BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jan 10 - 10:55 PM

For those who might be bewildered by the geography: There is a Des Moines in Washington State. It's south of Seattle.

FYI

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 03:50 AM

Q - You need to go to The White Hart in Cumbria, where vinegar is banned. The landlord says it affects his very well kept beers so will not allow it in the place.

Lizzie - I didn't see any point scoring - just a point of fact. Mind you, just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you...

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 04:15 AM

Excuse me, but over and over and OVER on the BBC board when Chris's song was up for an Award people told me to listen to it, because they thought I'd love it.

At NO time did Joan come on there (and yes, she was writing there at the time) and say "That' Hugh Lupton's song, not Chris Wood's!"

So sorry folks, but the pedantic vinegary ones are out again, as ever, to pour the vinegar on anything they can that I write, wherever possible. If they did it to others, then I'd have no problem, but...they don't.

I did NOT state that Chris wrote it....

Holy Jumping Battered Catfish!

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 04:54 AM

Ahhh - Sorry. Didn't realise it was one of THOSE threads:-) I guess it's over then?

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 05:26 AM

T'aint over until the Fat Fryer sings...as they do say in Batterland.

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 05:31 AM

Don't you mean The Chipmonks, Lizzie?

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: MikeL2
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 05:50 AM

Hi Lizzie & crew

A very tasty thread....

I spend a lot of time in Menorca ( Spanish Balearic Island).

They have almost every kind of fresh fish that you can imagine. There is nothing better than fresh-caught fish cooked simply and eaten right in front of the water.

But for the Brits on a Friday one enterprising Spanish owned restaurant does fish and chips the English way....yes in batter.!!!!!

The fish and the chips are great but the Spanish just can't make mushy peas....!!

One day we persuaded the restaurant owner to have an English Folk night.....( no arguments about what kind of folk PLEASE).

We told him to put on his fish and chips and me my mate and our wives managed to find some dried peas in one of the shops and we made a big container of mushy peas.

Everyone praised the addition of the peas and the owner of the restaurant asked us if we were interested in supplying him with some.

My mate jokingly suggested that we two went into business by opening a Mushy Pea Factory.

Sorry to disagree with the non-vinegar lobby.....it's a must on hot sizzingly chips and fish.....yum yum

The island does have a folk club. It is held every night in a cave. No electrics....!!! Most if not all the songs are in Catalan or Menorcique ( a dialect of Catalan). There are some singers who sing in Spanish but they are in the minority.

I have been going there for over 25 years and the same man runs the bar and his guitarist has been with him all this time ( and much before we started going ). He is now in his 85th year.

I took some recordings on occasions and although the accoustics are not great....we sometimes open a bottle of Rioja and listen to our Spanish friends to remind us of many happy hors spent there.

cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 06:46 AM

That's a lovely story, Mike. Thank you...

In fact, there are some wonderful things in this thread..



"The island does have a folk club. It is held every night in a cave. No electrics....!!!"

Oh Cripes! It's my Show of Hands Cave, from the BBC board!!!...How wonderful! I had them in there when the electric failed or the end of the world was nigh, can't quite remember the whole story now, but it was fun...although, as always, I got into trouble for it from The Vinegar Gang....

Sigh..   ;0)

Mike, I'm on my way over...I have Spanish ancestors, the de Torres clan, who I've been told hang out somewhere near the mountains in er....some part of Spain..and the men are known locally for having blue eyes. Of course, I expect they eat fish and chips too.

Do you know, I've never tried Mushy Peas...

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 07:06 AM

hi lizzie

Can't imagine Show of Hands without electrics....lol

member of the de Torres clan eh.... not the one who plays for Liverpool ???

Funnily enough only last night I was sorting out some of my music and songs and I came across Spanish Eyes.

I have known the song for many years but always thought that it started with the words two Spanish Eyes...only last night I noted the lyric and it is BLUE Spanish Eyes.....

Although we go to Menorca a lot my wife's sister lives in Andalucia not too far from Granada in Southern Spain. They have people living in caves there....but I don't think they have blue eyes.

They speak " normal" Spanish there...Castillian.

It is much much cheaper to live or visit there than Menorca.

Regards

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 07:18 AM

I was looking up Menorca and went off on a complete tangent when I fould this amazing comment in Wikipedia -

Menorquí also has a few English loan words dating back to the British occupation such as "grevi", "xumaquer", "boinder" and "xoc" taken from "gravy", "shoemaker", "bow window" and "chalk", respectively.

I wonder if they sing 'My Johnny was a xumaquer' in the cave?

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 07:31 AM

Applies in Spanish too.

Jamon normally refers to dried ham (sometimes given to vegetarians on the grounds it hasn't been cooked (!!).

Jamon de jor (or "yor") is what we called boiled ham. (Jamon de York)

Andalusians (in my experience) tend not to pronounce their letters very distinctively. Thus Madrid = Ma-ree. Almost with a glottal stop in the middle.

And the language is normally called "menorquin" (AFAIK). Most of those words would be pronounced as suggested except "xoc" which would be pronounced "shock". Which might be hard to see as "chalk".

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 07:58 AM

"Q - You need to go to The White Hart in Cumbria, where vinegar is banned. The landlord says it affects his very well kept beers so will not allow it in the place."

I love that. I used to work in a pub where the landlord used to say that a thunderstorm would turn the beer, but I've never heard anyone claim that simply being in the proximity of vinegar would have some mystical chemical effect. Fantastic!

For the record: I have absolutely no idea what Lizzie is talking about re other boards, other discussions, etc. Life is too short and frankly I can't even remember every real-life, important conversation I had three, four, five years ago, let alone internet trivia. I only mentioned that they were Hugh's lyrics as a point of clarification, as the story seemed to be the thing that was relevant to the thread. He is a storyteller, and as Kitty says, the story is his.

Re salt and vinegar vs without: for me, this has been a matter of taste changing over time (again). When I first came to England I never had salt on my chips, just vinegar - I think I was subconsciously frightened of a meal that not only had that much fat in it, but was also covered in salt. But my palate has changed over the years, and now I recognise the error of my ways: fish and chips with salt and vinegar is, in fact, the food of the gods (though I only tend to eat it once a year - as Lizzie says, the White Horse in Sidmouth is pretty hard to beat, and that's where I have my annual indulgence these days). But I still don't like salt and vinegar crisps.

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 08:07 AM

I must say, given the option, I usualy put just salt on my chips but I must say I don't mind a bit of vinegar when they put it on in the chippy. I love vinegar on tripe or black peas though. Mind you, not may people will eat either, with or without vinegar!

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 08:40 AM

D el G: whenever I make bean soup (either with gammon or lamb as the base) I put in about a dessert spoon of red wine vinegar. It really lifts the flavour. Vinegar and beans (or black peas) - yum!

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 09:18 AM

I should think his aversion to vinegar in his pub, is because it could give rise to vinegar flies, aka fruit flies. As one of the best methods of trapping them is a 'beer trap', I imagine they would adore a pub cellar.
Most modern vinegars are so refined and pasteurised that the occurance of a 'mother of vinegar' is highly unlikely. However this growth can turn any alcoholic liquid to vinegar, and I assume that he may fear cross contamination, should such a beast arrive with his vinegar supply.

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: MikeL2
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 09:44 AM

Hi dave

You are right about the pronunciation by the Andalusians.

They do tend to shorten words either by running letters together or as you say by missing off word endings.

They also pronounce the "c" plus a vowel as "ss" not "th" as in true Castilian.

When we go to Granada I always say that their dialect is to Spanish what Geordie or "Scouse" is to English.

The dried ham is usually called Jamon de Serrano and is delicious.

Certain regions in Andalucia still retain the tradition of Tapas.

When you go into a bar in these regions they will provide you with small portions of food free if you buy certain drinks....eg beer and wine but NOT tea coffee or spirits or water.

These tapas vary from bar to bar and can include, serrano ham, cheese, chorizo ( sausage ) fish, meats and of course bread etc.

So if you go out to lunch you don't need to buy food if you have a couple of drinks.

My wife's sister lives in onesuch region.

Regards

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 11:13 AM

I think it was something to do with the latter, John. There was a section about it in the menu but the beer was that good I forget what it said:-)

Running words together is quite common in Lancashire as well -'Nothing but' becomes nobbut; 'See you' becomes sithee and of course the most common - the abbreviation of 'the' to a 't' and glottal stop, as in 'put t'kettle on, Mother'. The 't' is not realy pronouced at all.

I intended saying before - I love fresh fish as well. Visiting Spain for the first time. some years ago, had me eating grilled Sardines every day for lunch at sea front cafes and getting various other types in bigger places during the evening - Marvelous stuff:-)

And Ruth - If that stuff you make has been soup, what is it now?

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 01:20 PM

When I was in Marseilles we spent a bit of time down on the old waterfront, and it hardly felt like being in a big bustling city at all. There was a restaurant there that clearly was aiming at an international clientele, because the menu was printed in about 10 different languages, not in sections, but each menu item had its own translation, then the next menu item, etc.

By the little British flag it said "Fried Fish" so we figured we were safe. What can they possibly do to fried fish that would scare a bunch of American boys?

When the fish came they were about 2 inches long, completely intact, with googly eyes staring at us. Lots and lots of googly eyes. Most of us passed.

I'm just sure that in the back room they were howling with laughter and when French people came in and ordered Le poisson frit, they got a nice chunk of white fish battered and fried. I'm just certain of it.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: Paul Burke
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 01:25 PM

The landlord of wherever is of course quite wrong about vinegar affecting his beer. What causes beer to become vinegary is acetobacter. This may be present in some vinegars, but most British vinegar is non- brewed condiment, i.e. chemically produced acetic acid usually with some caramel colouring. It has never contained any acetobacter, indeed they couldn't thrive in it as ther's no alcohol for them to oxidise, which is how they make their living. And I suspect (though I don't know) that most brewed vinegars are heat- treated to stabilise them.

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 01:51 PM

Mousethief - surely the dish you got in Marseilles was what we call 'whitebait — a pile of small fish fried whole, often served here in good restaurants as a starter — I sometimes choose it when I lunch at The Groucho Club. Is it not known over there?

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 02:41 PM

It's a delicious meal too

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 03:09 PM

Good Lordy!!

They serve 'perfumed' fish and chips in The Little Chef chain...

?????

From a 2008 article in the Telegraph, which I can't seem to link to..

>>>By Matt Warman
Published: 7:25PM GMT 27 Nov 2008

Heston Blumenthal at work in the kitchen
Mr Blumenthal is best know for his bizarre menus – including snail porridge and bacon and egg ice cream – at The Fat Duck at Bray, Berkshire, which has three Michelin stars and has previously been voted the best restaurant in the world.

Little Chef, meanwhile, enjoyed iconic status in the 1980s but has more recently suffered a decline, as its menu became perceived as unhealthy and out of date. From nearly 400 restaurants at its peak, the chain has dwindled to a current level of under 200.

Launching it, Mr Blumenthal said: "This absolutely isn't Little Heston's. I've tried to create a menu that could, if we train people properly, be rolled out to every Little Chef across the country."

Mr Blumenthal's plan involves fish and chips arriving at the table accompanied by a small bottle labelled "the smell of the chippy". Customers will then be encouraged to spray the "perfume" under their nostrils as they eat. The resulting aroma, intended to enhance the flavour, is redolent of pickled onions.

How bizarre!

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 03:10 PM

I posted an answer about this about an hour ago and now it's not here. Is it just me going crazy?

Anyway we don't have anything by that name or description. Not that I'm particularly aggrieved about that.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: MikeL2
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 03:15 PM

Hi mousethief

MtheGM is right they would have been what we call whitebait. Delicious by the way.

Your experience has happened to us in Spain. Like you we went to a small fishing village and ordered what was called fried fish on the "translation" on the Spanish menu. We got the little ones fried whole.

These are called boquerones in spanish and you get these if you order fried fish. If you want the bigger ones that we all get in our own countries you have to specify that you want pescado frito.

Same in France....you got friture......the big fish are ordered as poissons frit.

Because I have been to Spain many times I taught myself to understand the language. Had many laughable incidents along the way because I insisted in ordering everything in Spanish and I THOUGHT I knew what I was ordering. Luckily I can and do eat almost anything but my good lady gave me some ear-ache on occasions...

I have been asked many times while in Spain to help English people who don't speak the language. Two amusing ones stand out...I was in the local Spanish Supermarket one day ( two checkouts !!!) and an English guy had heard me ordering what I wanted in Spanish. He asked me if I knew the Spanish for puff pastry I told him that I knew what pastry was but that I was not going to ask a Spaniard what was the Spanish for puff...lol

The other happened in the local Spanish Pharmacy. Don't ask me why but they never appear to have anyone who speaks English. Anyway this day there was an English lady looking flustered at the counter so I asked if I could help. She told me that she had forgotten to pack her HRT medication and was staying for a month. I asked her what was the pharmceutical name but I just couldn't get it over to the pharmacist I ended up by literally saying the letters HRT ( which are meaning less in spanish) something like "ache erre te" So she brought out all the different kinds and the lady spotted the one she took.

Part of the fun going abroad is some of the surprise that can happen......my wife and I always just go with the flow...the Spanish are delightful people and they try to be most helpful - we have made many Spanish friends from this.

hasta la vista

miguel

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 03:36 PM

I remember trying to explain that I had indigestion to a non-English speaking pharmacist in Boulogne - Boy did I fee a twerp when I found out what indigestion was in French:-)

It was nothing to do with Fish and Chips BTW but a lot to do with mixing beer, wine and cafe cognac!

On the subject of food in Boulogne, most of the cafes their seem to do something called 'Welsh'. Never found out what it was but what do you think would happen if you wnet into a cafe in Cardiff and asked if they did French?

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 03:38 PM

Mousethief, they are called Smelts in America and can certainly be found on the Eastern seaboard, and possibly elsewhere. They are popular throughout the Mediterranean as well - my Sicilian grandmother used to cook them regularly when I was little. Despite their small size they have a very strong, fishy flavour, and although I will eat pretty much anything that comes out of the sea (and especially out of a shell), I won't touch smelts (or whitebait) with a barge pole.

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 03:46 PM

Oh, and a factoid: I remember my uncle once told me that smelts/whitebait are the source of the term "small fry"!

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 03:48 PM

"Whitebait are young fish; in Europe the term applies to young herring, but in other parts of the world it is used for similar fish of other species. Whitebait are tender and edible. The entire fish is eaten including head, fins and gut but typically each 'bait' is only 25-50 mm in length and about 3 mm in cross section."

According to Wikipedia, smelts are up to 20cms in length.

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 04:48 PM

Smelts are also found on west coast B. C. and Vancouver Island.
We had them, fresh netted, on a Vancouver Island beach one evening; they were tasty and not strongly flavored. We had potatoes baked in the coals of our fire. A meal we remember with pleasure.

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 04:51 PM

The ones my grandmother cooked were about two or three inches long - they must have been young ones, just like whitebait.

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 04:57 PM

I've been a fish and chips devotee since visiting New Zealand in the late 70s. They sold it in traditional fashion, and more besides. One could also buy huge hamburgers such as the Hawaii Burger, with a big ring of pineapple on, or the Texas Burger, with a fried egg. The complete burger was put sideways into a brown paperbag so that as you ate at one end, and the overcrowded food betwixt the buns fell in the other, you would not create a greasy mess on the floor and you had greasy bits to eat after the bun was over.
There was also a paua sandwich, which was nothing less than a big hunk of fried abalone.
And there were savalloys, than which nothing could be nastier more.
But the fish 'n chips were also outstanding and fresh and hot and everywhere. And with malt vinegar.
the very best fish and chips I've ever had, in NZ and in Canada, were prepared by cooks of Greek heritage. Just an observation.
About twenty years after NZ visit, I was flying my own little plane across Canada to Alaska, and more than once I had to stop for fresh Canadian fish and chips. One occasion I landed at a small airport and there was nothing there, but the operations director was happy to loan me an old beater of a car to go into town and fetch me a big ol' bag of fandc, and I'll never forget taking off into a crosswind with that greasy bag next to me filling the cockpit with that earthy odor of grease and fish. Up Up and Away!

Subject: RE: BS: Fish & Chips - 150 years old today
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 05:37 PM

I remember with pleasure the mahi-mahi sandwiches in Hawai'i, the fish in a bun with lettuce, etc, and served with french fries (chips). A place in Hilo had the best, but others were almost as good.
I have lived in Canada many years, but I never heard of the Texas or Hawaii burger.
I remember a favorite of Hawaiians- two scoops rice, two burgers, two eggs, gravy. Guaranteed to add weight by the ton.