Political Fallout At House Concert

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:48 PM

Yo! got that 100 anyway!!

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Melissa
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 05:58 PM

I wouldn't apologize or refund money..

It's hard telling why the ladies got a bee in their nethers and it's for them to deal with..not the host.

What I would do is send a nice, friendly note (mentioning that I represent myself--not speaking for the band) and a couple tickets..marked "disgruntled patron comp" so whomever is at the door can know to keep an eye out in case disgruntlement is a favorite hobby of whomever uses the tickets.
If the tickets aren't used, the gesture has been made. Who knows, one of the ladies might like to come back without a cranky sidekick.

If you're going to eat $40, it seems sensible to do it on your own terms rather than as response/reward to bratty behavior.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Lad
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 06:50 PM

Well Sol?
You told the story, asked a question and so far, nothing more from you.
Seems to me that there are a few different viewpoints here.
Some say "Tough luck, ladies"
others "Keep the customer satisfied"
and then there's some kind of "Liberal" debate going on that has nothing at all to do with the subject at hand.
So maybe you could step in and just explain why you refused to give these two particular ladies their own donations back at this particular show.
You did know who you were hiring, right?
You knew that they were Anti Bush, right?
You warned everyone, right?
They gave a donation and changed their minds.
Beats me why you chose to respond the way you did.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:11 PM

> "In the middle of the first set, when the music started to turn political this lady and her friend got up and approached me asking for their money back"

This does not suggest to me that Sol knew beforehand they were anti-Bush.

> "The 2 ladies walked out but I refused to refund their money for 2 reasons..."
suggests to me that Sol has already explained why. What's the need to step in and explain all over again?

I think Melissa's idea is brilliant.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 07:11 PM

"What may be gained with kindness will often exceed the value of a small admission price. "

Well put Sandy. The title of this thread is misleading - Sol described a "political fallout" but the question he asked really has nothing to do with politics - it is a question of how you run your business.

I'm reminded of a story about the late Dave Van Ronk. Dave was appearing on Oscar Brand's radio show.   Oscar was playing a piece sung by Burl Ives. Dave told Oscar he should not be playing Ives because of what he did during the McCarthy era. Dave felt that Ives should not be played on a folk radio show.   Oscar simply told Dave - "those of us on the left do not resort to blacklisting".

The reason I mention that story is because if we truly learn the definition of "liberal" as Richard suggests, we need to put it to use on both sides of the policital spectrum.   While I would be upset at someone leaving because they did not agree with a view expressed on the "stage", I would hope that my response falls in line with the way I want the "business" to be run.   Are the policies consistent?   Can I afford the increased attention from local authorities should this get to small claims court, or an angry letter to the editor in a local paper?

I was not there, but I would guess that those two biddies completely missed the points that Magpie makes on stage. If they could not be made to understand that, it is their loss. I would just consider the future opportunities for other artists - you want to make sure that stage is there so that others views as well as artistic expression have an opportunity to be shared.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:02 PM

I kind of suspect that Magpie would have no truck with pandering to the pair of Palins.

It's sort of "Goodnight, and may your God go with you"

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: John Hardly
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 09:10 PM

I agree in theory with pdq. But in reality, I am so used to enjoying the music (and company) of those who have a different political opinion than I, that I'm just sort of numb to the political rants of entertainers. Maybe it should have mattered more to me.

If I'd have been pissed off about anything at the concert, it might have had to do with the comparative amount of time spent between playing music and political rants. After all, I came for the music.

Shut up and play already.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:48 PM

There is one thing one must always bear in mind when one plays a song that attacks some political or social viewpoint: it will upset certain people.

This sometimes comes as a startling surprise to the performer, since one is usually cruising along in one's own accustomed groove and expecting the audience to relate to it...but the rule in life is dead simple: if you openly attack something, you are going to get someone's back up when you do, so be prepared for a counterattack.

I was quite surprised, for instance, one time when I played a song that has a whole lot of different social comment in it, but I made some off-the-cuff satirical comments linking General Norman Schwarzkopf to one of the verses (a critical one). So this guy who'd been listening to a lot of my stuff during the evening and liking it came over afterward quite annoyed and said that he had served personally under General Schwarzkopf and considered him to be a great man.

I said, "Really? Okay, well, tell me about it." So we talked for a bit and he told me about some of his experiences fighting in the Gulf War. In other words, I gave him a chance to tell me his side of the story, and I showed interest in what he had to say. When he was done, I said, "Well, I can't argue with your personal experiences. You've known the man, and I haven't, so I'm sorry that my comments upset you."

And that, basically was the end of it. It could have been a nasty situation if I'd decided to fight with him about it and try to prove him "wrong", but I didn't, because what use would it serve? Everyone's got their own viewpoint on things, it arises directly out of their own experience, and they usually have plenty of what are good reasons (from their point of view) for them to feel the way they do. I am willing to meet people halfway when it comes to that.

And I mostly avoid singing material that directly attacks someone else who is living in my society...though I do sing about common problems we are all facing.

Let's face it. When you sing those kind of "attack" songs you are singing to the choir. Sometimes whoever is out there listening is not part of the choir. If so, you will have added a little more bad feeling to someone else's day, and I'm not so sure that's a very useful thing to do.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 10:54 PM

Ron et al-

"Blacklisting"?

I'm not sure how that practice has anything to do with Sol coordinating a house concert.

His guests made a choice to leave the concert but demanded their money back because the performers didn't meet their criteria of what should be sung. In my opinion they have no claim for a refund. Sol is entirely within his rights to invite whatever performers he wants to his house concerts, even Burl Ives (although Ives is not operational currently).

Are you suggesting that any house concert host should affirmatively invite the full spectrum of political aligned singers, from left to right, Democratic to Republican, Green Party to Red Party, John Birch Society to John (Jack) Reed Club? If so I disagree with you.

However, I do agree with Oscar Brand that Burl Ives should be broadcast on a folk music radio show, even though Ives did help blacklist many other fine folk music performers. He was a fine singer and an inspiration to many. And Oscar Brand was familiar with what Ives had done long before he was confronted by Dave Van Ronk.

As a further aside, In 1959, Dick Ellington and Dave Van Ronk wrote and self-published THE BOSS'S SONGBOOK, the subtitle of which was "Songs to Stifle the Flames of Discontent." It was supposed to be a humorous collection, consciously modeled on the IWW Little Red Songbook. Some on the left were not amused.

The question of what house concerts one as a guest should consider going to is an entirely different question, and it is a matter of personal taste and experience. Refunds should not have any role in that consideration, in my opinion, unless the performers are unable to make their gig.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: meself
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:10 PM

Charley - I took Ron's comment about 'blacklisting' to be directed at your comment that you might not attend a concert by a certain person whose political views were anathema to you, rather than concerning Sol's situation ... The 'blacklist' idea being a bit of an extrapolation ...

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:14 PM

""Blacklisting"?

I'm not sure how that practice has anything to do with Sol coordinating a house concert."

Charlie, either I did not explain myself correctly or you were not paying attention. You took this on a completely wrong tangent and I suggest you re-read the comments I made after I related the story. This has nothing to do with comparing it to a blacklist.

My comment was directed at the idea of "liberal" that has been thrown about here. More people are expressing outrage that someone would show a display disagreeing with a performer whose politics 99% of us agree with.

Would you give someone their money back if they became ill or had another reason to leave? Is your policy consistent - or is the decision based on disagreement with their political stance? The point is being even handed, and if you follow through with your policy for all cases, you have no issues.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: meself
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:22 PM

(Okay, so I wasn't really paying attention either ... !)

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Sep 08 - 11:42 PM

You were closer meself! :)   

I thought I was fairly clear before I mentioned that story. The basis of this entire thread is not about a "political fallout" - Sol is asking for his opinion on how it was handled.

My mention of that story showed how Oscar Brand displayed an even handed approach to a request that effected his "business" - a radio show.

Sol had a request, and I do believe he also employed the same even handed approach in what was good for his "business" - a concert series.

Again, my point is to everyone that felt it is an easy decision. Are you consistent?   Would you treat other requests for refunds with the same standard.

That becomes closer to what the true definition of "liberal" is all about. It is beyond politics.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: JedMarum
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:12 AM

Wow - I guess this has nearly run it's course before I got here but this is a subject that interests me.

First of all SOL, I agree with what seems to be the majority here; that you certainly do not have to return their money. You would be reasonable to do so, if you chose - but perfectly within your rights not to and only you know what's best.

I have had people walk out of my shows over things I said - or tell me they thought what I said or sang about was highly offensive;

One group of three left a concert in Phoenix when I sang about a band of Confederate soldiers. The song was in no way offensive. It was not a South Will Rise Again song or anything - but I guess these folks don't believe Confederates could ever be heroes.

I had a couple of folks in Mississippi get up and walk out of a show when I sang the Battle Hymn of the Republic. They later explained to me the song was really a hateful song aimed at crushing the South after the Civil War. I didn't really get it, but at least they weren't mad at me; they just figured I didn't know.

I had a woman in Massachusetts tell me the song LEE HARVEY WAS A FRIEND OF MINE was the most offensive thing she'd heard in all her life. The song pokes fun at the beer guzzling redneck who tells the story about how he doesn't think Ozwald was the assassin because Lee was his neighbor when he was a kid, and Lee was nice to him. It's a silly song - but not an offensive song.

And I had man write to the president of the Austin Celtic Festival complaining that I was extremely racist and insensitive because I told the story about someone who sailed the Atlantic in his nine foot sail boat. He told the TV reporter, "I left Portland Maine a Scotsman and I arrived in Falmouth England a Mexican because I lived on canned Chili for 76 days."

In none of these instances did it even occur to me that I was saying or doing anything offensive - and I am certain that in none of these instances should I have given offense to someone who really understood what I saying ... but sometimes people take offense. It makes me wonder how many times I may have inadvertently offended someone and don't know about it. I think this only makes me more careful to be true to saying what I mean as clearly as possible.

I don't preach, as a performer. I know some folks are really good at the political performing thing and I do respect it - but my interest in performing is at the lower levels; the human levels. True these are the places or the levels from which our political opinions spring - and I am sure you would catch the underpinnings of my political opinions from my shows - but that is not the point.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: JedMarum
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:26 AM

Oh sorry - I didn't explain why my 'people walking out on me' was germane to this discussion.

I liken my responses to each of these situations I list above to yours SOL. I wondered "should I attempt damage repair" whether or not I agree with the offended party? Or should I let it go? I have to say I've done both. Most of the time I've said "I am sorry to have offended, it was not my intention." And I was earnest when I said this, even though I believed they should not have been offended.

But one of these times I determined the person was truly unreasonable and not genuine in their alleged "offense" - so I declined to comment at all.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: GregMagpie
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:00 AM

Well, this is all so fascinating.
Greg Artzner of Magpie here, writing for both myself and my partner Terry. I'm reading these comments to her before we post them. As the artists in question, we appreciate all of the comments. We have thoroughly enjoyed reading the various points of view, both in favor of refund and opposed to it, supportive of political statements in folk music and against them. We also appreciate the comments regarding the core of the issue for Sol, which is: "how do you deal with such a situation?" Many excellent points made here on both sides of every issue.
   First, since most of you weren't there, I'd like to let you all know what the 2 women were responding to. In her email to Sol one of the two women characterized our performance as "hateful, sarcastic, political mudslinging" and "hateful slander." The songs that they actually heard that apparently riled them up were nothing of the kind, and the proof is that the entire evening was video recorded. They were a couple of songs that deal with war. The first was one we wrote entitled "Where Have They All Gone?" which asks serious questions about the impact of the betrayal of all of us by political "leaders." It's based on the premise that unlike during the Vietnam war, the casualties and costs of the war in Iraq are well-hidden from us by design of the administration in collusion with submissive media. We followed that song with Phil Ochs' classic, "Is There Anybody Here?" introducing it with comments about the fact that the song was partly responsible for the stand I took against the Vietnam war as a conscientious objector. These songs are strong indeed, but "hateful, sarcastic, political mudslinging" and "hateful slander" they are absolutely not. Nor were our introductory remarks. If there was any hate expressed is was hatred of war and betrayal, certainly not of any person or group. The remaining songs in the set, including the ones before we "got political" were songs dealing with a spectrum of the human experience, including one song that pays tribute to the sockeye salmon which we preceded with a host of fish jokes! The disgruntled woman said we engaged in "hateful slander." Slander is malicious falsehood aimed at injury of another. I am afraid the only person engaged in slander here is her.
Terry and I truly appreciate the voices of support here from people who have heard us and know our music. Indeed it is true, our motivation has always been to be thoughtful as well as provocative and entertaining in support of the big causes: peace, justice, freedom, equality, environmental responsibility. They are issues that transcend politics, transcend political party. We certainly are proud to call ourselves progressives, but that is because we are committed to progress, not to any particular political ideology. We would never engage in "hate speech," but at the same time we won't cower from calling things as we see them, based upon the best information we have at our disposal. We are always willing to discuss controversial issues with members of our audiences who disagree. We have done it many times over the years. We only wish these women had stayed around long enough that we could have spoken with them during the intermission.
   As far as the issue of refund is concerned, I completely concur with the idea of non-refund for any type of performance. If I walked out of a performance mid way through the first set, which I would NOT do under similar circumstances, I would never expect a refund, no matter what my reasons for wanting to leave might be. I think these women were extremely rude to storm out of an intimate concert as they did, interrupting Sol's enjoyment of the program he had worked to present, to demand their money back from him. Terry and I have not yet decided whether we will refund the money. After all, it's already been spent. We put it into our fuel tank, and it's well on it's way to the coffers of the oil magnates, Cheney, et al. Seriously, we might just send her a check because frankly we don't want her money. We also would prefer to take the pressure off of Sol and the venue and diffuse the whole issue of small claims and ill publicity. But before we send her her money, we will attempt to engage her in a thoughtful email exchange regarding this whole affair.
There have been so many comments made that we would love to address directly, but too many to do so. Thank you all for helping us to find perspective on all the issues involved. We will keep your thoughts in mind.
   peace,
   Greg & Terry

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: astro
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:32 AM

Since the money has been sent along with the performers, how about leaving it up to them....obviously, the poor sods have not been out much and have yet to learn that what they find out of the house may be not on Fox....

Astro....

(hardly any sense on humor on the right is there....)

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 02:47 AM

This whole discussion has been fascinating to read and ponder upon- and it's a question that I have considered myself. There probably is no definitive answer. It wouldn't occur to me to ask for my money back, no matter how violently I disagreed with the message. I might be disgruntled that I had wasted the money or that I had inadvertently supported the offensive cause but I think I would figure that by word of mouth I could negate its effect. :)

However, Greg appearing in the thread and giving his view wraps it up very well. Thank you.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 03:08 AM

Whether something is "offensive" or not is strictly a matter of individual perception.

Be that as it may, I am not impressed by people who storm out of some concert and make a big deal about asking for their money back. I think it's a form of grandstanding, and it's a form of emotional blackmail. They're just trying to get their pound of flesh and prove how morally superior they are to whoever they're angry at. Some people like to grandstand in that fashion, but I'm not well impressed by it when they do. I think it's obnoxious.

If you don't like a performance, just leave. What the heck? Get on with the rest of your life. You can't control what other people choose to do in a musical performance and you shouldn't expect to.

The sooner you let go of something that upset you, the sooner that particular monkey is off your back. Those women appear determined to carry that monkey for as long as they possibly can. Litigation lawyers LOVE people who can't dump the monkey off their back...cos without such people those lawyers would soon be out of a large amount of work, wouldn't they?

What is a (litigation) lawyer's dream? People who cannot and WILL not let go...or forget...or forgive.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 03:57 AM

I am reminded of the Hobgoblin Brewery advertising slogan:

"What's the matter Lager boy, afraid you might taste something?"

If you bought a pint of beer and decided halfway down you didn't like the taste, would the barman give you your money back? I suspect not.

A concert is rather like a pint of beer - it can be the same beer (performers) but in different venues it will have a different flavour (content or character)... if you don't like the beer in one pub, either don't go back to that pub or try different beer.

They heard something they didn't like... perhaps they were afraid they might be made to think.

LTS

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Lad
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:10 AM

Well, well.
I had been looking at this from a strictly business point of view.
vis. A customer gets upset and asks for their money back. What would I do? I've been quite clear as have about 50% of the people here that the most practical solution would be to refund and apologize. That's simply good business practice.
But now we have another element to the debate.
One of the players has decided to offer their twopence worth and I don't quite know what to make of that.
My mind hasn't changed at all about refunds, that's a no brainer nor do I think Sol would set this up as some kind of publicity for these guys although his total absence after starting this thread is a mystery to me.
What really has me curious about these entertainers has a lot more to do with what I don't see.
Compassion, I suppose. Empathy. The ability to look at your fellow human being and imagine what it must be like from their point of view.
Important attributes for any entertainer.
So here's a thing.
I am no fan of George Bush. That's fairly well known around here. As a matter of fact, I can't stand the guy but with 3.000 American soldiers dead I can't see any way on God's green earth that I would go to America and try to make a living singing anti Bush or ant war songs. For one, that would be earning a living from the war and I couldn't bring myself to do that but more importantly, sooner or later you are going to find yourself singing to a couple of grieving mothers.
And when that happens you'll be lucky if all they want is their money back

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:13 AM

At the end of the day Jim you have to decide whether your principles are more important than the money.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Lad
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:19 AM

I'm an entertainer.
I'd like to save the world without hurting anyone's feelings.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 04:31 AM

A lovely thought Jim, but like Arlo says - "you wanna end war and stuff you gotta sing loud!"

LTS

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: kendall
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 09:11 AM

I've only had two people walk out of a performance. I sang a song called Big Ellie Mae. Learned it from Gordon Menzies in Scotland. It's about a golf pro who was trying to teach a woman who was, shall we say,
top heavy? when he said, .."I've only seen two that could swing like yours do, and they were on a Camel I saw in the zoo" They left. Now, if they had listened to the rest of it, they would have heard,.." this pointed remark at the poor girl's physique made Ellie lash out in a great fit of pique, her blow caught the pro in his most tender spot, now he's got two just as big as she's got.."

The world is full of malcontents with very thin skins. Let them bugger off, who cares?

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 09:22 AM

Refusing to attend a concert based on the voting record of the performer (when his political views are never a part of the act) is blatant blacklisting.I wish Pete Seeger would take a look at this thread and comment.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 09:32 AM

I think it's a personal choice, Mary. One person does not a black list make. I'd rather have unhappy people NOT attend. They're disruptive.

It's good to hear from you Greg, but I hope you make sure what you believe is good for Sol is what Sol wants.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: JedMarum
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 09:44 AM

I think I recognize one of those house concert singers mentioned above. Thanks for the kind comments, friends!

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 11:04 AM

Great to hear Greg's take on what actually happened. I still wonder how and why those two women found their way into an event for which they clearly had no empathy or understanding.

Also nice to hear from Jed. Every example he provided from his experience was certainly one where no one should have taken offense, but someone did and he seems to have reponded appropriately.

One question that's driving me nuts: whose song is "Lee Harvey Was Friend of Mine"? I've heard it and gotten a good laugh, but not recently; I know I should remember the artist, but I don't...

Subject: Lyr Add: LEE HARVEY WAS A FRIEND OF MINE
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 11:15 AM

LEE HARVEY WAS A FRIEND OF MINE
(Bennison/Cotton)

I was born in Dallas in 1952,
Lee Harvey moved across the street on Bentley Avenue,
He used to throw the ball to me when I was just a kid,
They say he shot the president---I don't think he did.

Cho: And Lee Harvey was a friend of mine,
He used to take me fishing all the time,
He used to throw the ball to me when I was just a kid,
They say he shot the president but I don't think he did.

I've seen them pictures of him with the family and a gun,
Shadows were pointin' every-which-a-way;
'Twas only just for fun,
Someone faked those photos; that's not the way it is,
They say he shot the president; I don't think he did.

I seen it on the TV when Lee Harvey got gunned down,
Murdered by Jack Ruby---the biggest sleaze in town,
He stuck that gun into his ribs;
Says, "Here's lookin' at you, kid,
Ruby killed Lee Harvey---TV proved he did!!

as sung by T.Texas Edwards and the Sickoids
Found this song on a red vinyl, 7-inch, 331/3 rpm record. Written by
"Bennison/Cotton"--Bennisongs/Ben-Jay Music(BMI). As released on
SFTRI 55---Sympathy For The Record Industry record company---4901
Virginia Ave.---Long Beach, CA. 90805

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Lad
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 11:17 AM

So the feeling is then that it was political?
Sounds to me that the ladies were right.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 11:50 AM

Whether the performance was political or controversial in any way, these two women came to someone's private home, listened only briefly, and then made a scene in the middle of the first set, demanding their money back. I would have firmly told them "No refunds, sorry, you're welcome to leave" and shown them the door. Regardless of their ideology, rude people like that are not welcome. If they had been reasonable and waited until the intermission to discuss their sensitivities with the performers, they might have warranted different treatment, and they might have even garnered some sympathy. Bah, humbug...

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:02 PM

Folk song is often political. Often it comes from a position on the left, sometimes from the right.

If I go to a folk performance, I know I can expect to hear political views expressed, either within the songs or by the artists between the songs (this is particularly likely when the political temperature is raised , and the US is of course in the run up to an election). They may or may not be views I share, but that needn't prevent me from enjoying the music. For example, I don't share Dick Gaughan's politics, but I greatly admire his music and I won't let my disagreement with some of what he says interfere with that.

The only reasons for asking for your money back, IMO, are that the performance was not what was advertised or the standard of performance didn't live up to your reasonable expectations. If you simply don't like it, whether on political or musical grounds, then too bad.

I've noticed that Americans take great pride in their constitutional right to free speech, but some seem to think it applies only to themselves and those who express views they agree with.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: mg
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:04 PM

That is sort of what I was thinking. WHat if they were Gold Star mothers. mg

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Lad
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:25 PM

What's a Gold Star Mother?

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:35 PM

http://www.goldstarmoms.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Star_Mothers

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Cool Beans
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:44 PM

A Gold Star Mother is one whose child was killed while serving in the U.S. armed forces.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Lad
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:47 PM

Got it!
Well that's pretty well been my thinking from the start.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 12:50 PM

Magpie have also made their political stance known from the start. Heat and kitchens come to mind.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Jim Lad
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:04 PM

Only comes to mind if you've actually heard of them.
I hadn't until now.
So they got their free publicity.
They've even had their say.
Was a great opportunity for them to put their best feet forward and I think they did that.

I'll be moving on now.

Don't be offended.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: billhudson
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:09 PM

My two cents…… It's a funny thing when people just want to sing like a record, no opinion, no thought just like what I call noise candy. Shut up and sing the song some say, but being human and myself having a mike in front of me, well it just comes out. If there was someone out there that wanted their money back because of something I would say, I have to pay for gas to get here and why not wait a minute and sit back and enjoy the show. But it sounds to me they did not do their homework.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:20 PM

> Only comes to mind if you've actually heard of them

Those two women went to see them, which means they at least knew the name and could have easily got info, which is readily available.

They are mature adults, and as such are responsibile for what they choose to expose themselves to. Performers should not be expected to take a financial loss (or censor their material) because someone who has voluntarily come to listen might disagree and get offended.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Fortunato
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:24 PM

Sol,
    In my opinion your decision was correct.
    Indeed, Greg and Terry's music carries on a critical tradition of social and political commentary in folksong. It is their right (and ours) here in the USA to use their art to raise the conciousness of their audience according to their beliefs. If the audience choses to retreat from that expression they may do so.
    I believe that Magpie's music is all the more timely and important in these times, for the bad news is so excruciatingly loud and unrelenting that society may turn away from sheer exhaustion. Magpie and we must continue to raise the cry of peace and justice and freedom, or we may all abrogate our responsibilities out of fatigue and lethargy.

Carry on Greg and Terry and Sol. I'm with you.
Chance Shiver

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:35 PM

My reaction would be to dislike the performer for lecturing me. Unless I agreed with the views expressed. If I felt strongly enough I would say something to organiser or performer.

If the ladies did not hear the whole concert and presumed the performers were not ballanced in the second half - then they would have to prove that, and accept they did not assess it fully. And if they interrupted the flow of the concert in any way you may have a counter-claim.

But I ain't no expert on legal matters and certainly not in another country.

Are the regulars to your concerts any help in providing suggestions or letters of support?

I did it once for Maglan (Princess Dinizulu) when a landlord tried all measure of tricks (on me as well) and she had to go to a small claims court when he instigated proceedings. I (and many of us) wrote to the judge. She won. She was collecting for charity.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:40 PM

"They are mature adults, and as such are responsibile for what they choose to expose themselves to."

A sign of a healthy concert series or venue is that the audience will come out and take a chance on artists they are not familiar with. IF the series or venue has a good history, the patron will have an idea of what to expect.   However, the person purchasing the ticket has the ultimate responsibility to know what they are seeing.

In the U.S. at least, I think anyone who goes to a concert that is labeled as "folk" should have some expectation that the possibility exists of political content being raised.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 01:57 PM

If the ladies did not hear the whole concert and presumed the performers were not ballanced in the second half.....

I am not sure where the idea that one should provide balance comes from. Utah Phillips never provided balance, nor would he have been expected to. When our beloved friend Jean Ritchie sings of the destroying of mountain tops for mining, should we expect her to take the side of the rapers of the land in the second half? When I sing the songs of the destruction of the working class, and the abuse of workers, should I be expected to sing songs glorifying capitalists and the boss in the second half? Should an Irish Nationalist sings songs in the second set glorifying the British empire?

Balance isn't required, but integrity and honesty about one's views are. The performer's only obligation is to deliver their music, whether topical or for entertainment value, in a professional manner. It is about the music, and the music is usually about an opinion or an honest human emotion. It is on the audience to choose who they see, and it is certainly their right to not see them again.

Nice job, Sol. When I finally get out there to play the Borderline, you may count on an honest performance from me, delivered as well as I can deliver it.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 02:21 PM

"My reaction would be to dislike the performer for lecturing me."

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I don't believe the performers were taken to task for "lecturing," but rather for the lyrical content of their songs. Tough luck if someone didn't like it.

******************************************

SINS: thanks for the lyrics and composer/recording-artists names for "Lee Harvey..."; however, I didn't recognize either "Bennison/Cotton" or "T.Texas Edwards and the Sickoids."

Upoon further consideration, I realized that I had heard this amusing number from another wacky group of Texans, the Asylum Street Spankers.

I wonder how those two old birds would have reacted to a Spankers show. If the political stuff didn't chase them home first, I'm sure they would be absolutely horrified by Christina Mars' rendition of "Shave 'Em Dry."

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 02:23 PM

Whether the performance was political or controversial in any way, these two women came to someone's private home, listened only briefly, and then made a scene in the middle of the first set, demanding their money back. I would have firmly told them "No refunds, sorry, you're welcome to leave" and shown them the door. Regardless of their ideology, rude people like that are not welcome. If they had been reasonable and waited until the intermission to discuss their sensitivities with the performers, they might have warranted different treatment, and they might have even garnered some sympathy. Bah, humbug...

Too true Barbara.

I put forward my view, further down in this thread, on the basis that these persons showed no manners whatsoever in making their objections known - they approached the organiser whilst the concert was underway, thus spoiling his enjoyment and, most likely, that of the people nearest to him. Now, I consider that to be a totally selfish and ignorant act and, for that reason, would make it clear that they were no longer welcome in my home.

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: Emma B
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 02:31 PM

'when the music started to turn political this lady and her friend got up' - quote from the original post

How this this metamorphosize into the perjorative
'those two old birds'?

Subject: RE: Political Fallout At House Concert
From: kendall
Date: 16 Sep 08 - 02:37 PM

My ex wife and I took a trip to St. Maartin, and among other things, we took a bus tour around the island. One of the stops was a nude beach. As we were walking down to the beach with our group, another group was coming up off the beach. One of the women in that group was raving about the nasty things she saw, and assuring everyone within earshot that she didn't engage in such behavior, and hated porn too! After they all cleared off, our driver said,. "I wonder what she expected to see on a nude beach"?