above, who sit on their fat well clothed arses and make idiotic decisions, with no thought for their staff at all.

You may, however, like to write to The National Trust to ask how much their new Staff Training Manuals have cost, because of course, that's being done with the public's money, they being a charity and all...Fiona Reynolds is the lady in charge...Strangely, when I wrote to her, as a customer, she did not return my email with details of costs etc....

I'm sure you'll have better luck though. :0) Thank you for your help.

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 05:34 AM

I am not telling you where I work, but I can assure you that Christine, our manageress is very much on the case at the moment, constantly complaining, as are the other shop managers, to those above, who sit on their fat well clothed arses and make idiotic decisions, with no thought for their staff at all.

A few posts ago you were saying We should all be out on the streets fighting for every worker who's being so unjustly treated,

So you have settled for the manageress being on the case?

Phew! To be honest it would have been a bit hard organising over Xmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 05:43 AM

Management by diktat, where orders are handed down from above, without an explanation of why it has been made, or what it is intended to achieve, is BAD management.
Too often in big companies this is the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 05:48 AM

"Hey, you insinuating that I can't get the Rebellion started all on my own?

No Lizzie I am saying that you can't WIN a rebellion on your own."


And that, is absolutely correct.

However...I could have got that Rebellion started a few weeks back, but..guess what? Yes, the TV company wouldn't let me 'talk'. They had well over an hour of me ranting (in a controlled manner,folks) about the state this country is in, the injustices going on, the lack of moral and honest behaviour, the dog eat dog situation we're now in.

Oh how I spoke angrily about Torbay Health Authority and my 95 year old mother-in-law not being allowed to have those bath handles..being told she had to stand up and wash as she wasn't deemed 'critical'...and they're bankrupt anyway, so they ain't giving anything out....HOW I raged (politely).......but no, he wouldn't use it, he wouldn't take part in having the guts to stand up and say "ENOUGH!!!!"

And why?

Fear of being taken to court.

The press were exactly that same...

"Oh, I'm sorry, but we can't possibly print that, in case of legal action. We won't print anything that's too, too...well, you know..."

Yet the man who brought his camera round to film me felt exactly the same as I did. He was as angry as I was.....and he agreed with what I was saying.

So, the legal system has forced a silence upon this country, upon many countries, which, in a way, has opened the doors for The Corrupt Ones to take over and do what they've done.

Years back, as I've said before, the Poll Tax was repealed because of one woman. One woman who went on Radio Devon and was ALLOWED to speak her mind, was allowed to sit there and say "This is so WRONG!"....and the rest, is history.   Within days it was on every local BBC radio station, making it to the Big BBC Guys shortly after...and we all DID take to the streets, Dave...Remember? My family did, Nonny in her pushchair too....out onto the streets of Plymouth where the City was brought to a standstill as thousands of people, inspired by ONE woman, finally got angry enough to bring about change.

She would not be allowed to inspire people these days..and THAT is the hard part.   

Our voices have been taken away....

It is time, somehow, to bring them back...

So yes, if your friends in Trade Unions need another voice, send them my way, because this country belonged to my Dad, who went to war for it...but it also belongs to his grandchildren too, as does the rest of the world, and from what I see through my un-rose-tinted-truth-glasses, we are, at present, on a Highway to Hell...brought about by our own Apathy and Cowardice.

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 05:53 AM

I am no coward, Dave. You have chosen to not believe most of the words I put on here, chosen to try your utmost to pull them apart, to paint me in as dark a light as you can....

But trust me, the words I put down here are true.

So, I take up your challenge.

Do it.

Get your friends involved.

Get them in here, to PM me and we'll take it from there.....

Get them to get me media space, time, air time, cameras, whatever it takes...

And I am perfectly happy to organise this over Christmas too, because my country and the Crooks who are running it, mean more to me than some arsed up celebration for a huge piss up, instead of a quiet contemplation about the Son of God and all he represented....

So stop bloody whingeing at me...and damn well do IT!

I am my Father's Daughter....and I do not back down nor give up.

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 06:24 AM

I could have got that Rebellion started a few weeks back, but..guess what? Yes, the TV company wouldn't let me 'talk'.

Yes they did........

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/8295585.stm

What you mean is Lizzie they wouldn't let you say what you liked. Not the same thing.

Oh, I'm sorry, but we can't possibly print that, in case of legal action.

You wanted to involve the press in a possible libel action and expected them to agree?

Sheesh!!!

Lizzie tell me the name of your trade union branch and the name of the secretary or local contact and I'll get one of the local branches here to twin with yours.

That'll get things started.

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 06:25 AM

instead of a quiet contemplation about the Son of God and all he represented....

And please, do not assume we are all Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 06:29 AM

Lizzie you are always suggesting that people ought to be getting off their lazy, apolitical arses and starting some moral crusade or other...and now you basically want Dave to organise it for you?? People who lead movements don't wait for other people to find them media attention, or supporters, or anything else - THEY are the ones who "damn well do it."

Take FAF as a very small example. The organisation is now thriving, people are wearing the shirts, we had a presence at the recent AFO conference, artists are using the FAF logo on their new releases, big plans for FAF week next April are underway - it's all good. But we didn't wait for anyone else to do it for us. We just did it. And when we didn't have the skills we needed to do certain things, we went out and found the people who could - we didn't wait for them to come to us.

You were going to start your own folk radio programme and your own festival recently. How are those going?

I would suggest that the "legal reasons" why BBC Devon couldn't broadcast your rant were probably something to do with you not being able to provide any specific evidence for your allegations. Anybody can shout about stuff, and LOTS of people do, which is why the media can't give every single one of them a platform. But if you really want to get sustained media attention for something, you have to build up a dossier of evidence and present it to them. That takes time, and research (not just googling). No one pays you for it. But if you persevere, you'll be successful.

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 06:46 AM

So, when I speak of everyone taking an 'equally fair' I actually mean that the fat cats at the top realise how bloody lucky they've been all this time, and have the guts to take a huge hit on their salaries....more like 60/70%

So why didn't you say that in the first place instead of saying everyone should take an equaly fair cut? What you are talking about is equal distribution of pay and, while it does seem to have it's advantages, the arguments against are completely different from the arguments against what you have been saying. I do wish you wouldn't change arguments mid-stream. I know it's to do with your special 'gift' but it makes you come across as someone who cannot make up their minds and it is very difficult to follow.

I have said before and will say again, if you want to go for equal distribution of wealth try using the well lmade arguments in 'The ragged trousered philantropists' by Robert Tressell. Make sure you read to the end before you do though and see why it could never work.

BTW - If bosses get a 70% cut and workers get a 20% cut what do I get? I am MD of my own company and one of the only 2 workers. Do I add the two together and take a 90% hit? :-)

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: GREEN WELLIES
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 06:51 AM

I work for a very successful heavy engineering company who have projects and clients world wide.

We have a profit share twice per year, good wages, and good holidays. Our working conditions are little short of fab. No complaints at all. And this is a UK company.

Last year we had our profit share because everyone in the company worked hard and earned it. But we went without our annual rise. We chose to support the company not squeeze it 'cos its my right and I know my rights gov'.

Not all companies are the same. Dont tar them all with the same brush. Our directors have hugh responsibilities, and if I was in their position, which I am glad I'm not, I would want to be paid well for carrying that responsibility. I am PA to the MD and the board of Directors and I know the hours they put in, on call 24/7, working late into the night, travelling to the other side of the world at a days notice, and for that they are very well paid and I dont begrudge them one penny.

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 07:17 AM

Yup, fair and loyal companies get fair and loyal staff who all pull together (see the thread on Boots the Chemist for my views on that GW)

"And please, do not assume we are all Christians."

I didn't. Where have I said that? Assumed that? I said that Christmas is not an excuse for a piss up, but actually about the Son of God. Er...if I'm wrong on that one, please correct me,yet again.

You may have chosen to disregard that fact, but I haven't, not because I'm deeply religious, I ain't, but I have a strong faith and respect for those who do have religion. No other religious celebration has been turned into such a fesitval of greed, as Christmas has, with no mention of WHO the festival is really about, save for the churches. Hell, they're not even supposed to sell cards with Mary, Joseph and Jesus on any longer...

Well, sod that for a game of 'Let's Crap all over Christianity!' because the people who've brought Christmas down to what it's become wouldn't DARE do it to any other religion in the same way...

You wanna hold all religions in respect? Fine, then do the same for the religion of this country too, and that is Christianity.

I'm no hypocrite, Dave.....sorry.

Nope, you get your pals to PM me in here, thanks...and we'll take it from there. Or, they can find me via my Myspace page.

It wasn't the 'libel' action I was going to get the TV people involved in, sigh...it was the matter of someone standing up and saying "What the hell is happening to us all, and WHY are we all putting up with this shite!"....except in a far more ladylike manner, with no swearing.

He chose the most beige, bland and boring bit he had to play with...and my respect for him went out the window, because he had the opportunity to do something there...and he threw it away...despite knowing that the time is way overdue for us all to start doing *something*


And a few moments ago I heard, on Radio Devon news that the Banks have been let off the hook from paying back MILLIONS to customers, which they've 'stolen' off them in bank charges over the years...despite a huge campaign being launched, and almost everyone involved with it saying that the banks wouldn't possibly win this one, because they'd been so outrageously corrupt!

"THERE ARE CUTTHROATS, CROOKS AND *CORPORATE CONMEN RUNNING THIS LAND!"

*A slight alteration to Steve Knightley's words there.


Folk Against Facism?

No way. Not when the person running it has accused me, in here, of being racist and xenophobic....and put down the most disgusting lies about me on Facebook. In your dreams, lady!

You want this to happen, Dave...then you do it my way.

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 07:44 AM

I never posted one lie about you on Facebook (though you posted quite a lot of quite nasty, public and damaging lies about me and others in a blog some time ago) - and I accused you of making xenophobic statements because they were.

I don't care whether you, personally, have any regard for FAF, its members or its aims. The point is, we found a core of people who thought the same way about a particular issue within a reasonable geographical proximity of each other, all of whom had skills to bring to the table, and we got off our arses and did something. We spent a hell of a lot of our own time (not to mention money) organising meetings, talking to the press, writing website copy, having merch made, contacting artists, and planning the events and strategy which will take us up to FAF week next year. So far it's been pretty successful. It's a model you might like to think about adopting in your own numerous crusades.


"You want this to happen, Dave...then you do it my way."
In other words, you do it for me. As Uncle Bill famously said, start your own revolution, Lizzie, and cut out the middleman. All this ranting on messageboards gets you nowhere. The revolution is just a t-shirt away...

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 07:48 AM

You still haven't told us how the festival and the radio show are coming along...can we look forward to Torquay Folk Week this year? Have you got dates? I'd like to put them in my diary.

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 07:55 AM

deG wrote
So why didn't you say that in the first place instead of saying everyone should take an equaly fair cut?

basic literscy in numeracy and ethics would allow you to see that equally fair does not mean 'the same percentage'. Lizzie has explained why hugely different cuts would be equally fair.

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 08:02 AM

Thank you, Tug.

I'm just waiting for Radio Devon to phone me back, as they're doing a piece on South West Water, who are telling everyone what they're new charges are going to be tomorrow.

We pay 50% higher bills down here...and we're the poorest paid people in the country.

It stinks!

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 08:04 AM

"You want this to happen, Dave...then you do it my way."
In other words, you do it for me. "


Nope. He gets his friends to contact me via here or Myspace and we take it from there.

STOP trying to spin what I say!

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 08:17 AM

And yes, they rang back...and yes, I spoke to them...and yes, I got really emotional, because THAT is how I feel about what has happened to my country!!!

And YES, I got Show of Hands song, Cutthroats Crooks and Conmen in there too....

So do NOT tell me that I'm sitting on my bloody arse getting other people to do things for me, because I am so damned angry at what has happened to my country that I'm about ready to take on the world, if only I could get the bloomin' tears to stop!

Subject: RE: BS: Ooh, yes please, cut my wages back! ?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 08:18 AM

why should this be predicated on Dave getting a bunch of people to contact you? Why aren't YOU out contacting THEM? And you also said that if they'll get you the airtime, you'll go on air and do the shouty bit.

Well, here's a secret, Lizzie: anyone can shout. As I said earlier, lots of people do - unfortunately most are ill-informed and misguided, and the media won't take a blind bit of notice, but at least the internet has given them a vent for their rancour. If you really want to make a difference, the graft comes in getting out there and knocking on the doors of the media - BBC, newspapers, etc - writing the press releases, building the websites, developing a sustained campaign of action, and developing a position of credibility through research and evidence which back up the things you claim.

Having the odd tanty may make you feel better in the moment, but it ain't gonna change the world.