Lesbians, Gays and folk music

Subject: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,Ferron Fan #1
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 11:21 AM

While attending folk festivals in the last several years, I have noticed that there are many, many out lesbians who are folk music performers and fans. However, there seem to be very few out men who are either folk music performers or fans.

Why does that seem to be the case? Why have lesbians embraced folk music as part of their culture while gay men have not?

Lisa G. (Ferron Fan #1)

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Allan C.
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 11:47 AM

Although I am a dyed-in-the-wool (no sheep jokes, please) hetero, I'd like to comment on this.

Generally speaking, folkies are an odd lot. The choice to embrace folk music is one of selecting a truly alternative style of music. (I remember how disappointed I was the first time I tuned in to an "alternative" music radio station and discovered that folk was not even on the menu! But I digress.) It seems to me that people who have become accustomed to looking at less common alternatives in various parts of their lives would quite naturally develop an interest in folk music.

I can offer no explanation in answer to your question as to why there might appear to be more "out" women than men around the folk scene. So far, I have seen a rather even quantity of both.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,Goldie
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 12:05 PM

I think you're right in that it appears there are far more 'out' women than men, but it probably has as much to do with how an entertainer 'expresses' themself and how they choose to tell their story.

Folk music is pretty laid back and I think most creative gay men would aim their art in far more 'glitzy' musical areas.

Someone once said that gay men want to be entertained, and lesbian women want to be 'validated'. That's pretty general but I think there's a germ of truth in it.

For the last twenty or so years, young women 'singing their stories' from a stage, have been taken pretty seriously, so it means that the audience is already there.

Also, most female listeners have no problems fantasizing physical contact with a same-sex balladeer. Much harder for guys to admit to it.

Goldie

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 12:22 PM

I think it probably has something to do with the fact as well, that society is more acctpting, (or at least willng to ignore)of gay women than it is gay men...

A truely bazzare double standard indeed...

We can only hope that one day, the human race matures...

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,dougboywonder
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 12:35 PM

I personally found it facinating to see thousands of "lager swilling" types shouting that they were glad to be gay along with Tom Robinson at Sidmouth. The persuasive power of the man is astounding...

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 12:45 PM

I suppose you could say the same about Afro-Americans, and then you could go into a serious soul-searching mode and moan about how folk music excludes so many minorities. I don't think that's the case - I think folkies are quite open to anyone who wants to join them. My guess is that we're low on percentages with blacks, but our percentage of homosexuals is just about even with the percentage of homosexuals in the U.S.

Most music is about sexual love. That topic is just one of many topics covered in folk music. Maybe homosexual folkies don't use their music to make a statement about their sexual orientation. Classical violinists don't, either - and that makes it very hard to tell which ones are straight and which ones are gay.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: emilyrain
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 01:35 PM

i haven't seen many openly queer folkies at all, regardless of gender, so i'm glad to hear that there are some at least. : ) a serious search of my mental files has turned up one lesbian folkie i used to know... hmm.

where _are_ all these queer girls? where can i find some?

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,Ferron Fan #1
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 01:49 PM

Well, for starters there's Ferron.

Then there's Heather Bishop, Holly Near, Meg Christian, Cathy Fink, Marcy Marxer, Lucie Blue Tremblay, Catie Curtis, Tret Fure, Cris Williamson, Teresa Trull, Penny Lang, Judy Small, Janis Ian, Judith Kate Friedman, Toshi Reagon...

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: gnu
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 02:11 PM

Janis Ian ? There goes THAT fantasy ! I learned the truth at (well past) seventeen, That love was meant for beauty QUEENS....

What do you want ? OUT DAMN SPOT ! ??? Generalizations suck... generally speaking. Moot.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 02:20 PM

Thanks, Ferron fan #1, I am also a big fan of her's, as well as the others you mentioned, esp. Holly Near!

Joe, I take it you haven't had much of a chance to hear any of these fine women. I can think of several songs by them, right off, which are about love. Some of which I sing, too. They are beautiful songs.

There's probably also more openly gay womren in folk, or at least it seems that way, because it is easier or more acceptable for women to do so. In our society it is easier for people to pass off lesbians who are out, as "those crazy women" than it is to dismiss some guys being out. The dominant patriarchal culture feels more threatened when their male image is challenged.

Ferron Fan, you might like to check out this thread: Historical lesbian/gay folk songs?.

Emily, nice to see you on here, again! Check out the women's music festivals. Here's a great site for links: Women's Festival dot com.

kat

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Cappuccino
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 02:33 PM

To Gnu - the Janis Ian website, which has a very good forum indeed in which the lady herself often answers questions, once included the question: 'I heard that Janis once got married... to to a man!' which provoked a very quick reply along the lines of 'yes, but she's alright now!' She's still a heroine of mine. - Ian B

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: gnu
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 02:52 PM

And a heroine of mine. I never tire of her mastery. Amazing tunes... simply amazing. I think I shall go "refresh" on her shortly. I'm in that kind of mood today... rainy, boring, lonely - just the time to hear her whine in her amazing way.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 03:25 PM

Emily, there are actually quite a few in your neck of the woods, or at least there were when I lived there. As to whether they're unattached, I couldn't tell you!

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 03:27 PM

Kat - I have CD's from ten of the women on Ferron Fan's list. Yes, they're all very good performers - but most are what I would call singer-songwriters, not folk musicians. Of the performers on the list, only Fink & Marxer are the only ones who are closely tied to traditional folk music. The others may do a traditional tune now and then, but they're more closely tied to what is sometimes classed as "Women's Music" - Tower Records puts them in the bin right next to Folk Music.

Of the women on the list, my favorites are Holly Near, Meg Christian, Cathy Fink, Marcy Marxer, Cris Williamson, and especially Judy Small.

I think that lesbian musicians have made a concerted effort to identify themselves as such because they see that their music has the power to make the world a more welcoming place for them. Lesbians in general have worked to ensure that their interests are included in the category of "women's issues" - part of the general movement for rights for women. There is no similar "men's movement" - so homosexual males don't have a larger movement they can tie themselves to. The women's movement has a very large stage, and lesbian musicians have wisely made themselves a place on that stage. No such opportunity exists for homosexual men - not because of any particular folk music prejudice against homosexual males, but simply because history did not present them a similar opportunity.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Allan C.
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 03:57 PM

Joe, you have made what I consider to be an excellently stated and very astute observation.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 04:05 PM

Same here. Very true, Joe.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 04:40 PM

At first read, I was confused as to whether we were discussing performers or audiences, but it really doesn't matter, I think Joe's last post is pretty true. And I'd also be curious as to whether a part of it isn't related to more acceptance (not that society has suddenly embraced women) of female homesexuality more than male. I don't know that's true........it's an observation of some things I see. Perhaps because of women's issues as Joe said........or something...........And I can be obviously quite wrong.

I wouldn't even try to "defend" that observation because not only may it not be true, it's simply an observation from me, here, as opposed to you, there. I'd like to know what others think and I would especially value Emily's opinion.

I think the singer-songwriter idea has a lot of merit too with audiences more used to women singing their lives onstage. It's not my favorite stuff, but there are many I do like. "Lilith Fair" of a few years ago certainly drew a heavily lesbian biased audience and there were very few males in attendance in general, hetero or homosexual. I really had a great night, but talk about seeing the other side and feeling the outsider.........Don't get me wrong, it was a great night and a friendly bunch of folks, but one of those times when the "majority dominant" position of white, hetero, male got the chance to be in the insignificant minority......Always humbling and something we need to feel. When you grow up in the "dominant majority" you can have empathy and work toward justice and equality, but you never really know the feeling.......This was as close as most of us can get....I know it's not the same, but it beats nothing.

Spaw

Spaw

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 05:43 PM

I believe you have made excellent points and that there is merit in all of them particularly Joe's women's movement commentary.

But I believe that the answer lies more in their chosen lifestyles and culture. (Not their sexual preference but their social behavior and fashions.)

In my admittedly limited experiences with gays of both sexes I have found males to be more glitzy than straight males and the females to be more earthy than straight women.

This is a generalization but I think many of you will find that your experience bears it out. Gay males tend to look and act more like Broadway or pop musicians with neat expensive snappy clothes, while Lesbians lend to be more bohemian in their dress and demeanor. I would think that like most people they would be drawn to musicians with whom they have more in common.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 06:52 PM

Very clearly put, Joe. This must be the main reason. However, I'd like to add that Judy Small may not be a trad performer as such. But she has said in interviews that many of her songs are written in a 'traditional' style because she realised early on there are very few traditional songs about women, outside a very limited number of stereotypes.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,nonPC49
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 07:36 PM

Just a thought, but isn't it just a bit sad that there will be no Arlo, Hank Jr, Liza or Kirsty to follow on from Janis Ian, Judy Small, k d lang et al?

Although AI, surrogacy or adoption may be substituted for normal procreation, isn't this chosen homosexual "lifestyle" inherently sterile and non-(re)productive? Socially acceptable it may be, but it can never be normal, or homo sapiens would be extinct already.

I am not homophobic and have several "gay" friends and acquaintances (although I still begrudge them the adjective), it is just that I get the feeling that there is a fashionable tendency to impute homosexuality to any male who exhibits sensitivity or a "feminine" (ie not testosterone-laden) nature.

This buggers up the gene pool by making it harder for normal, sensitive, heterosexual women to find suitable partners of the opposite sex, which can make them turn to other women, celibacy, serial monogamy or, worse (for the offspring, at least), single parenthood and thus contribute to the decline of what little remains of civilisation.

Basically, though, I don't give a flying f*** what artists (or anyone else for that matter) do in their private life, I'd just hate to see the breed die out! So, it is perhaps just as well that the majority of us are still resolutely heterosexual.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 07:57 PM

WOW!! I am impressed! An intelligent discussion without flamers (so far). I was going to make a couple comments, but they have already been made, by Joe Offer and kat. I was going to say k.d. lang, but Guest nonPC49 beat me to that, too.

It seems somehow, to be "safer" for women to have women partners than for men. Perhaps this has something to do with (pardon me for saying it) the phobia about anal sex......gay men do, gay women probably don't. Don't know for sure.

Also, it seems to me that in GENERAL, women are emotionally tougher than men all over the map. You all know the saying,

"If men could have the second and fourth baby, there might be a second, but never a fourth...." It surely has something to do with the "female" mind set.

Most "serial killers" are men; granted, some are female, but not a large percentage. Most "parental killing of children" in the Homo sapeins species is by females (mothers), not males.......don't know just where I am going here, rambling.......somebody help me out here.....

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: jaze
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 08:24 PM

Does it seem to anyone else that "racial" prejudice is no longer "politically correct" in nearly all circles only to be replaced with an increasing prejudice against gays? It seems society is particularly fearful of and hateful towards gay males. Male nudity is considered "dirty" while most people consider the naked female body a thing of "beauty".There seems to be an inherent prejudice agaisnt men in this respect.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 08:35 PM

Sorcha and jaze are both wandering along the same thought line as I was above..............Just seems that although society is still not accepting of gay relationships, they seem to be far more accepting of female than male.........Again, just an observation as I said above.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: AliUK
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 08:38 PM

nonPC49....my but you left yourself wide open, "I am not homophobic and have several "gay" friends and acquaintances". Seems to me I've heard THAT apology before in a different context. I think Joe said it all and there's not a lot more to add.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 08:54 PM

Very true, jaze. Sad, but true. Here I am, out in Old Wyoming---home of the Matt Shepherd beating/murder, with a very possibly lesbain daughter........

Maybe........women's relationships are "percieved" as less threatening because of the Dominant Macho attitude that is percieved of most men?

i.e.---Men somehow think they can always dominate women (even if it's not true); women seldom think they can dominate men and usually don't want to try.....we just go our own way and ignore them. We just don't care that much about dominance.

Gay men are not usually "dominant/macho" in the sense that I am using it.....neither are gay women. But, the men seem to make easier targets, because women a)don't give a shit and b)will fight back sooner......???? (still rambling.......

(this is coming from the "Don't threaten my cubs" place...)

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Peg
Date: 01 Sep 01 - 10:19 PM

Gay parents can be as wonderful, effective, loving and nurturing as straight parents. I know a lesbian couple who just gave birth yesterday!

What is all this hogwash about the species dying out?

You have gay friends? Sure you do. So does Clinton Hammond.

BTW the very talented and very GAY Ashley MacIsaac was GREAT tonight at the Galway Bay Oyster Festival!

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,Just Wondering
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 12:12 AM

Great thread. May I add my two cents worth? Maybe lesbians have had a need to ID with a particular type of music in order to "thin end of the wedge" because of the restrictions imposed by society on women in general. By that I mean that gay males have never been restricted in their ability to express themselves culturally (at least in the west) because they have always played such a huge part in creating general culture - have been so productive in all areas of culture. Gay men, being men, have always had access to the same avenues of expression as straight men. The history books are full of gay male cultural super stars, who took their place alongside straight men. It is only recently that women have been allowed to contribute in a larger way to our cultural life, so maybe gay women find safety in numbers in a particular branch of that cultural life. Just another couple of comments : to nonPC49 - humanity will hardly die out due to non procreation by homosexuals; its more likely that over procreation by heterosexuals will be our downfall. I presume you also dissapprove of heterosexual couples who do not have children. Also, if non-procreation is abnormal, and gays not procreating would lead to extinction of the human speciesas as you fear, think on this: most animal species that have ever existed are extinct, so extinction is the "norm". Sorcha, not all gay males like or engage in anal sex - I read somewhere that about the same percentage of het men as homo men like and engage in anal sex with their partners. Sorry for going on so long.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 12:23 AM

In more repressed times it was much more acceptable for two "old maids" to live together than two bachelors. While both were thought to be oddities and outside the "norm," women who roomed together and taught school or whatever were less of an anamoly, I think.

I don't like to see generalisations made. I've been in the lesbigay world for so many years, I've met people from many differemt walks of life, colours, ethnic backgrounds, ect, folks like anyone else. Raising children, having babies, loving family, working hard, and making their way in the world.

At a gay dance spot we used to go to, when most everyone was truly in the closet, in Casper, WY, 22 years ago, I saw big huge truck drivers, as tough as they come, dancing with cowboys or sweet young men who worked in antique shops. I saw strong women, full of fierce pride and resistance to society's dictates, feeling free to sweep another woman off her feet, hold her close and dance her stockings off. Because back then, bisexuals were not even accepted by lesbians and homosexual men, I fell in love and was rejected for being a "fence-sitter."

In the way of our world, gay men are the last despised class of people, still reviled and hated by those who are filled with fear. In many places it is still totally acceptable to express and act upon that fear. Of course, it still happens to women, too. Two of my best friends here in town are completely out as a couple of over 16 years. There is not a day that goes by that I don't think of their safety and give thanks for it. It was not that many years ago that a lesbian couple was murdered in Oregon. It was not that long ago I helped a lesbian whose co-worker decided to show her what a "real" man could do for her, through repeated rapes. But, it is also not that long ago that we all came together, lesbigay people and heteros to hold one another in grief and solidarity for our brother, Mathew Sheppard. And, not that long ago that we marched together, arm in arm, borrowing the songs of the civil rights movement, bursting with joy at our freedom to assemble, peaceably, and declare our solidarity.

Yes, homosexual men and women are the last acceptable minority target, but it is changing. This year's census report showed an increase of over 2000% in the number of homosexual couples in the state of Wyoming from over ten years ago, and the Rocky Mountain area leads the country in increased population of lesbigay people. The more who come out of the closet, the more the fear can be confronted and assuaged through education and interaction.

Woman have not had the constraints of intimacy in their friendships/relationships as men have. Women can walk down a street, hand in hand and most of society thinks nothing of it. Let two men do the same and chances are they will be harassed. I can only hope we see an end to it in our lifetimes.

kat

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 12:25 AM

Guest, JW, good points. I missed your post as I was writing mine. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: iamjohnne
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 01:10 AM

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned the line dying out if the female folksingers are lesbian. I think that Melissa Etheridge and David Crosby provided an answer to that. Johnne "goin where the weather suits my clothes"

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 01:40 AM

I agree with kat that two 'old maids' sharing a home historically seem to have raised few eyebrows. Two bachelors had to be brothers or otherwise related to each other to attain the same acceptance.

However, I would go a step further and venture that there's another element at work here, a sexist one. I suspect that one reason that two women living together has been accepted was the widely held belief that women are inherently less sexual than men and therefore 'probably' don't have a sexual relationship. (And we all know how much more sexual men are! Stereotypes are amazing, aren't they.)

Among my own friends in Oregon, there are several pairs of women who live together that, to this day, I don't know whether they are romantically/physically involved with each other. In some cases, if I felt it necessary to make a judgment on it, I would guess that they are probably not a 'couple'. In other cases, I imagine they are. In any case, I think it's good that they each have found someone who cares about them. Loneliness isn't fun, I've heard.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 02:31 AM

Okay, here are a few more thoughts. Perhaps less gay men then women are out in folk music because it s more dangerous and there is less support for out gay men. Homophobic hetero men are more likely to assault gay men than gay women. I've lesbians to be more supportive in a group than gay men. Again, this is my own humble observation and not dogma. Also re the message from pc49; gayness is biological, not social. One in ten. Count the number of people on the next bus you ride. Do the math. It's not a disease, or an arbitrary choice. Not that it couldn't happen, it's just not probable. Then again, Sammy Davis Jr. did convert to Judaism. Jeeze, talk about taking the hard road. Homosexuality and homosocial relations do occur in many other species. Like it or not, it is a fact. Your serve.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,dougboywonder
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 04:13 AM

Oh, how could I have forgotten - There's that song by Alistair Hullett. It sounds wonderfull sung by June tabor, but when he himself sang "Theres a man in my bed..." I couldn't help but laugh at the age of eleven, till I found out the English folk tradition does that all the time.

Men singing "My love he is a handsome man, and proper tall and slim..." or Women singing "I love my love as well she knows.." or "...my true love passed me by, I knew her mind had altered by the roaving of her eye.....and married we never shall be." (you're not kidding...)

It's just that we PRESUME they're singing songs meant for the opposite sex. To the naive, folk music possibly has the largest body of recorded homosexuality of any genre ever.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Cappuccino
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 10:33 AM

Sunday morning here in Oxford, England, and I've just come home from playing my morning duo gig in church, where the minister told the congregation that he had met two lesbians on holiday, and was praying for them to be cured.

I thought 'ohmygawd.....'

And, as a matter of interest, my favourite gospel choir is Lavender Light, the New York 'gay and lesbian, people of all races' gospel choir. Read their story, if you're interested, on www.skywriter.demon.co.uk (sorry, haven't learned the blue clicky things yet) but the lady who chairs them (and who uses the wonderful e-mail name 'MC Jellyroll'!) once told me: "if there were more choirs like this around, there'd be a lot less gay suicides..."

All the best - IanB

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: John Hardly
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 12:00 PM

I actually think that Jack the Sailor pretty well answered the question first posed.

The reason gay males aren't attracted much to folk music is that 1. It isn't culturally what attracts them at this point. Stereotype but true, they tend toward pop, glitz, OR hardcore----I mean, heck, they were instrumental in defining our pop music and culture (as someone before me pointed out). As the MAJORITY of them (Fred Small notwithstanding) are not interested in the "folk scene" the rest don't go there because the pickins would be pretty slim (when looking for potential sexual partners).

Lesbians, on the other hand, are women who by nature and desired appearance, do not care to fit a societal norm. The folk scene attracted a few, very talented women and that signaled that they might find a comfortable home in the folk scene---as well as other like-minded women with whom to "mate".

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Madhatter
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 07:02 PM

as we all know "there's know't so queer as folk" madhatter

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Sep 01 - 09:40 PM

Well, actually, at least in Balkan/International folk music and dance circles, gay men have always been well represented and fairly visible--

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: gnu
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 06:08 AM

Peg !!! Tsk tsk tsk !!! You said the magic name. Wait til Clinton sees it... then DUCK.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Peg
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 11:40 AM

gnu: hypocrisy bugs me.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: marty D
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 12:28 PM

Well spoken Peg.

Isn't it hilarious how all those people who discuss Gay 'morality' ad nauseum have all these Gay friends? In my work I've interacted with Gay and Lesbian folk for years and never got the impression they sought out conflicted heteros as 'best friend' material. Maybe all these 'friendships' are a tad one sided.

I'll go with those who think that folk music would have to be a bit more 'glitzy' and 'cutting edge' before you'll see more 'out' Gay men participating.

marty

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: WyoWoman
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 01:47 PM

Si Kahn has a beautiful song on his "New Wood" cd about the isolation of a man in a small town who had once loved another man and when they were outed, his lover killed himself. His songs are so wonderful in a lovely low-key, compassionate/powerful way.

My experience, having lived in one of the small cities in the U.S. with the largest per capita gay population (Santa Fe, NM) is that 1.) men are much more brutal to men they suspect of being gay; 2.) women-in-general might shun women they suspect of being lesbian but they don't taunt them and beat them to a bloody pulp; 3.) even if you try to socialize with either gay men or lesbians, they tend to self-select and shun YOU. My friends and I went out of our way to include our gay and lesbian friends in our activites -- not out of any sense of missionary zeal, just because we liked them, we worked with them, we socialized with each other so why not with them? But they would rarely show up at our parties and when they did, it was with their other gay and/or lesbian friends. They would stand around on the fringes, watch for a little while and then leave, usually to go to a gay or lesbian party or bar of their own. Occasionally, I would be invited to one of their parties and I would go. I was treated with respect, but definitely was held at a distance because i wasn't part of the 'family.'

It's a vicious cycle, isn't it? People feel threatened, they segregate themselves to feel/be safe, then they're segregated because they only want to hang out with "their kind." And everyone can tell themselves that's fine and that's how we want it. It's this way with racial differences, too. People have such a hard time stretching themselves beyond certain boundaries.

P.S. Jaze, some of us think a nekkid male body is a thing of beauty as well. Depends on the male. And on the thing, of course.

ww

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 02:02 PM

happy rapper

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 02:38 PM

I heard Rabbi Lionel Blue on Radio 4 this morning, as I remember it he was talking about labelling people as a type and then giving the label common attributes. He was talking about all Jews being thought of as rich and the hatred that propogated in WWII (his family and those he knew were not rich)

Homosexual is a label like any other, the only common behaviour is homosexuality, apart from that these people are as varied in every other sense as any other sub group of humanity
So might I suggest that we may all know homosexual people, the fact that they refuse to wear the label and be 'different' in all aspects of their life means that we do not notice them, all we see is the glittzy people who like to wave their label in your face

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: John Hardly
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 02:54 PM

Definitely not PC, Roger, but I somewhat disagree. I do think that homosexuals do fit certain behavioral patterns more than do most other "sub-group(s) of humanity".

I would also echo WyoWoman's second paragraph as something I've found to be my experience too.(though not as a resident of a heavily gay populated city---rather a heavily gay populated business)

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 04:08 PM

John Hardly, if you met a gay person who didn't fit that "certain behavioral pattern"...how would you know?

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Hawker
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 06:29 PM

As a happily married heterosexual, I relly dont feel that it is something that I care to muse about, after all I do Hope that all the gay men and lesbian women out there are not worrying about what proportion of heterosexual people who are into folk music are male or female.........'nuff said
Lucy

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: John Hardly
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 07:32 PM

Mark,

Good and clever question! I guess I am assuming because 1. I do know a large number of gays (because I do art fairs for a living) and 2. I think it is somewhat necessary to the survival of their behavior (sorry, I feel weird with the "we" "they" thing, but I'm not, so I don't know of any less polarizing way of expressing myself). To some extent, if they do not have secondary behaviors by which to know each other, how will they find each other?

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: WyoWoman
Date: 03 Sep 01 - 11:27 PM

Well, I'd also say that the characterization of gay men as more glitzy is not accurate, given the gay men I know. There definitely are some divas, but there are just as many linemen-for-the-county types who are plain as rain and so masculine they fooled an enthusiastically straight gal like myself, and not at all into the foo-foo stereotype.

ww

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: gnu
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 05:25 AM

Peg... what does that mean ?

puzzledgnu

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,Just Wondering
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 09:49 AM

Thought I would put my oar in again. As others have pointed out, we have to be careful of sterotyping. Stereotyping leads us into a "us-them" minefield that is difficult to negotiate. I am not innocent of sterotyping (who could be, brought up in human society?) but do try hard not to. So here goes. I agree with WyoWoman that not all gay men are divas - I have known many stolid, suburban types who would prefer to stay home and weed the garden or paint the house rather than be caught dead in a feather boa, who would prefer to sing in their local church choir rather than sing pop, glitz or hard core, as one person put it. Also, there have been, since way back when, gay men who have made a huge contribution to ALL areas of culture, not just the glitzy. In addition, I have met many "fruity" "foo-foo" men (terms used by others), whom I thought gay, but who turned out to be heterosexual to the core (if there is any such thing). John Hardly implies that gay men are not interested in the folk scene because (to paraphrase) "the pickings are slim when looking for potential sex partners". This brings up another steroetype about gay males - that they are highly oversexed and are constantly cruising for sex. This may be true for a small minority (as it may be true for a small minority of straight men) but most gay men I know are either in long term monogamous partnerships or wish they were, and are really more concerned with the everyday running of their lives as are heterosexuals - paying off the mortgage, fixing the leak in the roof, and juggling who's family to have Christmas dinner with. In contrast, John Hardly says "lesbians who by nature and desired appearance do not care to fit a societal norm".... This raises a couple of points. Firstly, what is this societal norm? Secondly, there is no stereotypical lesbian, as there is no stereotypical gay man, straight man, or straight woman. Again, some gay women are very obvious, but I have known women whom I guessed to be gay on first meeting, who turned out to be dyed-in-the-wool straight, and visa-versa. People may be very surprised to learn how many "lipstick lesbians" (as gays call them) there are out there - gay women who share an interest in makeup, hairstyles, clothes etc etc that are considered the preserve of straight women. In answer to the question, how do gays without identifying secondary behaviours get to find each other - they go to clubs, join gay organisations, meet through friends, or get to know each other through regular conversation, like straight folks do.
As to the question of society ignoring lesbians - maybe gay women are ignored more than gay men because women IN GENERAL are ignored - what they do is not important.
Finally, I can't for the life of me understand why some straight men hate gay men so much that they would be violent towards them, sometimes to the point of murdering them. After all, shouldn't a het male welcome gay males because it means fewer men out there competing for women. Here is another thing I dont understand. If a man approaches a women, all she has to do is say "No thanks, I'm not interested" if she aint. If a gay man approaches a straight man in a similar manner, why is it that some men can say "no thanks" but others have to beat the gay guy to a pulp? Can someone who knows anything about this enlighten me please? Just Wondering

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Fortunato
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 09:52 AM

Some years ago a band I was with played a festival. We came on at 2:00pm and Holly Near was on the same stage at 3:00. At the time I didn't heard of her. During our set the relatively full stands began to swell with women, female couples. As I played the guitar through our fiddle tunes I watched this, wondering at the heavy preponderance of women. The stands filled to overflowing on the grass and all around until the audience was 2/3rds women. The newcomers talked among themselves and largely ignored our oldtime music, and slowly the applause at the end of each song came to be mixed with loud talking. Somewhat mystified, we came off stage and hung around until Holly was introduced. Then we understood. She was their own. It was homecoming, a lovefest and mutual validation. I was annoyed they didn't respect our music, but we'd had lots of validation elsewhere. Regards, Fortunato

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:16 AM

Fortunato, it is unfortunate that the audience was so rude, regardless.

Just Wondering, thanks for putting it so well.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,Celtic Soul
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:30 AM

There are at least a few gay men in folk that I can think of, but they all fall under the rather esoteric umbrella of Pagan folk music. The majority of the lesbians I personally know in folk are also Pagans.

Most of the gay men I have ever been close with were more into the club scene and all the music that comes with that. And, as cliche as it sounds, a good majority of them were also really into show tunes.

I think there is a certain amount of our aesthetic taste that comes from what social unit we most identify with. My folk interests come from being a "freak" in high school and being into the works of Tolkien. I loved Jethro Tull and then Medieval music to read my books by. Later, my interest in my Scottish and Irish heritage (which sort of sprang from all the previous, believe it or not) made a clear focus to what folk music I am most attracted to.

I would think that the same likely applies to those who find themselves in a mostly gay or lesbian social setting as well. That their culture helps to shape their tastes.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:45 AM

As a closet lesbian, I find the folk scene a really tempting arena. But I have never come across a gay man. Perhaps its not a closed enough community for them to feel safe in.

Strike the never come across a gay man I've just remembered two years ago in the forest of dean at a christmas "folky do" I met two!

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,Uncle Freddie
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:59 AM

Folk music is often thought of as "rough-hewn" which is an apt description of many lesbians. It fits well with their flannel shirt and short hair cut culture. On the other hand, gay men are drawn to cabaret music and dance music. So, you are not likely to see them standing in a muddy field at a folk music festival.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 12:44 PM

Just Wondering,

I know lots of straight men who have had passes made at them by gays, and none that have beaten a gay to a pulp. Stereotyping goes both ways.

Everyone

Again I say that in general, I do not believe that Gay men are drawn to folk music as entertainment.

If you did not like my use of the word "glitzy", try reading my first post while substituting the word "refined" it isn't as encompassing but you may like the connotation better.

Peg

You said: BTW the very talented and very GAY Ashley MacIsaac was GREAT tonight at the Galway Bay Oyster Festival! ... Gay he may be, but he also brags about urinating on teenaged boys for sexual kicks. I hope his fans like him inspite of his professed sexuality. not because of it.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Matt Woodbury/Mimosa
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 01:44 PM

Ok, first, check this:

Idapalooza

I haven't found gay men running up to me to claim solidarity in the folk circles I'm on the fringe of, they seem to not want to be as visible as I insist on being. One told me he was afraid of getting beat up leaving the Pub where we played at a session. I haven't encountered any violence or threats of violence – yet.

I go there for the music, so I'm not there to "hit on" anyone, do the women at that session get "hit on"? Just counting the ratio of gay men to "straight" at this one session, the numbers are about 1 (that I know of) in 10, just like in the larger society, maybe a little higher.

Recently I learned that there was an e-mail list for the session. I asked to be included 3 weeks ago, and haven't been. Homophobia? I don't know. Maybe other 'catters who go to this one will comment.

Mimosa

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 02:01 PM

A couple thoughts here, first, why do people assume that the allegedly straight men say "no' and then beat up the gay man--in all to many instances, the beatings come after consensual acts--

Contrary to what many of you seem to think, there are many gay men who are part of the folk scene--if you think about it, you realize that relatively few people, regardless of their sexual lifestyle, give a a lot of outward signs of what that lifestyle is--you generally have very little clue as to whether someone is even conventionally married (even when the spouse is fairly close at hand) unless they make a concerted effort to let people know.--Why do you think people who are gay men are any different than anyone else in this regard?

As performers and fans who seem to be gay, well, you don't really know ahout that either--Not all the members of the Village People were gay, even though for a lot of people, no group embodied the above mentioned "glitzy" gay male/disco lifestyle more than they did--and there were many of their fans who had not a clue that Macho Man, YMCA, or In the Navy might have had any overtones--

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: gnu
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 04:04 PM

While I'm waiting for Peg to answer, perhaps marty D could explain his/her concurrence with Peg. I am at a loss...

puzzledandnowanxiousgnu

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: JustWondering
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 04:12 PM

Jack the Sailor - I admit stereotyping goes both ways (read the fourth sentence in my last post), but I dont think I did so here. I said that "some men can say "no thanks" but others have to beat the gay guy to a pulp" - surely you do not consider that stereotyping? I'm interested in the difference between these two responses,and not in maligning either type of man. MTed, a good point about beatings "after consensual sex" I think your other points good also.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 05:06 PM

J.W. . Here is what you said

*** Here is another thing I dont understand. If a man approaches a women, all she has to do is say "No thanks, I'm not interested" if she aint. If a gay man approaches a straight man in a similar manner, why is it that some men can say "no thanks" but others have to beat the gay guy to a pulp? ***

You've made a bunch of stereotypical generalizations here. Including "All a woman has to do is say no" and since only "some" men just say "no thanks" aren't you implying that the "others" which beat gays to a pulp represents the majority. A retorical question like that implies a common social problem against which you are preaching.

Fact is I am sure it depends upon the situation. A man can be rude and lude enough when he hits on a woman to get the response of a slap in the face, mace or worse.

Lets say for example, you are having a few with your mates and a man, puts his hand in your crotch and says something like "Come on sugar. You know you want it." You wouldn't blame a woman for slapping him or maybe even using mace. If a woman shoves him violently away, she is defending herself. If a man does it he is gay bashing. And a man will shove another man away hard! Because men are generally larger stronger and potentially more dangerous than women and adrenaline becomes involved.

I'm not saying it happens this way. I have already told you I have never seen it happen. I have heard guys sayin that they would beat up a gay who made a pass at them. But I think mostly this was akin to you mother telling you she would kill you if she ever caught you smoking.

The moral is. Don't smoke!

Seriously, If you've seen enough gays get beaten up that you think it is a social problem, then you no doubt know the answer to your question. If you haven't, then why ask the question?

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Mr Red
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 05:21 PM

I can think of a couple of regular folkies who never mention their status but it is rather stretching credulity to believe otherwise than "item".
the point is it bothers no-one because it is not an issue to us. And rarely talked of. The people concerned are presumeably aware of the genie staying in the bottle because some anti-social person would eventually stir it if they came out.
It is hard to concentrate on entertaining a crowd where there is one hidden agenda bubbling under. And entertain us they do.
Men dressed all in red rather get a flavour of intolerance from non-folkies so I come with a bit of experience.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Matt Woodbury/Mimosa
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 05:43 PM

I've had close friends who were attacked for walking down the street in their own neighborhoods. Anti-gay violence is a real threat.

Does anybody know Folkies who even talk about beating up gays? I suppose that's a rhetorical question, because I think folkies are more interested in music, as I am, than enforcing societal norms. Still, I'm curious.

As to the perception that gay men aren't participating in folk music, maybe it's just that the gay men who are there don't look and act like the ones on TV and in movies?

Mimosa

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 09:23 PM

My impression has always been that folkies tend to regard societal norms with suspicion--and now that I think about it, doesn't Rise Up Singing have a bunch of songs about same sex relationships? I think there are a lot of gay men associated with one or another aspect of the folk scene, even when it is muddy(seems like there might be a whole group of men who prefer that sort of thing)--so I tend to think this is a non-issue--

The issue of Gay-bashing, on the other hand, is not a non-issue, and I am troubled quite a lot by the fact that people are creating imaginary scenarios here where it would be OK to beat a perceived gay person to a pulp--

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Peg
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:33 PM

gnu; was referring to CH's hypocrisy (he has been a gay basher here in the past and now calls ssuch behavior "immature")

Jack the Sailor: Clinton has also referred to the famous "peeing on boys" silliness. Bear in mind; such activity is illegal, If Ashley was "bragging" about it he was obviously doing so as a joke and for shock value, Apparently you took it a bit too seriously. Seeing the homophobic rhetoric I have in the folk community, it is not all that surprising he would poke fun at it by trying to play into it...

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: marty D
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:49 PM

Darn it Peg, you got in while I was 'cutting and pasting'.

Gnu. Nothing personal towards your good self. I was responding to Peg's earlier post:

"Gay parents can be as wonderful, effective, loving and nurturing as straight parents. I know a lesbian couple who just gave birth yesterday!

What is all this hogwash about the species dying out?

You have gay friends? Sure you do. So does Clinton Hammond."

One of my real pet hates is when people go to great lengths to 'describe' a group they obviously have a lot of trouble with, and then claim to have 'good friends' who are members of that group. It happens occasionally here. Peg just said it first.

marty

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: WyoWoman
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 10:55 PM

Here's a newspaper column I wrote a couple of years ago in Wyoming when the trial was going on for the murderers of Matthew Shepherd.

ww
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Feel Some 'Man-Panic' Coming On?

Some time ago my son got a job as a bus boy in a nice restaurant. He didn't know when he applied for the job that the restaurant was a watering hole for the gay community. He just knew that he was a college student, the pay was good and the hours worked for his schedule.
Since he was a great-looking kid, it was inevitable that sooner or later a gay man would express an interest in him. Over the two years he worked there, several gay men variously flirted with him, hit on him or just looked at him appreciatively as he walked past with his trays of dirty dishes.
Not once did Austin, who is straight, react violently, angrily or even rudely, as far as I know. He simply either ignored the behavior or said politely, "No thanks, I'm straight." The only time he got testy with someone was when the person ignored his refusal and tried to insist. Then, Austin said firmly, "Look, I said I wasn't interested and that's that." And it was.
He did come away from that experience with one abiding conclusion: Most men have no idea what it must be like to be a woman and to be so constantly and openly observed.
This particular bit of family history came to mind this week as I heard repeated references to the "gay panic" defense in the Aaron McKinney murder case. The logic of this defense -- used, apparently, in several cases in addition to this one -- is that the accused becomes so enraged by being "hit on" by a gay man that he flies into a violent rage and "defends" himself by beating his victim senseless, sometimes to the point of killing him.
I can understand the viewpoint of the attorneys who are defending the perpetrator's lives: They want to pull out all the stops and use whatever they can to present the accused's motivations and emotional state in the most sympathetic possible light. Sometimes men do respond with panic and terror at the idea of another man being attracted to them. Sometimes the victims-who-become-perpetrators have been abused and violated by other men at some point in their lifetimes, as was the allegation by McKinney's attorneys, and they "snap" when they are aggressively approached later in life by another man.
I completely understand the impulse.
I just find it odd that we've never heard the converse in any defense of a woman accused of a violent crime against a man. Given the much greater frequency with which women are hassled and ogled and subjected to inappropriate touching, how come we haven't heard a lot of "man-panic" defenses in courtrooms throughout the land? Heck, given that, in this country, one woman in four has been the victim of a sexual assault, how come we don't hear reports daily of women-on-men violent episodes, with women snapping right and left in bars, restaurants and grocery stores throughout the land?
Partly because we live in a land in which the very worst thing is a man being attracted to another man. Only in such a culture could the idea of a "gay panic" defense even arise. Otherwise, men would simply learn what women know, and what secure men like my son know, which is that just because someone invites doesn't mean you've been insulted. It just means they're interested. If you aren't, you can just say, "No, thanks," and go on about your business. The insult is someone who is crude, belittling, hostile, presumptuous or physically aggressive in expressing that interest. Someone who touches you before being invited, someone who won't take "no" for an answer. These someones can come in either sex.
It's an interesting conundrum of modern life, isn't it? How to express interest without being taken the wrong way, how to start something to see where it goes without being accused of something you don't intend, how to introduce yourself to a stranger when you have no idea how that introduction is going to be received.
We have to figure out some way to do this, otherwise we'll all just sit around making mooney eyes at each other and no one will ever end up with anyone. But it's a delicate process, requiring respect, humor and at least some measure of dignity on the part of the invitor and the invitee.
(The best example I've heard was from a friend of mine who traveled to Ireland for a vacation by herself. The day she arrived and was walking down the streets of Dublin trying to find her hotel, an adorable Irishman stopped in his tracks as she walked his way, dropped to his knee, doffed his hat - tweed, of course - and said, "Lady, I would die for you." They became, um, friends. But that's another story.)
Then again, if panic and rage are appropriate responses to someone flirting with us or making a move on us, and if acting on that panic and rage is somehow excusable or makes a violent attack more comprehensible, then the door ought to swing both ways. But woe unto this world if man-panic takes its rightful place in the Hall of Useful Defenses.
The dating scene could get really ugly.

Copyright 2000/K.C. Compton

Line Breaks <br> added.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: WyoWoman
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:02 PM

Whoops. Sorry about the formatting problem. Anyway, I meant to use this one. (If this is more than you want to read, skip over. I apologize for the overload, but the column raised some good discussion when I ran it in our newspaper ... )

ww ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Examining our prejudices in the light of recent events
By K.C. Compton

As with most others in our Wyoming community, I walked around in the days and months following the Matthew Shepard killing with some part of me asking repeatedly, "Why?"
Why was Matthew tormented and killed? But on a deeper level I kept -- keep -- asking, "Why are gay men so often singled out? Why are so many men so nutty about homosexuality?" The more I've considered it the more I believe that this is an issue that goes to the heart of what men believe maleness to be, a prejudice that operates on such a level it's almost a part of human plasma.
In examining the issue, I always feel like Star Trek's Mr. Spock. When faced with a pesky human dilemma, Spock would furrow his brow in that deeply quizzical way and say, "This is not logical."
Our cultural antipathy toward gay men is just not logical. If it were, women would be the ones with problems about gays. Gay men are unavailable for the sexual attentions of females. If logic were to prevail, this would mean that straight men ought to, on some level, be happy that at least a few rivals have been removed from the pool of competitors. Women might understandably be frustrated because they have fewer potential suitors, and might feel rejected by men not interested in their sexual availability.
This is not the case. For moral and religious reasons, some women have problems tolerating gays and lesbians. But the people leading the charge against gays are always men. The people seeking gay men out in bars for the sole purpose of beating the living daylights out of them are always men. Not all men, but always men.
And other men, decent men who would never go so far as to seek out and attack a gay man, are deeply uncomfortable in the presence of homosexual men. Even if they want to be, even if intellectually they embrace a live-and-let-live philosophy, few straight men are completely comfortable around gays.
For some, the discomfort and fear boil down to assumptions (not necessarily correct) about the sexual practices of gay men. For others, this discomfort goes even deeper, to an absolute terror that their own bodies might be violated.
To the men in that group, I'd say, I can understand your worry. Welcome to the world of women where, statistics show us, you have about a bazillion percent greater reason to worry about being raped. Male-male rapes do happen: male-female rapes happen so often they hardly even make headlines any more. The most recent statistics show that one in four American women has been the victim of sexual assault. One in four. Think about that.
One of the perpetrators in the Matthew Shepard case said that he responded the way he did because Shepard "came onto him" in the bar and "embarrassed him."
If this were just cause, my past would be littered with bodies, as would that of just about every other woman I know. I have rarely been in a bar or restaurant by myself without some man coming along and hitting on me. This has also happened in movies, in restaurants, in the produce section of the grocery store. It isn't that I'm a ravishing beauty whose siren song is simply irresistible, it's just that I'm an unaccompanied woman. That's all it takes. That's why we of the female persuasion so often hang out in herds. Welcome to the wonderful world of women.
But the weirdness about gays goes even deeper. It's about the terror of being a sissy. Being a sissy, which boys are trained to despise from the time they are introduced to language -- possibly earlier -- is the worst thing that could happen to a boy. It means being weak, it means being helpless, it means being vulnerable to males stronger and more dominant than you. Dominating and picking on the weak ones is as much a part of our genetic heritage as the fight-or-flight response.
We have both an animal and an angelic nature, and part of the animal, survival-of-the-fittest legacy is to dominate, destroy, run off and sometimes even devour the less "fit" -- the weak, the infirm and sometimes just the young.
Part of the purpose of religion, culture and other "civilizing" influences is to counter these impulses. We learn to behave ourselves and not let crocodile-brain run the show. We learn to override our worst impulses and replace them with our best -- to be generous instead of selfish, gentle instead of brutal, reasoned instead of aggressive.
But in the culture of "boy," there remains that predisposition against weakness -- and anything girlish is seen as precisely that. In the psyche of many straight men, gay equals weak equals despicable. They respond to the stereotype of homosexuality, see it as "sissy" and feel they must obliterate it or at least escape it. They neglect to understand that courage and strength exist among gay men in the precise same proportion as in straight.
When Matthew Shepard was pummeled to death, it wasn't Matthew of whom his persecutors were so terrified. It was their own weakness, their own sissiness -- weaklings attacking one they perceived as the weakest.
Sadly, in prison, they'll have unending opportunities to explore the full dimensions of this particular terror.
Copyright 1999/K.C. Compton

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:37 PM

Bravo, WW! Beautifully written and superbly true. The one point I think you may not have touched on sufficiently is how much of the violent anti-gay behavior is perpetrated by men who may sense some homosexual tendencies in themselves, and are terrified by that realization. (Some such tendencies are probably present in many comfortably heterosexual men -- it doesn't mean they are obsessed by them, or act on them, or even pay much attention to them.) I think it's more than just the fear of being weak. But we can discuss that; you may have been saying it and I just didn't hear it. Aside from that, I think you've hit it perfectly.

I remember about 18 years ago visiting a friend of mine from college, who had come out in graduate school; we'd kept in touch over the years. Jim and I went out to dinner one night with his partner and four or five other men, all gay. Even though they all knew I was straight, I could feel myself being checked out. I had a very strong sense at that point of what it felt like to be a woman and be the subject of that kind of sexual scrutiny by men. I don't envy you women in the least.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:02 AM

Mark,

Do you mean to say that you've never noticed when you were being checked out by women? To paraphrase a famous person, the only thing worse than being checked out is not being checked out--

On to more serious subjects, there is something that WW didn't talk about, and that is the pecking order of abuse that exists in a very real way for many men--simply put, a lot of men divide the world into the people who can beat up on them and the people that they can beat on--

Fathers, older brothers, bosses, neighborhood bullies, cops, members of the high school football team, kids from wealthier families--for some people, the list of eligible abusers can be awefully large, but there are always a few victims below them on the list-- "faggots", "niggers", "kikes", "spics" and other perjoratives aren't only insults, they are markers that are used to indicate who can be targetted--and of course, women and children tend to be at the very bottom of the pecking order--

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:47 AM

Great stuff Pansy Rue!!!

Ted and Mark both hit a point, so to speak, that has always made think too. The few times I've been hit on by gay men, I've felt "honored" in a way......like, I'm not on any top million list of attractive people! I mean I'm honored when anybody hits on me, male or female. I guess that bothers me because it makes it hard to understand the "fear" many have about being approached by their own sex and the general feeling that it challenges them in some way.

How the hell did the world ever get so fucked up that the offer of sharing love is threatening and intimidating?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 04:44 AM

Don't you guys ever sleep? (It's only 10:45 PM here...) Yes, M.Ted, I have, but there is a very real difference in the way men and women send those signals. I think you're exactly right, though, when you talk about the "pecking order." That sense of hierarchy, and the tendency to appease those above us and bully those below, seems to be "hard-wired" into our brains, more so in males than in females--though each of us modifies it, or reacts to it, or represses it, or acts it out, in a different way, based on our other personality characteristics, socialization, experience, etc.

And, 'Spaw, I think your reaction is a healthy one, and is due to your being comfortable with who you are. (I was going to make a joke there, but I'll just let it stand.) It's the people who are afraid they might be somebody they don't want to be who are the most threatened. But you know, I'm not so sure that these encounters are always "offers of sharing love." Sometimes they're opening salvos in the war for status or power...often when the person making the "offer" feels vulnerable or afraid and needs to establish his/her "position". And that's often where the trouble starts.

Man, I don't know about you, but I need a song right about now. Pete Seeger should do...

Old devil time, I'm gonna fool you now
Old devil time, You'd like to bring me down
When I feel low, my lovers gather round
And help me rise to fight you one more time

Old devil pain, you've often pinned me down
You thought I'd cry and beg you for the end
At that very time, my lovers gathered round
And helped me rise to fight you one more time

Old devil fear, you with your icy hands
Old devil fear, you'd like to freeze me cold
When I'm afraid, my lover gather round
And help me rise to fight you one more time

Old devil hate, I knew you long ago
Before I learned the poison in your breath
Now when I hear your lies, my lovers gather round
And help me rise to fight you one more time

No storm nor fire can ever beat us down
No wind that blows but carries us further on
And you who fear, oh lovers gather round
And we will rise to sing it one more time^^^

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: John Hardly
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 09:04 AM

I certainly agree with the concept that a secure man wouldn't be intimidated by a gay proposal. Actually, if I might be brutally frank in a way that will risk me coming across as arrogant----I have always been a very attractive boy/man (I guess you could ask Big Mick as he's the only 'catter who's met me....and I think he's secure enough in his manhood to confirm my assertion). I had my first gay "proposal" when I was an 11 year old and didn't even know what sex was---I ran. I do Art Fairs in two cities that are very attended by their gay population and have gotten fan mail from gays after the show expressing an appreciation for me :>). I would say that, like catspaw says, Though I might be as uncomfortable as I am if a woman flirted with me (as a married man), I guess I'm flattered that ANYONE still finds me attractive after 25 years of marriage to the same woman (who after a lifetime of farts, barf, B.O. etc. has a somewhat more realistic perspective on how truly attractive I am).

Having said that...
I wish there was a winsome, self-effacing, gentle way to put this so that I wouldn't come across as an arguementative prick but...

I am so DAMN tired of the cliche' along the lines of, "why should it matter (what difference does it make) who one should care to share love with?".

Love and sex are not synonyms.

sex between a rapist and his victim is not love
sex between a 12 year old boy and his 6 year old sister is not love
sex between a Hoosier and his sheep is not love
sex between a president and his intern is not love
sex between a boss and his intimidated underling is not love.

I think the list could go on but I think we could all even agree tha sex between consenting adults isn't always love.......it often has MUCH more to do with POWER than love.......even in good relationships from time to time.

So....the cliche' makes a nice, emotional arguement ender...but it holds little truth. It is usually just a good way to characterize the "other side" as unreasonable.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 09:29 AM

Mark and John.....Good point on the power end of things and you are certainly correct. I didn't mean to come off so naive as to equate love and sex as the same thing....I don't. The point is still the same though.........So many things tie into personal relationships and the human animal adds much to the mix.

Allen Sherman once wrote a very humorous, but spot-on piece about animals and sex versus the human animal and sex. One of the things he used in discussing the problems of humans and the power play end of sex and why we have so many more problems than say, an aardvark, is because we indulge in "Thinkery-Fuckery" instead of just "fuckery." Hilarious work, but he made some excellent points.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:05 PM

Mark, I used to sleep, but gave it up(along with sex) when I became a parent--

John Hardly, I am not sure what your point is--are you OK when men flirt with you, but uncomfortable when women flirt with you? And why are you talking about farting? Spaw has the franchise--

Spaw,

Are we to take this to mean that we should be more like Aardvarks?

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 12:38 PM

Well, ya' gotta' envy those fingernails doncha'?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:35 PM

I'd mention the snouts and the beady little eyes, but I am afraid someone would start a thread calling me a specieist!!

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: John Hardly
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:48 PM

M.Ted,

I'm okay when anyone flirts wit...



...hey.....just a doggone minnit here. You comin' on to me too???!

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: LR Mole
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 02:03 PM

As in so many areas, life in a stereotyped world would be so much simpler without these dratted human beings around to disprove what we know. Some of my bestfriends are human beings. Some of my best friends are me, though.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 04:02 PM

No one who asks about flatulence is flirting--

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: JustWondering
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 09:14 AM

Good posts, interesting and thoughtful. I think you guys have clarified some of the issues. Sad to report that in the last couple of days, in a town near where I live, a gay man was beaten up. This is the story as was reported on the news last night: two men sitting at a bus stop waiting for a bus, holding hands, in the middle of the day. Man and woman across the street start hurling insults. Straight man eventually walks across road, and, urged on by the woman, proceeds to beat one of the gay men such that he ended up in hospital. Provocative gay behaviour? I think not. What about the role of the straight woman? Perhaps she was unsure of her boyfriends sexuality too??!!

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GeorgeH
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 09:40 AM

GUEST,dougboywonder: you forget to mention the persuasion Tom Robinson used to persuade his Sidmouth audience to join in with "Glad to be gay" . . (The Eton sagas). A great concert!!

Now, have we got onto Folk Musicians and Gender Change . . (which second half used to be a speciality of the Computer Industry here in Cambridge, UK) . .

Jokes aside, it's good to see a rational discussion of sexuality. And good to find something on which Clinton H and I seem to be in complete agreement.

G.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: blt
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 03:40 AM

This has been an interesting thread, not the least of all because queer issues are raised here so little.

As a lesbian in the folk world, I have to say that it has been somewhat frustrating to be regarded as only fitting in to the "Women's Music" scene. I write songs about my own experiences and talk about my life on stage but I have not tried to book myself solely through the Women's Music network. I have met gay men who play folk music, some are performers, some aren't. Some identify more as singer/songwriters.

Anti-queer violence is alive and well, a transgendered woman was killed in the Portland area recently--she was severely beaten by "a blunt instrument" when the man she was with realized she wasn't physically a woman. She was also a woman of color, which raises other issues.

My vision of folk music is that it sings very directly and honestly about the lives of the folk, whoever those folk are. Gay, lesbian, heterosexual, bisexual, transgendered--each of us has a story to tell, some of us tell that story from a different vantage point. Perhaps the stereotype of a folksinger is to blame--who can exist as a stereotype, it's one dimensional and dehumanizing. I think I've written this before, but one experience I had stands out in terms of stupidity: when auditioning live for a cafe (there was a time when audtioning live was how it was done), I told the manager that I was a lesbian feminist. His reaction was to ask me if I was going to sing any "dick-hating" songs. I got to use this during the gig (which, to his credit, he gave me), as I could comment on stage that his name was Richard (which it was)so maybe he had some kind of complex.

The hardest aspect for me of being queer in the cyberland of folk is being invisible. Many of the threads on this forum are dominated by lots of swagger and bluster, a kind of electronic testosterone, which holds no interest for me. I look for lyrics that have a female protangonist, and I guess I look for threads in the same way. I know it's sometimes discouraging to feel that folk music is dominated by a hetero male perspective, which seems to include competitiveness and the overwhelming need to be right. I've had more male performers comment to me that I fingerpick "like a guy"--however, if there ever was an art form made for lesbians, it's fingerpicking.

blt

blt

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 03:38 PM

I would have thought the paper and comb would come naturally as well ................. *G*

Murray

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: dougboywonder
Date: 08 Sep 01 - 03:45 PM

In reference to "beating gay men to a pulp", I, though not actually gay, still regularly get plenty of abuse, and occational "beating to a pulp" (something which was almost daily in my school-days) living, as I do, in central Birmingham. My crime is being tall, thin and wearing clothes that actually fit me (i.e. very thin ones), I apparantly "just have the look".

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: JedMarum
Date: 15 Sep 01 - 10:42 AM

I hadn't participated in this thread when it was active some days back, but Guinnesschick told me about it. I hae just a couple of comments; Do men in folkie circles talk viloence about gay men? I've never heard violence talk - I've usually heard talk that expresses attitudes of acceptance - I've heard humorous comments, like you might about any other social group that is based upon acceptance, but I've sometimes heard attempted humor that is NOT accepting. I think folkies generally attempt to be quite accepting of variety in people's sexual orientation.

Matt - I am certain your attempt to get on the YOBB Email list has been hampered only by a lack of competent organization. I am not sure if Karen is even on the list and I have forwarded some to her. There isn't anyone I know who is actually maintaining a list; I've simply used the reply all feature.

The other thing you need to know is that you are certainly one of that session's favorites! Your skill on the instrument, your magnificent voice and presentation, and your participation in the group are all very much appreciated - and appreciated by everyone in the group. I hope you know that.

By the way the YOBB list has been mostly just humorous banter about the previous session or reminders of the upcoming session. I'll forward them to you as I get them, until you get added to the list.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 06:14 PM

For what it's worth, the late Dave Van Ronk was arrested for his part in the historic Stonewall Rebellion of 1969, when patrons fought back a police invasion of a gay men's bar in New York City. That marked the beginning of the activist Gay & Lesbian Rights Movement as we know it today in the USA. There had long been G&L organizations, but Stonewall marked the moment from which there was no turning back. Think of it as the liberation of the Bastille, the storming of the Winter Palace, or the Easter Rising.

I don't really know much about Dave's sexual orientation, other than that he was married at least twice, each time to a woman. But when it came to getting his licks in -- against the cops, that is -- he was on the front lines.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: MAG
Date: 15 Feb 02 - 06:41 PM

Any fellow Ferron fans know where I could find a copy of "Testimony?"

MAG

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 12:26 AM

No word from Ferron Fan #1 perhaps they died from An Early Frost

No Loss.....the bell didn't toll.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 12:55 AM

MAG, do you want a copy of just the song or of the whole tape by the same name? You can get it on a new 2 CD set, with a bunch of her other stuff, that she was finally able to buy back and get control of, at Ladyslipper Music. If you ask Max or Dick for that specific set, I'll bet they could get it, though, and Mudcat would get a cut.

If you want just the song, with lyrics, let me know and I could send you a file.

kat

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 09:02 AM

Ferron's "Testimony" LP is currently up for auction on Ebay. Item no. 1513494525. The bidding closes 2/18/02.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,MAG at work
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 12:00 PM

thank you thank you all: I lent my copy to someone years ago and never got it back; had a request in on zshops and got nada. I am so glad for the reissues; last time I check w/ Dick Testimony was unavailable.

OK Dick, I'll be calling to add this to my order. You do still have my last order, yes?

MAG

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: RichM
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 12:29 PM

Tolerance---->acceptance---->caring It's been a slow progession for humanity in letting go of ancient prejudices. Homosexuality is slowly entering the first stage. Sadly, it's much worse in other societies: In Egypt, some 50 men were arrested during the past year and tried for being at a gay party. In an interview last night with the head of Egypt's human rights organization, he said frankly that there was nothing his organization could do to protest this, or to help the men. He said that to show support would be to invite the destruction of human rights activity in that country!
The saddest part was that he said there were only 30 to 50 such activists in Egypt!

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 03:21 PM

Rick Lalibert and Andy Buck, known as Rick & Andy, are two gay men who are very well known around the NY-NJ folk scene. They don't hide who they are, but their performances are not necessarily gay oriented, unless they are appearing at a gay oriented venue. Then they let it all hang out, musically that is. Otherwise, they are just two guys who sing wonderful harmonies. Their "Wild Mountain Thyme" is among the finest I have ever heard, and I have heard quite a lot!

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,Lyle
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 05:03 PM

Nother point of view. WyoWoman said a lot of what I was going to say about treatment of G/L in general.

But getting back to the original question: I've lived all over this country. Whatever kind of individual you might be, the more wide-open the spaces in which you live, the more likely your traits are well known. That's true for all traits, but I'll restrict it here to sexual orientation. That means that in the wide open spaces of the mid west, if you attend a folk music festival, lots of people will know about it and associate you with folk music. If you are G/L, more people generally know that in these parts of the country, too. (Kat has made that case better than I about Wyoming)

Now take the second part of this situation. I believe it would be much, much more accurate to say that Lesbians are more TOLERATED than accepted at any folk gathering. That simple change of words speaks volumes in terms of treatment of individuals. For one, means that Lesbians tend to be left alone, while Gays tend to be treated with open contempt.

Put these two situations together, (open spaces and tolerated) and it might have a lot to do with the original question.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Joe_F
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 06:46 PM

My understanding is that Dave Van Ronk just happened to be passing by on an occasion when cops were beating people up. All honor to him, and personally I found him easy to look at as well as listen to, but FWIW he was probably straight.

I would be pleased, however, to see an authoritative account of the incident Janice mentions.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Feb 02 - 09:44 PM

According to this article, van Ronk was beat up by the cops as they arrested him. (Don't be put off by the astrology heading, the article is about Stonewall and if you use the Find function, the bit about van Ronk is about half way down.) please click here

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Joe_F
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 06:57 PM

Thank you for the link, katlaughing. It is not very clearly written, but it *seems* to call Van Ronk "the gay". But that might well be a typo for "the guy". In any case, it makes it clear that he was an active participant in that he threw some coins at the cops.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 07:52 PM

You're welcome, Joe. I should have looked a bit further, but I was in a hurry. You can read part of an eyewitness account by Village Voice reporter, Howard Smith, by clicking here and using the find function or scrolling about half way down. He does write about van Ronk and the coins, etc.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 08:02 PM

" Gays tend to be treated with open contempt."

....well, some places, perhaps. There is one fine musician I know (and some of you do too) who came to events for years around our group, with only occasional musings as to why he never seemed to have female companions....then one year he arrived with his male companion...There were brief murmurings as it sunk in-- then it was off to the music, no questions asked. They have stopped by several times now, and it is just a minor point of interest to everyone.

That's the way it should be,,,

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 17 Feb 02 - 11:12 PM

Dave Vank Ronk's sexuality is irrelevant. What is important is that he stood with those resisting police oppression, even if his only revolutionary act was to throw a handful of coins at the cops.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 13 May 03 - 08:31 PM

FYI, even if it's not all folk:

2003 OUTMUSIC AWARDS TO BE PRESENTED JUNE 1ST AT NYC'S KNITTING FACTORY

On Sunday, June 1st, winners of the 2003 OUTMUSIC AWARDS (OMAs) will be announced at the Knitting Factory, 74 Leonard Sreet, New York City, at 1:30 PM. The event will be co-hosted by women's music legend Alix Dobkin and singer/songwriter Jamie Anderson, and will honor gay music pioneers Ron Romanovsky and Paul Phillips with the OUTMUSIC Heritage Award. The 2003 Outstanding Support OMA will be presented to music journalist Gregg Shapiro, and Special Recognition Awards will honor Amazon Country - the first and longest-running US lesbian radio program - and LGBT hip-hop activist Judge "Dutchboy" Muscat. Live performances by selected nominees will be featured.

The 2003 OMAs are open to the public. $35. general admission tickets are now available on a first-come first-served basis at http://www.outmusic.com

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 May 03 - 10:02 PM

Thanks, Janice! I love Romonovsky & Philips. Good to see they are getting the award.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 May 03 - 10:31 PM

Ever sang this song?


Like them or not, Peter, Paul, and Mary have.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 13 May 03 - 11:16 PM

You know...



Mentioning MINK......I was told of a study regarding overpopulated, populations....the species of mink examined turned to homosesuality....under crowded conditions.

As small as New Jersey is....Janice have you considered moving to Maine?

Sincerely,

Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: s&r
Date: 14 May 03 - 02:29 AM

A couple of years ago we played for a ceilidh where the audience /dancers were almost all same sex couples. Our caller was blissfully ignorant of this, and went around the groups of dancers during the "practice" re-arranging the couples to be m/f, to their seething and embarrassed resentment. By the third dance the floor was empty....

Does anyone have an alternative to "ladies forward, gentlemen back" type of instruction?

Re the differing attitudes between male and female homosexuality I was told that it was A. because male homosexuality and spilling of seed etc was forbidden in the Bible, and B. because Queen Victoria would never have believed Lesbians existed, so the laws forbidding homosexual behaviour applied only to men (in Britain it was an imprisonable offence )

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 14 May 03 - 06:58 AM

Maine? Now that's something to think about. Does Kirstie Alley still live there? She's kind of cute, in her own weird way. The only trouble is I'm already out of New Jersey and living in western New York State.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: axman664
Date: 14 May 03 - 04:51 PM

NY Times had a very interesting article concerning this issue, entitled "Queer as Folk", back in August of 2002:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20814FC3B5E0C7B8DDDA10894DA404482

Unfortunately, you will need to pay $2.95 to read beyond the second paragraph. Sheez. Maybe we Mudcatters can take up a collection to view it, because it is a good read...although Dar Williams took offense to it, because it suggested that she was remaining mysterious about her orientation so as to consolidate a solid fan base that would include many lesbians (she has since married a man).

I also seem to remember it mentioning that folk music is the unofficial genre-of-choice for lesbians, and disco the genre-of-choice for gay men.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Marion
Date: 14 May 03 - 06:21 PM

No need to take up a collection, the article axman mentioned is in this post. And the rest of the thread discusses it, more or less.

S&R, there's a weekly gay square dance in my town, but I've never been to it so I don't know how the calling is done. Maybe "righties" and "lefties" would work? (Or since somebody's gotta say it... "pitchers" and "catchers"?)

Marion

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 05:36 PM

HAPPY GAY PRIDE DAY 2003!

And here's the Village Voice (July 3, 1969) account of how it all started 34 years ago:


View from Outside

Gay Power Comes to Sheridan Square

by Lucian Truscott IV

Sheridan Square this weekend looked like something from a William Burroughs novel as the sudden specter of "gay power" erected its brazen head and spat out a fairy tale the likes of which the area has never seen.

The forces of faggotry, spurred by a Friday night raid on one of the city's largest, most popular and longest lived gay bars, the Stonewall Inn, rallied Saturday night in an unprecedented protest against the raid and continued Sunday night to assert presence, possibility, and pride until the early hours of Monday morning. "I'm a faggot, and I'm proud of it!" "Gay Power!" "I like boys!" — these and many other slogans were heard all three nights as the show of force by the city's finery met the force of the city's finest. The result was a kind of liberation, as the gay brigade emerged from the bars, back rooms, and bedrooms of the village and became street people.

                                       * * *

Cops entered the Stonewall for the second time in a week just before midnight on Friday. It began as a small raid — only two patrolmen, two detectives, and two policewomen were involved. But as the patrons trapped inside were released one by one, a crowd started to gather on the street. It was initially a festive gathering, composed mostly of Stonewall boys who were waiting around for friends still inside or to see what was going to happen. Cheers would go up as favorites would emerge from the door, strike a pose, and swish by the detective with a "Hello there, fella." The stars were in their element. Wrists were limp, hair was primped, and reactions to the applause were classic. "I gave them the gay power bit, and they loved it, girls." "Have you seen Maxine? Where is my wife — I told her not to go far."

Suddenly the paddywagon arrived and the mood of the crowd changed. Three of the more blatant queens — in full drag — were loaded inside, along with the bartender and doorman, to a chorus of catcalls and boos from the crowd. A cry went up to push the paddywagon over, but it drove away before anything could happen. With its exit, the action waned momentarily. The next person to come out was a dyke, and she put up a struggle — from car to door to car again. It was at that moment that the scene became explosive. Limp wrists were forgotten. Beer cans and bottles were heaved at the windows, and a rain of coins descended on the cops. At the height of the action, a bearded figure was plucked from the crowd and dragged inside. It was Dave Van Ronk, who had come from the Lion's Head to see what was going on. He was later charged with having thrown an object at the police.

Three cops were necessary to get Van Ronk away from the crowd and into the Stonewall. The exit left no cops on the street, and almost by signal the crowd erupted into cobblestone and bottle heaving. The reaction was solid, they were "pissed." The trashcan I was standing on was nearly yanked out from under me as a kid tried to grab it for use in the windowsmashing melee. From nowhere came an uprooted parking meter — used as a battering ram on the Stonewall door. I heard several cries of "Let's get some gas," but the blaze of flame which soon appeared in the window of the Stonewall was still a shock. As the wood barrier behind the glass was beaten open, the cops inside turned a firehose on the crowd. Several kids took the opportunity to cavort in the spray, and their momentary glee served to stave off what was rapidly becoming a full-scale attack. By the time the fags were able to regroup forces and come up with another assault, several carloads of police reinforcements had arrived, and inminutes the streets were clear.

A visit to the Sixth Precinct revealed the fact that 13 persons had been arrested on charges which ranged from Van Ronk's felonious assault of a police officer to the owners' illegal sale and storage of alcoholic beverages without a license. Two police officers had been injured in the battle with the crowd. By the time the last cop was off the street Saturday morning, a sign was going up announcing that the Stonewall would reopen that night. It did.

                                       * * *

Protest set the tone for "gay power" activities on Saturday. The afternoon was spent boarding up the windows of the Stonewall and chalking them with signs of the new revolution. "We are Open," "There is all college boys and girls in here," "Support Gay Power — C'mon in, girls," "Insp. Smyth looted our: money, jukebox, cigarette mach, telephones, safe, cash register, and the boys tips." Among the slogans were two carefully clipped and bordered copies of the Daily News story about the previous night's events, which was anything but kind to the gay cause.

The real action Saturday was that night in the street. Friday night's crowd had returned and was being led in "gay power" cheers by a group of gay cheerleaders. "We are the Stonewall girls/ We wear our hair in curls/ We have no underwear/ We show our pubic hairs!" The crowd was gathered across the street from the Stonewall and was growing with the additions of onlookers, Eastsiders, and rough street people who saw a chance for a little action. Those dress had changed from Friday night's gayery to Saturday night street clothes, the scene was a command performance for queens. If Friday night had been pick-up night, Saturday was date night! Hand-holding, kissing, and posing accented each of the cheers with homosexual liberation that had appeared only fleetingly on the street before. One-liners were as practiced as if they had been used for years. "I just want you all to know," quipped a platinum blond with obvious glee, "that sometimes being homosexual is a big pain in the ass." Another allowed as how he had become a "left-deviationist." And on and on.

The quasi-political tone of the street scene was looked upon with disdain by some, for radio news announcements about the previous night's "gay power" chaos had brought half of Fire Island's Cherry Grove running back to home base to see what they had left behind. The generation gap existed even here. Older boys had strained looks on their faces and talked in concerned whispers as they watched the up-and-coming generation take being gay and flaunt it before the masses.

As the "gay power" chants on the street rose in frequency and volume, the crowd grew restless. The front of the Stonewall was losing its attraction, despite efforts by the owners to talk the crowd back into the club. "C'mon in and see what da pigs done to us," they growled. "We're honest businessmen here. We're American-born boys. We run a legitimate joint here. There ain't nuttin bein' done wrong in dis place. Everybody come and see."

The people on the street were not to be coerced. "Let's go down the street and see what's happening girls," someone yelled.



And down the street went the crowd, smack into the Tactical Patrol Force, who had been called earlier to disperse the crowd and were walking west on Christopher from Sixth Avenue. Formed in a line, the TPF swept the crowd back to the corner of Waverly Place, where they stopped. A stagnant situation there brought on some gay tomfoolery in the form of a chorus line facing the line of helmeted and club-carrying cops. Just as the line got into a full kick routine, the TPF advanced again and cleared the crowd of screaming gay powerites down Christopher to Seventh Avenue. The street and park were then held from both ends, and no one was allowed to enter — naturally causing a fall-off in normal Saturday night business, even at the straight Lion's Head and 55. The TPF positions in and around the square were held with only minor incident — one busted head and a number of scattered arrests — while the cops amused themselves by arbitrarily breaking up small groups of people up and down the avenue. The crowd finally dispersed around 3:30 a.m. The TPF had come and they had conquered, but Sunday was already there, and it was to be another story.

                                       * * *

Sunday night was a time for watching and rapping. Gone were the "gay power" chants of Saturday, but not the new and open brand of exhibitionism. Steps, curbs, and the park provided props for what amounted to the Sunday fag follies as returning stars from the previous night's performances stopped by to close the show for the weekend.

It was slow going. Around 1 a.m. a non-helmeted version of the TPF arrived and made a controlled and very cool sweep of the area, getting everyone moving and out of the park. That put a damper on posing and primping, and as the last buses were leaving Jerseyward, the crowd grew thin. Allen Ginsberg and Taylor Mead walked by to see what was happening and were filled in on the previous evenings' activities by some of the gay activists. "Gay power! Isn't that great!" Allen said. "We're one of the largest minorities in the country — 10 percent, you know. It's about time we did something to assert ourselves."

Ginsberg expressed a desire to visit the Stonewall — "You know, I've never been in there" — and ambled on down the street, flashing peace signs and helloing the TPF. It was a relief and a kind of joy to see him on the street. He lent an extra umbrella of serenity to the scene with his laughter and quiet commentary on consciousness, "gay power" as a new movement, and the various implications of what had happened. I followed him into the Stonewall, where rock music blared from speakers all around a room that might have come right from a Hollywood set of a gay bar. He was immediately bouncing and dancing wherever he moved.

He left, and I walked east with him. Along they way he described how things used to be. "You know, the guys there were so beautiful — they've lost that wounded look that fags all had 10 years ago." It was the first time I had heard that crowd described as beautiful.

We reached Cooper Square, and as Ginsberg turned to head toward home, he waved and yelled, "Defend the fairies!" and bounced on across the square. He enjoyed the prospect of "gay power" and is probably working on a manifesto for the movement right now. Watch out. The liberation is under way.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 06:18 PM

Same to you, Janice! Nice to see you here again!!

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 10:22 AM

I just learned that Amazon Country, the USA's longest running lesbian-feminist-women's music radio program has been canceled by its host station, WXPN in Philadelphia.

What is WXPN's reason for canceling a show that has been on the air since 1974 and has won numerous broadcasting awards? Well, WXPN management has stated that they are interested in making more air time available for "family oriented" radio programs. Apparently lesbians and/or feminist and/or women don't live in families. Or else their families just don't count.

WXPN, a listener-supported station affiliated with the University of Pennsylvania, broadcasts at 88.5 FM. Amazon Country can still be heard for the next two weeks on Sunday, from 9 to 10 PM Eastern Time. Then it's "Hit the road, Jack!" Or should I say "Hit the road, Jackie!"?

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Jul 03 - 12:43 PM

So they've caved into the far right? Are there any protests to which we could contribute our comments? That is really arrogant and stupid of them.

On a more positive note, we watched the debut of a new show on Bravo, last night, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy featuring the "Fab Five." It was a mix of Changing Rooms, What Not to Wear, gourmet cooking, and grooming for their "victim." It was really fun and well done. The first heterosexual guy they helped was an artist for whom they'd set up his first gallery show. His apt. was a disaster, so in one day, they redid the whole thing, taught him how to make some great finger food for the showing that night, took him to get his hair styled, advised him on buying a bunch of new clothes, and gave him tips on "schmoozin'" at the show to best show his art, plus they had "takeaway" cards designed and printed for people interested in his art. They did a total makeover of him, while still keeping him comfortable and essentially himself, nothing phony or put-upon. He seemed really pleased and had an art critic give him rave reviews.

The second guy was married with kids on Long Island who wanted to surprise his wife with a b-day party, including a makeover for their house and him. It was equally as fun and engaging.

I noticed next Tuesday, Bravo is also going to premiere a reality show for gay dating, BUT I don't like the sounds of it, as it will be one guy choosing from 15 others, some of whom are straight. I remember the heartaches my brother and friends have gone through agonising over whether someone was gay or straight and falling in love with a straight guy and how hard that was to get over. I don't think the show should exploit that.

Sorry for the slight thread drift.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 18 Jul 03 - 12:31 PM

This weekend WXPN in Philadelphia is presenting its annual Singer-Songwriters' show. The lesbian and gay community will be out in force to demonstrate outside, from 12 noon to 2 pm on Sunday, July 20. For information you can e-mail: [e-mail]

Taking Amazon Country off the air after 29 years, and replacing it with some so-called "family oriented" garbage means that even the so-called "listener sponsored" radio stations are being Bogarted by the homophobic religious right. If we, and I mean all of us, don't stand up to this crap now, they will crush us one-by-one like one of Sharon's bulldozers going through a grove of olive trees!

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,Murkey
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 02:12 PM

Interesting thread. As a 21 year old folkie guy in England I get very frustrated by the lack of gay presence in the folk scene. I have never related to the gay scene which really is the fulfillment of all the stereotypes that exist about gay men, being full of desperate, sleazy, shallow guys being bomabarded by godawful chessy music (this is especially the case in small towns which can't offer the variety of somewhere like London, which at least has a few gay rock nights).

Ironic as it sounds, the gay scene has become so ingrained in its current form that it is actually very difficult to be an individual and be into anything but high camp and one night stands!
Every year I go to Sidmouth Folk Festival and stare dreamily at the sexy, hippy dreadlocked guys. Yeah I know, logic dictates there must be other gay guys into folk, but they're bloody hard to find!

I guess the problem is identifying myself as gay. Whilst violence can be a problem, a greater issue is the little differences in how people treat me. I have a lot of male blokey friends there, and whilst I doubt they would stop talking to me if they knew I was gay, I know from experience that it tends to change the way I'm treated. There's always a bit more distance and iciness, like they're constantly watching what they say! There's few enough young folkies, and I don't have any living near me as regular friends, so when I go to festivals the last thing I want to do is tell a bunch of near strangers I'm gay. But if I don't tell anyone, how can I meet anyone?

This year I even posted a question on outintheuk.com several months in advance asking if any other gay guys were going to Sidmouth, and only one (considerably older) guy replied.

I guess the fact that folk music has a lot of the older generation still actively involved means that homosexuality is still more taboo. There's certainly a white, middle class beardy element to it all, one that isn't very open to alternate sexualities in the same way as a young music culture like electronica and dance music, or pop is. I'd certainly feel more comfortable kissing a guy in a straight club (as in a DJ club) than I would in a folk club!

I think the lesbian singer-songwriters are connected to the feminist movement. There is a strong connection between lesbainism and feminism, and hence the desire to sing and fight for the issues that matter.
At its best, the gay male scene has a lot more of a 'fuck you, I'm going to be as outrageous as i want and you have to put up with it' rebellion to it, more like the vitriol of punk than the elegance of folk! The trouble is that now I think the scene has failed to progress beyond that initial impact and has got into a self-contained rut, and its going nowhere in terms of supporting gay men who don't fit the very narrow criteria that is catered for. So here's hoping for some clever and wise folk singers to rectify this imbalance. Or at the very least a sexy hippy boyfriend for me!

Murk

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 02:37 PM

Oh, yuck.

I'm kind of glad I am more of a country singer.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 09:43 PM

A country singer? Don't you know that's against God's laws, you perverted backwards little creep? I don't give me the 'I was born a country singer, and can't change the way I am' crap either. Tiddly he.

Murk

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 02:15 PM

The old joke :-

What's the difference between a straight and a bisexual?
Answer: about ten pints

on that basis the folk clubs would be a very a pretty good place to find the perfect partner to cop off with - full of men, mostly pissed, many of them excesively anal (when it comes to guitars at least).

The real answer to this thread is surely the role of the women's peace movement - Greenham etc. they were all great singers. they sort of were sort of progressive and expressive, when most men were singing about how shocking it was being in a foxhole in the first world war, and then the gaffer come an give you a clip round the ear....etc.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 02:50 PM

Frankly, who gives a shit? Gay, straight, bi, non: Other than the pronouns, what the fu#k does a person's sexuality have to do with folk music? It's FOLK music, not FU#K music. And really, who cares? I like having sex with women. Want to hear about my angst when gays laugh at me? Get a life fer crissake. Some woman gets off eating pussy, should I be concerned about that? Some guy likes cocksucking: so what? You wanna be gay, straight, bi--DO SO. Just shut up about it. No one CARES.

Bye all.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 03:15 PM

I suppose the answer is that like ethnic diversity it can enrich our lives to be more open to the different ways humanity expresses itself.

Its not a question what goes where and who does what to whom. see Christy moores song the Pink Triangle - the gays have their story and history to tell - they are entitled to their place in the circle.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 03:36 PM

weelittledrummer: That is true. However, write and sing the songs. If the songs express the emotions that result from relationships or sexuality--hey, folk is diverse enough to handle it all. I appeared and sang for gay groups--male and female--in the late '60s and early '70s--before it became a fashionable thing to do. I am a hetero. Yes, people--all people--have a history to tell. So, tell it. But, asking if gays have a place in folk: What the hell does that mean? Make a place. It is NOT a closed community.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 03:41 PM

Besides, if the music is any good, it will be listened to.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 09:15 PM

Right, Grok.

I don't really care either except the gays just seem to want to stick it in everyone's face.

It's such a "it's so about me" attitude.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 07:11 AM

well round here things aren't so advanced. I'm sure there must be gays at the local folk club, but I wouldn't have a clue who they were - which is sort of sad.

Anyway Martin, if anyone wants to stick it in your face - you could always try step ladders.....

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 10:02 PM

Come on, boys, please be civil with one another.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 03:35 AM

No seriously. I take the initial questioners point - the male gay experience isn't really reflected that much in the folk music world. Having said that, I don't suppost the daily experience of most of us is - there is such a bias about talking about 'safe' folk subjects - bringing in the sheep, sailing the high seas, fighting the first world war, etc.

The feeling that modern folk writers like Dylan seemed in the 60's to be talking about the current world - albeit in very abstract terms - is almost gone.

As for the idea of homosexuality being pushed down ones throat, at a folk club.....well like I say, it doesn't happen round here a lot - if it happens where these other guys live - they have my sympathies.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 12:37 PM

Hmmm there's an awful lot of wankers in the world. The gay men sticking it in their face, yeah of course we should all have to hide our sexualities in public so as not to make any of the proper straight men embarrassed. As long as we keep it a shady little secret and don't shake your tiny little world view that's fine. Sigh.

I'm afriad the sad reality is that most gay people do keeps it to themselves because of twats like you making so awkward to be open about their love lives.

Folk music has always been crucial in telling the stories of the ignored sub-cultures, giving a voice to those who don't have one. Such as gay people, who are told they can only exist if they keep quiet about the prejudice they constantly face.

Murk

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Grab
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 02:22 PM

Scene: Broadstairs Folk Festival. Event: Belly-dancing workshop demonstration. 42 women (of varying ages between something-teen and 50-something). 2 lads, one in his teens and one in his 30s. Latter is wearing a rather vivid pair of trousers and not much else, and is giving it some with the waving arms.

Woman stood next to my wife: "Look at that guy - I bet he's gay."

My wife (taking photos of us): "I'm afraid not - that's my husband."

Moral: Don't prejudge from what people are doing or playing... In fact, don't prejudge at all, just get out there, do what you like, and enjoy it. :-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,8:11
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 09:11 PM

If there can be folk songs about incest { not that I'm comparing the two } then why not songs about homosexuality ? I would think it would be rather easy to change a few pronouns around. Wouldn't that be considered the "folk process"??

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:41 PM

How about, "I've got the gay roid blues"?

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:10 AM

I think the world has an unnecessary harshness to it at times, and our treatment of people is not always just or justified. We make decisions based on dogma and culture--basically anthropomorphic logic, and it tends to precipitate an intolerance that is not necessary. I am as guilty of that as anyone, and other than to note that in myself and resolve to change as best I can, I'll have to let it go at that.

I do see where the various 'sides' are coming from, and it is not my intent to fault anyone's argument or personal view. I simply will try to amend my own. That will include my language on future threads.

GROK ON!

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 08:41 AM

There are plenty of folk songs about homosexuality, but almost all of them are bawdy, either songs in their own right or else parodies. Sometimes there is just a passing reference. For example in The Bastard King of England you find this verse:

The Duke of Sussex got on a horse,
And rode straightway to France,
Where he swore he was a fluter,
So the king he dropped his pants.

And in The Ball of Kerrymuir there are these lines:

Oh, the Ball, the Ball of Kerrymuir,
Where your wife and my wife were firkin on the floor.

Presumably they were firkin each other, although they simply could have been separately firkin other parties, male or female. The lesbian possibilities add to the humor.

Then there are entire bawdy songs, including the following political parody of Puff the Magic Dragon. The songs deals with the exclusion of lesbians and gay men from New York City's annual Saint Patrick's Day Parade. The courts have ruled that the parade is a purely private event sponsored by the Ancient Order of Hibernians, and if A.O.H. doesn't want to let them march they have every right to do so.

PAT THE IRISH FAGGOT

Oh, Pat the Irish faggot,
Lived in New York town,
And dreamed about the big parade,
When Saint Patrick's Day came round.
Pat the Irish faggot,
Lived in New York town,
And dreamed about the big parade,
When Saint Patrick's Day came round.

But the cardinals and bishops,
Said that buggery's a crime,
Unless it's done to altar boys,
Below the age of nine.
Still Paddy waited patiently,
Again each year he'd try,
Said the leaders of the A.O.H.:
"No faggots need apply!"

Then one sad day it happened,
Poor Paddy he turned straight,
And like a good straight Irishman,
He joined the A.O.H.
But at his initiation,
Much too his surprise,
A hundred naked Irishmen,
Pranced before his eyes.

Some had gaping ass-holes,
And some had quivering hips,
Some of them had hard-ons,
Or semen on their lips,
Some of them were married,
Some celebrated mass,
And some went up to Paddy,
And kissed his Irish ass.

Now Pat the Irish faggot,
Marches every year,
You can watch him blow his Irish pipes,
And never know he's queer.
While the A.O.H. will tell you,
That gayness is a sin,
Pat the Irish faggot knows,
Their secret's safe with him!

Before you slam me for posting a homophobic and hibernophobic song, let me state that I got it from members of the Irish Lesbian and Gay Organization, the group that has been fighting for the right to join the New York parade.

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: PHJim
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 12:49 AM

Sorry for the thread drift, but I've noticed many people say, "gay and lesbian." It has always seemed redundant to me, kind of like saying, "vehicles and trucks." Isn't "lesbian" a subset of "gay"? I can understand using one word or the other, but not "gay AND lesbian".
Is there a reason for using both words?

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: GUEST,One of the lesbians
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 02:21 AM

PHJim

'gay and lesbian' is shorthand for gay men and lesbians (although we, within the queer community, also use a lot of other terms to describe ourselves).

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 04:37 AM

Some are more visible than others. ;)

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 06:35 AM

who cares, get on with enjoying music, and stop talking crap

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 08:39 AM

It's about the music, nothing else.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Lesbians, Gays and folk music
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Sep 12 - 11:45 AM

Nice to see Dick doing his excellent Jack Campin impression, there.