BS: US Health Care Reform

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 04:34 PM

Guest from Sanity, read my post again. As I'm confident you are aware, I am addressing the implication in your post that our earlier immigrants came exclusively from Europe. Asking me how many other countries they were emigrating to besides this one is, in this context, a non sequitur and has no relevance to my post, or the part of your post that it addresses.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 06:51 PM

There you go again, Don, twisting around what I said and turning it into some dumb ideological agenda, whether it applies or not, then arguing a point you make up, to refute what you imagined I said. Nonsense!

And to all the others, the early immigrants, when they came here, it wasn't in search for freebies. Nobody provided them, except people who could help each other out, and even still, anyone thinking they could live off their neighbors gratuities, was seen as a lazy mooch! Even the Native Americans did not tolerate those in their tribes that wouldn't pull their weight, (I suppose Little Hawk could expound on that!), moreover, I don't believe they had a culture, where the laziest of them, would or could freeload off the rest of the tribe, and send the 'proceeds' anywhere outside of the tribe!!...then make excuses about his or her 'right' to do so!! So that argument is absolutely absurd, and is only an indication of how far out in left field some of you will go to, to present asinine arguments!

And, by the way, I DID post that the immigration issue was NOT the whole issue about health care reform,..but once again, some one picks out one phrase, or sentence, to expound their derailed subject, and throw off the thread. You'd think by now(think??), that some of you others would get hip to that tactic, and call it for what it is!

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 07:38 PM

GfS, the "dumb ideological agenda" you object to so strenuously happens to be what it's all about, whether you acknowledge it or not.

And as far as pulling their own weight is concerned, you simply don't know what kind of weight these people pull:    following the crops and slaving away in the fields, doing janitorial work (of the swabbing out toilets variety), mowing lawns and doing garden work—the women, if not working in the fields alongside the men - and the children - working as maids, cleaning houses, doing laundry, and such. But not "living in" maids. No such luxury.

And if not in the fields or as maids and laundresses, in the garment industry. A large number of such women died in a fire in a garment factory some years ago because the building failed to meet the local fire codes, and the women were locked in and when the fire started, they couldn't get out of the building. It made the national news. But nothing was ever done about it. These were women who were getting paid pennies for piecework and having to work extremely long shifts just to make a few dollars.

But who gives a shit? They were only illegal immigrants, right!??

But that problem has been partially taken care of these days. We've exported it. How long has it been since you've bought a piece of clothing that wasn't made in China, India, or Brazil?

"Dumb ideological agenda?" To you perhaps! But such callous disregard for the welfare of other human beings—whether undocumented or not—especially in the name of maximizing profits, tends to fill me with disgust.

Don Firth

P. S. Once again, I remind you that this thread is about U. S. Health Care Reform, not about illegal immigration.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 08:21 PM

Don:"P.S. Once again, I remind you that this thread is about U. S. Health Care Reform, not about illegal immigration."

No shit, Sherlock!
And as far as not caring about immigrants, you're wrong again. That being said, there are legal ways to enter this country, and to be accountable for one's labor and taxes, and benefits. Coming in, by ignoring the laws, of how to do it LEGALLY, could be done legally, that is unless you intend to break more laws, and use benefits, including medical, 'under the radar'. So, i guess you think this is about 'equal rights';, so to make it equal, do you think we should all get to pick our favorite law to ignore, with impunity????

As far as, another element, which you seem to disregard, before one can build, or make certain improvements, the liberals instituted, new fees taxes) for 'impact studies' and reports to be made, before one can legally proceed, which has merit, right?? Did anyone even consider the impact of 14 million people who suddenly, illegally, and unknown, as to where to house them or feed them, appear upon the infrastructure, including medical care, upon the people who live here????...that we now have to pay for???? Get real!! Talk to your friends in L.A. Get a clue, before you spout off nonsense that you expect the 'other guy' to pay for!..and put up with burgeoning crime levels, and unemployment for the very ones footing the bill!

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 09:13 PM

Well, I guess one solution,would be for Mexico to annex California...

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 09:48 PM

'Why is it that when I read things like what GfS and Rig keep posting, I get visions of signs like "Whites Only" and "No Irish Need Apply?"'


                   Because you're a victim of the corporate controlled media.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 10:27 PM

Hey Rig, Not only are you right, but they don't know it. That being said, so is the far right, as well. Right wing and left wing, are on the same bird. If you use common sense, you catch crap from both sides!

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the music goes nowhere, like it did before, because, that same corporate/political fed mentality also stunts the creative drive.............(and they think I'm not rooting for them!?!?.....jeez!!!)

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Nov 09 - 11:51 PM

"'Why is it that when I read things like what GfS and Rig keep posting, I get visions of signs like "Whites Only" and "No Irish Need Apply?"'


                   Because you're a victim of the corporate controlled media."

Nope. If you knew me better--if you knew me at all--you'd know how ridiculously that statement is.

Need I invoke the "B" word again?

I shouldn't really need to because it's obvious to everybody.

Don Firth

(Nighty night. I'm through here for today)

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 12:12 AM

Don Firth:"(Nighty night. I'm through here for today)"

And to you,(and this may shock you)..his finest piece, though not his most acclaimed...(shame) ENJOY!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuGvpPVk0tY&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 12:42 AM

The earlier (European) immigrants actually did come for the freebies. And they took those freebies from those who were here before them. The freebies they came for and took were the land of this country and its resources.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 01:52 AM

CarolC:"The earlier (European) immigrants actually did come for the freebies."

Yeah, they stepped off their boats, and immediately headed for the food stamp office!...where they met a social worker who pointed the way to the free clinic, so the women could have their children, so they could be naturalized Native Americans. Soon, they could go to the welfare tee-pee (Ti-pi), where they lied about where they came from, so they could get AFDC. Not long after that, they took their welfare wampum baskets, and exchanged them for a new set of Guild Phosphor Bronze strings, and taught the Indians 'Kumbayah', and dreamt up folk songs to sing of their many trials and tribulations, and equal rights, for homosexual pioneers, and homesteaders. they learded C F G and Em, and wrote protest songs, of how they were so noble, because they evaded the draft, and even convinced each other that they objected to war, when after all they were just afraid, that they'd be missing all the fun after high school. Ever since, they managed to convince others that they had an education, and that they could cut and paste, on their slates, to prove intellectual and scientific studies to justify why they never went on to to undertake a serious study of music, and why they were such 'beautiful' people bringing peace and love, and never having to grow up, so they lived in the past. They totally denied they were spoiled brats, who rebelled at authority, because they felt the were entitled to be cared for like children, all their lives............which brings us up to date, to now...where they can't get health care on their own, unless the government prints more fiat money to pretend they can have anything they want, without producing a thing, to even warrant it. Hey, pass it over here.....
You mean something like that??

P.S. Oh, I know..I just don't understand!

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 01:56 AM

Correction......"they learded " should read, "They learned.."

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 01:56 AM

No, they came and proceeded to take all of the land and resources that belonged to the people who were here before them, committing genocide in the process. They didn't need food stamps or welfare, because they were living off of stolen goods.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 04:01 AM

Carol, All cynicism, aside, we know that the Native Americans were screwed over, an issue that actually is very close to me, being as I live with the Tewa, and have had very close relations with several of them, even have a given name from them, and speak some of the language. The horror stories, about how the Spanish came up, and what they did to the people in the pueblo is heartbreaking, while looking for gold. Someday, perhaps on another thread, I'd share them with you.

Still, getting back to the topic of the thread, this health care bill is wrought with nonsense, and political quackery. I think it was you, that I shared an exchange, a long time ago, about being able to get reduced rates for health care from certain doctors, for cash, at a largely reduced price, because of the insurance paperwork, and lag of reimbursement from the insurance companies, and/or medicare, so this issue too, I've been dealing with, long before anyone even heard of Obama, or the bill he supports...if you remember. Yes we need reforms. But this bill, and what its about, you will find, is not even close to getting comprehensive health care to those who need it.

As I mentioned, in this thread earlier, I've been to Olive View Hospital, which largely is state funded, through grants to UCLA. That, with all the overburdened workload, is one fantastic hospital!!!
The illegal immigrant issue, and those exploiting the emergency rooms, and outpatient clinics there, whether citizens or not, has threatened their ability to give services, and keep their doors opened. However, unless you have SEEN what I'm talking(or typing) about, with your own eyes, you won't be able to get a good grasp of just what I'm relaying to you.

That's why I suggested, that someone who lives near there who would actually take the time to go there, and see, and talk to the patients, especially those who are citizens, waiting and needing help, and jump back on this thread, and report what they observed, no matter what their political bent, will a lot of you even come close to understanding the problem, short of the political hack 'journalism' that is being used to promote this bill! That's all. Simple as that!

Yes, as I've said before, we need health care. Yes, we need government assisted heath care. This bill, is not it. Furthermore, any political quack representative who votes for it, should be booted out of office, at the next election! Any politician who receives financial 'incentives' for their vote, should be removed from office and prosecuted!!..as soon as possible!..That's how bad it is!

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 07:54 AM

"...they came and proceeded to take all of the land and resources that belonged to the people who were here before them,..."


                  Who took them from the people who were here before they came, and on and on and...

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 08:21 AM

"Hey Rig, Not only are you right, but they don't know it. That being said, so is the far right, as well. Right wing and left wing, are on the same bird. If you use common sense, you catch crap from both sides!"

                   Yes, Sanity, you are exactly right. President Eisenhower made the observation--"Too far to the left and too far to the right of the middle of the road are the gutters."

                   While the corporate media has the population engaged in this --left vs. right-- food fight, they are stealing the public blind, and few of us seem to notice.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 09:29 AM

Oh well, the immigration 'problem' will be solved in a few years, as Lou Dobbs is considering running for president and.... **cough**...**giggle**

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 10:15 AM

It wasn't just the Spanish screwing over the Indians, though. All of the Europeans who came here did that.

Riginslinger, while there was competition for access to land and resources by the various peoples in the Americas before the Europeans "discovered" America, it wasn't in the form of the destruction of entire societies and the absolute theft of two entire continents, which is what the Europeans did when they showed up. But the point wasn't who displaced whom, but rather, that the idea that the earlier European immigrants were not looking for any handouts is entirely erroneous, because that's precisely what they were looking for.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 10:55 AM

Which (if you buy the logic) is what the Asian invaders were looking for when they crossed the ice-bridge and took over two continents from the people who preceeded them.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Amos
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 10:58 AM

" With all of the comparisons to Hitler and the Nazis, young people are beginning to think that the allied powers defeated Nazi Germany because Germany had too much health care."

— Jim Hansen
Proposed extensions of Godwin's Law

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 12:00 PM

CarolC, I know, that. I was merely agreeing with you, about the Native Americans. I am familiar with the Tewa, so I gave you that post. Rig is also correct.
So, if you are likening the illegal immigration problem to the invasion of the Europeans, I guess you are proposing that the citizens fight back, like the Native Americans???????

Sheesh, then we'll REALLY need health care!

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 02:49 PM

You know, when a couple of rabid bi—   [No, Little Hawk gets upset when people use that word, no matter how accurate it is.]   When a couple of people with their own emotional and prejudicial axes to grind accuse me of being "a victim of the corporate controlled media" when they are the ones who are, themselves, spouting the Fox News Service line, and then they go on to do a totally bogus rewrite of history, not to mention reinterpretation of anthropology, in an attempt to support their position, I find that the debate has degenerated to the intellectual level of a schoolyard squabble combined with a clumsily conceived con-job, and is no longer fit for the participation of thinking adults.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: DougR
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 04:06 PM

Sigh. Then I suppose that means that we have heard the last from you, anyway, on this particular thread, right Don? :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 05:59 PM

Well, Doug, considering that this thread was originally about health care reform and Rig and Gfs have managed to twist it into a vehicle for expressing their intolerance of "furriners," I'd say the thread has long since jumped the shark.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 07:17 PM

Not a single post on this page about health care.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 07:20 PM

My point exactly.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: heric
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 07:20 PM

I did two at 10:00 whaddaya talking about. I even convinced myself to support the damn healthcare bill(s). (I find mudcat is good for talking to myself.)

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 07:28 PM

"Not a single post on this page about health care."


                Of course there is. Illegal immigrants are bad for your health.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: DougR
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 07:45 PM

I guess, Don, it depends upon one's definition of "page". :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 07:58 PM

Click on the numbers opposite the thread and up comes a list of pages, 50 posts a page. And heric's weren't on this one, which now has 30 posts.

"Illegal immigrants are bad for your health." Says it all doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 09:38 PM

Huh??

Hey Don, Did you click the link??..and if so, how'd you like it?

Got another beautiful piece as well. I might post it later.
Regards,...GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Nov 09 - 11:10 PM

'"Illegal immigrants are bad for your health." Says it all doesn't it?'

                   Yes it does. At one time, human population growth and the migration that went along with it went pretty much unnoticed, but today, with almost 7 billion people in the world, a little growth here and a little growth there adds up to total annihilation of the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 12:05 AM

I don't know who the original quote was from, about, '"Illegal immigrants are bad for your health", but the key word here is 'ILLEGAL', not immigrants...to be fair.
But to keep things straight, the thread is about health care.

As noted, in my links, earlier, the problem is many illegals are afraid to get health care, in fear of being deported. The problem with that is, if they are carrying a contagious disease, it has more time, if untreated to spread. You may remember, the first cases of 'swine flu' were reported in Mexico City, about three or four months ago. Anyone who has done much traveling abroad knows about getting some shots, before getting a passport. There are advantages of doing things legal, and ones health should be one of those concerns.

Ever been in, let's say a store, during flu season, and the feeling you get when some clown coughs in your direction, without turning away, or covering their mouths?? Why should that feeling be any different when people come into a country, our country, illegally, bringing with them God only knows what, and then are afraid to get heath care, for fear of being forced to leave?

I think that most Americans, being pretty good folks, welcome immigrants, and are proud of this country, when asking them, "How do you like it here?"..anticipating glowing remarks from a visitor.
So let's not confuse anyone who is opposed to immigration, with
ILLEGAL immigration. There is nothing bigoted about people resenting the fact that those people are resented and suspected, because at the get go, they are showing a contempt for our laws!!

On the other hand, I don't think there is a person in here, including myself, who knowing that a LEGAL visitor was sick, and/or needing medical attention, would hesitate to directing them to those services, perhaps even driving them to it, if necessary!
We are, in fact, known for being, not only arrogant people...but also a generous people!!!!

By in large, generous people resent being taken advantage of!!
Regards, GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 05:33 AM

"Some of my best friends are..."

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 08:17 AM

Contagious?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 08:53 AM

Some of my best friends are Mudcatters.

Whew! It took courage to say that, lemme tell you. And I wouldn't just say it in front of anyone. No sir. One has to be careful about that sort of thing. You never know who may be listening.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 11:50 AM

....or reading....or even comprehending fully, what they read!
Yoho, Little Hawk!

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 12:29 PM

Let me get this straight. At present, all these ill eagles are getting emergency room care. Which costs they seem to default on regularly. So it's against our own selfish interests to let them purchase health insurance. How in Hell does that compute?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 01:36 PM

Okay, GfS, I tried your link.

Carla etude/Tonight (Part 2) - Elton John with the ROH.

Very nice. But Elton John is another singer who sings like he has a mouthful of cabbage and I could only understand about one word out of five. Was there some arcane message you were trying to send me, GfS? If so, I'm afraid it got lost somewhere.

Ten guests coming for Thanksgiving, so I'll be gone for the rest of the day. When (that is, IF) I come back to this thread, I hope it's veered back to it's original subject. This whole illegal immigrant shtick is a red herring and belongs in the "death squad" category of lies and diversionary tactics used to try stifle rational discussion and kill health care reform.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 01:51 PM

Three hundred million people in the USA. Perhaps 14 million haven't got a legal right to be there. Big deal.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 02:29 PM

Yeah there's some perspective. Personally, I don't care much whether illegals get to buy full policies but I certainly want their children to have full access. I do agree with Rig to the extent it is wrong to have social and economic policies that intentionally take advantage of illegal status, but a "moderator" screamed I was racist for saying so. The subject drowns out substantive discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 02:43 PM

Absolutely right, Don. I always thought he sounded like he was singing with a mouthful of mashed potatoes....there are other versions of that. When he was younger, he sang it cleaner, but nonetheless, it is a beautiful piece...And,no, there is no hidden message in there from me to you, other than you were going 'nighty night'.

Here, this is another beautifully done tune, cleaner to, by someone else:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcCsmvNzneg

Enjoy!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 03:12 PM

This is CarolC on JtS' computer.


So, if you are likening the illegal immigration problem to the invasion of the Europeans

I feel quite confident that you know that this is not what I am doing.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 03:50 PM

It depends on whether you're talking about the Europeans who arrived before the Asians crossed over the ice bridge, or the ones who arrived after Columbus.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 04:10 PM

Okay Mormons, people who can show a Clovis heritage, and direct descendants of Leif Ericson can stay.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 04:21 PM

Are you addressing the Mormons what live in Utah?

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 04:54 PM

Look, everybody is welcome, but the resentment comes from those who break our laws, to get in, then want to sponge off the system. Did it ever occur to anyone that they could make things better where they are, and working toward that? With 14 million supposed workers, you'd think that would be one helluva work force to improve the conditions in ANY country, especially your originating country, that one claims they love.

And its silly for some of us to seize this issue, as a means of promoting an ideology, for us all to swallow. If someone wants in, come in legally, and pay taxes LIKE THE REST OF US!..EQUALITY FOR ALL, remember????????????

Let's stop the hypocritical double standard, as if anyone here is 'persecuting' lawbreakers...jeez!

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Alice
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 07:27 PM

If the Americans who break the law to employ illegal aliens were held accountable, there would not be a reason for people to illegally come here.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 07:59 PM

You're right, Alice, those folks are the ones who ought to be prosecuted.

Subject: RE: BS: US Health Care Reform
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 Nov 09 - 08:13 PM

900