BS: Does Being Dark Matter?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 May 07 - 07:30 PM

Yes, Joe and in some places it is white which is associated with death and mourning..go figure, huh.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 19 May 07 - 08:53 PM

The point I was making is that unless there is a reason NOT to assimilate, people DO assimilate--not necessarily a bad thing, but it's different in Canada maybe. As a country, existing Canadians expect people to assimilate. And people do. Much as we'd expect to do the same elsewhere.

Assimilation only works if the people who are going to be assimilated are happy about that. To be happy, they must have been sharing in the decisions of government. Look at your government--or mine for example: Ain't too much 'dark' in the bleachers. (Canada has a native North American population that is about 5% of its 33 million people. There ain't all that much 'red' in the bleachers either.) That is a strong indication that dark people are maybe not WELcome there. They have been and are left out of the process.

There are of course other layers of stuff that add to and compound the problems. Finances, degree of isolation both as a group and as individuals within the group, ease of access to the language (mostly English in Canada but with a large French population also) and it often means means that a valuable segment of the population is just not represented in government. Poor people are never represented by other poor people. Native peopl are not represented by other native people. We have a bloody glut of lawyers and rich folks represented though. So, in brief, I assert that there IS racism at work--at least in Canada, and I suspect there is in the USA, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 19 May 07 - 08:54 PM

And that yes, dark matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 20 May 07 - 03:12 AM

It seems to me that in addition to the questions "Does race matter?" and "Should race matter?", another question that has been posed in this thread is "What-if anything-should be done if race matters?"

Mudcat threads on affirmative action and on poverty, including this recent thread that Peace started RE: BS: Poverty in the USA thread.cfm?threadid=99746&messages=835 in part, speak to this last question, and actually to the other questions posed by this thread. I say "in part" because its my belief that affirmative action indirectly benefits all people, and obviously all people in the USA who are poor are not "dark".

But then again, in spite of its play on words of that pre-existing thread title, the first question raised in this thread is "Does race matter?" and not "Does being Black or a person of color matter?"

I believe that being White matters to White people just as much or more than being Black matters to Black people or being a person of color matter to people of color.

With regard to "assimilation", that term may mean something different to UnitedStaters than it does to Canadians and persons living in other nations. When I read "assimilation" I think of social expectations for different groups of people rather than how people are absorbed brought into the nation.

"Assimilation" makes me think of the melting pot theory that was cast off in the USA in the 1970s [?] and replaced by the salad bowl multicultualism theory.

For discussion purposes, for the sake of those who may be on dial up and can't easily get to other websites, and because for some reason, the blue clicky thingy won't work for me for that site, I'm going to take the liberty to post an entire article that I found on the subject of the melting pot theory and the salad bowl theory:

COLUMN: America isn't a 'melting pot' or a 'salad bowl'
By Jennifer Elshoff
Iowa State Daily Columnist 11/7/2003

"We are all born with a natural identification instinct. As humans, we feel the need to name things and need to be able to place everything into a category. However, since colonies were first built in America, we have had an identity crisis which has never been completely settled.

The variety of ethnicities in America is said to be the best mix in the world, but analysts have not come up with a theory that best describes this mix as of yet. The "salad bowl" theory was just brought to my attention in a class this week. Apparently, this idea has been a catchphrase for decades, so I am a little behind.

America had never been explained to me as being anything other than a "melting pot."

"The melting pot theory has been the longest-standing ideology of the two, and the one most commonly discussed until recently.

The melting pot theory is based on the belief that America is one large pot of soup. Anyone who comes to the United States assimilates himself or herself to all American belief systems. All cultural aspects are blended together to form a new race or culture of people where each ingredient has sacrificed its original identity. Cultures are thought to now be a "melted" version of themselves that can no longer be easily distinguished.

The salad bowl idea gives the perspective that immigrants bring different tastes into one whole, but each ingredient maintains its original shape and characteristics.

There are large flaws that don't give the United States adequate merit in both these theories. With the melting pot theory, one would get the impression that adding one ingredient or taking one away would completely change the flavor and texture of the substance.

However, we in America have set standards of immigrants to our level of expectation. People of varying cultures are seen to be successful the more they step out of their native culture and step into our Western culture ideas. We are more likely to ignore factors of other people's beliefs than to accept them willingly into our brew as a tasty spice or seasoning.

The melting pot theory would work fantastically if everyone who came to America were European. However, somehow people of non-European descent are left out of the equation.

The salad bowl theory prides itself on stating that each culture is part of an American system (the salad), but that each culture (the peas, carrots or tomatoes, etc.) retains its own identity.

The problem with this theory is the carrots and peas still seem like outsiders. I know not everyone likes having peas or carrots in their salad. Some people drench lettuce in salad dressing, put on maybe a few sprinkles of cheese and call that a salad. No diversity, no variety.

The idea could be implied that each individual has the ability to pick and choose the ingredients they would like in their salad. This is not true, though, for everyday situations in America. For example, on campus, we might be thrown randomly into a group consisting of one Arab American, or one African American, or one person of any other culture. We have no choice but to work with that person and strive to work around any differences in order to complete the task.

Yes, you can request a salad without tomatoes, but going through life always asking for no tomatoes can be annoying. It would be easier if we weren't as picky and could eat any vegetable given to us.

I admit, I am having fun with the food groups, but hopefully what I am saying is apparent without making you too hungry. The melting pot theory and the salad bowl theory both seem extreme. On one hand, we are asking people to conform to the common Americanized belief system, while on the other hand we are making ethnicity too separated.

It would be great if America could finally be able to identify itself as a culture where people can come and be accepted as who they are, live intermixed with all cultures and still carry on their own beliefs. It is possible other ethnicities do not want to be seen as "American." Therefore, it wouldn't matter which theory we acquire.

However, I have never heard this as being true. People come to America to fit into a lifestyle and to succeed in that lifestyle. I doubt, though, many of them arrive in America thinking they will leave behind their religion, language, and values.

It is ridiculous to call ourselves a melting pot when there are noticeable separations between cultures. Perhaps in the near future we will be able to come up with an entree that efficiently identifies America's acceptance of ethnicity."

http://media.www.iowastatedaily.com/media/storage/paper818/news/2003/11/07/Opinion/Column.America.Isnt.A.melting.Pot.Or.A.salad.Bowl-1097586.shtml

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 07 - 03:15 PM

"I doubt, though, many of them arrive in America thinking they will leave behind their religion, language, and values."

If they don't think that, then they have a certain amount of unreality in their heads. Can anyone here seriously say they'd expect to go elsewhere and NOT adopt at least some social customs? And then the following generation adopt more? It is ALWAYS a struggle for third-generation Canadians to hang onto their mother tongues. But we still come back to the same thing: the more people isolate themselves or are isolated or some combination of both (as a group or as individuals), the less they are involved in government and the less input they have. It is not in the interests of Washington or Ottawa to change the balance. So guess what? The balance doesn't change.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 20 May 07 - 04:12 PM

I agree with you that grandchildren of immigrants usually do not retain the language and values of their immigrant grandparents if that language and those values are different from other people in the nation in which they live. As to religion, it seems to me that that aspect of culture is more likely to be retained than are language & values.

However, even if they don't speak their immigrant grandparents' language, and don't retain their grandparents' values and religion, these grandchildren of immigrants may still retain some forms of their heritage that give them group pride and self-esteem.

Witness the huge Caribana Caribbean festival that has occured in Toronto for 40 years. This is evidence tht people of Caribbean descent in Canada {and those people of Caribbean descent who attend that festival} identify themselves as being of Caribbean descent {at least some of the time} and are interested in retaining & celebrating facets of their cultures.

Of course, a cultural festival is not the same as immigrants or descendants of immigrants changing the basic governmental structure of their host nation or being involved in those already existing governmental structures through voting, running for office, and other political activities.

That is a whole different story, the first part of which I would not support, and the second part of which I would very much support.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 20 May 07 - 04:28 PM

I meant to write {and those people of Caribbean descent who aren't from Canada and who attend that festival}.

My daughter has attended that festival three times. She loves it and plans to go again this year. Her maternal great grandfather is from Trinidad/Tobago and her maternal great grandmother is from Barbados.

I understand from my daughter that lots of people who aren't of Caribbean descent attend the parade and other parts of that festival.

It's definitely not just for Caribbean people, but is a way for Caribbean people to celebrate, show off, and share their culture with their neighbors and fellow Canadians.

I haven't had the pleasure to attend Caribana yet. Hopefully, I'll be able to do so soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 07 - 04:33 PM

Colour identification in Canada.

I was watching a video in which a lady from Montreal was being interviewed. She was asked what island she was from. She replied, "Montreal." She was asked a second time and she repeated the answer. Finally, she looked at the interviewer andd said, "I was born here. Would it make you feel better if I said, 'I was born heah, mon'?

There was a brief pause and they moved on.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 07 - 04:33 PM

BTW, she was dark.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 07 - 04:40 PM

There were gangs when and where I grew up, just as there are gangs now. We formed gangs to protect ourselves. We protected ourselves into being a breakaway culture in our own district. Why gangs? Because we were outnumbered. That simple. I do not understand the root causes of discrimination. Maybe people do it because they can. It matters not where the minority is or what degree of colour they have--and I include Caucasians in that--, discrimination happens. Against Blacks in the US, against Whites in Zimbabwe, against Native people in the southern bits of Canada and against non-Native people in the north of Canada. It is practised against the Ainu in Japan, against Jews in many p[laces, against Arabs in others. Against women almost everywhere. Against the poor absolutely everywhere. And I have no answers or solutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 20 May 07 - 05:21 PM

Helping where and how we can. Showing that at the core of things, differences don't matter.

That's two answers.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 May 07 - 08:05 PM

It depends on what the superficialities are that overlay the 'core'. That is what the enmities and discriminations are largely based on.

One of the most common & obvious is color, of course, but that is not as central as it used to be. It seems to me that color these days, as a 'marker' of race/ethnicity just provides an easy category and way to generalize, when the concerns are actually about language, behavior, 'morality', customs and perhaps political/economic factors.

'Dark', whether Hispanic, African, Caribbean, Native American...etc. matters because there are those 'concerns' noted above associated with them by the 'not dark'...sometimes correctly, but often just as rumors and stereotypes and generalizations.(and of course, this goes both ways)

Because OF anti-discrimination laws in hiring and housing, integrated schools and military, affirmative action and various other forces, society has become more mixed....in some places..., and this has been beneficial in many ways. But there are always areas where assimilation is largely a joke. I live in the Wash. D.C. metro area, and I can go to areas where entire shopping centers have Vietnamese signs, or have mostly Spanish businesses, or where I can drive for several miles and see mostly African-American faces and very few people who look like ME.
   Now, where I live, in a suburb, the neighborhood is quite mixed. In my street we have at least 3-4 black families, including one mixed couple, one family who is either Indian or Pakistani, several..(4-6) who are Hispanic and I see several Asian folks walking or driving by, though I am not sure exactly where they live...just that they are regulars. We have had 15-20 years with no problems, and I am acquainted with several of these folks and have a nodding relationship with several of the others........but.....

....suddenly, it is changing. There is a high school near me, and my street is an obvious route for kids who live across a nearby major street to use when walking to school. It seems that neighborhood is very heavily African-American, and I have been having intermittent problems with the kids..(coming into my yard, breaking things, turning over an old swing set..etc.) My LONG time next-door neighbor sold his house last year, and it was bought by a Latino guy who rents rooms to several other young Latino men. Only one of them speaks passable English, and every weekend next door involves loud music, extra visitors, and by Monday morning, piles of beer bottles on the curb ...so many that the trash collectors often break a couple trying to empty the overflowing bins.....guess who gets to sweep up the broken glass if I don't want to drive over it? (My driveway is right beside their trash spot).
   The next door lawn is no longer maintained well, there has been a broken washing machine sitting on the curb for 3 weeks now, and there are between 3 and 6 EXTRA cars/trucks parked on the street. I am trying VERY hard to remain civil and at least say hello and hope for a way to make....ummm. 'suggestions', but it is hard to KNOW what to say...and as I say, they speak little English. They either do not understand, or do not care, how to separate recycleables and tree trimmings from trash, and almost EVERY Monday the collections people t
'tag' one or more cans as 'not passable' and leave them on the curb...sometimes it takes a couple of weeks before anyone makes the necessary changes. I find cigarette packs, beer bottles, condoms (twice) and other jetsam on my lawn or beside the curb where they have parked. Not huge amounts, but 'tedious'.

....enough? You see, I am faced with the age-old dilemma of what to do when a neighborhood changes. So far, I am coping, but if it gets worse, I am stumped...I cannot AFFORD to move...and I have 25 years worth of stuff to cope with.

What is this phenomenon? It is middle to lower middle class ethnic groups who do not care to be assimilated or adopt 'standard' language & customs beginning to mix with those who have done so. I have African-American neighbors who, at least when they are speaking to me, have very little accent, go to work, tend their lawn & gardens, wave hello when I pass and make no waves in the neighborhood. Perhaps they listen to different music than I do, attend black-only clubs, and watch very different TV programs...*shrug*..I have no way of knowing, but they are nice folks, and quite welcome. The kids from 'the other side of the main street' who walk by are walking stereotypes in dress & behavior (most of them), and I have obvious concerns. In addition, there is a fast rising number of assults, burglaries, rapes in my general area.

There are, you see, several 'cultures' which are not very compatible, beginning to bump together in awkward ways around here. I cannot look at ANY single individual and predict that they will be a direct problem for me, but every time there IS a problem, it comes with an ethnic label, and to return to the first paragraph in this rambling narrative, it is almost automatic now to be 'wary' of certain colors or languages.
Yeah, sadly...it 'matters'...even when I fight the tendency to make unwarranted assumptions, I am aware that I am 'trying' to be fair, civil and reasonable, and I resent having to worry over it.

I am well aware that some of MY ancestors a couple of centuries ago may have contributed to the situation that causes the turmoil I...and those I worry about...face today.....but *I* didn't do it, and *I* have worked for over 40 years to make it better, and the only progress I see is formal and superficial....for which I give SOME thanks! I LIKE knowing that Barak Obama can be in the senate and have a serious chance to be president, and that Tiger Woods can win at Augusta, where blacks were once banned from playing, and that *I* was once the factor that allowed an African-American man to win a political race over a bigoted, redneck white guy, and that a strong, brave woman in Mississippi helped set the tone for ANYONE to sit anywhere on a bus they chose to!.......but I'll confess, I am ready for those advances to mean more than just newspaper headlines and a greater ethnic mix in TV commercials!

I want some real cooperation and good will when 'dark matters' are concerned, and it will take both sides to make that happen....at least a bigger % of both sides than I see working at it now!

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Skivee
Date: 20 May 07 - 09:17 PM

From a previous post:
"A note: not all Black Americans are of African descent."

This seems unlikely, as every human that walks the Earth is of African descent.
No hominids sprung up any where else. We are all Africans. All else is presumption and vanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 20 May 07 - 09:57 PM

Bill D, the word I would use to describe your Latino neighbors is "triflin".

[I'm sure that you know what that word means, but for those who don't here's two definitions from urbandictionary.com-"Any wrong or inappropriate action taken against one, for selfish or pointless reasons," and "describing a situation, person, or event that is pathetic".

And that ain't even the half of that word's meaning].

I don't live in a transitional neighborhood, so it's easy for me to say that it seems that what you are talking about is class and not race/ethnicity. I'm sure you know that there are some triflin White folks in the world too. And I don't want them living near me any more than I want any African American, Latino, Asian, or Native Americans who are triflin' as neighbors.

I wish that I had some suggestions that would help you deal with the situation you describe, but I can't think of any that you probably haven't already thought of.

And I'm not going to "preach to the choir" about how you shouldn't judge a book by its cover. You know that better than me.

I wish you well,

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 May 07 - 10:42 PM

having lived with the Caucasian equivalents of these issues off & on for many years, I can assure you it goes well beyond 'class'.....but that is another 9 paragraphs of typing to explain and document...*wry grin*....maybe some other day.

take care...

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Scoville
Date: 21 May 07 - 11:32 AM

From a previous post:
"A note: not all Black Americans are of African descent."

This seems unlikely, as every human that walks the Earth is of African descent. No hominids sprung up any where else. We are all Africans. All else is presumption and vanity.

Possibly what the previous post meant was that, anthropological particulars aside, not all black Americans are or consider themselves to be African-American. One of my college friends was born in the Caribbean and was a naturalized citizen. She did not consider herself African-American even though she was clearly of African descent because she did not have an African-American cultural or familial legacy.

Personally, I find it obnoxious when whites (and I'm white) trot out the "we're all African" line. Our distant--very distant--heritage does not necessarily affect our life experiences. Very light-skinned black people often face less discrimination than darker ones, especially if they do not "look" black. Yes, we're all African at some point millions of years ago, but most of us haven't gone through the problems associated with being visibly African.

DNA does not dictate mindset so there would be no point in discussing presence alone of African heritage as related to how people view things. I was under the impression that this thread was started as a discussion based on cultural and experiential influences rather than anthropology.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Greg B
Date: 21 May 07 - 01:00 PM

I find the Star Trek reference interesting, in that it's a TV
series which found its niche at a time when the politics of
race were coming to the fore in California.

Other trivia which may or may not be relevant: Nichelle Nichols
(Uhura) and Star Trek producer Gene Roddenberry were lovers, and
Nichols has supposedly said this may have helped her land the role
( http://www.nndb.com/people/503/000022437/ )

I find it somewhat interesting that the vision of the 23rd century
in Star Trek was such that racial and cultural identity remained
strong in the human race. The only venture into the idea of 'mixed
race' is in fact Spock. I would submit that, to the late-1960's
audience, the idea of a half-human was more palatable than a
mixed-human-race character! Witness that when you see human
couples on the series, they're never or mixed race. Even Kirk,
in full (and frequent) rut, is never amorous with a woman 'of
color' in the conventional sense. With green hair, yes. With brown
skin, no.

Then again, Star Fleet officialdom, at the highest levels (see
for example the episode Court Marshall where the senior officers
are of mixed race, but note, never female, then again, Enterprise
under Captain Pike prior to Kirk apparently had a female first-
officer.

Since we're onto the subject of women, note the uniforms. The men
were in eminently practical pants and tee-shirts, though their
heels may have been a bit much. The women, on the other hand,
had hair-dos that would take hours to produce, had lower necklines
and very high hemlines, along with what could best be described as
go-go boots. Eye-candy in the 60's sense, yes. Sexist, too. The
airlines quickly adopted such uniforms for their 'stewardesses.'
As they said, 'Fly the Friendly Thighs of United.'

In many ways, we've already progressed beyond Roddenberry's vision
of an integrated society...in the same fashion that much technology
has progressed beyond the original series' vision--- for example
the blinky lights and rocker-switches on the bridge set, not to
mention the computer making a sound like a model 33ASR teletype.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 May 07 - 02:52 PM

That's pretty much what I meant, Scoville, thanks. I think the previous poster was splitting hairs.

I had in mind my son-in-law who is Antiguan, living in America and proud of his Antiguan heritage, as are his sons, my twin grandsons.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Skivee
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:58 PM

Sorry folks. My point was NEVER to say that African-Americans weren't the target of hate and bile; but rather the opposite idea that any ethnic group ( and I'm thinking of white supremisists here) is somehow better than Africans is stoopid. Because we are all Africans.
And speaking of the supposedly advanced Star Trek, the only way they could think how to get the ***first interracial kiss** on TV was to have Uhuru and Kirk be forced to do the deed because of an evil mind controlling creepy alien. It should have been that Uhuru and Kirk liked each other and kissed. Dark matters in space, indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:31 PM

It is natural for individuals to take pride in their homeland, and to identify themselves as being from that homeland. However, nationality is one thing and race/ethnicity is another.

There's no doubt that there are differences between the cultures of African Americans, Antiguans, Jamaicans, Kenyans, Nigerians, etc etc etc. However, when any of these people reside in the USA or visit the USA, the physical clues that Americans use to categorize people by race will result in most of the people from these nations being categorized as Black. {I say "most" since in every nation where there are Black people, some of those people will be be light enough, have physical features, and hair textures which enable them to "pass for White". "Passing for White" does not have to be purposeful. When people look a certain way, others make assumptions that may or may not be accurate. {Needless to say, I am using the American social definition of "Black" , the infamous "one drop of Black blood" rule, meaning anyone who has any African ancestry, no matter how many generations ago that was}.

Since Americans {that is to say people from the United States} have a habit of simplifying things, any person who is African American in appearance {and that covers a wide range of skin colors, facial features, and hair textures} is considered to be a Black American. And to most Americans, "Black American" means "African American" and vice versa. While this is not culturally accurate, it's the way things are.

If a person from Antigua, Jamaica, Kenya, Nigeria etc etc etc met up with some skin head racists down South or up North, I don't think those racists would be satisfied if those individuals who are technically not "African American" said "Sorry, but you have mistaken me for an African American. I'm an Antiguan" or "I'm a Jamaican" or "I'm a Kenyan". or "I'm a Nigerian".

For some reason, I just can't imagine those racists saying "Oh, sorry. Wrong person".

No matter which country they came from and when, anyone in the USA who is Black in appearance better be aware and prepared for the fact that they're likely to have personal experiences with people who are prejudiced against them just because of their appearance.

To disregard this fact by focusing on nationality could result in that person being blindsided by racism. And to ignore the realities of American racism could also result in a person putting himself or herself and others in a dangerous situation that could result in injury and/or loss of life.

In this sense, though it makes no sense, being dark does matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Skivee
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:39 PM

Azizi, Thanks for saying what I was trying to, much better than I did.
I had made a much longer and better reasoned statement, but it was gobbled up by the vaguries of the Interweb.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:46 PM

And with regards to alanabit's story of "Betty" who had Sri Lankan origins saying ""Well done Alan. You really stuck up for us blacks.":

I found that story interesting on many levels. But, I'd like to focus on this one aspect of that story-

I don't think in the USA that people from Sri Lanka, India, Pakistan, and other places in the Far East use "blacks" as a group referent for themselves.

Apparently the referent "Black" in England and other parts of the UK includes person from Sri Lanka as well as Black Britons who were there prior to Black people from the Caribbean coming, Black people from the Caribbean, Africans, African Americans, Black Canadians, Black people from Latin/South American, Middle Easterners etc etc etc.

Am I right about that?

And is this the same way "Black" is used in Canada and in Australia?

When you think about it, it makes sense since some Sri Lankans, East Indians, Pakistanis, etc etc etc are much darker in skin color than African Americans. But I don't think that "black" is used that way in the USA.

Maybe I'm wrong.

??

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:48 PM

Skivee,

Thank you.

Too bad your other post was gobbled up. I would have liked to have read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 08:07 PM

Black, in Canada--at least so far as I am aware, refers mostly to people of Black African heritage or appearance. This man is Black. This man is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 21 May 07 - 08:15 PM

Okay.

But in Britain, would both of them be considered "blacks"?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 08:22 PM

There ya got me.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 May 07 - 10:37 PM

My son-in-law has been on the receiving end of racism plenty of times since coming to America when he was a teen; stopped by cops and asked whose car he was driving, as if a young black man couldn't possibly own a nice car, guards at WalMart putting their hands on their guns as he walked in, etc. He has never been naive enough to believe they would know any difference from him or an American of African descent. Of course, all he has to do is start talking and his accent makes it obvious he was not raised here, but that doesn't stop the racists.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 22 May 07 - 07:28 PM

"The problem of the twentieth century is the problem of the color-line - the relation of the darker to the lighter races of men in Asia and Africa, in America and the islands of the sea." - W.E.B. DuBois, The Souls of Black Folk, February, 1903.

We didn't solve "the problem of the color line" in the 20th century. Racism is still deeply rooted in American systems and White & non-White American psyches.

I think that discussions such as this one help us to know each other better, and in knowing each other, we move closer to eradicating racism.

Then again, I believe that on this thread,we are largely preaching to the choir

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 22 May 07 - 07:53 PM

Confronting racism is a human obligation, a debt we owe to the future. Many countries--Canada included--practise institutional racism, and it means when all is said and done that some people will lag so far behind that only sweeping reforms to taxation, medical care, education and hiring policies will allow some folks to stand a chance at catching up.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: alanabit
Date: 23 May 07 - 06:07 AM

Azizi: Your post of 21 May 07 - 07:46 PM is bringing into focus something, which probably helps to explain the way I felt about "Betty's" case. At the time, a friend of hers remarked, "She doesn't even think of herself as being black." You and Peace have a point there, as Peace illustrated in his pictures of Dr. Martin Luther King and Mahatma Ghandi. In the case of the former, we tend to think of his "being Black" as a defining characteristic of his identity. Only a Black man could have experienced or known what he did.
What was so upsetting about Betty's case, was that the first time her attention was brought to the way she looked (while at college), it was for such a horrible, destructive reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 23 May 07 - 08:02 AM

alanabit,

thanks so much for posting that additional information. I recognize that remembering that what happened to Betty isn't an abstraction for you. But maybe doing so and posting about it has helped others work through and/or better understand some of their attitudes and perceptions about race.

It certainly has helped me understand that "the blacks" can refer to people other than Black Americans, particularly if "the blacks" is used by non-American people.

And it occurs to me that we haven't even talked about the differences between "Colored people" in the USA; "Coloured people" in the nation of South Africa, and "people of color" as currently used in the USA...

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 May 07 - 06:39 PM

It occurs to me that dark matters quite a lot when I have to consider the context and date to decide what terms to use to refer to someone.

When I was in college and a member of the school chapter of the NAACP, there was this controversy as some of the 'black' students were just rejecting being CALLED 'Negro' and were opting in favor of 'black'...Stokley Carmichael and the Black Panther Party were very much in the news, and language was very much in turmoil. Several meetings had trouble getting past terminology. There was, at the time, one group campaigning for "Afro-American", but they were a minority.
Even today, 40 years later, it is not settled. I find typing (or saying) "African-American" awkward, partly because of its length, and partly because it just doesn't cover all the various groups...especially in large urban communities. When I have to fill out a form, 'white' is usually adequate to describe ME...even though 'pale pink' is probably closer. I would HATE having to type 'Caucasian'...but would, if there were some standard way to describe the other categories.

It is so frustrating to have to PONDER whether "Latino", "Hispanic" or "Spanish" also covers "Mexican" and who will be insulted if I get it wrong....and with the world shrinking and marriage across cultural boundaries increasing, there soon won't BE enough categories to cover everyone.

I'd prefer to not NEED to identify anyone with a label, except when it's necessary...like a description for a police investigation, or when there is some event celebrating some ethnic group. If I need to just single out someone in a group, it would be convenient to say "the black guy standing next to the white guy with the cap".....I don't want to fret over whether the 'black' guy will be offended is he hears me.

We have several 'dark' members in our craft guild--in fact, one was just elected president-- and we almost always just refer to her and the others by their name...and if someone is not sure who we mean, we mention their craft, not their color.



...as I type and think, it dawns on me again that 'being dark matters' BECAUSE various folks are constantly making it matter...from Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson appearing on the scene whenever an 'incident' happens, to news programs speculating about Barak Obama and wondering "if America is ready for a black president"....shucks, I'd have voted for Barbara Jordan years ago, if she had run....and I suspect she'd have done well!

This is the TV era...there is NO doubt that Obama has some 'dark' heritage, but I'd LOVE to see the entire campaign go on with no direct mention of it. Then maybe we'd be moving toward the day when it DIDN'T matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 May 07 - 12:40 AM

Just received the summer schedule for Point of View (POV). On June 19th they will be airing a piece called "Rain in a dry land." Here is the blurb:

How do you measure the distance from an African village to an American city? What does it mean to be a refugee in today's "global village"? "Rain in a Dry Land" provides eye-opening answers as it chronicles the fortunes of two Somali Bantu families, transported by relief agencies from years of civil war and refugee life to Springfield, Massachusetts and Atlanta, Georgia. As the newcomers confront racism, poverty and 21st-century culture shock, the film captures their efforts to survive in America and create a safe haven for their war-torn families. Their poetry, humor and amazing resilience show us our own world through new eyes. A co-production with the Independent Television Service (ITVS).

You can see a video of some of it HERE.

Thought it might be of interest.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 24 May 07 - 06:50 AM

katlaughing, thanks for posting information about & and a link to that video.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 May 07 - 02:29 PM

You are welcome. When it gets closer to the date, I will be posting about the following one, also from POV:

        20th Anniversary 2007 Preview
Sierra Leone's Refugee All Stars

by Zach Niles & Banker White

If the refugee is today's tragic icon of a war-torn world, then Sierra Leone's Refugee All Stars, a reggae-inflected band born in the camps of West Africa, represents a real-life story of survival and hope. The six-member Refugee All Stars came together in Guinea after civil war forced them from their native Sierra Leone. Traumatized by physical injuries and the brutal loss of family and community, they fight back with the only means they have — music. The result, as shown in "Sierra Leone's Refugee All Stars," is a tableau of tragedy transformed by the band's inspiring determination to sing and be heard. A Diverse Voices Project co-production.

Broadcast Date:
Tuesday, June 26, 2007 at 10PM (90 minutes)
(check local listings)

Website Launch:
TBA, 2007
URL: www.pbs.org/pov/sierraleone

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 24 May 07 - 03:05 PM

Bill - I agree with you about it being made to matter.

I've been thinking about the people I know and those who I see in the news and really feel that the physical appearance of those around me really isn't as important as the person wrapped inside. Yes, appearance can be used as a point of reference, but that is all it is and all it should be.

The best neighbour we have in our street is 'black'. I just think of him as Mike - who has made us a bit of a project, checking up on us during snowstorms and the recent Nor'Easter. Mike never seems to have to identify himself as a black person - he's quite comfortable in his own skin and colour has never been something that has been raised as an issue. I note his colour in the same way as I note that one of my best friends here has dark hair and eyes. It's just a way to describe them to another person. Otherwise it means very little to me and, it seems, to them. There are a few people for whom I have no tolerance at all, here and in the UK. I dislike them because of their behaviour, not their appearance.

Same on the 'Cat - there are posters whose posts I don't read because I find them not to my taste - I don't know if they are black, white or what.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 07 - 04:42 PM

Try havin' a look at the news in Jena, Louisiana, if ya figure being 'dark' don't matter in the US of A.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 25 May 07 - 07:15 AM

It appears that "the Jena 6" have beome "the Jena 3", See this article for background:

Tom Mangold in Jena, Louisiana
Sunday May 20, 2007
The Observer

Racism goes on trial again in America's Deep South

"The prosecution of three black Louisiana youths reveals the rise of discrimination by stealth

In the cool and beflagged small courtroom in Jena, Louisiana, three black schoolboys - Robert Bailey, Theodore Shaw and Mychal Bell - are about to go on trial for a playground fight that could see them jailed for between 30 and 50 years.

Jena, about 220 miles north of New Orleans, is a small town of 3,000 people, 85 per cent of whom are white. Tomorrow it will be the focus for a race trial which could put it on the map alongside the bad old names of the Mississippi Burning Sixties such as Selma or Montgomery, Alabama.

Jena is gaining national notoriety as an example of the new 'stealth' racism, showing how lightly sleep the demons of racial prejudice in America's Deep South, even in the year that a black man, Barak Obama, is a serious candidate for the White House.

It began in Jena's high school last August when Kenneth Purvis asked the headteacher if black students could break with a long-held tradition and join the whites who sit under the tree in the school courtyard during breaks. The boy was told that he and his friends could sit where they liked.

The following morning white students had hung three nooses there. 'Bad taste, silly, but just a prank,' was the response of most of Jena's whites.

'To us those nooses meant the KKK [Ku Klux Klan]...

The three white perpetrators of what was seen as a race hate crime were given 'in-school' suspensions (sent to another school for a few days before returning)...

On 30 November, someone tried to burn Jena High to the ground. The crime remains unsolved. That same weekend race fights between teenagers broke out downtown, and on 4 December racial tension boiled over once more in the school. A white student, Justin Barker, was attacked, allegedly by six black students.

The expected charges of assault and battery were not laid, and the six were charged with attempted second-degree murder and conspiracy to commit second-degree murder. They now face a lifetime in jail...

Bail for the impoverished students was set absurdly high, and most have been held in custody. The town's mind seems to be made up.

But now the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People and the American Civil Liberties Union - 'damned outsiders' - have become involved and have begun to recruit, enthuse and empower the local black population. Reporters from the BBC and the New York Times have been drawn to the story..."

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2083762,00.html#article_continue

**

Also, see this Mudcat thread thread.cfm?threadid=101905&messages=14 BS: Jena 6 guilty attempted 2nd deg. murder?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 25 May 07 - 07:28 AM

The best neighbour we have in our street is 'black'. I just think of him as Mike... I note his colour in the same way as I note that one of my best friends here has dark hair and eyes. It's just a way to describe them to another person." -jacqui.c

-snip-

jacqui.c, race as a valueless descriptor is the way that I would love race/ethnicity to be considered now & in the future.

Unfortunately, all people in this nation & throughout the world, and institutions in this nation & throughout the world aren't of the same mind and opinion.

Unfortunately, race does still matter, and in many "incidences" like the Jena 6 or Jena 3 that is reported above, it has little or nothing to do with a person being "quite comfortable in his [or her]own skin" or the fact that Mike's [your Black neighbor's] "colour has never been something that has been raised as an issue".

That said, I appreciate your comments and I'm glad that you have a point of view about race that I wish many others had.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: GUEST,Sistah SoulJah
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 07:26 PM

that statement reallymakes u think differently about being of mixed heritage...always made to feel like ur not a whole person being mixed race...in my experience at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 07:46 PM

Being dark has, for perhaps thousands of years, been considered disadvantageous in many cultures...but not all of them.

I think that one of the main reasons for that was the simplest one: rich people tended not to have to work outdoors a lot in the agrarian ages that preceded the industrial revolution, while poor people generally spent their lives working outdoors. Thus rich people tended to stay pale and poor people tended to tan darkly.

Almost everyone would rather look upper class if they can...hence the prevalence of prejudice in favor of lighter skin tones. This was true in Europe, throughout Asia, and in some African cultures too. I'm not sure if it was a factor in the Americas, prior to the arrival of the Whites, but it may have been in some places with more of a "city" culture, as in the case of Aztecs, Mayas, and Incas.

Now, since the industrial revolution occurred, things have changed! Rich people are now MORE likely to get a tan (and to want one) than poorer people, because the poorer people have mostly gone to indoor work and they don't have as much leisure time to get out in the sun.

Thus having a tan is now fashionable. It looks "rich". John Kennedy, for example, looked "rich". Nixon didn't! Nixon was pale, but Kennedy looked like a "bronze god", according to people at the time. Kennedy's healthy and charismatic appearance was the biggest factor in getting him elected over Richard Nixon.

Ironical, isn't it? People are really pretty predictable when it comes to that sort of thing. They always want whatever is rarer and harder to get, whether it be a lighter skin tone or a darker one.

***

I chose not to address racial issues in this post...only skin tone issues. The racial issues are many and complex, and they can change radically as time goes by. Whichever race is "on top" in terms of political and financial power...and that can change...that race is the one that ends up thinking of itself as superior at any given time. Such thinking is illusory, of course, but it's very persuasive in influencing people's view of themselves and others.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 08:35 PM

GUEST,Sistah SoulJah,

Thanks for visiting Mudcat.

I happen to think that a person's racial group identity is only one facet of who she or he is. But, in my opinion, I strongly believe that a person's racial/ethnic group identity is an important part of there identity-especially in societies which have a history and present day occurances of discrimination and personal fear, distrust, dislike, and/or hatred toward a group of people and groups of people. I believe that such feelings and the actions that result from those feelings are destructive both to the victim group/s and to the group of people doing the victimizing.

In your post, you wrote that you are mixed racial. I believe that in an ideal world, a person's racial and ethnic background would be a value neutral fact. I also think that a person who is mixed race should be able to choose one or the other or both of her or his racial backgrounds. Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world.

I'm not sure if you live in the USA or not. It's been my experience that people in the USA rely on visual clues such skin color, hair texture, and facial features including the shape of a person's nose or the slant of a person's eyes, to determine which racial or ethnic group that person belongs to. Given that the American society has a long history of and present day evidences of racism, it is likely that people who look a certain way will be "judged" by others to belong to a certain group.

It's my view that American society does not give people of color the object to be color blind.

In order for people to "be all that we can be" I very much believe that it is important for us to develop & reinforce a positive group identity or identities as well as positive personal identities {for instance being considered a good athlete, or a good singer, and/or a person who is a good student}. It's also important to feel good about other races/ethnicities.

Sister SoulJah, I hope that you join consider joining Mudcat. If you joined this online community, it would be your choice whether you made references to your racial/ethnic background or not.

I hope to "hear" from you again or this Mudcat thread and/or on other threads.

Best wishes,

Ms. Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 08:42 PM

It's my view that American society does not give people of color the object to be color blind.

Let me rephrase that sentence so it says what I meant it to say:

It's been my experience that American society does not give people of color the choice of being color blind.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 09:13 PM

Any society that obsessively focuses on "race" issues in its news media and its entertainment media gives no one the choice of being color blind....but it gives those on the bottom of the pecking order the least choice of all. No surprise about that! It was ever so.

The only place I've been (so far) where I detected no trace of race prejudice was Cuba, where you have a population that is mostly composed of Latins and Caribbean Blacks, a trace of Amerindians, some Europeans of one sort or another, and a lot of mixed blood people by now. My experience there was limited to the people I was around, of course, so I can't speak for the whole society...I can only say that my impression was that people there were not inclined at all to make race an issue or a problem in their dealings with one another.

They did have gender issues. The women were quite militant in general about combating what they see as the oldtime Latino sexist attitudes on the part of some men toward women. Their revolution greatly encouraged equality of races and genders, and it certainly has had an effect in radicalizing about the last 3 generations of Cuban women to assert themselves.

They did not appear to have race issues. They did not appear to be at all worried about race issues, and that was a good sign as far as I was concerned. It indicates to me that the powerful in that society are not fomenting race issues in any way.

Trinidad was an interesting case also, because it's basically a 3-part society racially: the majority of people are about a 50/50 split between Black and East Indian, while there is a smaller White community mixed in too. It's also a 3-part society religiously, between Hindu/Christian/Muslim...all about equally strong communities. The 3 communities tend to get along well for the most part, but....and this is a BIG but....NOT during political campaigns! At those times the politicians start playing off one group against another and fomenting much bitter division and hostility...and it leads to a certain amount of violent crime, including kidnappings (for hefty ransoms) and murders.

It is strictly the damned politicians in Trinidad who have created the racial problems, as far as I can see, and they did it by raising racial issues frivolously and cynically in order to manipulate voters.

There is a great deal of intermarriage between racial groups in both Cuba and Trinidad...a positive sign of their ability to get along well with one another...if those in power leave them alone to live in peace with one another.

What I am saying, in a roundabout way, is that American politicians, in their efforts to manipulate voters and to attack their opponents, have again and again stirred the pot of resentment and used racial issues to try to discredit one another. They have deliberately poked the hornet's nest and thrown the match in the gasoline, expecting to profit in some way from the ensuing controversy.

In so doing, they have caused a great deal of harm to relations between the races, while pretending to be doing it for the most laudable of reasons...or even while believing they are doing it for the most laudable of reasons. They have helped put salt in old wounds, and caused new wounds that will last for generations.

It's the old "divide and conquer" technique, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 09:58 PM

FYI Little Hawk, and of course for anyone else who is interested, here's a link to http://www.afrocubaweb.com/raceident.htm#cuban%20authors

And here's the introduction to one of that site's pages:

"AfroCubans: Race & Identity in Cuba
There is an increasing focus on race & identity in Cuba, from both within and outside the island. Here we present some resources and references on issues relating to AfroCubans as these are complex and often poorly understood. We will be adding to this and welcome suggestions.

Some observers estimate that over 70% of the Cubans inside Cuba are of African descent. Both the Cuban government and analysts at the US State Department and the CIA agree on a number around 63%. A much smaller percentage of Cubans abroad are of African descent. In Miami, some estimate that over 97% of Cubans are of Spanish origin. At the very least, 85% of them describe themselves as being white in a recent survey. In New Jersey, there are more AfroCubans among the Cuban exiles there.

The very term Spanish Cuban tends to hide the fact that Spaniards themselves have a strong African heritage, the result of being next to North Africa and receiving African culture over the millenia, including the 8 centuries the Moors occupied southern Spain, from 710 AD to 1492 AD. This gives rise to a famous quote from Simon Bolivar, himself a mulatto who was often held in contempt by "pure blooded" Spaniards: "We are no longer European just as Spain is no longer European, because of its African blood, character and institutions."

Cuba also has a Chinese community, centered around Havana's "Barrio Chino."   Many Chinese were brought into Cuba towards the end of the last century as it became more difficult to kidnap and import Africans.

There is a very small, but still surviving Indian community, mostly in Oriente and consisting of Taino people, related to the Taino of Puerto Rico. According to Cuban researchers working over the past 20 years, Native Cubans survived in far greater numbers to a much later date than was commonly accepted: part of the continent wide myth of the "vanishing red man". See Native Cuba.

There is also a Jewish community which has been reconnecting with Jews outside the island."

-snip-


Here is a listing from another section of that site:

What Cubans say:

Flor Amalia Donde Esta Dios? - a play on racism by playwright Amalia
   
Gisela Arandia A Panorama of Afrocuban Culture and History: One Way to Strengthen Nationality. Author Arandia is a researcher on race & identity issues at the UNEAC
   
Miguel Barnet Biography of a Runaway Slave. Author Barnet is head of the Fundacion Ortiz.
   
Ulises Cabrera Independent journalist, writes vehemently against the Cuban government. Blacks and Whites
El Blanco y el Negro

Digna Castañeda Fuertes Between Race and Empire : African-Americans and Cubans Before the Cuban Revolution (1998).   A professor at the University of Havana.
   
Fidel Castro Has discussed the topic on a number of occasions, with increasing frequency and openess.
   
Raúl Castro "Raúl Castro stated that if a person is denied entry to a hotel because he or she is black, then that establishment should be closed, thus applying our laws, even if the installation concerned is a joint venture." -- On Gender and Racial Equality, 3/00

Miguel De La Torre Masking Hispanic Racism: A Cuban Case Study, Journal of Hispanic/Latino Theology,

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 11:23 PM

Thanks, Azizi. Lots of good info there. Like I say, I based my observations simply on what I saw among the people I was around when I was there, and the general political and social talk in informal discussions among us (we did a lot of that). They were a church-based community, doing a lot of useful social work, and they were very idealistic people. I saw no evidence of prejudice among those people or in their dealings with other Cubans of different races.

I heard a lot of talk about gender issues, financial issues, poverty issues, educational and economic issues, political and travel issues, but none about racial issues. People usually talk about whatever it is that they are most concerned about.

The tension between so-called "pure blooded" Spaniards and other Latin Americans has, of course, been a major issue in all the Latin American societies ever since Cortez and Pizzaro landed with their conquistadors and their priests and their torturous religion and their greed for gold...

My own grandfather, a man from Prague, Czechoslovakia, was clearly prejudiced in both a class and racial sense, having come from a time and a class which encouraged that sort of prejudice. He served as a European trade official for decades, dealing with all of Latin America, and while he respected the "pure blooded" Spaniards in the elite (they being the people he normally did his business negotiations with), he made no secret of the fact that he despised mestizos, mulattos, Blacks, Amerindians, and anyone who wasn't solidly "white" as far as he was concerned. He also despised Asians. I have no idea what he thought about Jews, but I have to wonder...

I found my Grandparents' attitudes in this respect extraordinary, but all I could do was shrug...they were in a different mindset, and they were thinking in terms of a bygone era. You could not change their minds about it.

I think my Grandfather would have preferred it if Latin America had all remained under the control of Imperial Spain, Portugal, England, etc...he would not have liked Simon Bolivar's comment. ;-)

I couldn't disagree more with his attitudes, but here's the funny thing....as a person, I'd have to say that he was a very nice, gentle, non-confrontational man, an honest business person in his dealings with others, and basically quite a good man. He simply had no idea that he was prejudiced when it came to all those various groups of people. He thought he was seeing it all as it really was. That's what he had learned from his upper class peer group in Prague and Vienna when he was young, and he went on believing it for his whole life.

Amazing, ain't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Bee
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 11:34 PM

"Dark matters"...

I spent most of my working life in a predominantly Black community. About half my coworkers were Black, and one of my two bosses was Black, and the atmosphere was usually pretty happy. Thirty years have brought a lot of changes in the way people perceive, but not enough.

Some stories, some changes...

A Black mother noting with exasperation that once again, one of her short children had been placed in the back row in the school class photos: would not happen today.

Going shopping with my conservatively dressed and coiffed Black friend, and having store security follow us in every single shop. Likely still going on, but I hope not.

I remember being shocked when I heard several young Black women discussing some Cuban sailors they'd met the night before, because one said "He was so black he was purple - I wouldn't go out with him." And the others laughed and agreed. But that was thirty years ago, and I don't know a black woman now who would say such a thing.

My coworkers, thirty years ago, wearing their hair natural for the first time since childhood, and finally, twenty years ago, feeling free to do any damn thing they liked with it. But little girls still freaking out when their braids come out in the swimming pool "My mother will kill me!"

Learning how to comb and braid hair as a result of above.

Banks got colour blind. It became much easier for Black families to get loans and mortgages.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: SharonA
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 12:20 AM

Does being dark matter... what? Finish the question!!

Does being dark matter leave you feeling unnoticed? or attractive?

Does it make you feel spaced out?

...or does it make you whole? (black hole)

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 12:45 AM

(chuckle...)

Yeah, I thought of that too.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 12:55 AM

I had to read your post a couple of times before I figured out that your use of dark matter was as noun and not with dark being shorthand for people with dark skin color and matter being a verb that in this context means Is it pertinent, relevant, significant, important, of consequence, or is it inpertinent [?], irrelevant, insignificant, unimprtant, of no consequence {or, should I have said "inconsequential".

I think it was the "spaced out", "black hole" sentences that helped me see that your post was at least part snark. Or was it? If so, it was a good play on words, especially since the title for this thread is a play on words of another Mudcat thread about "outer space".

**

Excuse my experimenting with fonts. Thanks to some instructions like this one that a Mudcat guest & several Mudcat members shared with me, I finally learned how to change the font from one appearance to another.

But I have to keep practicing how to do it or I'll forget the instructions that make it work. I know that eventually using those instructions will become second nature. But now, I have to concentrate on each step and go back a couple of times to try to catch the errors I make before I hit the submit button.

I think there's a lesson in there somewhere about how we can help change the world from a place where certain kinds of differences make a difference to a world where those kinds of differences don't matter at all.