Corbyns second referendum proposal

Subject: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 05:34 AM

Opinions please

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 05:39 AM

I have a feeling this issue will be fully dealt with on the Brexit thread Dick.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 05:39 AM

First things first. This would not be the second referendum asking if we should stay in the EU but the third.

The first was on 5 June 1975 in the United Kingdom to gauge support for the country's continued membership of the European Communities (EC)

The second was on Thursday 23 June 2016. The United Kingdom voted for the second time in 41 years on its membership to what is now known as the European Union (EU)

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 09:20 AM

no dave , you are wrong 1975 was about the EEC, THEY ARE DIFFERENT THE eecIS DIFFERENT FROM THE EU

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 09:24 AM

It would actually be the first referendum. Both the others asked more or less the same question. This one will presumably be asking us to choose between a particular deal or remaining. Very different. But it isn't the point. It shouldn't even be on the table, because any politician worth their salt should be running a mile from brexit and insisting that we remain in the EU in the country's best interests.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: RTim
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 09:30 AM

As the first one was deemed by the Courts - Illegal; but could not be Voided as it was supposed to be Non-binding and only Advisory....It seems the only real option should be another Referendum - one where you really know what is being voted for.....

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 09:40 AM

I would prefer Gen. Election but would settle for second Referendum. There would be no point in a General Election if both parties still divided on Brexit, so clear Labour "Remain" and clear Tory "Leave" would settle issue once and for all. I am a Remainer and believe many (most?) leavers were misled and ignorant of the true cost of Leave. Now they have no excuse: let's see if they still vote the same. Those Labour MPs in Leave constituencies who are scared to com out as Remainers ought to be able to point their members to job losses already happening and loss of worker rights and protection if we leave Europe. Any racist "they're taking our jobs" anti-immigrant people have no place in a Labour party. Are we going to see redundant Nissan workers rushing to pick swedes in Lincolnshire or retrain to work in care homes and NHS? I doubt it.

Rant over.
RtS

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 09:42 AM

In what way are they different, Dick?

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 10:40 AM

There's no more talk from leavers about all those golden opportunities outside the EU and there's definitely no more NHS bus money, and Theresa May is far more undemocratic than the EU, so the only reasons left for voting leave are xenophobic and racist ones.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 11:36 AM

Of course the fact the vote was to leave the EU the first time around, and confirmed by a subsequent General Election and overwhelming vote for article 50, is considered meaningless by remainiacs.
Democracy is founded on a democratic vote strangely enough.
We are ruled by our elected representatives by consent.
Betray the democratic vote and trust is withdrawn.

Civil wars have been fought over less.

That is the situation we find ourselves in and no amount of parroting about this and that will alter the fact.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 11:53 AM

Dave gnome ,do some research if you do not know the difference , if there was no difference what was the point of renaming it? .

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 12:46 PM

"It shouldn't even be on the table, because any politician worth their salt should be running a mile from brexit and insisting that we remain in the EU in the country's best interests."

Couldn't agree more!!!

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:05 PM

Should the democratic vote be overturned the next step in federalism will be full political union, totally centralised taxation, national legislatures rendered obsolete, AN EU defence force supplanting Nato and full on gallop towards a United States of Europe.
Whinge and witter as you will but that is the roadmap set out!
Also when the next depression strikes it is your bank accounts that will be raided.
You can depend upon it!


https://www.federalists.eu/fileadmin/files_uef/Events/2018/Milan_march_training_weekend/Milan_Reading_list_ONLINE.pdf

eg-ego.eu/en/threads/models-and-stereotypes/model-europe/georg-kreis-concepts-of-europe-federalism-federal-state-confederation-o
https://www.cairn.info/revue-l-europe-en-formation-2012-1-page-325.htm

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:27 PM

yes but are you for a second referendum?

if you are, how should JC go about getting it?

Is it in fact a cynical ploy to stop the haemorrhage of MP's from the Labour Party?

I really don't want to hear all the well worn abuse of the campaign - that will start up soon enough if we have a second referendum.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 01:46 PM

Big Al Corbyn has major major problems with credibility. He has been anti EU since the year dot. His nearest and dearest in the party are hell bent on remaining. To keep them sweet he has to change tack and support remain. This quite clearly demonstrates he has no morality and will betray anything and anyone if he thinks it will serve him well. His party membership may be over the moon but the electorate in the heartlands will extract their revenge for his betrayal of them.
I do not expect to see him on the scene in a years time.
Come the next election there will be a reckoning unprecedented in british politics. This assumes hell does not break loose first. This is not a good place to be!

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 02:09 PM

as Dame Edith Evans once said - i think you are confusing me with someone who gives a shit....

i think it will take more than the current mass neurosis to disrupt voting patterns.

As Christopher Logue wrote, I will vote Labour or my balls will drop off.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 03:14 PM

TheresaMay destroyed her credibilty a long time ago, which rather lessens the so called lack of credibilty of JC. I DO NOT EXPECT TO SEE HER AROUND IN A YEARS TIME

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 03:58 PM

Dave gnome ,do some research

I have done extensive research, Dick. The EEC was a trade organisation. The EU is a trade organisation. Beyond that the EU had introduced its own currency and the Schengen Agreement, neither of which we subscribe to. In addition there are EU laws, which we assist in drafting and cross community cooperation on science and culture. So, basically, it is just the same as it was, with added benefits.

Now, you tell me how you think that the 2016 question was any different to the 1975 one.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 05:07 PM

well there were seven countries then, theres more now.

i don't think its worth discussing. No one listens to what you say. They make up all sorts of bullshit to support their arguments. Then they call you names.

I do think its worth discussing this second referendum though. I think it offers the chance of resolution of an issue that has been very divisive.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 05:17 PM

gNOME, READ THIS CAREFULLY.The European Economic Community (EEC) was a regional organisation which aimed to bring about economic integration among its member states. It was created by the Treaty of Rome of 1957.[2] Upon the formation of the European Union (EU) in 1993, the EEC was incorporated and renamed as the European Community (EC). In 2009 the EC's institutions were absorbed into the EU's wider framework and the community ceased to exist.

The Community's initial aim was to bring about economic integration, including a common market and customs union, among its six founding members: Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and West Germany. It gained a common set of institutions along with the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) and the European Atomic Energy Community (EURATOM) as one of the European Communities under the 1965 Merger Treaty (Treaty of Brussels). In 1993, a complete single market was achieved, known as the internal market, which allowed for the free movement of goods, capital, services, and people within the EEC. In 1994, the internal market was formalised by the EEA agreement. This agreement also extended the internal market to include most of the member states of the European Free Trade Association, forming the European Economic Area covering 15 countries.

Upon the entry into force of the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, the EEC was renamed the European Community to reflect that it covered a wider range than economic policy. This was also when the three European Communities, including the EC, were collectively made to constitute the first of the three pillars of the European Union, which the treaty also founded. The EC existed in this form until it was abolished by the 2009 Treaty of Lisbon, which incorporated the EC's institutions into the EU's wider framework and provided that the EU would "replace and succeed the European Community".

The EEC was also known as the Common Market in the English-speaking countries and sometimes referred to as the European Community even before it was officially renamed as such in 1993.
gnome, please note
1.The Community's initial aim was to bring about economic integration, including a common market and customs union
2,Upon the entry into force of the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, the EEC was renamed the European Community to reflect that it covered a wider range than economic policy.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 05:42 PM

They make up all sorts of bullshit to support their arguments. Then they call you names.

Al succinctly sums up the modus operandi of the resident regressive left cabal. Bravo.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 06:26 PM

Speaketh the cowardly pseudo-man who called perfectly decent people Jew-haters from beneath the parapet. You hypocrite.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 06:40 PM

Boom!.....Al's characterization hits the target.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Feb 19 - 08:27 PM

And with friends like you, why would Al need enemies?

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 03:16 AM

"You hypocrite."
AS he busts a gut supporting a regime which is now openly supporting anti=Semitic parties and racist groups which are even being condemned by Jewish religious leaders as comparable to the KKK, you may write that down in very large letters Steve
I can think of six million people who would be very proud of him

The greatest and most open hypocrisy here comes from those who have constantly used 'the democratic people's choice' as an argument for leaving Europe but would choose to walk over red-hot razor blades rather than confirm that choice now the consequences of that decision has become clear
It seems that, to some, 'the people's choice' is only valid when it coincides with their own
Jim

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 04:14 AM

Can anyone understand the following from our member from the timewarp 1940's?

"The greatest and most open hypocrisy here comes from those who have constantly used 'the democratic people's choice' as an argument for leaving Europe but would choose to walk over red-hot razor blades rather than confirm that choice now the consequences of that decision has become clear"

Is it something in the water?

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 04:14 AM

Dick, I asked how you think it is different. You provided a stock cut and paste that summarised with the following phrase

Upon the entry into force of the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, the EEC was renamed the European Community to reflect that it covered a wider range than economic policy.

I state one again that of that 'wider range' we subscribe to neither the common currency nor the Schengen agreement. We do partake in the deciding which laws are enacted and in cross community scientific and cultural exchange. The main aim of the EU that we subscribe to is the same as the aim that the EEC had in 1975, I.E. integrated economic policy.

Now, once again, how you think it is different?

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 04:28 AM

The answer is in the clip i sent you read it, its there.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:36 AM

I have read it. It does not tell me what you think is the difference between the EEC and the EU other than 'it covers a wider range than economic policy'. What bits of that 'wider range' do you believe makes any difference to how the EU works with the UK now compared to how it did in 1975? We are not in the Euro zone. We are not part of the Schengen agreement. As far as I am concerned, there is nothing in that 'wider range' that significantly alters the UKs relationship with the EU. You think there is. What makes you think that?

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 05:50 AM

And, while we are members, there will be no European army and no ever-closer union, because if the UK says no it can't happen. And we have said no.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 07:00 AM

And we have said no.
but the EU says yes.
They know a teensy wheensy bit more than a pontificating exteacher I reckon

https://euobserver.com/institutional/139630

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/853604/Jean-Claude-Juncker-veto-power-EU-remove-government-trade-deal

I recall some person demanding the tide go back. The episode is frequently alluded to in contexts where the futility of "trying to stop the tide" of an inexorable event is pointed out.

Are you paying attention shaw?

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 09:59 AM

Well...does anybody think my thoughts about Corbyn and the second referendum are worth discussing. How should he achieve this?
And would it resolve the conflict if your side didn't win?

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 10:43 AM

Dave read it again it is all explained, it covers a wider range than economic policy
The European Union Today

Today the EU is still dealing with many major issues (including the ongoing migration crisis and the upcoming Brexit). And, amid rising concerns with Brexit, the EU has reportedly begun considering creating an independent system to conduct financial transactions - that would exclude the United States, according to Newsweek.

German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas wrote in German paper Handelsblatt about concerns over the current state of financial affairs in the EU, especially in relation to the United States.

"Where the U.S. crosses red lines, we as Europeans must counterbalance," Maas wrote in an opinion piece. "It is, therefore, essential that we strengthen European autonomy by setting up payment channels independent of the USA, creating a European Monetary Fund and building an independent Swift system."

However, apart from EU-U.S. tensions, the union is caught in the middle of several other controversies.How Is the European Union Governed?

As mentioned earlier, the European Union is governed by three main bodies - the EU Council, the EU Parliament and the EU Commission.

The Council's main job is to create and propose new policies and legislation for the European Union; it operates under a different EU president every six months.

The Parliament then debates and passes the laws proposed by the Council, electing members once every five years.

Finally, the Commission enforces and operates the laws for the European Union - the current president of which is Jean-Claude Juncker (until 2019).

Additionally, the European Central Bank services the EU's financial needs and manages things like inflation rates and foreign exchange reserves.

Still, individual citizens allegedly have say in the democratically structured union. According to the official site, citizens have a variety of ways to contribute, including "by giving their views on EU policies during their development or suggest improvements to existing laws and policies. The European citizens' initiative empowers citizens to have a greater say on EU policies that affect their lives. Citizens can also submit complaints and inquiries concerning the application of EU law."

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 10:52 AM

Yes, Dick. I know all that. It has not affected the UK one bit and the line about "the EU reportedly begun considering creating an independent system to conduct financial transactions" is just speculation. If the UK were in the EU we could vote against or even veto this proposal if we did not like it. Outside the EU we can do sweet FA about it.

The EU is different as we all know. You have failed to present any evidence that the UKs position in the EU is any different to what it was in 1975.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 11:18 AM

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 11:19 AM

Oh RATS... sorry, you guys... all I meant to click was the Add To Tracer thingy, not the message textbox. (I hates touch-screens, I does. Damn things keep jumping around, got a life of their own.)

While I'm on here: Can anybody tell me how to enable the BS section to show? I just downloaded a new browser and it's hidden from view by default for some reason. (I mean, why waste time working when you can argue with folks on the internet, right?) Thanks in advance -

#gluttonforpunishment

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 12:23 PM

the EU itself states that it is different.1.The Community's initial aim was to bring about economic integration, including a common market and customs union .
2,Upon the entry into force of the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, the EEC was renamed the European Community to reflect that it covered a wider range than economic policy.
tHE EUROPEAN COMUNITY states that its pupose is to cover wider range than econmic policy, i suggest you contact them and ask.
i have more important things to do as a possible result of a no deal fuck up like changing my driving licence, i have not got time to waste on your pedantic shit

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 12:43 PM

Brexit or no Brexit, you are supposed to swap your British licence for an Irish one if you are resident in Ireland for more than 100 days. That law has never been enforced and didn’t matter while both licences were European.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Feb 19 - 02:53 PM

The EU has changed since 1975. The UKs position in it has not. The major changes in the EU, the Eurozone and the Schengen Agreement do not affect us one jot. That is not being pedantic. Just stating fact. The other fact is that you have not come up with anything to dispute that so you are resorting to abuse. Fair enough, no skin off my nose but does nothing for your argument.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 01:37 AM

Dave, this thread is about Corbyns second referendeum stick to the subject if you want to discuss other things start a new thread.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 02:09 AM

To be a little pedantic: there is no such thing as Corbyn's second referendum. There is a movement from a wide number of people and bodies with backing from some parts of the media, like "The Independent". To suggest it is Corbyn's is misleading.

If you mean you are interested in why he has decided to get behind the idea now, or what alternatives he wants to see on such a referendum, that is fair enough, but those things don't really distinguish him from any other supporter of the idea. And, based on the thread so far, those aspects don't seem to be what is being discussed.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 02:50 AM

well yes, there is no thing called Corbyn's 2nd referendum.

but if he wanted it - how would he go about getting it., and would it go any way to solving all the argy bargy?

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 02:57 AM

Dave, this thread is about Corbyns second referendeum stick to the subject if you want to discuss other things start a new thread.

I am discussing the referendum, Dick. As long as you keep referring to it as the second referendum, I shall keep disputing that. It is a fact that there have already been 2 referendums on whether we stay in Eurore, one in 1975 and one in 2016. You keep saying they were different but as yet you have not come up with anything showing what was different about them.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 03:07 AM

the number is immaterial. the question is could it be effected. And would it help the situation?

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 03:12 AM

stick to the subject , dave, i have messaged you if you want to discuss the effects of the lisbon treaty and maastricht on the uk start another thread ans stop messing this one up

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Iains
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 03:38 AM

The European Economic Community (EEC) was a regional organisation which aimed to bring about economic integration among its member states. It was created by the Treaty of Rome of 1957

By the Maastricht Treaty (formally known as the Treaty on European Union; 1991), which went into force on November 1, 1993, the European Economic Community was renamed the European Community and was embedded into the EU as the first of its three “pillars”

The Treaty of Maastricht (1992) created the European Union as a single body of "three pillars". The pillars consist of the:
1) European Communities(the EEC),
2) Common Foreign and Security Policy
2) Cooperation in Justice and Home affairs.

referendum one voted on one pillar
referendum 2 voted on three pillars

There is a significant difference between the content of the two referendums, and not just numerical.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 03:43 AM

My point is material to this tbread, Dick. If you have any issues with my postings I suggest you take it up with the moderation team. You said it was the second referendum in public. I am not going to argue against that in private.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 04:13 AM

well yes, there is no thing called Corbyn's 2nd referendum.

but if he wanted it - how would he go about getting it., and would it go any way to solving all the argy bargy?

I made my point about it not being Coebyn's referendum because there is something called 'framing' which can distort things substantially. There are people who would never vote for anything if it came from th3 Tories. There are also people who would never vote for anything if it came from Labour. So calling this 'Corbyn's referendum" will, intentionally or otherwise, amplify that distortion.

How will Labour go about getting a second referendum? There is talk of nodding through May's deal in exchange for the referendum. That is probably not acceptable to May, but if she did agree it would work.

Argy-bargy is, I am afraid, our fate for a decade or so more irrespective. If May's deal is accepted - well done, we have got the easy bit out of the way. Now come years of tough arguments about each and every deal. If we go to a referendum the arguments will continue unless one side or the other wins by a huge margin - at least 20% I would say. If remain win by 52-48 for example, most leavers who have said "We won, get over it" will suddenly think that is not a persuasive a4gument at all. If leave win, I suspect a lot more remainers will accept it, but it won't stop them pointing out every problem and blaming it on Brexit.

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 10:24 AM

The 'Peoples Vote was described on last night's Question Time as a 'Rigged Referendum' because it gives Leavers no choice. Since the last referendum resulted in a vote to leave the only valid referendum to follow it would be a choice between leaving with May's deal or leaving on WTO rules. That would be a referendum I would support, as would most leave supporters. Of course the Remainers would not allow that to happen..

Subject: RE: Corbyns second referendum proposal
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Mar 19 - 12:01 PM

We are all prone to have too high an opinion of ourselves. That would be the only referendum you regard as valid. Which is a completely different thing from the only valid referendum.