BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 03:26 PM

"it's a non question, it's some peoples choice to live that way,so let them"

It's a form of "choice" in theory perhaps, though I'd be happier with that notion if a broader demographic - specifically more young women from middle-class and upper-class backgrounds - forged the ranks of young single mothers.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 03:42 PM

benefit these lost and drifting women

Who says they're lost and drifting? They're just people, no more lost or drifting than you & I, dealing with life as they see fit and making lemonade where necessary. More power to them - if there is a them of course, rather than a few canny Daughters of Albion who the reactionary misogynistic media perceive as an organised mob-threat to public decency, moral order and so-called Christian Values. As far as I'm concerned such decency, order or values can't be threatened enough - high time we dispose of them altogether then we might be getting someplace, especially when they are used as a means to superiority and condecension as is very much the case here.

And as for Britain being a rancid shithole - well, this is the land of my birth and it's where I have chosen to live. I sing its Folksongs, enjoy its Classical and Popular Music Traditions (from Dowland to UK Hip-Hop), and having spent a lovely rainy day in Saltaire and partaking of the delights of Salt Mills and the Early Music Shop then there must be something about Great Britain I love. But the bastards who run it (GB, not Salt Mills) have sold it down the pan - and yet dare to scapegoat the innocent for its faults, whilst the media persist in seeing faults where there aren't any just to keep the population afraid of its own shadow. One of these days the Good People of Britain will realise that its shadow is its best ally - and those lost and drifting women truly our best hope for a worthy future.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 03:58 PM

They are indeed lost and drifting, producing children who are at the very least badly parented (and needing our Tax money to live on). They are not reaching their full potential. They are not contributing to society. Their lives are not happy or stable. (At least, those I have spoken with.) I do not view them from a standpoint of either superiority or condescension, why should I? I am not in any way 'superior' to anyone. I have never metioned 'Christian Values'. I do not believe in threatening decency or order. Without them we would be living in a state of anarchy. But I'm so glad you find some things about our country to love.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 03:59 PM

M'Unlearned friend agreeing with rational people and The Daily Mail being described as good on the basis of sales.

Ah well, at least the above people are deflecting flack from those who vilify young ladies who end up paying dear for a night's passion. Even those whose expectations of life are so low that the lure of benefits based on fantasy seem to be sufficient to make life choices.

What a sad world we live in.

Good job I'm about to go down the pub. Without beer I might take life too seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 04:18 PM

"young ladies who end up paying dear for a night's passion. Even those whose expectations of life are so low that the lure of benefits based on fantasy seem to be sufficient to make life choices."

It's not all about that "Oopsydaisy, forgot my pill!" teen lust stuff either, or indeed economic pragmatism based on limited options. Some of these girls having come from a shitty background themselves simply desire a loving 'family' life and so decide to go out and make one for themselves. And I've known some perfectly devoted serial Mums on benefits, including the multiple fathers thing and all - distrust of Men can of course be a part of the equation in many a rough working-class girls life. But again, there are a number of nuances to this stuff which will never reach the pages of right-wing media.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 05:20 PM

The problem is that there are not enough resources to take care of people with severe handicaps, or old age or other circumstances to have our youngest and healthiest people of working age not working. It takes money away from those unable to work and there is apparently not enough lmoney to go around. That is a problem. For every teenager with children that the state has to support, there is that much less money to take care of people with unmet health needs, shelter etc. If we were smarter we would find ways to have the young mothers work in agencies that helped the elderly and handicapped in exchange for some of their support, but we haven't figured that out yet. I am totally for supporting people who need it, but I am also for it being a two-way street, with those who are able to contributing back in various ways. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 05:36 PM

At the risk of being labelled a fascist by Suibhne, I totally agree with your viewpoint, mg. That is the position in a nutshell.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 05:41 PM

young mothers work in agencies that helped the elderly and handicapped


Frankly, don't these people deserved better caretakers than irresponsible people, forced to do it?

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 05:45 PM

Some of 'my' prisoners, when released and under the Probation Service for a while, used to be coerced into painting old ladies' houses. They made a right mess of it I can tell you!

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Aug 11 - 10:08 PM

Oh woe is me! If I can make sense of what Mr Fluids says, I am going to have to agree in part with something he says too!

It would be of assistance if the reactionary Bluesman would provide the precise provenance of the alleged Prince's Trust report to which he refers.   Most reports falling to hand appear to be to publications from 2004 and 2001, and not quite in the terms he suggests.

I suspect that his reference to increasing teenage birth rates in the UK is a conjuration. I also suspect that medically, there maybe much to recommend teenage births. I am sure I have seen medical concern at the "elderly primagravida" problem.

The suggestion that it is so simple for a teenage mother to find a flat and get the whole rent paid for by benefits is surely wrong. Most of those whom I know and who are on benefits find it a constant struggle to make ends meet and to afford the things that the rest of us take for granted.

One must accordingly enquire why the supporters of oppression above do assert what they do. The natural assumption is that they support the propertisation of women, which in turn requires adherence to the "good girl" social construct which in turn models the judeo-pauline demonisation of sexuality outside a propertised relationship, itself a tool of oppression by organised religions. Or, in short, they are evil exploiters and supporters of a top-down patriarchy. Women who refuse to be owned threaten them, or remind them of their own inadequacy, perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,Lifebouy
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 03:44 AM

Bridge has written some "off the wall" comments on the cat over the years (none were deleted by the way), now he wishes to turn the problem of young women deliberately getting knocked up so they can get a free party house and a generous weekly hand out from the taxpayer for their collections of "beer tokens" to various unknown fathers into the female white slave trade. What the hell has this to do with oppression of women ?

Earlier in the week , he posted that he wanted to firebomb members who oppose his viewpoints on this thread, well it is an improvement on him "wishing cancer" on another member who opposed his viewpoint a few months ago.

Most people keep a dog or a cat as a pet, Max should really consider this, a Bridge does not make a good pet.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 05:36 AM

Anybody ever heard of the "underclass"?
They live in hell...most of them numb with alchohol or hard drugs, they survive on benefits because there is nothing else and having babies is the only way of increasing those benefits.

After a few years in hell, they come to see that for them life is short and set in stone....there is no exit door.

Oh yes....and very soon there will be millions more residing there, as the poverty gap gets ever wider.

I dont read the Mail, but I've been to hell on a few "day visits" and I can assure you nice middle class people....ya don' wanna go therr!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Musket
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 06:19 AM

A bridge may not make a good pet, but by agreeing with a few people he doesn't normally have time for, he is at least as able to pleasantly surprise you as my greyhound is.

Mind you, lets not get complacent. I think I see his last point, but if he rewrote it with words of less syllables, we thick Northerners might be able to debate at his superior level. I get the point that living in benefits isn't the life of Riley and glad to see someone make that point. Not so sure about the supporters of oppression being quite so relevant to this debate, but rock on Bridge, you might find a thread to put that in some day and I may even agree with it.

This thread is about either a type of person or a situation many types of people can get themselves in. Methinks if we decide whether we are stereotyping people or situations the debate may get somewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 07:07 AM

Glad to hear you're a member of the club Ian.
Appreciating greyhounds excuses a lot of political opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 07:37 AM

"living in benefits isn't the life of Riley and glad to see someone make that point."

No it isn't, at least one of my friends (who has a minor disability) supplements her income by (gasp!) dealing drugs.. No not crack cocaine outside the school gates, stuff like Weed, E or K, to grown-up festival goers mainly during the Summer festival scene. In point of fact, that's pretty normal. Others will use other means, like odd jobbing for cash in pubs, or gardening and cleaning for middle-class folk). However back to the point, while living on benefits might not be the life of riley, it can still actually work out better than trying to pay the rent on a low income. Considering how much it costs to rent privately (baring in mind that the bulk of affordable social housing stock is mostly in private ownership now), and considering how little income a minimum wage job will bring home, the working poor in this country can often be the worst off financially of the lot - hence the phrase "can't afford to work".

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Musket
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 07:55 AM

I suggest you increase your number of greyhounds then. Your opinions may benefit from the tolerance you need settling an ex racer into domestic retirement...

Next time you go and shake hands with the underclass, take a flask and butties, the more you hear the more your understanding may be reflected in your views?

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 09:34 AM

They live in hell...most of them numb with alchohol or hard drugs, they survive on benefits because there is nothing else and having babies is the only way of increasing those benefits.

This patronising myth-making is repulsive in the extreme. Now I know why it's best not to venture below the line, which is a tabloid hellish realm in its own right. Still, folklore is folklore. In the old mill-towns pregnant underage girls were forced to give birth at their looms and as soon as their babies were born they put to work by being rolled across the floor so the fluff would gather on their bloody bodies. This fluff would be scraped off by teenage wet-nurses who were especially skilled at making felt hats for the gentry. Of course they got by - largely by recourse to hard drugs, alcohol, and by having sex with anyone who could find any sort of pleasure at all in their emaciated skeletal bodies. The average life expectancy was 14 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 09:52 AM

I could take you to a hundred places in the west of Scotland where that "myth" is a reality.

Do you really think I would write what I did without some experience of the problem.
I have no intention of giving details of that experience, but suffice to say that it has taken up a large part of the last years of my life.

Guest....I don't know what point you are trying to make, but go to any "scheme" in Greenock,Dumbarton, Glasgow,or small Clyde estuary towns and you will find what I have described.
Its not folklore, but happening today in our affluent and "democratic" society.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 10:49 AM

akenaton has a point. If you have a word with the Police in any town, large or small, they will know all the districts and the individuals involved in that sort of lifestyle. I have been privileged to have contact with our local Police when one or more of 'my' prisoners was re-arrested. They told me all sorts of hair-raising facts about their work with offenders and their womenfolk. It is not rare but commonplace, and certainly not 'folklore'.
Anyone who ventures 'below the line' and feels it is 'a tabloid hellish realm in its own right' need never venture thence again. Simples! (as a meerkat would say)

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 11:40 AM

Come gather around and I'll tell ye a tale.
A tale you won't soon forget
About a teeeenaged mother
and a bridge that she kept for a pet.

She was still a school age youngster
A young lass of barely thirteen
A gathering up the lint babies
And the straw boss was so very mean

So she found her self a young fellow
And he too was barely a pup
And I can't go into the details
But before long she was knocked up

A weight was gone from her shoulders
A burden released form her soul
She no longer had responsibility
She now could go on the dole

So she called up the estate agent
And picked out a wonderful home
The time she don't spend carousing in pubs
She spends talking on mobile phone

Except for Monday mornings
Which she spend there a waiting in line
Talking about the men that she knew
Causing her uncle to whine

About the horrible system
That supports his young niece in high style
And folks who appreciate irony
are somewhat inclined to smile

For a man who looks at his family
and says that the system is grim
Might want to show some gratitude
For at least there's no burden on him.

So all of you hard luck lassies
Who think that the school life is hard
Just think of the life of luxury
You could have with ten kids in the yards

All together now!!
Just think of the life of luxury
You will have with ten kids.......

In..... the .... yard.......

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 11:49 AM

The Ballad of the Teenage Mother (Edited version)

Come gather around and I'll tell ye a tale.
A tale you won't soon forget
About a teeeenaged mother
and a bridge that she kept for a pet.

She couldn't afford the vet bills
So the bridge died when it was quite young
She also didn't have the money for pill
and so this song must be sung

She was still a school age youngster
A young lass of barely thirteen
A gathering up the lint babies
And the straw boss was so very mean

So she found her self a young fellow
And he too was barely a pup
And I can't go into the details
But before long she was oh so knocked up

A weight was gone from her shoulders
A burden released from her soul
She no longer had respons-ibility
She now could go on the dole

So she called up the estate agent
And picked out a wonderful home
The time she don't spend carousing in pubs
She spends talking on mobile phone

Except for Monday mornings
Which she spends there a waiting in line
Talking about the men that she knew
Causing her uncle to whine

About the horrible system
That supports his young niece in high style
And folks who appreciate irony
are somewhat inclined to smile

For a man who looks at his family
and says that the system is grim
Might want to show some gratitude
For at least there's no burden on him.

So all of you hard luck lassies
Who think that the school life is hard
Just think of the life of luxury
You could have with ten kids in the yards

All together now!!
Just think of the life of luxury
You will have with ten kids.......

In..... the .... yard.......

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 11:54 AM

What is a ' bridge ' that you can keep as a pet ?

Baffled, Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 12:19 PM

"If you have a word with the Police in any town, large or small,"

It also depends what company you keep too, anyone living in social housing or who has family and/or friends who are, or indeed anyone in contact with services like NEEDAS will probably be aware of the dodgier local areas simply because they become well known within a particular strata of the community via the grapevine. While most social housing tenants will probably want to keep out of such areas, you will get those who actually want to exchange TO them, specifically because they will be closer to their community of dealers & fellow users. So you end up with an osmosis, whereby certain locations (it could literally be a single street) will effectively develop a reputation as "drug central" for that town and even maybe further afield. I can think of a couple of such locations not too many miles from me right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 01:25 PM

Livelylass, that's exactly the case in the city near where I live. And in many others too. Certain streets and certain districts (which I, like you, could name) have for whatever reason become rookeries of this way of life. I suspect the Council deliberately houses certain types in these places 'to keep them all together' and to spare the 'better quality council residents' (not my words). It makes it easier for social workers and District nurses, Police and other folk involved in their surveillance to access them. They can 'do' several in the same street in one morning! And the single unemployed young mums who live near eachother supply mutual support and company. But in my experience, they fight a lot and physically attack eachother, they seem quite volatile. Probably, living their lives on the edge stresses them out terribly. I've visited some of them in their flats, and even wallpapered/painted a baby's room for a young lass. But the squalor has to be seen to be believed. I don't know how they can be helped out of that way of life.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: BTNG
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 01:33 PM

"I suspect the Council deliberately houses certain types in these places 'to keep them all together'"

They're called ghettos, let's not be polite about it, the Nazis used them, the apartheid regime in South Africa called them townships, a rose by any other name, the towns and cities in the American south had /have their so-called "Negro Districts", but call them what you will, they are plain and simply ghettos. Far easier to control the people that way, put them altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 01:49 PM

The housing is actually quite nice, good flats in a pleasant location generally. No huge tower blocks. But the residents seem to spoil the neighbourhod, eg chucking furniture out onto the front 'garden', (weed plot), used needles lying about, dirty nappies chucked over the fence etc. The young women I visited (girlfriends of 'my' prisoners left high and dry after the Police had wheeled away their man for the umpteenth time ) saw nothing wrong in the filthy and untidy rooms they lived in. I used to smile, they were often busy varnishing their nails beautifully, while all around was muck and mess, and the babies crawling about with filthy little faces!

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 04:52 PM

They need inspections and some sort of house mother for the underage ones. Public housing should not mean destruction of public property and it should not mean child neglect and it should not mean housekeeping that can bring in bugs and vermin..which can also be found in good housekeeping as well. There should be rules about how much can be brought into the house and how it is to be disposed of and they should count on house mother doing routine inspections at least weekly.

Oh I quake that someone might call me a fascist. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 05:03 PM

And if I say "I agree" mg, I might be called a fascist as well! Trouble with our suggestions is that the young women in these flats would resent terribly any interference like that, even the very young ones are feisty and defensive. I had to 'box clever', and never criticise. I worked often in conjunction with a Quaker organisation for prisoners and their families, and their approach was very 'softly softly'. I'm not a Quaker myself, but their work is admirable and non-confrontational. I sometimes wonder if us older women might 'adopt' in some sense a little family, popping in and advising? But it has its dangers. These communities are violent, drug-ridden and aggressive. You risk being told to "FUCK OFF!" loud and clear. (I was, several times!)

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 06:13 PM

They need to be told this is what you have to do to keep your benefits, and this is what you have to do to keep your baby..as in keep her fed and clean and in a safe environment. There should be grades of housing..some totally indestructable with only the basics, and some nicer stuff that they could earn, or lose...there should be excellent security in all of these places and if they have idiotic practices like they have in the states with vulnerable elderly and mentally ill people being mixed in with aggressive sorts..that has to stop. There should be lots and lots of oh dear fascist video surveillance and checkpoints for visitors to check in. People can and do adapt to all sorts of restrictions, and it should be understood from day one that public benefits are going to come with strings attached, the first being good behavior. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Lox
Date: 07 Aug 11 - 08:08 PM

No Eliza :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 02:10 AM

"I suspect the Council deliberately houses certain types in these places 'to keep them all together'"

I've no idea whether that might be true or not to be honest. I guess it's possible, but baring in mind that much like those who work in other social services people who work in social housing tend to do so at least in part due to a high sense of social responsibility, I have trouble with that notion. My old housing officer for example was a Marxist, I rather doubt that he would have subscribed to any such practice! Basically housing stock is impossibly limited, there isn't any left, so what there is is almost exclusively allocated to those in greatest need. Those in greatest need will be those with a number of children, people fresh out of nick, the disabled, those living on the street and those with mental health problems (not unusual to find several of those things going together of course). As I said before however, you will see a certain amount of 'self selection' going on, particularly if you're a social housing tenant who's ever been involved in exchange schemes: "i hav luvly house wiv nice size garden, new bathroom and kitchen. want 2 go to bluebird way". My old estate was a grotty place and notoriously tough to get out of, there was car theft and some knife crime, drugs of course were available if you knew who the local dealer was (as everyone did) and to top it off a child sex ring was found operating there. The people we finally exchanged with wanted to live on that specific estate to be near their friends. Even though one might wonder, there's nothing very shocking in that really either - after all we all want to live somewhere we feel at home.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 02:32 AM

PS though where we lived wasn't nice, it was still way better than many other estates elsewhere! I'd rather live out of a van than on some of those sink estates.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 02:40 AM

You have to decide whether you favour the oppressors or the oppressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Musket
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 03:58 AM

An oppressed person in the examples given above can easily be an oppressor of others.

if we all go around with a victim mentality, it will be difficult to pin blame on anyone or indeed anything.

Bridge makes a short and pithy remark that is, for once, pertinent to this discussion. However, I would feel more comfortable with it if he put the word "perceived" in a couple of places in the sentence. Relativity has never been confined to physics. Even the sink estates referred to have a mixed economy. At the risk of sounding dramatic; in the valley of the blind the one eyed man is King. (And possibly oppressing the others.....)

(Just blending in with the tradition of abstract waffle.)

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,BobL
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 05:37 AM

There was an article in New Scientist some months back (sorry, haven't kept it so can't give the reference) that did a good job of explaining why single teenage motherhood is actually a good strategy under some circumstances - like no job, no prospects, and less than average life expectancy. It makes sense if you consider that, biologically at least, our sole purpose in life is the propagation of our genes.

Some people OTOH may consider that NS has a lot in common with DM...

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 06:55 AM

Oppressors or oppressed? Well, I know where I stand. Crudely speaking I tend to see the so-called 'underclass' as *effectively* the product of a feat of Capitalist social engineering. These folk didn't just wake up one sunny day and think "How mysterious, I no longer feel like doing an honest days work down at the steel yard/docks/pit (wherever), all of a sudden I fancy some yummy special brew for breakfast. Then I think I'm going to go out and do some robbing, before creating a few nippers before tea, and having a nice drop of heroine before bedtime."
So, while I tend to think that people (all people) will try to make the best choices they can for themselves, when options are limited, they will make choices that others might think are not very err constructive. The question Eliza asks is "how do we break the cycle.." It has to start with serious reinvestment in depressed areas, or even as Ake suggests, a complete overhaul of 'the system'. Of course neither of those things will happen under this government, and we'll keep getting those articles in the DM blaming groups of people who have been dumped in the poo by policies they promote, for being horrible smelly poopy people.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Lox
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 07:45 AM

On the matter of 'oppressed versus oppressors' - this can be a difficult criteria to operate by as it is often so subjective.

In Zimbabwe for example, it is very easy to see that opponents of Zanu PF are amongst the ranks of the Oppressed.

However, Robert Mugabe would turn round (yes he's a mad fool and I don't support one iota of his opinon) and say that Zimbabwe was oppressed by the west, and that his vision was to free zimbabwe from that oppression, and in order to do so he had to lock down political dissent.

You and i would look at that and say - well Mugabe is nuts ... so who cares what he says ...

But then you could ask who is oppressed and who the oppressor in Cuba - a slightly greyer area - I happen to like Cuba for its health service and education, and for its culture of community responsibility - something that Castro can take responsibility for.

However, Castro was a pretty ruthless dictator in other ways and I do not agree with oppression of anyone.

If you accept the principle of sacrificing one persons well being to facilitate anothers in one context, then why not in an opposing context.

A third case is that of the USA where the culture is one of absolute freedom of enterprise and protecting the conditions in which 'freedom' can flourish.

Taxes and environmental regulations and gun laws represent 'oppression' if you have that mind set, evn though many of us would see that mind set as resulting in the effective oppression of the poor.

And it is perhaps ironic that Americas 'free' society owes its existence to slavery and conquest - so one wonders whether it can ever really claim t be a free country at all.

But you get my gist I think that one mans oppressor is another mans oppressee (if there is such a word).


A more useful yard stick could be just "do you give a shit about peoples suffering or not"?

A lot of people don't and will quite happily stick the boot into the weakest of people if it helps to feather their nest just a little more.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 09:52 AM

"A more useful yard stick could be just "do you give a shit about peoples suffering or not"?"

And a more useful yardstick to determining how much you give a shit (than simply claiming to give a shit) might be how much you get your hands dirty trying to help relieve that suffering.

While I don't get my hands dirty, I have considered participating in schemes my current landlord oversees for tenants willing provide support for other tenants, unpaid social support essentially. What puts me off is dealing with aggressive behaviour and abuse from those who either expect someone to magically provide the four bedroom house (which doesn't exist) they need to solve their overcrowding problem or those who would (and arguably quite rightly too of course) object to what they saw as interference from busy-body do-gooders.

Eliza's received a great deal of criticism here, but for all the pooh pooing, I haven't heard anyone else sharing the ways in which they offer their time and get their hands dirty directly addressing the problems that members of the 'underclass' currently face in this country. As said, I know I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 10:06 AM

Correction to that last statement:

I think Akenaten alluded to something that he's actively involved with in deprived areas of Scotland, but preferred not to give details.

And of course others here may also prefer to refrain from offering equivalent details too of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 10:53 AM

Thank you livelylass. I have to say, any small help I may have managed to offer, either with visiting the prisoners in prison or their girlfriends & their babies at home, was very very rewarding and fascinating. I learned an enormous amount, and it gave me something to do in the way of being useful. But I don't feel I changed anything in the long run for any of the young people I came into contact with. My feeble efforts weren't enough to help them turn their lives around, as it would need investment by the Government, and social Professionals to get more involved (in a gentle, advisory way). But I did feel some of them looked on me as a friend, and they were usually pleased with any little thing I managed to do. If volunteers wanted to do similar things, they would have to tread warily, be respectful and sensitive, and have a genuine, sincere sympathy for the women. Also, they'd have to be pretty bomb-proof, and not mind dirt, shocking sights or an earful of abuse from time to time!

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 11:07 AM

I would love to know what unemplyed single mothers are suffering ?
I went to Post Office this morning and stood in line behind the teen pram brigade. Conversations ranged from who shagged who to what colour of forms to fill in to screw more out of the government. They all collected a healthy bundle of 20 pound notes may I add.

I remarked to the post mistress about the amounts these young women were collecting, she said, "words fail me, they are much better off than any of those working for living."

She informed me that they also go top of the list for child care places,yes they have all day on their own to lay back and think of England, the land of plenty!

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 11:16 AM

Well Bluesman, the ones I went to see were prisoners' families, and had often suffered with physical abuse, drugs, alcoholism, health problems, depression, fear of dealers and neighbours' aggression. The ones you describe are not the same type perhaps, they sound quite contented!

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 11:20 AM

Yes Eliza they are. Advise the ones you know to contact an Estate Agent and see what Semi's are on the market to rent, sadly all are gone around my home.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 11:32 AM

It's a good ten years since I stopped the Prison Visiting, and started travelling around West Africa, so I'm afraid I'm not in contact with the young mums any more. Instead, I help financially with my husband's parents and extended family in Ivory Coast. Now there IS poverty, grinding and even life-threatening. Ivory Coast has no Benefits system at all, and people can literally starve to death. But generally, one's family take in their own, so unwed mums are never a burden on the State. Should we perhaps copy that culture? Parents have to cater for their daughters' illegitimate offspring.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 12:22 PM

The idea that benefit recipients can just walk into an estate agent and magically get the benefit system to pay the rent on a "nice" house is barking mad. I've had lodgers in my house struggling to manage - at least one lodging here as a condition of bail on a serious charge (and some ripping me off), and I've got tenants in my late mother's bungalow struggling to manage (actually all male) and have had others destroying the bungalow and doing a runner, but NONE of them could raise the actual market rent through the benefits system. The structure of the system requires them to use a significant part of their living allowance to pay the rent.

The hidden agenda of the pocket dictators above is given away by Bluesman who apparently thinks that young women on benefits should not be allowed to have sex, and Eliza - who appears to believe that the vital distinction is legitimacy or illegitimacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Musket
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 12:26 PM

Just one question Livelylass.

You slipped in the word "capitalist" when you mentioned social engineering. Why?

I know they didn't have Special Brew in Soviet Russia, but cheap vodka and home make potato peeling spirit was all the rage with those whose lives were similar to those you reckon are a victim of capitalism.

Do you really think moving away from social democracy with a market economy will eradicate the Special Brew elite and Accident & Emergency frequent flyers' club?

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 12:37 PM

"NONE of them could raise the actual market rent through the benefits system. The structure of the system requires them to use a significant part of their living allowance to pay the rent."

All true. And all also a consequence of the big sell off of public housing as overseen by Thatcher. One generation did terribly well out of that scheme (I know one couple, now retired, who were able to buy up not just one but two council houses at 50% of their real value) but now their children and grandchildren will do less well - at least in part - as a consequence.

In fact there is a building wave of anger amongst generation Y against their elders who have - so far as they can see - gobbled up all the pie and lapped up all the cream, and left them with nought but the pips to swallow. Simplistic perhaps, but when considering that generation Y will be the ones caring for those same elders once they are geriatrics one wonders what kinds of "geriatric care" they will be willing to fund in a couple of decades..

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 12:47 PM

"You slipped in the word "capitalist" when you mentioned social engineering. Why?"

Thatcherism to be more precise and what followed from there. Selling off affordable social housing. Dismantling traditional working-class industries. Outsourcing of workforce to cheaper foreign labour. A pretty crude summation as said.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: Musket
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 01:09 PM

I don't know what a working class industry is, please enlighten me.

I used to work down the pit and Th*tcher had a hand in my industry's demise, but speaking for myself (and many many more) I don't drink Special Brew or have a victim mentality. In fact, despite the huge amounts of condescending claptrap by patronising Guardian readers, most workers from traditional industries have either retired or got off their arses and found work because I suspect many of the issues mentioned here are about having the will to work or not, and once you have a comfortable lifestyle through effort, you tend to keep looking for it.

In fact, I have a sneaking suspicion that low expectations lead to low attainment. Perhaps at the risk of sounding radical, the usual "blame a political party / system that doesn't float your boat" may not be much use to those who have either been failed by all colours of government or who would choose to enlist your undoubted sympathy.   

The woods are full of both. Not sure a single solution would help, and especially not a solution based on finding political scapegoats for all society's ills. Politicians cannot and don't affect society as much as they set out to do. If they did, then we would all be buggered.

Subject: RE: BS: Teenage Mothers in the UK
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 01:09 PM

"Do you really think moving away from social democracy with a market economy will eradicate the Special Brew elite and Accident & Emergency frequent flyers' club?"

No I don't Ian, I think there will always be those who don't wish to participate in whatever the societal norm is supposed to be. Perhaps such individuals are too individualistic in nature or perhaps they are simply fucked-up in some way, or maybe they reject the "have more, be better" aspirations of most people. Who knows, but there will always be those who won't dance to the tune of social conformity, whatever tune that may be, and so end up (either by design or default) living on the edge of approved societal norms.

I'm unsure if it is still the case in the Netherlands, but one scheme the Dutch implemented which seemed highly pragmatic to me, was to allow those who wished to 'opt-out' to do so on the understanding that they would receive basic state benefits in return for not accepting any paid work for five years. No need to sign on or otherwise go cap in hand to the benefit office. My understanding of this scheme was that it was based on the notion that any vigorous economy results in a percentage of it's population necessarily being unemployed? But that's something I'm no informed position to argue one way or the other.