Getaway 2010 Program Planning

Subject: RE: Getaway 2010 Program Planning
From: gene-peace
Date: 10 Oct 10 - 11:48 PM

Amos

Amen

An Elf

Subject: RE: Getaway 2010 Program Planning
From: lisa null
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 12:13 AM

Ah, with regard to Linda's comment on the need for singers ballads to abridge their basic story line-- I suppose telling stories is what characterizes a ballad as opposed to other genres but the incremental repitions that bore her can also be very important.


They give the songs a ritualistic quality-- for me part of the challenge is drawing the audience into a shared mystery, at least with some of the old ballads where there is lots of repetition. Many of us have heard the stories many times, but the very fact we want to hear them again and again, often in multiple versions, suggest that a lot of us are into the ballads as community ritual. WIlla Muir thinks of songs like Lord Randal, for instance, as rehearsals for death. You go through the motions of leaving your mother this, your father that. In The Border Widow, the widow sews a shroud, carries the body, buried that body, mourns the body. I think she had a point.

These are complex decisions for a singer to make, and I would not expect all folk enthusiasts to make a beeline for the ballad room. But for those of us who love them, it would be hard to leave.

Subject: RE: Getaway 2010 Program Planning
From: gene-peace
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 04:54 AM

Regards my friend Lisa's post & Linda's befor her etc.

And, with all due respect Lisa, Et Al:

We walk a perilous path when we choose to use terms beginning in the context of "Complex Decisions" and by 'leaps of faith" (or whatever), arriving at (like Topsy) into full blown "ideaisms" as REHEARSALS FOR DEATH & terminology such as: RITUALISTIC QUALITIES. :-)

We are in fact addressing "Ballads" aren't we?

I for example, would suggest, that a very large percentage of the the "Pop" songs of the 50s and 60s, are "in fact" Ballads in a "contracted" format.... certainly making them "no less" ballads, right?

Terms like "ritualistic" immediately raise in my psyche terms like traditionalistic and terms like "fundamentalistic' and can easily lead to terms like Fascistic, etc.

But I digress,

If you Guys & Gals are suggesting a "VERY SERIOUS" ballad workshop, as opposed to or in addition to the already existing "realtime" peace cabin "living ballad experience", then quite seriously you MUST lobby for a FEATURED "minimal" Ballad workshop of no less then two hours, featuring a "Panel" of "Ballad Experts" for the first hour or so, followed by another hour for arguing and throwing rotten Tomatoes, and finally, another hour for cleaning up the mess.....!

OK, I suppose that if certain "balladeers" seriously feel the need for such a get-together, I would strongly suggest, that in-the- tradition, that they contact each other off-line, and get together during one of those few & far between hour long gaps (like Lunch) and meet in the beautiful fields & do it right! :-)

A Modest proposal, at best!

Looking forwrd to being lambasted
I remain-Sincerely & respectfully-

Gene-O-Elf

Subject: RE: Getaway 2010 Program Planning
From: Nancy King
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 11:12 AM

Gene-peace, I am not sure what you are "suggesting," if anything. Can you "clarify"?

Subject: RE: Getaway 2010 Program Planning
From: Amos
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 12:41 PM

I like that handle, Gene-peace! :D

A

Subject: RE: Getaway 2010 Program Planning
From: Sandrolin
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 06:09 PM

do you still have the dream..and you wake up in a start trying to figure where your 10th period class is....pooh did you leave your binder with your scheduled week some-where... egadz worse you forgot to get dressed and there you were in the corridor trying to find your class......

I think Gene-Peace is referring to the fun police zoning of a scheduled ballad room.. another sanctified spot to report to...and then the required committee to determine the definitions and boundaries of a legitimate ballad......
{lawd...o sweet Lucy .. your heart"s playful mesmerizing take on By the Time We Got to Woodstock would get you a sticky thicket of tomatoes}....

how about a room where people are blind folded and .........

Sandrolin
undercover elf

Subject: RE: Getaway 2010 Program Planning
From: Amos
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 07:11 PM

LOL!! Whoooeeee!! Bohemian Anarchy let loose upon the world!! Gotta love it.

MAkes me yearn for those green afternoons at Washington Square...


A

Subject: RE: Getaway 2010 Program Planning
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:16 PM

"...the fun police zoning of a scheduled ballad room.. another sanctified spot to report to...and then the required committee to determine the definitions and boundaries of a legitimate ballad......"

Well....no, that's not what was being suggested. Folks are just trying to accommodate ballads...

Do I detect a straw man being set up? And why do Gene-peace and Sandrolin write in such similar styles?

Subject: RE: Getaway 2010 Program Planning
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 12:56 PM

To me, a major highlight of the Old Songs Festival is an informal, unscheduled "guerilla ballad session". No stage. No mikes. No rules (except that the song should tell a story). Just a bunch of people sitting down to swap ballads, for as long as it takes. Thanks to April Grant, who dreamed up th idea.

Subject: RE: Getaway 2010 Program Planning
From: Sandrolin
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 02:28 PM

oooh Bill, under these lights , I can well understand your confusion....

and mea culpa ..if my comment was a mudcat prosodically wrong end of telescope *style*--Right-o Bill?-

uh huh; before I nest again to my fly (elf) on the wall status... i question...
why is not a 2011 Planning workshop part of the week-end itself...?--onsite-
why are the ideas entertained in a *protected* hidden format.?..
why is there no legitimate direct method for evaluation or reflection other than this?

Sandrolin -- who witnessed the magic this past week-end under the trees, on the pier, greeting the sun, in a dark cabin with glow in the dark bracelets, on the cuff, under the radar, ......
prob. a lot different than yourn aye Bill?

Subject: RE: Getaway 2010 Program Planning
From: Nancy King
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 03:22 PM

A "planning workshop" for the following year is, I suppose, possible, but would take up time that otherwise could be used for singing and song-swapping. We always have many more ideas than we can fit into the time available.

Ideas are not "entertained in a *protected* hidden format." Anyone is welcome to suggest an idea at any time, and many do, via PM, email, or face-to-face communication with members of the program committee (who are identified in Mudcat threads and in the FSGW Newsletter).

It is not true that "there is no legitimate direct method for evaluation or reflection other than this." Anyone is welcome to contribute comments at any time, via Mudcat threads, PM, email, or in person. In fact, constructive suggestions (such as the proposal for an ongoing ballad room) are welcome and encouraged. Snide, snarky and innacurate statements are not particularly welcome. If you have a beef, please tell us clearly what it is. If you insist on staying in the shadows, we have no way of knowing what you want.

Nancy King,
Chair, Program Committee

Subject: RE: Getaway 2010 Program Planning
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 04:00 PM

As one of the senior 'Catters (along with Jeri and Joe) at The Getaway, I can assure all that planning is far from "protected-hidden". I can point out any number of threads over the years in which the opinions of folkies and Mudcatters was sought and acted on by this committee. But I would point out one thing. This is an FSGW event. It is sponsored, planned and owned by them. FSGW is a vernerable and much respected organization, and that is because it's members match that same description ("venerable" might get me in trouble, but you get the drift). Nancy, as well as all of the FSGW volunteers (read that word twice,please) give up great amounts of their precious time out of love for this music and the people that perform it. The democracy of the event comes from their seeking input, but at some point someone has to make the decisions. One need only focus on how they felt leaving that blessed event to know how successful they are. Mudcatters from around the world have become an integral and important part OF the event, but it is the dues paying members and activist volunteers of FSGW that make it happen and give us the chance to come together as we do.

Want more say? Step right up here, sign on the dotted line, pay the dues, volunteer to spend large quantities of your precious personal time, and have at it.

Lest anyone mistake my tone, it is not pejoratively aimed at Sandrolin/gene-peace who are wonderful persons. And I take gene's point, even if I am not quite sure it is appropriately on the mark. But it is very important for Mudcatters to understand that the event is something we latched onto. We have contributed mightily, but the event organizers have devoted large amounts of their adult folk lives to this thing. I, for one, am in their debt.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Getaway 2010 Program Planning
From: MMario
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 04:21 PM

What mick said.

Subject: RE: Getaway 2010 Program Planning
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 06:41 PM

"...why is not a 2011 Planning workshop part of the week-end itself...?--onsite-

Umm..because we're too busy having fun? *grin*

This year was my 32nd consecutive Getaway, and I have been on the committee several times and was co-chairman once. Input on what to do and how to manage everything from workshop schedules to inviting guests to cleaning up IS discussed all year long, though a bit more intensely at certain times.
One of the newer concerns IS how to incorporate all the new folks who, as Mick said, have discovered us thru Mudcat. THAT is kind of a nice problem to have!
Since we don't know from year to year how many will be able to come from far away places, we have had to look at newish issues....like bunk beds! We ain't as young as we used to be, and not everyone can manage an upper bunk....and about 40%? ARE upper bunks, which means that the absolute camp limit of 200 beds 'might' mean limiting registrations some year....and we'll have to have a system if that happens.

So...Sandrolin...and anyone else who appreciated the 'magic' ...*smile*... feel free to toss out suggestions, but it might be best if it was done directly to the committee members, rather than a debate on Mudcat...(remember, there are locals who help with this who seldom or never read Mudcat)

Subject: RE: Getaway 2010 Program Planning
From: gene-peace
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 09:40 PM

10/13/2010

In response to Ms King's post of 10/11 - 11:12AM as follows:

From: Ms King- "Gene-Peace, I am not sure what you are "suggesting," if anything. Can you "clarify"?

(Nancy, I'm sure we've met at various times over these many years of both of our involvements with the FSGW, I just can't put a face on it)

Response from Gene-Peace":
(Sorry for the short delay in getting back to you, I only just became aware that you requested a clarification of my 10/11 post- mea culpa)

Dear Ms King & with all due respect, my post of 10/11 in response to Lisa Null's (an old friend) and also to more then just a few other posts before hers; I must admit to having been a`little "tongue-in-cheek" in my post as a way to try to add some levity to what seemed to me to be becoming an anarchical free-for-all. Again, mea culpa, for not understanding the "true nature" of this thread, where subtlety and levity apparently have no place when it comes to addressing the "important" issues".

So in the interest of clarity as follows:

After my introductory remarks & comments and beginning after my words "but I digress", follows a Translation/Summation-

I was/am herein OFFICIALLY proposing that there be scheduled for the 2011 FSGW getaway, a (total) three hour Panel Discussion/Seminar (with a pre-seminar meeting on late Thursday (yes, I'm proposing an additional day be added to the getaway)or on Miday Friday for a Panelist orientation.
That the actual seminar/discussion be a three hour event, hour one a panel presentation debate composed of an equal amount of "pro" and "anti" panelist positions regarding the "establishment of a "permanent" Ballad/workshop, 2nd hour (which I referred to as "Tomatoe" throwing, dedicated to audience participation and questions directed at "specific" panelists"!, 3rd Hour (which I referred to as "cleanup" dedicated to group "problem solving" and a combined written recommendation to the various "anonymous" and "protected" and otherwise "veiled" committes, who will judge and debate pursuant to their final say, to be enacted or not enected in the following year 2012.

It's decidedly premature at this point for anyone to arbitrarily designate the "founding" of a permanent "Ballad" time/location, without full and all-inclusive group input and debate.
(That's the entire translation/clarification), oops, except for the following:

Kindly note my ending salutation in my original "levity" post of 10/11--
"A Modest Proposal",

Given a website full of Folkmusic experts, ethnomusicoligists from Scotland, Ireland Wales, England, USA, etc. ad-Nauseum, I'm struck dumb by no comments whatever regarding Jonathan Swift's, "Modest Proposal"- see Google: www.cummingsstudyguides.netModProposal.html

Pursuant to the above, Ms King, would you be most kind to respond to me by direct e-mail only- [e-mail] or by phone [phone]. Alternatively, why don't you establish a new thread entitled - Pros & Cons of "Establishing" a permanent, multi-hour, BALLAD FSGW "presentational", SERIOUS POSTS ONLY!

Sincerely & respectfully submitted
Gene Rosenthal, Pres.
Adelphi Records & Films, Inc.
FSGW pre-founder/Founder 1961-64

PS- I found your request for clarification, including the term "if any" unnnecessarily "snide", but I forgive you.
GR



A

Subject: RE: Getaway 2010 Program Planning
From: lisa null
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 11:21 PM

Oh I love the idea of a permanent, multi-hour, BALLAD room, with or without all the nauseating trimmings gene-peace suggested. On the other hand, the guerilla ballad session of Old Songs has much to recommend it too. A place or space where anyone with a sung story is welcome-- maybe with a campfire where us old crones can huddle together,

Subject: RE: Getaway 2010 Program Planning
From: Sandrolin
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 01:52 AM

Nancy

Hello. The only way I can think of responding to your open message to me is by an open message back to you and to the group.

First; I should bring to your attention the fact that for several years now I have become an acknowledged icon on more than just a few serious and diverse music sites; my free-form poetic postings on these sites have not only become accepted but this/my style has become expected to add completion and otherwise ward off the liklihood of the site becoming cold and encyclopedic. I apologize for assuming that my established poetic format doesn't work on this apparently very more serious site. It was decidedly not my intention to come across as snide or snarky.

So let's begin again in the necessarily formal way that this site apparently requires,

My name is Sandra Koppel. I am an Education Specialist. My responsibilities and interests largely involve organizing events, conferences and workshops. Before I moved to the east coast I worked for 30 years for the Calif. Dept. of Education in the capacity of team leader organizing conferences and retreat events.

I've tried to keep my joy of music and my music postings very separate from my professional world.

So follows is my comments in my professional mode:
:
Why can there not be a formalized method for evaluation, planning and reflection solicited and built into the last day of the Getaway? (Or by some other formalized process)

You (Nancy) answered as follows- "... it would be time consuming."

My response is as follows:
My own experience with formalized reflection and evaluation of events has NOT proven to be time consuming. We used a simple multiple choice form and comment section that was distributed before the participants left. Our team met soon after in a short meeting to review the results of these feedback forms. Generally: they gave us focus and direction and kept us from over-biasing in favor of old & stale ideas. The small amount of time invested was well rewarded with impressive suggestions, perspectives and positive end results

My third question was in reference to where and how the planning ideas were generated.
I suggested that planning conversations were apparently limited to a very few persons comprising of a select group.

You responded that it was NOT true that there is no legitimate direct method of evaluation.
You mentioned that the Mudcat site, PMs, e-mail communication directly to committee members was the "understood" method.

Again with my own experience in mind:
Sandra's response: Though in some situations we dreaded it:-) , we (organizers) wore BIG red badges so that the participants clearly could spot us, confront us right there on site to make comments and ask important questions and give us input.
In the case of Getaway 2010 I am sorry to admit that I do not know who the committee members are/were.
It was a tremendously great time ..with top rate performers and workshops and I would have liked the opportunity to face to face make my congratulations if only I could have identified you with a big red badge.

At any rate -- I hate to do this horn tooting and over reliance on my academic credentials but with my 30 years of logistics and problem solving for events experiences I can't help but feel like jumping in with some proposals and suggestions with which I truly believe could be positive and useful to the over-all organization.

Respectfully
Sandra Koppel    [e-mail] (I prefer responses to my e-mail address)
(aka Sandrolin, the other elf in the Peace Cabin).

PS-Oh and Bill I would love to discuss some possibly good ideas and suggestions with you concerning the *interesting* top bunk problem that you mentioned. My proposals would also address membership problems which I believe might be inextricably linked :-)

PPS Again I prefer direct e-mail responses to me at [e-mail] .

PPPS and to Amos just thanks. The mention you gave of the Washington Square free-form jams caught me in the softest part of my heart..... those free form free wheeling on-going ballad sessions produced and enhanced the careers of an incredible amount of significant talent.

SLK

Subject: SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT- 2010 Program Planning
From: gene-peace
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:24 AM

10/14/2010 "Oh good grief, what do I have to do to get out of going through all this (crap*) twice? Or three times or more? - BD* (w/EL)

In response to Bill D's posts of 10/11- 6:41 PM, and 10/12- 10:16 PM

Damn the Slings & Arrows, Damn The Torpedos, Damn the Bullets and Damn the Cannon to the Right & Left of Me...STAY FOCUSED and think "Light Brigade", Gene and Charge, Charge, Charge!
(Um, maybe that is a bit too heavy for openers, Eh? Start again!)

Bill:

Beginning is tough, ending will be tougher...

For the record Bill, "slinging" alleged credentials around like "...I've attended 32 consecutive getaways", and "... I've been on THE (emphasis added) Committe several times", (um, which Committe was that Bill?), "and was a co-Chairman once", is decidedly NOT the way to impress someone (or their wife) unless you've done research into just whom it is that you think you're impressing!!!

So, in kind, and in context Bill:

Um, let's see- I could be wrong, but I don't recall your presence at the establishing of the Folk Music Club of George Washington University in 1961, nor at any of it's various official & unofficial functions from 1961-through 1964/5 as it transmorgrafied into the FSGW..nope I don't recall seeing you and the primordial party/ballad get-togethers at my good friend Dave Olive's Mothers House on Conn Ave, opposite the then bureau of standards, nope, don't think you were there, hmmm ya know I don't recall you ever being present when Stokely Carmichael (yep that Stokely) on many ocassions entertained us with his 5 to 10 minute skits featuring him as a "black, very Southern preacher-man of questionable moral terpatude (sp?), Sorta like Richard Pryor did as "Toodle-um" 25 years or so later. Nope, I don't think you were there either. The FSGW was founded in dangerous times, it provided the vehicle for musicly venting dissent against war
and more importantly proactively supportive of the civil rights movement centered in DC. Music and lyrics were composed hours before being sung on the "picket Lines" at Glen Echo Amusement Park, as well as at dozens of other locations. This organization was founded and hardened to the swinging of police Billy clubs, but I really don't recall seeing you at any of those events? I don't recall seeing you when my struck dumb parent's who thought that I was bringing a few friends over to sing folk songs, instead had over two hundred strangers, in their suburban home (a Doctors home) forone helluva good "ballad oriented" Hootenany. Nor at Mike Rivers, or was it Cogans houses in Northern, Va., I don't even recall seeing you at the VERY FIRST "Getaway" held at Andy Wallace's House, although it was actually more of an un-planned happening, you had to be there, but YOU weren't! You certainly never were present at my many sponsored music events in Mt Pleasant or in my crash pad in the Dupont Circle area, nope! I also don't ever recall seeing you at Chuck & Nan Purdue's, geez am I repeating myself?

Oh, by the way, I regularly did volunteer service at the Smithsonian Folk Festivals & served at the direction of Mary Cliff --- it was and is an honor to serve NOT A BADGE TO WEAR as part of your credentials.

I could go on and on...suffice it to say your self serving, unknowlegeable blatherings on this thread, and mean spirited attacks on my wife Sandra Koppel will NOT be tolerated by me...there are consequences associated with such unjustifiable behaviour, and I don't mean physical ones..... you now must live with yourself!

Good Luck
More to come
Gene R.

Well Bill, I guess

Subject: RE: Getaway 2010 Program Planning
From: jacqui.c
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:38 AM

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Admittedly I have only been to seven Getaways to date but the only problem that I have with the set up is that a weekend isn't long enough. I have no heavyweight credentials to offer but, as one who looks forward to this event year round I think that it works pretty well. there is obvious input to the ideas pool from various sources at a time closer to the actual date that helps to provide differing sessions each year.

What others may see as 'old and stale' are often chances to maybe get to a session that I wasn't able to make last year or to bring a new song to a favourite session. There is a lot to be said for having some familiar sessions each year.

That being said - I love the idea of a continuous ballad workshop. there are occasional times when I really am not interested in anything going on in a particular hour and to have a ballad area to go and listen or add a song would be wonderful.

Subject: RE: Getaway 2010 Program Planning
From: maeve
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 09:21 AM

I tell you what: I have never been to a Getaway. I've thought for a number of years, and continue to do so, that I'd enjoy many of the offerings there. I have a high regard for Getaway organizers and attendees, not only due to the wealth of musical experiences and opportunities extolled each year, but more due to the overwhelmingly positive and good humored.

I have offered suggestions and asked questions from time to time via email and PMs and have always been treated with respect and courtesy. It saddens me to read the recent exchange.

My regards and gratitude to Getaway organizers, formal or informal, to all those who take part, to FSGW, and to Nancy King in particular. I suspect there are more productive and less seemingly antagonistic methods (online humor is so tricky!) of reaching a mutual understanding of various desires, motives, and suggestions being discussed here.

Feel free to ignore my post if you wish.

Regards,

Maeve

Subject: RE: Getaway 2010 Program Planning
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 10:10 AM

Hey, guys:

The one thing the Getaway has always been about has been amity.
That's a simple defining space within which all things are possible.


A

Subject: RE: Getaway 2010 Program Planning
From: gene-peace
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 10:11 AM

I would NEVER ignore your post...........I wish I could say the same for others........

I decided to wait until there was yet another "uneducated post" on this thread before continuing, now there is... OH NOT YOURS, sorry!

I will now continue with what "Mudcater's" are NOT, in general aware of, actually, oops, let me take that back, actually which MOST Mudcater's suspect, but understanding of the nature of the "strange" politics involved between Mudcat & FSGW, have chosen and (correctly so) to view the events from the safety of the sidelines!!

Best
Gene R.

PS-Next post begins composing immediately
GR

Subject: RE: Getaway 2010 Program Planning
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 10:14 AM

........☺ ........

Further, deponent sayeth not.

Subject: RE: Getaway 2010 Program Planning
From: gene-peace
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 11:05 AM

Response to Amos:

We shall see my friend, we shall see...... it's with most sadness that I must confess that the worst is yet to come....amity as opposed to emnity, a "consumation devoutly to be wished..".... we can only hope, unfortunately MY hope well is about dry.... and the tea leaves suggest even worse............

But we shall see, my friend.

Gene R.