BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:02 PM

How does a person behaving exactly as if their intention is to reach a train and detonate explosives behave that differently from a person with the intention of just catching a train? Running for a train counts as suspicious? Fare-dodging means you're a terrorist?

I don't think you've been seeing the same interview as I have been, Anne. From what I've heard the people weren't scared of the actions of the man who got shot, they were alarmed because of the shooting, and then by the thought that, since thepolice had shot him, he must have been a bomber, and what a narrow escape they had had. And several of them described the police as having been in plain clothes.

For example, from the Times: The shooting had been graphically described by a series of witnesses. One passenger on the train, Mark Whitby, said shortly afterwards: "As the man got on the train I looked at his face. He looked from left to right, but he basically looked like a cornered rabbit, like a cornered fox. He looked absolutely petrified.

"He sort of tripped but they were hotly pursuing him and couldn't have been more than two or three feet behind him at this time. They unloaded five shots into him. I saw it. He's dead, five shots, he's dead."

I see the Evening Standard now says the dead man was "believed to be of South American appearance". Near enough to looking like he might be a Muslim, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:35 PM

None of the witness accounts appear to say that anyone shouted police.

Its a sad indictment that no-one intervened to help, although if someone had a gun, highly understandable.

I can't believe the callous attitude of some of those on this thread who seem to think its acceptable to murder the guy, as he didn't do the right thing for whatever reason. He may have been deaf, aggrophophic, or a multitude of other things.

They would change their tune if it was a member of their family

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:08 PM

And maybe the guy was running because he'd just snatched a purse, didn't pay a parking ticket, was jaywalking, was an illegal alien, etc. Why not try to escape by fleeing onto a train? People do it in the movies all the time. ("French Connection," anyone?) Whatever he did, he didn't deserve to be executed by a gang of "anti-terrorist" thugs.

And to all you sick, horrible, racist limey scumbags celebrating this guy's death: Well, you're sick, horrible, racist limey scumbags. "Slay all the uppity darkies so we can feel safe while shopping for alcohol/bland food/tea cosies!" You're reacting to the bombings exactly as "the terrorists," whoever they are, planned for you to react. And you're just too fucking retarded to realise it. Grow some fucking balls, people. Are you that afraid of death? So you might be blown up on the bus. More likely, you could slip in the shower and crack your fragile little heads... Are you going to stop bathing, now, too? You're weak, stupid, cowardly people. Seriously, I'm glad you're all going to be speaking Urdu and Bengali soon.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Willie-O
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:12 PM

Guess I will be interested to see if they ever release any photographic evidence of what the guy was actually wearing...let alone if the ensemble included "wires", which as noted are an extremely common accessory for young men these days. (might want to rethink that trend in urban areas. The wireless age is here.)

Given the initial information given, he sure sounded guilty...but in retrospect, where did that information come from?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:18 PM

Right on Lepus.....Thank fuck theres a few sane people left...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Mohammed Smith
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:20 PM

Where the information always comes from, Willie-O

We believed this guy was a terrorist the day he was shot.

Governments change their stories all the time.

Normally to protect themselves.
Not necessarily, the public

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:29 PM

Thing is, the police would be being hailed as 'heroes' if indeed the guy had been wired to go boom.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Mohammed Smith
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:35 PM

But he wasn't, Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:37 PM

True. The question will likely be one of why didn't he stop when ordered to do so. Scared maybe, or mixed up. Tragic no matter how one looks at it. And please believe me when I say I am not making light of it all.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Mohammed Smith
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:44 PM

They should have found out what his business was by now.

They should know the flat he came out of.
Who owned it.
What exactly he was doing there.
And where he was going.

We are told he was not linked to ongoing enquiries.

What was he linked to, then?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: wildlone
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 04:48 PM

The man shot was Brazilian.
Stockwell shooting

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Rumncoke
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 05:19 PM

I think the man easily qualifies for a Darwin award for his method of removing himself from the Human genepool.

By the way - 'jaywalking' is not an offence here, anyone can cross the ordinary roads wherever/whenever they like with no fear of prosecution. The motorways have different rules, you can only legally walk along the hard shoulder in an emergency. Trying to cross all six lanes on foot - or in a vehicle for that matter, usually gets at least a Darwin nomination.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Mohammed Smith
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 05:23 PM

"I think the man easily qualifies for a Darwin award for his method of removing himself from the Human genepool"

So he deserved it anyway, is that what you're saying?

How arbitary would you like to make that award?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,smiler
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 05:29 PM

Its not a nice way of talking about the newly deceased Anne.

Shame on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Mohammed Smith
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 05:39 PM

It's easy to see she has never died before

But a Met spokesman has said that the Force is ... wait for it... 'Playing out of their socks at the minute'

... I'd hate to see them on a bad day

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 05:40 PM

Lepus you are reacting exactly how the BNP would like you to react, if you lived in the UK.

Check out the identities of the victims of the train bombs, they represent the population of London quite well, many nationalities and religions.

This isn't being treated as a white/black war over here, it is being treated as a pissed off with having our city bombed situation. Only assholes like the BNP are trying to gain a race hate issue from the events.

We have had decades of the IRA making us uneasy in our stations and shopping centres, now we have this.

I couldn't give a toss what colour the bombers are, they are bombers, they don't hurt anymore by being black, white, yellow or green. They hurt period.

I live in London, I use the tubes, I pay for the police wages, I expect the police to make my family live safer than they would if the police didn't exist. I also expect the people of London and those visiting will have had a sharp kick up the rear end and realise that it is all our responsibility to act with a modicum of commonsense in these times.

I am sick of being evacuated from stations for years because some idiot has wandered off and left an unattended bag. I am sick of worrying when security alerts and bomb scares disrupt and scare those I love.

I am relieved that the police at last are sending the message that needed to be sent a long time ago, that they can offer us protection.

Of course I am saddened an innocent may have lost his life because of this, but if you want to blame someone, blame Bush and Blair, and not the people on this forum who live with this threat every day of their lives. I didnt vote for them. I am also not a racist. I am a parent and totally fucked off with panicking everytime my kids go on a school trip.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 05:52 PM

don't some of you ever wonder why & how supposedly intelligent people can look at EXACTLY the same information and come such different conclusions?

"He shouldn't have run after the earlier events...."
"They shouldn't have shot without knowing more..."

You know, both might be true...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:09 PM

DONUEL SAID:
For this he was puched to the floor of the train carriage and shot 5 times in cold blood.

No, it appears he was shot in HOT blood. This is common with soldiers and with police, that in "action" scenarios, when the adrenalin is flowing free, people make bad choices, grievous slips of judgment. If indeed an investigation shows that their action was not justified, then it's this hot-blood bad judgment thing.

Of course I realize that the phrase "in cold blood" has a nice ring to it, Donuel, but it's not applicable either under the justified or unjustified scenario.


One witness said the man being chased looked like a scared fox or rabbit being hunted.

This sentence has nothing to do with the case. It could as easily be true whether the pursued was innocent or conscious of being guilty as hell.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:20 PM

It's a tragedy and there has to be an inquiry. Our police can be fantastic but they also of a history of screwing up big time, thing is, in this country it usually comes out in the open, eventually.

Seems to demonstrate how sensible it is, in normal circumstances, NOT to let the police have guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:22 PM

I live in Canada's west. I want the cops here to have guns. It's the criminals I wish didn't have the guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:31 PM

As I understand the quotes or paraphrases I've read from the high police official, this individual was definitely not connected with the bombing attempt of yesterday (or was it the day before?)

Please note that he did not say "He was not connected with the previous, sucessful four bombings." Nor did he say that he was not a terrorist.

We just flat-out don't know enough of the underlying facts to make judgments about this, tempting as it is for some here (I really don't have to name names) to wax indignant and throw words like "murder" and "in cold blood" around.

I will acknowledge someone's (or maybe a series of someones') comment above that we may never know. That's a possibility. But for now, all we have grounds for is a concerned (and perhaps suspicious) heightening of attention.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:37 PM

Well Peace you're a very lucky person to be living where you do, it doesn't really get any better, but as far as guns are concerned some of us believe that providing the police with them will only encourage more criminals to carry them also.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Shakey
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:40 PM

"Well Peace you're a very lucky person to be living where you do, it doesn't really get any better, but as far as guns are concerned some of us believe that providing the police with them will only encourage more criminals to carry them also."

Sorry, that was me again forgetting to use my name (I know it irks some of you out there and I wouldn't want that)

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:41 PM

OK to that, Shakey. Let us know if it works.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:43 PM

With the very public way this was done I do not believe there will be a cover up, everything will have to come out in the open. The police will have to answer questions and these police officers will
now face an enquiry and most likely subsequent punishment.

Most likely there will be silence on the part of the police for a few days whilst their investigation team gets working.

There are just too many witnesses to allow this to be covered up.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:49 PM

Apparently his family doesn't think he deserves the label that Rummed and Coked spat on to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:50 PM

These are supposed to be highly trained professionals, not ordinary bobbies who've been handed guns for the first time, who might be expected to be hyped up and panicky.

So now it isn't just the bombers we have to be frightened of, it's the police. And with the weather set to break tonight everyone is liable to be wearing coats, which puts them at risk. And of course Muslims come in all colours, so if they're looking out for anyone who looks like they could be a Muslim, that's all of us. But more especially those of us with brown skins. And beards, of course, so male folkies should be particularly cautious.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:54 PM

They could kill a few birds with the one stone there, McGrath...

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:57 PM

Ah, a Brazilian! If I'd been raised in Brazil, I probably wouldn't stop for a bunch of plainclothes goons, either...

And GUEST @ 05:40 PM, you poor, poor, thing! I bet you're just a nervous wreck, worrying about the ten million-to-one chance that your kids might be blown up on a field trip. (Never mind that they probably have a better chance of being mauled by wild dogs...) And all those inconveniences at the station! What a drag! Boo fucking hoo. Quit moaning and get over it. Your life is easy compared to that of, say, most Brazilians. You should feel fortunate that you're allowed to draw breath at all.

And, sorry, stupid, but you get to have a Muslim minority for your Empire, and you get to have a pissed off Muslim minority for the actions of your government. And don't give me that "but I didn't vote for them" bullshit. You live in a nation of people who did, and, like me and millions of others, didn't do enough to stop them. Do more next time, and worry less.

And by the way, being pumped full of bullets is slightly more serious than a "sharp kick up the rear end." This man was executed, by the police, for being fucking swarthy. In London. In 2005. This makes you feel safe? You said "I am relieved that the police at last are sending the message that needed to be sent a long time ago, that they can offer us protection." Offer you protection. Presumably, you're white, then. Because anyone darker than, say, taupe, seems to be fair game now. But, hey, at least you can sleep soundly... right?

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:04 PM

Lepus have you met david hannam?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:16 PM

"I am relieved that the police at last are sending the message that needed to be sent a long time ago, that they can offer us protection."

Well, they protected you from the guy who had no bomb, but they weren't much help against the guys that had bombs.

I am amazed at the fearful and subservient attitude i see in so meany posts here.

Regardless of the ultimate guilt or innocence of the dead man, dressing and/or acting unusual shouldn't be a capital offense. And the police shouldn't be allowed to determine and execcute the death sentence. Think of what you're saying: you people are asking for everone to dress and act alike under penalty of summary execution by the Authorities. I never thought that Americans or Britons would actually ask for a police state.

Do you really think that Big Brother loves you and has your interests at heart?

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:19 PM

Innocent Iraqis die, innocent Britons die, innocent Brazilians die. That's what happens in war.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 07:21 PM

You can include every other nationality in there as well

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 08:55 PM

GUEST @ 07:04 PM: Touché!

*snort*

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 09:00 PM

Now be a good boy and quit chewing that stalk.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 09:25 PM

It's a tragedy engendered by the fact that fallible human beings are being asked to protect a capital city when faced with people willing to kill themselves and anyone near them at anytime in any place. This is a new circumstance where all the entrenched beliefs expressed above from both sides need to be set aside and thought about very seriously in the light of what has happened.None of us have faced this situation before and this poor man is as much a victim of the suicide bombers as anyone else they have killed. We are not in a right or wrong situation here, we are in a new situation and new thoughts and approaches are needed.
The freedoms and rights we have always taken for granted are under threat, but it is too easy to say that the state is threatening us, when the state is doing it's best to protect us from what is, basically, an undefendable attack.
The whole thing is a tragedy of epeic proportions and will be for far longer than any of us can conceive. We must learn to live with mistakes and learn from them, but in the end always remember that the people responsible for this mess are religious fanatics who wish to kill indiscriminately.
Don't throw the first stone without serious thought. We're going to have to deal with this for a very long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 09:37 PM

He was an illegal immigrant that had been in England for three years. An electrician from Brazil that did not speak English. He was probably terrified of being deported.

I don't think he deserved to die.

I'm glad the police are being honest.

I hope nobody uses this incident to blame him for being an illegal immigrant but I'm sure they will.

I really feel for the people of London. Its bad enough to be victimized by terrorist but equally as bad to fear that you may be shot by mistake. I hope the good people of London continue to stick together and support each other through these trying times.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Hrothgar
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 09:59 PM

If the police were watching a whole block of flats, why did they pick this bloke to follow?

Might have to wait until the coroner asks that question to get an answer, and the police will have an interesting time developing an answer. From what I understand of London demographics these days, there are any number of people who could fit this bloke's general description living around that area. Are they all at risk?

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: number 6
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 10:36 PM

This very tragic incident was not the result of some 'trigger happy policey' but the rusult of some very nervous if not outright scared people who have been giving their their most in trying to protect the public. Don't forget these people have been extremely busy, working beyond 'the limit' for the last 2 weeks. I'm certainly not condoning this shooting, it disturbs me immensly. I'm certainly not going to condemn the police in their actions. I am sickened by this killing, I am also sickened of the murder of all other innocent victims of the recent terrorist bombings.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST,Guest, Soldier Boy.
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 06:36 AM

Why are most people surprised when the police shoot an innocent person, this unfortunate Brazilian man going to his work and confronted by a gang of hoods did what most people would have done, ran for his life.

Remember the man was reported to the London police as an Irishman carrying a gun, he was shot dead, turned out he was a Scot, carrying a chair-leg.

There was many more in England, trigger happy bastards abound in all police forces.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 06:41 AM

I would like to offer a few points that occur to me when I hear of this kind of tragic occurence.

This young man is a victim of something much broader in scope than any issue of race, philosophy, or religion.

His death is the direct result of a fundamental flaw in the way that we think about our fellow human beings. We perceive difference where no difference exists. What I mean by this is that we are all of one race, the human race.

We are all, quite literally, in one boat, and until we stop separating the accommodation on that boat into first, second, and third classes, we will never be free of the divisive issues that lead to resentment, and conflict.

We seem to have great difficulty in accepting that there are many ways to live this one life we are given, and that all of those ways are equally valid for those who choose them.

Only when we learn to respect those who follow a different path, and encourage and help them to the best of our ability, will we conquer resentment, and enjoy peace.

My heart goes out to this young man, and his family and friends. He had the misfortune to be in the wrong place, at the wrong time, and, through fear, he reacted in the wrong way. Did he deserve to die? Emphatically NO!

At the same time, I cannot condemn the police officers involved, who, rightly or wrongly, reacted to an extraordinary situation, by making a decision. The fact that there was no bomb does not of itself render that decision criminal. Their brief for use of deadly force is based on their reasonable belief in an imminent threat to their lives, or the lives of members of the public. IMHO their actions were entirely justifiable on that basis.

It is also to their credit, that there was no attempt to cover up the mistake. How many of the world's police forces, do you think, would have immediately published the facts, with an apology?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:00 AM

According to his friends dianavan he spoke good english. But of course you know better. Don't your conspiracy theories ever take a day off?

Of course it was a tragic accident. And regardless of the enormity of the accident, we will learn from it. I hope the police involved are treated well. I think they will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:02 AM

"Mr Menezes' cousin Mr Pereira said the 27-year-old was from the city of Gonzaga in Minas Gerais state, and had lived in London legally for at least three years and spoke excellent English." (From the BBC news site.)

The most likely explanation for him running is that he thought he was being chased by some bunch of racists. How are you supposed to tell plain clothes police from BNP vigilantes if your skin is brown?

True enough, the poor man was another victim of the bombers - but also of what appears to have been a seriously botched operation. Assuming they thought he was a bomber, there should have been someone in front of him at the station entrance when he was challenged, to stop him entering and getting access to the trains. From that point on it sounds like a desperate attempt to rectify a terrible mistake, which resulted in another terrible mistake, this time involving the death of an innocent man.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:10 AM

Good point about having someone at the station. It is the nearest tube to the flats. If the police are vilified over this will they react at all next time, when the threat is real? Practise unfortunately might make perfect.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:20 AM

Well, so far its a 100% failure rate

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:35 AM

Which means it can only improve.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:51 AM

London mayor Ken Livingstone said: "The police acted to do what they believed necessary to protect the lives of the public.

"This tragedy has added another victim to the toll of deaths for which the terrorists bear responsibility."


Well said Ken. He could so easily have used this as a police bashing exercise. Our elected representative echoes our thoughts. The mindless rubbish being spouted by people who have never set foot in the City is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: greg stephens
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:52 AM

Dianavan: was this lad really an illegal immigrant who didnt speak English? Was this a rumour you heard, and if so where? People seem so quick to jump to conclusions in these very tense and scary times, I think you, or any of us, should quote sources for your assertions.

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:59 AM

People have been jumping to conclusions since the man 'removed himself from the genepool'

Subject: RE: BS: Murder of the directly linked terrorist
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 08:00 AM

If we give the police carte blanche to shoot up Muslim areas and continue with our policy in Iraq, the next bomb could be silent and kill thousands and still we would be no nearer to defeating terrorism.

diananvan must read the same papers as akenaton.