Why is this place so bitter?

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 04:12 PM

This is a trolling technique that's used fairly often. I'm not sure whether it's always intentional, but the pattern is well established and reliable.

Start a thread complaining about having been mistreated. It doesn't matter if you have been or not, if you provoke people enough with accusations, you will get a negative reaction. Make sure you don't provide specific examples of this "mistreatment." Generalizations are a lot more effective in provoking the general negative response you're looking for, and people might actually be able to explain specifics.

If you start off posting negative opinions anonymously, you'll be seen as wishing to be a member of the group primarily known for flaming.

There may have been a time when GUESTs weren't viewed with such suspicion. A handfull (or perhaps just a couple) of compulsive and very needy Mudcat addicts have changed that. It's the way things are here.

I have no problem with anonymous posts asking for or providing information. Opinions free from personalities are worthless graffiti. People who hide their identity in order to belittle others ARE gutless cowards(*). I'd like to associate them with their opinions if I ever met them in person. Flamers may not be anywhere near as anonymous as they think they are, but I doubt I'll be running into them.

(*) I fully realize that some, maybe most, gutless cowards are not capable of being otherwise. They aren't capable of seeing their abuse of others as somehow wrong. They may say they don't care, but they keep coming back here. Why? Probably because they can't help it.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,the rules committee
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 04:18 PM

Anyone who starts a thread about him/herself and gets a total of three or more posts from any of the following Mudcatters is to be considered a member of the Inner Clique. Posts about one's self do not count (e.g. Kendall posting in a Kendall thread).

1) Catspaw49 2) WYSIWYG 3) Max 4) Joe Offer 5) Pene Azul 6) kat/katlaughing 7) Big Mick 8) Rick Fielding 9) Kendall 10) Pene Azul 11) Bert 12) Marymac

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 04:21 PM

The fact that almost any controversial point of view now has to be stated anonymously

Oh yeah, that's a good one.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 04:22 PM

Guest, former member. I assume by the 2 tier system, you mean the introduction of the Guest tag. I believe this move was a very good move as it preveted the impersonation of members - an issue that would not even have cropped up if the open (as opposed to membership) posting had not been abused.

Guest, Payback... Max recently said "I keep hearing the members-only recommendation, but am not comfortable with that." ...

It has also been interesting to note that Max has acknowledged "The fact that long-time core members, who seem to have the most to offer us, are visiting less often" and that it bothers him. It is perhaps even more interesting to me that Max is planning on a filtering system to address some problems (not the approach I had tried to argue for but something that should have a similar effect).

It really does seem to me that Max is actually recognising problems and even though I doubted him (and worse) is probably trying to do things to try to help while the 1%Ers would just have it "all is OK anyone who says otherwise is bitter, drunk, mad or whatever" - the last thing they are capable of doing is anyalysing problems, facing up to the fact that they at times can contribute towards problems or looking to help come up with solutions (although they can give a rapturous "great Max" when a change is made)...

Jon (who is off to the pub now, hopefully to play some music)

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Devilmaster
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 04:24 PM

COOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm in!!!! I'm in!!!!!!!!

Check my 'Auto Racing' thread! I started it about my love of auto racing, and have responses from Kendall, Spaw, and Joe Offer!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've been enabled!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So....ummm..... is there more to it than this??? do I get a button? T-shirt? Free movies at the porno store???

Steve




PS, Joe fax me the papers and i'll sign. When's the big swearing in ceremony????

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 04:48 PM

Devilmaster & Kendall:- What you obviously both need is a blue cliquey.*BG*
Nils illegitimi carborundum....Giok

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 06:00 PM

I know this saying is from central Europe but that's all I know about it. "An insult is like a cup of poison; anyone can hand it to you but only you can drink it" If anybody can identify it I would appreciate it.

And that's all I have to say about this thread.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 06:29 PM

Kendell: I checked the clique list. Sorry, you're not on it.

DougR

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 07:29 PM

Frankly, I'm glad I'm not part of the inner circle - that way (as far as I know) people only attack what I've said, not my general existance ;)

One thing that people haven't mentioned yet is that it is just possible that some of us LIKE to respond to flamers/trolls every once in a while (or all the time for some members).

The F/Ts aren't really getting our ire up - their just throwing the first punch on a fight. I am rarely upset when I respond to a post I think is stupid or insensitive. I do it because I want to, though I try to avoid doing it very often. I'd rather spend my time reading the cool threads and occasionally posting there.

F/Ts can't really hurt the Mudcat - like Guest-payback said above, stupid comments isn't going to make me visit here any less. I know the secret - I only go into the threads like this one when I feel like it. - Other times I just staaaaaay away!

pax yall

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,jaze
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 08:49 PM

Well shit. Now I'm depressed!

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 09:51 PM

Anyone who starts a thread about him/herself and gets a total of three or more posts from any of the following Mudcatters is to be considered a member of the Inner Clique- Since this is from the Rules Committee, it must be true...

So: I am so sad and lonely and all alone. I don't have music more than about three times a week. Old age is staring me in the face- I don't dare turn my back, or it might jump me. All I have is this little window to the world: Mudcat. And if I'm not in its Inner Clique, I will have lost that too.

So, may I please have my three posts from the above mentioned Mudcatters?

LOL

Ebbie

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 10:00 PM

Ebbie and jaze......As a charter member of the Inner Clank, I am free and willing to grant you both immediate and complete membership with all the honors and privileges that come with it. Congratulations!!!

Now I can't help but notice that the "Rules Committee" puts down some interesting guidelines and under those guidelines, virtually all Guests are members of the Inner Clank too!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Rolfyboy6
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 10:14 PM

Gosh, I've never been a member of an inner clique. When I got into folk and blues I was considered weird and an outcast in my little town in the Mississippi Valley. And when I moved to California and got involved with bluegrass and blues I was weird.

My seven year old daughter who listens to radio and loves the (she thinks) "Pixie Dicks", tells me I'm weird and my Son House, Tony Rice, and B.B. King records are weird.

So I really NEED to be a member of the INNER CLIQUE. Uh, if you're into 'marginalized' music they won't play on the radio can you have an inner clique? Maybe those on the approved list can reassure me.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 10:31 PM

Blanket assurances, approvals, and permissions hereby made in good faith.

~S~

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 10:31 PM

Alice, take some advice from an old soul. Next time you meet a guy who looks interesting to you, before you get involved, check the following.
1. Watch how he treats his mother. (He will treat you the same in time.
2. Ditto waitresses.
3. And most important, wtch how he feels about cats. I dont mean simply not liking them, I mean if he hates cats, he is quite apt to be a controller. Control freaks hate cats because they cant dominate them. Many men dont like cats, but, watch out for the one who will harm them. He will control you too.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 10:35 PM

And, ladies, dont ever think you are going to change a man. That's probably the biggest mistake you can make. And, men, dont get the idea that your new lady is always going to be trim and firm. Time and gravity are going to make you wish you were near sighted!

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jan 02 - 11:58 PM

Thank you Kendall, for those insightful suggestions. They ain't gonna get you into the inner-clique though. *G* DougR

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 12:16 AM

Ummm... I think that Kendall is in the Inner Clank, I mean, Clique. I saw the surveilance photos from the NSA and I could swear he was in them.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 12:36 AM

CLANK I am so happy.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Nerd
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 02:39 AM

Wow, I go away for the weekend and look what happens to this thread! First of all, did you ever consider that I might have moved to Philadelphia BECAUSE I was smart?

Or is that too farfetched? Yeah, I thought so :-)

Anyway, for the record, valued GUESTS

Maybe a month or so ago I went from being a guest to being a member and I have found no difference in the way I am treated. However, even when I was a guest I always attached some name to myself--I didn't settle on Nerd until a few weeks in. As to there being an "inner clique," don't you sort of expect that in any group there will be clusters of friends? The only thing that makes one clique "central" and another clique "peripheral" is PERCEPTION. When I was in high school (which is the last time I had to think about this crap) I was in a kind of nerdy clique rather than a popular clique. Eventually I decided that we WERE the "inner clique" as far as I was concerned.

Maybe people who worry about who the "inner clique" is are just insecure because they have no friends of their own to hang out with. In that case, go make friends. But it seems painfully counterproductive to complain about not having friends when you won't identify yourselves. To become part of any community you have to let others see and hear and, yes, judge you. If you hide behind the mask of complete anonymity you can never make a friend or be a friend; at best you can be a non-hostile stranger.

So my advice (jeez, when did I get so damn full of advice?) choose a name, enter the forum, be polite. Try to learn from threads, and contribute when you think others can learn from you. Be funny and friendly if you can.

Maybe you'll make it into the "inner clique" yourself. If not, you'll probably find you're having too much fun to care!

And JJ, all evidence to the contrary, this isn't a bitter place! Honest!

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 04:26 AM

I've posted for advice during vunerable times, seeing this place as being full of experienced human people who have to be fairly grounded or cool because they like folk music!
I was surprised at some of the ill-intentioned bitter posts. There were more insightful empathic ones, but the hurtful ones...I just remember them more. Also surprised that some experienced folks don't always follow a safe convention to avoid confilct: Just speak honestly of personal experience -- use "I" instead of "you". But there was a time when I didn't know the advantages of this, and still remind myself.
I don't want the answer to be "just read and post music threads". That may be the answer...probably doesn't have to be...guess it depends on where I am that day.
Something ordinary but interesting happened to me the other day. I went to see a public event at the city auditorium and my friend noted that "people are basically good". The whole event was full of basically good, friendly people -- it had to be, because it acutally happened smoothly and enjoyably. Anyway, it was a good reminder for me that the real world is just as valid as the printed electronic forum world. It's just the limitedness but the permanence of the written word has a great impact for me.
Yeah, I may shrug it all off soon. Like being a little vulnerable though.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 06:01 AM

Hey guys! why don't y'all start a fraternity/sorority? You could call yourselves Mu Gamma, and have a Fraternity ring an' all. That there clique is a Frenchy word, and it aint got the same classical ring as them thar Greek letters. I mean you wouldn't want French letters on your ring now would ya?
Please don't reply to this post, unless it's to denigrate it. I got a paranoia to feed y' know.;-[)> {Smile with beard and moustache}
Happy Sunday.....Giok

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,Former member
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 07:59 AM

WYSIWYG said:

"A "flamewar" and other related "wrongs" were referenced and described above by an anonymous guest. A number of people with a different "take" on all of those events decided, at the time and since, not to post about it, but to move on. So I hope people will keep in mind that a one-sided story is just that-- one-sided, and a story."

Ah, so there is the Official Mudcat Version of events. Which the people involved in the Bruce Olson witch hunt don't wish to discuss then, WYSIWYG?

Yeah, this place is kinda like adolescent boys...in Lord of the Flies.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 09:02 AM

What we need now is a pig's head on a stick. Perhaps Spaw can spare one from his sausage making exploits. Or maybe you know someone who has one that they're not using.
Giok

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 09:07 AM

I know a lot of people with heads that they dont use.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: harpgirl
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 09:29 AM

...sorry folks, but catspaw is wrong again! You can't be in the inner clique unless you have sent the treasurer (that's me) your annual $50 dues. February 29th is the cutoff date so hurry up with he money!!!

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Alice
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 10:26 AM

Hi, Kendall, great advice, but unfortunately, that guy had everyone around him that I met, including his parents, talking him up to me like he was great, and I fell for it. I was naive for my age and as a poet, he had a little fan club around him. He liked cats. I didn't know at the time that:

- It takes at least a year of observing someone's character and behavior to know them well enough to marry. (If it works out in less time, you're just lucky.)
- Some people are very good con artists.
- When you are grieving, you are not in a state to be making major life decisions.

We can all look back and say, "I wish I had known then what I know now". But then again, we learned what we know now from experience.

End of thread creep, back to the topic. I rarely read threads that have flame/troll discussions, so I've missed out on most of the anonymous Guest controversy. I do remember a time when Mudcat didn't seem to have any flaming going on, but Mudcat was young and naive then (1997-98). The only complaints I remember then were regarding threads about rock or pop music instead of folk or blues.

Alice

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Hawker
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 10:30 AM

If you ask a question, you get an answer, but just like in life, you get ther person whos answering's opinion too, some people here, like in life are sensitive to things they hold dear, and that is differennt in each person, when you have been here a while, you get to know people's sensitivities and I have seen people try to wind certain people up, knowing their question wil illicit a response. I try to steer clear of too much confrontation, others enjoy a good heated discussion, and, like in life, some go in with a knife and can be quite scathing..... Human Nature I think, be yourself, be happy, and forgiving is my attitude to the responses I get, there is always a reason for a persons behaviour and we shouldn't judge them too harshly (well, most of them!!!) Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST,From Venus
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 10:36 AM

Hi Alice,

Your recollections of the young (but hardly what I would call naive) Mudcat are much the same as mine, it seems.

One of the ways one keeps discussion forums on-topic is by pointing out posts which are off-topic. Self-policing like that has to happen in any public forum to keep it free from becoming what Mudcat has become today, which is much less about music than it was in 97/98.

Now, the folks who post most often here seem to clearly prefer things the way they are now, to the way they were then. Which tells me they come here to be with a community of musicians and music lovers, not to discuss music per se. The music discussions get more and more marginalized with time, it seems to me. And yes, I'd have to agree the History of Irish Music thread is an example of what happens when some folks try and seriously discuss the music. The wise-crackers and malcontents seem to come out of the woodwork and get very aggressive.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 10:37 AM

I was just thinking of Kendall's earlier bit of wisdom and applied it to my music.

If I was asked how I found the music in N Wales (at least over the last 4 yrs), I would have said there's hardly any players left I enjoy playing with - most of the good ones either left or don't go out anymore, the events that I used to enjoy have mostly been taken over by people who have it that nothing matters as long as it's "fun" and that a complainer like me over slipping standards and no attempt to improve musically were just putting everbody down to sound clever...

By Kendall's logic, I should have found the same in Norfolk but instead, I found a session where the standard is so high that some of the stuff is of recording quality, a place where people believe playing the music for the music is the goal and perhaps most notably a place where I, rather than being the so called clever sod feels like a beginner who is still trying to learn his skills. And I'm loving ever minute of it.

Often within communities, changes happen - from any individuals perspective, for better or for worse - and at times people either have to adapt or move on. This is just part of life, something that will never change but sometimes one can find better elsewhere, sometimes there is understanding and people on all sides bend a little, sometimes people can't move for whatever reason...

So where does Mudcat fit into all this? Mudcat is a place that was built on music and largely on the efforts of people that we rarely see these days. What seems to have happened is that a community side developed and a certain group wanted to expand on that, perhaps at times caring more about their perceived community than its original foundations - I guess it could be likened to building a new housing estate in an old village and a division between the new and the old occuring.

I would argue that the community side within Mudcat is a healthy feature, one that opens amazing doors to people as well as perhaps making the site "accessible" to a greater number of people. I would also argue that the old values are important here if this site is to retain any focus.

It seems to me that Max is working on tech ways to make it easier for the 2 sides (and those inbetween) to find (and exclude) what they want here and I applaud him for that. To be honest I feel bad about some things I said - wish I could have PMd him and KNOWN how far he was thinking - I'd never have taken the line I had if I did.

There does however remain one problem IMO that all the tech ability in the world can not solve and that is people. Feelings of things like "cliques" do exist here - perhaps with reason - I'd lay odds that if I ran a poll on the top 10 members, the results would be pretty consistent, feelings of guests (and I know some are only trolling/flaming) being mistreated do exist...

Mudcat is overall a friendly place but that does not mean it couldn't be better and that issues don't exist. They real question to me is "Can the 'core' members recognise this and try to help become part of a bigger and greater Mudcat than before or are they going to continue to argue that everything in the garden is rosey?"

Jon

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Alice
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 11:15 AM

I described early Mudcat as more naive, I think, because I was reminded of myself in my 20's, when I didn't know much about human nature. Since I was an honest and nice person, I though everyone I met was honest and nice, too.

Although people who came to the Mudcat forum in the beginning were not necessarily naive in the "real world", the cyber world of the internet was evolving. The communication was similar to what you expect when people meet face to face. Some of us had been online since early BBS (I recall only meeting school teachers looking for info when I first went online in about 1989). The internet has changed, more people online all the time, and communication styles have developed that are different than what we do in face to face meetings.

The analogy to changing sessions is interesting, Jon. I like the session we have in my town, being friendly and open, but the music is well played and fun at the same time. People come for the music, not to party. There is a more strict session I know of in another town that almost died because the leader had so many taboos and controls on what and how music was to be played. I hope this forum finds a good balance between information and fun, and moves toward a more courteous attitude.

Alice

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 01:16 PM

A GUEST posted this above:

"I've posted for advice during vunerable times, seeing this place as being full of experienced human people who have to be fairly grounded or cool because they like folk music! I was surprised at some of the ill-intentioned bitter posts."

>>I assume the advice you were looking for was for your personal life and not along the lines as what kind of guitar should you buy. If you were looking here for personal advice, you might want to remember that the majority of us here are not therapists, life counsellors or doctors. While you may get good advice for any question you have, you're just as likely to get bad advice and you're almost guarenteed to get flippant, off-the-cuff advice. The Mudcat is NOT a therapy group!

We do not function as an AA group or as your clergy or anything else other than a group of people who tend to be free with opinions (because that's kind of what posting here on a regular basis comes down to - we share information as well, but opinions really do rule the day).

Please don't use the Mudcat as a surrogate for real help - you'll be dissapponted. Go the TRAINED PROFESSIONALS for anything serious about your life. And, if you still choose to use us - don't blame us, for Goddess's sake!

Consider what your paying for the advice - you're lucky if you get what you paid for.

I have mentioned in other threads that I have Asperger's Syndrome. I did not mention it in order to solicit help or advice, just to explain better who I am (that's kind of a trait of many members here - we WANT everyone to get to know us) And oddly enough, just mentioning it got me a private message from someone here who has a spouse with A.S. - that person offered to converse with me if I ever needed it. THAT is part of what make the Mudcat a great place to me.

pax yall

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 02:00 PM

Just curious, Jon, if you'd be willing to point out the 10 regulars whom you characterise as saying things are all rosy, esp. in the most recent past? Not looking to wind you or anyone else up, but I just don't recall seeing a lot of posts of that nature.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Jeri
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 02:11 PM

I'd never describe this place as "bitter." I disagreed with the use of that word to describe the place back in, oh, maybe it was '99, and I disagree today. I'm not bitter, nearly all of the folks I know personally aren't bitter, and I don't see much bitterness in the posts I DO read.

I think some folks seem to have a hair trigger, and some folks post out of anger without considering or possibly caring about the impact of their words on not only the target, but all who read their message. These incidents bother me, but I'm bothered by individual posts by indiviual people.

Others are "literal thinkers." They see what's basically irony, and think the poster is flaming someone. They probably don't ask or try to understand, they just assume. This has been responsible for at least a few flame wars around here. To take this to an extreme, someone who's acting offended after seeming to have taken an ironic statement literally may also be being ironic. If I'm not sure, I keep my mouth shut. Sometimes.

There are folks all over who'll just barge in somewhere without finding out what's going on first. When people take exception to their behavior, they get their shorts in a bunch because the group won't adapt to their way of doing things. That's going to happen, but it doesn't make any sense to react to their anger with more anger. At the end of the day, the group the barger is pissed off at will not have changed to meet their demands. The only unknown is how many of the group members will allow the barger to bunch up their shorts for them.

There was a time when it seemed folks were more concerned, not with their rights to say whateverthehell they wanted, but whether their thoughts were appropriate here. Maybe it just seems that way to me. I tend to write long, angry posts, and then usually hit the back button before I submit them. I think others probably also don't say everything they'd like, but a few of those angry posts DO escape. We've got more folks here now, so probably we probably have a greater number of escaped flames.

Oh, and there is no "us" and "them" within Mudcat. Every single person who posts here determines the overall feel of the place. People don't spend time in the threads about Mudcat unless they want to be a part of the "community." They wouldn't troll unless they needed recognition from other Mudcatters. It's just a shame that some of them crave abuse. It's more of a shame that some of us can occasionally let ourselves be provoked into abusing them.

Oh well, time to climb down from this horse and go practice guitar. Now where'd I put that ladder...

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 03:27 PM

kat, "I said I'd lay odds if I run a poll", perhaps I'm wrong - I don't think I'm going to try one to find out whos names really came up most often.

Everything in the garden is rosey, is my interpretation over a situation whereby when anyone questions anything here such as this thread, the result is so many "you've got a problem" type answers.

Jon

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 04:20 PM

Well Jon, I don't think everything is rosy, but I do think being positive in the things I can do is the best approach. I think some of us address what we think needs improvement by just seeing to the parts we can see to ourselves, not by laying out what someone else ought to fix.

Maybe it has to do with an innate trust I have that other people are doing that too, many of them, much of the time-- such as Max, making improvements here once he sees the need clearly from his own viewpoint and once a smart enough idea occurs to him.

It reminds me of a program I designed, developed, and ran in a school system. There were some serious wrongs that needed to be addressed, and many of them were longstanding issues arising from societal blind spots. After soliciting everyone's sense of what was needed, it took awhile before I came up with something. But the thing I came up with integrated all of the input, much of it from people who could not tolerate talking to one another but who had laid out their concerns for me as a neutral person. The progam addressed ALL of the issues, and the root causes, in such a fashion that it actually made a difference to the people incvolved and to the system itself.

Yes, something "ought" to have been done sooner about each and every sub-issue, small problem, and individual wrong that as being done... but it just so happened that it was not possible, until it became possible, to do anything within the actual situation involved.

Sometimes you have to be close enough to the situation to know why this or that idea is simply not workable in combination with all the other factors that exist. So you have a choice then-- do as much as one can do with what is already possible, trusting that more will become possible.... or decide that it is NOT workable as it is, and even if it might get better, leave because it is not presently tenable and something else is more effective.

I choose to trust that Max's innate curiosity and drive to create will lead him to keep tinkering away at Mudcat such that it continues to improve. But I find myself less and less patient with people who bail out (not you Jon), while the process of responding to their concerns is occurring, because they do not have the willingness to see that it IS occurring. It is very frustrating to work at designing a solution only to find that by the time you can put it into practice, many of the people you were trying to respond to have bailed out! My music ministry discussion went that way. I lost a lot of hours trying to structure into it what people said they wanted, even tho I didn't want it myself. They had moved on. Oh well. Live and learn.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 04:27 PM

Thanks, Jon, I get your point, just wondered who and what was said,as I pointed out, I haven't seen too many, that I can think of. I think there are a lot of us who just don't say anything, anymore, either way. It seems a never-ending subject, positive or not.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: heric
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 04:46 PM

Jeri is so cool. What you cliquers should do is collect a bunch of her posts from various threads of this nature, and assemble them into a permathread. Then whenever someone starts a why does Mudcat suck so bad thread, just refer them to the permathread. This is a good idea. (So is the pig's head on a stick, thing, tough.)

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: mmm1a
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 05:24 PM

Nerd I hope you stick around, sounds like you are someone who could add positive things to mudcat. As for this place being bitter ok sometimes I guess but I don't tend to dwell on it,. I come here for information and to just hang out sometimes. I usually ignore irratating comments. Actually I only had one derected at me and that was a long while back and I chose to ignore it. I have learned to much here to let annoying posts keep me away mmm

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Alice
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 09:20 PM

Guest JJ, in re-reading your initial message starting this thread, my attention was brought to the line "a bit of love and friendship would help here". Actually, I have seen alot of love and friendship expressed here, more than any other forum or e-list on the internet that I have experienced. When Bill Sables came over from England and made a road trip with Allan C. all over the US and into Canada, just to meet Mudcat forum users, play music together, and share some friendship and good will, I was overwhelmed that they traveled all the way to Montana just to meet me. I may never meet alison in Australia, but I feel like I know her in a very friendly way, that I can trade stories of our kids, etc. There are people who use the Mudcat site whom I may never meet in person, but they have sent me tapes, lyrics, photos, support, ... all out of generosity and the spirit of friendship. The group of people here has been inclusive, for the most part, and many have formed long distance friendships that are like having pen pals who write to you almost every day. Bitter? I think not.

Alice

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 10:19 PM

"a bit of love and friendship would help here"

Alice, beyond that - everyone should check out the Secret Santa threads - that had to have been one of Mudcat's finest hours! 7 mian threads and at least 3 other sub threads also means that it really involved those who took part. Also, you mention alison in Australia. I'll probably never meet her either, but I had the honor of being her Secret Santa and soon afterwards there was a thread about bush fires in the Syney area. I probably wouldn't have checked the thread out, but I now had a personal connection with alison.

I love the fact that I regularly enter conversations with people in Australia, Iceland, Ireland and everywhere else.

The Mudcat is a wonderful (albeit imperfect) place!

pax yall

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 10:45 PM

Hey, Nerd: I jus watched one of my favorite movies, Sullivan's Travels, and your comment about Philadelphia reminded me of a great line in the movie. When the film Director was challenged because his last movie bombed in Pittsburgh. He said something like, "What do they know?If they knew anything, they wouldn't be living in Pittsburgh." I got a big laugh out of the line, being a Pittsburgh Pirate fan for many years. I thought the old line was that as a booby prize, you got a one way ticket to Philadpelhia? (Thread creep, I know...)
Jerry

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Nerd
Date: 27 Jan 02 - 10:59 PM

mmm: Thanks, I think I will hang out a while!

Jerry:

Yeah, Philly's not the greatest, but I work in Camden, NJ! As I point out to my wife, you have to pay a $3.00 toll on any of the bridges from Camden to Philly, but the Philly-Camden direction is free. That's 'cause no one would pay three bucks to get to Camden!

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 12:25 AM

ha ha!

Local joke ahead (hell, it's after midnight - no one's around):

We have a town east of Orlando called Bithlo - it is renowned in the area for auto salvage yards, crane rental yards and the local dragstrip/circle track. Just east of Bithlo is the town of Christmas - nice little place with a historical fort, a post office and a bunch of nice, quiet retirees. In order to get to Christmas from Orlando, one must pass through Bithlo. There's a bumper sticker that's popular around here that says "Bithlo, the nightmare before Christmas" pax yall

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 12:40 AM

Sheesh, Blackcatter, you ought to put that story AND one of those bumper stickers in the auction! I'd love to have one...no one here would have a clue!*bg*

Alice, well-said.

kat

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Rolfyboy6
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 01:01 AM

Yes Please make this a permathread so we can have this as boiler plate and not use anymore space on this stuff.

Golly, I'm just consumed with angst and question my self identity now that I've sullied myself with the Mudcat. I'll have to go read Albert Camus and Sartre to understand the meaning of all this.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 01:43 AM

I don't like being in debt, harpgirl. I have some money left from an old Monopoly game- will that do? Doesn't look any stranger than our new bills and I can spare a little more than $50.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: RichM
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 04:46 AM

Too much salt. Needs some sugar...

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 06:56 AM

If we never aired our views here which are critical of this forum, how would Max ever know why people are dissatisfied, and leaving the forum? How would he know that people wanted change, if we didn't have these threads?

Max recently posted that he too was concerned with the BS driving people away who come here to discuss music. He also hinted that he is working on installing a filter to deal with it. I'm sure that threatens a good number of people here who spend most or all of their time here in the BS threads. So be it. The sign over the door does still say Mudcat is for the discussion of music, after all. Since Max hasn't changed that sign, maybe you BSers need to start looking for alternative housing, and not the other way round.

Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter?
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Jan 02 - 07:25 AM

Nope.....Not what Max said at all. Max rightly believes that there is room for all and is trying to come up with ways ( the filtering system ) which will keep things hopefully happier.

Spaw