BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'

Subject: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 05:55 PM

BLICKY.

What can I say?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 06:16 PM

Short term gains may lead to long term setbacks. Once enough people around the world in the right sort of positions believe that they really are nutters, attitudes will change. After all, Hitler published his manifesto years before he came to power, and nobody believed that he would ever be a threat - well a few did, but they weren't taken seriously either.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 07:06 PM

I am embarrassed and ashamed to tell you that David Frum, one of the creators of that sick manifesto, is not only Canadian, but is the son of one of Canada's finest political analysts and interviewers, Barbara Frum, who died much too soon. He does her no credit.

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 07:06 PM

Maybe the idea is to make Bush look like a moderate rather than an extremist, until that election is out of the way.

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Amos
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 07:17 PM

Funny, Kevin!! You mean moderate in contrast to the foaming set? It has a certain scripted feel to it. Wonder if Rove encouraged them to make their feelings known just at the right time...


A

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 07:57 PM

Oh, hell! While we're about all this regime changin' let's just go ahead an' change 'em all! Get those damned furriners outta there an' put some 'Mericans in charge jus' like in Iraq.

'Course that would mean havin' to start th' draft back up an', maybe, draftin' every man an' woman under th' age of 65 an' sendin' 'em all overseas to enforce the freedoms of all th' formerly enslaved people in those newly lib'rated countries. But, hey, no cost is too great when it comes down t' shovin' th' 'Merican Way of Life down other people's throats.

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 08:24 PM

Richard Perle: "It's important to recognize that Iraq is a country with an enormously talented people, and that is well understood by the rest of the Arab world. So there is real concern when the rest of the Arab world observes suffering in Iraq, which is now widely attributed, I think wrongly, to the embargo that's been in effect for many years. That is very different from believing that the Arab world supports Saddam Hussein, or that it would not welcome the elimination of Saddam Hussein's regime. I think there would be dancing in the streets if Saddam were removed from power, and that reaction of the Iraqi people would be reflected in the attitude of the Arab world, generally. So the notion that if we go after Iraq we are somehow going to advance in the direction of a war against Islam that will turn out to be far worse for us, I think is really quite mistaken. ..."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/interviews/perle.html

Last night's Charlie Rose had both Perle and Frum on as his guests. I didn't listen to the whole show- I couldn't take the atmosphere. Both came off as quite unpleasant people.

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Mudlark
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 08:40 PM

My assessment of them as well...and no, I would not buy a car from these men. (Or from Charlie Rose either, for that matter.)

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 08:54 PM

That's interesting, Mudlark. I know nothing of Rose except on his show. Do you have more information?

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 09:02 PM

Oh, Richard, Richard, Richard.... You never give up on that idea of colonial dominance of the world. I think we should name you and ter buddy, Paul Wolfowitz, the neocols (for colonialism) as opposed to the neocons, which you really aren't. You are a radical liberal who doesn't have opnce ounce of conservative blood flowing thru yer body.

You are very much cut out in the mold of Hitler. A radical. An outragious radical. Nothing more. Nothing less. A radical. It don't matter who's president. You went to Bill Clinton with the same colonial imperialistic crap and he did the correct thing: threw yer radical butt out. So now you have the Bush the Lesser in your pocket? Well, I'm sure that gives you a big old fashion swelled imperialistic colonialist head... Enjoy it while it lasts 'cuase according to my Wes Ginny Slide Rule, America's working class can't afford yer appitite for invading and occupying other folks countries... Might of fact, I believe you've sold yer last invasion unless youwant to draft every friggin' man that has two legs.... The you still gotta find enough taxpayers left to pay for the invasions and occuapations, invasions and occupations, invasions and occupationds, inv...........

Get my drift?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Metchosin
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 09:11 PM

Actually pdc, Barbara Frum, as much as I miss her sharp mind, was no beacon from the left or the centre, she just kept it under wraps better; her son has not strayed too far from the bone.

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Jan 04 - 10:14 PM

Charlie Rose is one of the few bright spots on the wasteland of TV....

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 09 Jan 04 - 01:41 PM

And they wonder why the Islamic people don't much like us. Also, how is it that every Democrat is a "GD Liberal" but not every conservative is a "Right Wing nut case" or "Fascist". I can't fathom it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Cluin
Date: 09 Jan 04 - 01:48 PM

Agree with pdc.... David Frum is a Canadian export we can take no pride in whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Jan 04 - 02:21 PM

http://www.bloomberg.com/media/tv/crose/bio.html

I've been doing some reading about Charlie Rose, and I'm even more impressed than I was. Individual shows vary, of course, because he hosts such wildly disparate people as Mick Jagger and Madeleine Albright and everyone between. There are times I don't watch it- but I always check to see who he has on and on what subject. In my opinion, Charlie Rose and Ted Koppel's Nightline are two of the most worthwhile - i.e., informative- shows on the air.

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 09 Jan 04 - 02:27 PM

much of what Perle & his Ilk believe is found at this site, Project for a New American Century. here is the page with the statement of principals, check out the signers and you'll get the idea. scroll around the site & read the letters etc. and it becomes clear where this administration is coming from and where they hope to drag us.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 09:58 AM

"Isn't this a time...to try the souls of men"...........

One thing to be said for Perle, he is consistent.   At one time he was called "The Angel of Death" for his nuclear policy.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 10:25 AM

Here's an article from the CSM about the top neo-Con think tanks:

Empire Builders

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Peter T.
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 10:37 AM

Read Colin Powell's recent op-ed piece in the New York Times, and you discover that he believes all the ridiculous nonsense the administration has been spouting the last year. The dream of a sane voice is chimerical.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 10:44 AM

I almost forgot this one...

The Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies

"Following is a report prepared by The Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies' "Study Group on a New Israeli Strategy Toward 2000." The main substantive ideas in this paper emerge from a discussion in which prominent opinion makers, including Richard Perle, James Colbert, Charles Fairbanks, Jr., Douglas Feith, Robert Loewenberg, David Wurmser, and Meyrav Wurmser participated. The report, entitled "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm," is the framework for a series of follow-up reports on strategy."

"Israel can shape its strategic environment, in cooperation with Turkey and Jordan, by weakening, containing, and even rolling back Syria. This effort can focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq — an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right"

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Amos
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 08:01 PM

It is interesting to note that this letter to President Wm Clinton completely articulates the Bush administration's fraudulent rationale for the war on the Hussein regime, long before the Bush administration ever came into power. it is signed by a stellar array of neocolonials, imperialistas and right-wing nuts, including the distinguished Paul Wolfowitz. It also contains a faint sense of implied threat about what would happen to Bill if he didn't pay attention.

Clever how Bush has made Wolfowitz' policies appear as his own.

Plus ca change...


A

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Jan 04 - 08:17 PM

Not much of a quarrel with the premise that Saddam is/was a baddie, but how did we make the jump from an immediate bin Laden/Taliban threat to an elective Iraqi war? Talk about crisis management- the chances are very good, I think, that we're going to pay a price for not giving enough weight to Afghanistan. Eb

January 10, 2004 CRAWFORD, Texas - Former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill contends the United States began laying the groundwork for an invasion of Iraq (just days after President Bush took office in January 2001 — more than two years before the start of the U.S.-led war that ousted Saddam Hussein. "From the very beginning, there was a conviction that Saddam Hussein was a bad person and that he needed to go," O'Neill told CBS's "60 Minutes" in an interview to be aired Sunday night.

... But O'Neill, who was fired by Bush in December 2002, said he had qualms about what he asserted was the pre-emptive nature of the war planning. "For me, the notion of pre-emption, that the U.S. has the unilateral right to do whatever we decide to do, is a really huge leap," (emphasis mine) according to an excerpt of the interview that CBS released Saturday.

The administration has not found evidence that the Iraqi leader was involved in the Sept. 11 attacks but officials have said they had to consider the possibility that Saddam could have undertaken an even larger scale-strike against the United States.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan would not confirm or deny that the White House began Iraq war planning early in Bush's term. But, he said, Saddam "was a threat to peace and stability before September 11th, and even more of a threat after September 11."

"It appears that the world according to Mr. O'Neill is more about trying to justify his own opinions than looking at the reality of the results we are achieving on behalf of the American people," McClellan said in Texas, where the president is staying at his ranch.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=8&u=/ap/20040110/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/bush_o_neill_7
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Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: DougR
Date: 11 Jan 04 - 05:06 PM

"He does her no credit", (pdc), because his views do not jibe with yours, and ostensibley hers, right?

Don: So Pearle and Frum wrote a book. Try going to a bookstore sometime and take a look at the shelves that contain political books. They are crammed with books touting the "Right" way for Bush to conduct foreign policy, and the "Left" way to conduct it.

It's a book. That's all it is.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jan 04 - 05:14 PM

It's not "just" a book, DougR. It is a manifesto. BIG difference, as anyone who has read 'Mein Kampf' knows. And if that offends anybody, so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 04 - 05:17 PM

It's a book. That's all it is.

--DougR

Sure, DougR. And so is Mao's Little Red Book. And Mein Kampf, now that I think about it. And JtS reminds me that The Turner Diaries is also a book.

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jan 04 - 05:18 PM

Looks like we cross posted, Ebbie.

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jan 04 - 05:33 PM

And the Protocols of the Elders of Zion-

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 04 - 07:26 PM

As I said, these guys have the useful function of making other marginally more cautious extremists appear to be relatively moderate. All extremist operations - Left, Right and Centre - tend to pull this kind of ploy from time to time.

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Jan 04 - 08:08 PM

"It's a book." Yup. Others have said what I would say in answer to that. Just to add to the list, so is the Bible. So is the Koran. So is Das Kapital. "That's all it is," you say? That's all it needs to be.

Too bad I'm going to have to miss 60 Minutes tonight. It sounds like it's a good one. But at 7:00 p.m. when it comes on here locally, I will be at Central Lutheran Church on Seattle's Capitol Hill, where Washington State 7th District Congressman Jim McDermott (D) will be speaking. Got to get there early, because the place will be jammed. Last time he spoke there, the church was so packed that people who didn't get there way early didn't get in. I'll take notes.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Jan 04 - 08:38 PM

Don, thanks for starting the thread. I heard a fair amount of a radio interview with these two on Friday. I can't remember which program it was, but they were discussing this book. And I had the same thought someone else posted--that these guys are so far out there that this is a red herring. They'll catch enough of the spotlight to make that ass George Dubya look moderate.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: DougR
Date: 11 Jan 04 - 11:57 PM

Don: You'd stand in line to hear McDermitt speak? Er, well ...uh...ok.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 01:41 AM

Doug: You think ridicule is discussion? Er, well ...uh...ok.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 01:43 AM

So what's wrong with Jim McDermott, DougR?

"This is what Congressman McDermott, who opposed the war, had to say once it began:

"My prayers are with our troops and the Iraqi people: that our troops will return home safely and that deaths of innocent Iraqi children and other civilians will be avoided.

"I do not agree with the path that President Bush has chosen. This war
was avoidable. I fear that bypassing the United Nations and demanding regime change by force instead of working toward peaceful disarmament is a dangerous step for our nation.

"An important difference between our country and Iraq is that we can and do speak out. Americans should continue to exercise their Constitutional right to express their beliefs.

"The legacies of war remain with us forever. We now owe the Iraqi people the fulfillment of the promises our President has made to them."

http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/03/08/14_mcdermott.html

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 04:09 PM

Yes, Doug, I would stand in line to hear Jim McDermott speak (by the way, that's McDermott, with an "o", not an "i"). I didn't have to though, because, remembering when he spoke there last year, I arrived way, way early. A helluva lot of people did stand in line, the church was jam-packed, and unfortunately, a whole bunch of people who wanted to hear him came too late to get in.

McDermott spoke for about an hour, and there was a lively question-and-answer period that also lasted for nearly an hour. A reception followed in the parish house next door. I took copious notes, and it's going to take me awhile to sort out all the information that came from this event, but as I do so, I'll be posting lots of it, if not here, then on other threads.

In the meantime, here are few of the many thought provokers that McDermott laid on the assembled multitudes (these are not exact quotes—trying to translate my scribbled notes—but they're close):—

[Washington scuttlebutt has it that] "The Bush administration is on a crash-course to get out of Iraq by June 1st. This is an election year, after all. But—if we do, Iraq will be left in chaos. What, for example, will happen to the Kurds while the Sunnis and Shiites are struggling for control?"

"When we do pull out, some 150,000 young people—our troops—will be returning home. Some 5 to 6,000 of them are coming home with physical wounds, and an untold number with psychological wounds . . . These young people are not stupid. They were willing to lay their lives on the line, and they want to feel that they did it for something worthwhile . . . In the meantime, 25% of the troops that have returned so far have returned to no jobs. Their jobs have evaporated while they were gone . . . The government treated the Vietnam veterans shabbily. We must—we must—do better for our veterans than that! That's another thing that the Bush administration didn't take into consideration, and it's going to be a big problem for them."

[And if we are really interested in spreading true democracy and self-determination] "Can we accept the idea that the government the Iraqi people want may not be the government we want them to have?"

These are only a few. More to come.

Yes, Doug, I would stand in line to hear Jim McDermott speak. As would many more people than you would find it comfortable to think about. Jim McDermott, unlike our current administration, has a profound respect for the truth and, as he says, "I've found out the hard way what happens to people in government who stick their heads up, look around, and tell their constituents what they see. But as long as you will listen to me, I'll keep doing it."

Damn straight I'll listen to a man like that!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 04 - 04:49 PM

"You'd stand in line to hear McDermitt speak? Er, well ...uh...ok."

I'd call that a perfect example of flippancy, Doug. About which CS Lewis (in the person of the veteran devil Screwtape) had some interesting things to say:

"Flippancy is the best of all... every serious subject is discussed in a manner which implies that they have already found a ridiculous side to it. If prolonged, the habit of Flippancy builds up around a man the best armour plating against the Enemy that I know... It is a thousand miles away from joy; it deadens, instead of sharpening, the intellect; and it excites no affection between those who practise it."

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: DougR
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 06:46 PM

There are few politicians I would stand in line to hear them speak. Can't think of any as a matter of fact.

Were I to do so, though, I'm sure it would be someone with whom I agree, as you, Don, obviously did. Oops. You didn't have to stand in line. Sorry.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 09:14 PM

Doug, you seem to have a great fondness for attempting to trivialize any viewpoint that doesn't agree with your own, and of trying to make those who hold that viewpoint appear even more closed-minded than you are. I don't just listen to people I agree with. I fully realize that considering other viewpoints can be a learning experience, even if I don't agree with that viewpoint. And who knows? A well-reasoned argument backed up with sufficiently convincing and verifiable data may indeed change my mind. The day I am not open to learning something new will be the day they may as well put a tag on my toe, toss a sheet over me, and close the drawer.

But I guess what you don't seem to be grasping here is that a lot of what Jim McDermott talked about was not just opinion. Being very much in the center of things and knowing what's going on in D.C. and elsewhere, he is also aware of how much important information is not getting to the public because they are so poorly served by those whom you like to think of as "the liberal media:" ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC and FNC along with the print media, including that bastion of the liberal press, the Wall Street Journal. McDermott feels that his constituents have a right to know what's really going on. He didn't just voice opinions and make assertions. As he spoke, he gave lots of different sources where one could look up information for oneself on the things he was talking about. You see, he has faith in the concept of an informed electorate—providing someone will inform them or give them the information necessary to inform themselves.   He opposes the idea of a conned electorate, and he is doing everything he can to fight that.

As I said above, you can learn a lot by listening to people you don't agree with. But you can also learn a lot by listening to people you do agree with who are in a better position to know more about what's going on than you are.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jan 04 - 10:37 PM

Learn.

Dougie.

Mutually exclusive.

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 05:01 AM

No more than many of us here, I'd say, Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 08:22 AM

Oh, I'd say considerably more, based on a review of posting history. Of course, I have a right to my opinion, as Dougie would tell me. And has done. Often. Ad nauseum.

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 08:35 AM

"There is a minority of intellectual pacifists whose real though unadmitted motive appears to be hatred of Western democracy and admiration of totalitarianism. Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other but if one looks closely at the writings of younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the US. Moreover they do not as a rule condemn violence as such, but only violence used in defense of Western countries." - George Orwell (in 1945), quoted in a letter to The Spectator

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 09:43 AM

Fine quote about flippancy. I'll remember that next time when someone from the other camp uses the word 'pretzel' in the middle of a political discussion.

Ahhh, that's different, it only brightens up the discussion for a moment? I see.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 10:58 AM

Depends on context. Finding something funny in a politician choking on a pretzel, for instance is essentially the same as finding it funny when he slips on a banana skin. Slapstick humour, which isn't the same as flippancy.

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 05:46 PM

An anonymous Guest quotes an attribution to what he/she says is Orwell.

"There is a minority of intellectual pacifists whose real though unadmitted motive appears to be hatred of Western democracy and admiration of totalitarianism."

Assuming that the attribution of this is by Orwell, the Guest who we don't know is making a point that this minority are pacifist. It's not true. True Pacifist eschew all violence.



" Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other but if one looks closely at the writings of younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the US."

Pacifism doesn't boil down to this at all. I have a suspicion that Orwell may not have said this. The nature of Pacifism is that political wrongs can be overcome by non-violent resistance. Britain and the United States have a history of violent solutions. I don't think anyone who is sincere about non-violent resistance would not express impartial disapproval over injustice whether it comes from Western countries or any others.

"Moreover they do not as a rule condemn violence as such, but only violence used in defense of Western countries."

This is nonsense. Anyone who equivacates on the use of violence is not a Pacifist.


- George Orwell (in 1945), quoted in a letter to The Spectator

Not sure what the relevance of this post has to do with this threada but it is open to context. I would like to know what, if it is accurate, refers to?

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 06:16 PM

They are genuine Orwell quotes. The context was the war. Orwell was never a pacifist, and he used the term extremely loosely.

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 07:23 PM

If you cannot see the context, then I am unable to debate the issue. So far no-one has explained how the west is supposed to deal with terrorists by negotiation? These people (Saddam included) absolutely pervert all rules of engagement and levels of force. They have made a mockery of, and constantly defy the UN with impunity; and are perverting all attempts of peacefull negotiation by indoctrinating people against the west. The war may not have been pleasant, but it sure was needed.

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 07:32 PM

... and once again, the anonymous madmen come...

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 07:42 PM

WEll I wouldn't out it that way, Foolestroupe.

But honestly: "...I am unable to debate the issue"

"Debating" is perhaps the one thing which a GUEST without a handle can never do; debating imnplies arguing back and forth, and that requires some kind of continuity. Heckling or graffiti are not debating.

PLease though, let's not get into the general discission about nameless GUESTS here - there are at least two current threads specifically about it.

But if this specific "GUEST Date: 14 Jan 04 - 07:23 PM" want to get into a debate about the issues in this thread, there isn't really any alternative but to adopt a temporary handle, in order for that to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 08:14 PM

So far no-one has explained how the west is supposed to deal with terrorists by negotiation?

Since most of the "terrorists" that the "west" is currently "dealing" with at this time, are terrorists of our own creation, the simple answer would be to stop creating them. And to stop creating the conditions that feed the desire of others to support them. It's not Democracy most of these people have a problem with. Most of them would probably like to live in democracies themselves. What they have a problem with is imperialism (US and British imperialism), which makes it impossible for them to experience democracy or freedom because, very likely, the US and Britain are propping up totalitarian dictators in their own countries. Big, big, difference.

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 08:18 PM

well spoken Don, and I have to say Jim McDermott sounds like
a much needed voice of reason and - more importantly a voice for truth...
while my own point of view on the Iraq war initially went from being undecided, I tended to agree most with Michael Ignatieffs point of view - that from a humanitarian standpoint what is the best thing for the Iraqi people? It may be to get rid of Saddam.. but at what cost?
which was the unknown, so its not an easy decision.

and it is apparent that the electorate was conned, from the shifting arguments about wmds, (which havent been found - and looks like the teams searching for them are heading home) to bringing democracy to the Iraqis. (although strictly speaking democracy in America probably took 80 years to establish - if not more)

now the plan is to pull out by June (democracy or not) because it's an election year. Which is inexcusable, as they may not be able to do anything about the wmds but the US owns Iraq now, so having made the choice to invade - they owe it to the Iraqis now to get it right.

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jan 04 - 08:27 PM

Just remembered this. I discovered recently that Saddam got his start working as an assasin for the CIA. His job was to assisninate the ruler of Iraq at that time. He failed at that job, and the CIA took care of it using a different tactic; a CIA backed coup that installed the Ba'ath party in power. Saddam was a member of the Ba'ath party, and he rose from within the ranks to become the ruler of Iraq.

I already knew about the coup, but I didn't know until just recently that Saddam had worked for the CIA as an assasin prior to the coup.

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jan 04 - 02:05 AM

Amos,

Thanks for the link to the letter, it made interesting reading, particularly when you look at when it was written.

Bobert 08 Jan 04 - 09:02 PM

"Oh, Richard, Richard, Richard.... You went to Bill Clinton with the same colonial imperialistic crap and he did the correct thing: threw yer radical butt out."

You are mightly mistaken, the letter to Bill Clinton was sent on 26th January 1998, within the following 11 months UNSCOM/IAEA Inspectors were withdrawn from Iraq and Bill Clinton initiated the bombing campaign normally referred to as "Desert Fox" - or do you think there were other reasons for him doing this?

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: DougR
Date: 15 Jan 04 - 10:29 PM

I am reading this "vile" book at the very moment. So far, I see nothing what-so-ever that could be considered a "manefesto." I think, were mudcatters read it, rather than just criticizing it without reading it, they might find some very interesting information.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Jan 04 - 11:28 PM

Tell you what, DougR, I'll continue to read it and others like it if you, in turn, read and digest some books we recommend. There's a whole library of them that could do you a world of good.

Like a good many Mudcatters, I expect, I do check out books from the library (danged if I'll buy them, though) written by people with views opposing mine and I read them carefully. And I also listen to a number of very strange people on TV that I would not have in my home otherwise. One of the people, however, that I do not watch on television is the current president Bush. I much prefer to read his speeches, because his body language and other mannerisms is so distasteful to me.

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jan 04 - 12:36 AM

I read the Project For a New American Century manifesto and it scared the shit out of me. Is this "book" significantly different than that paper?

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jan 04 - 02:53 PM

Nope. Same people, same stuff.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: DougR
Date: 16 Jan 04 - 06:03 PM

Don: Have you read the book in question?

Ebbie: I do not read books that only present my POV. What would you like me to read that supports your POV? Only one book please. I'm sure you can recommend one that covers your views, right? If I can get it at the libary, I will read it. I won't buy one though for obvious reasons.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jan 04 - 11:27 PM

No, Doug, I have not read this particular book, yet. I will read it, however. I rarely buy books of a political nature such as this because they don't have lasting value. Nor have I purchased What Liberal Media? The Truth about Bias and the News by Eric Alterman which I got from the library and am reading now. My wife, Barbara, works at the Seattle Public Library and I asked her to pick it up the Perle/Frum book for me. She checked, and although the library has it on order, it hasn't arrived yet, so she put a hold on it for me. I am 25th on the list, but it shouldn't be too long, because being a large library, they often order multiple copies.

However, I have read about a dozen reviews of it, both pro and con. I have heard Richard Perle speak and have read a number of his articles, so I have a pretty good idea of where he's coming from; and of course, I've heard examples of David Frum's prose in Bush's earlier speeches. As I say, I will read the book when it becomes available.

Here are a few books you might find interesting to peruse. More than one, but feel free to can pick and choose. You may find any one of them disturbing and distasteful, but I'm pretty sure that if you don't just dismiss them out of hand, they'll provide you some food for thought:—

American Dynasty: Aristocracy, Fortune, and the Politics of Deceit in the House of Bush by Kevin P. Phillips;
Evil in Modern Thought: an Alternative History of Philosophy by Susan Neiman;
Reaganism and the Death of Representative Democracy by Walter Williams.
The Soul of Capitalism: Opening Paths to a Moral Economy by William Greider;
and
The Two Percent Solution: Fixing America's Problems in Ways Liberals and Conservatives Can Love by Matthew Miller.

You might also want to re-read The Conscience of a Conservative by Barry Goldwater and ask yourself as you read, what would the late Senator think of the current administration and its policies?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Jan 04 - 03:14 PM

I had forgotten about 'Conscience of a Conservative', Don Firth. That would be a great place for DougR to start.

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 17 Jan 04 - 07:13 PM

Guest, the first Bush did negotiate with Saddam. He put him in power. Under certain US administrations as they did with Latin American dictators such as Noriega, negotiations occur all the time.
Negotiations go on with Khadaffi regardless of his past behavior.

It was ironic that the first words out of a captured Saddam's mouth was "let's negotiate." Why did he say that? Because it was done before.

CarolC, where did Saddam get all those WMD's? He didn't have
the means to produce them. And guess what, the UN inspectors got in
there and destroyed them all. That's why you can't find them in Iraq today. The inspectors were successful and they did contain Saddam.
(And as a footnote, Khadaffi was also contained.)

Guest, negotiations are made when there is no other option left short of killing. The madness comes when negotiations break down. No win-win left. The theme of this thread is constant. There is a Right-Wing plan to dispense with negotiations that are unfavorable to the Bush Administration and to employ bogus pre-emptive strikes instead. This is madness. It is causing havoc in Iraq and Afghanistan and like a disease could spread to Syria and Korea. It's almost a James Bond-like villain saying, "Today, Iraq, tomorrow the world!"

And now the Bush Administration has the gall to go hat in hand to the
UN and say "We made this mess, now help us out." (Not a direct quote but the implication is clear.) And the UN believes in negotiations
so they will.

The Shi'ites want their form of democracy in Iraq and Bush wants his.
How they "negotiate" this will be interesting to see.

Meanwhile, Al Queda under the negligence of the Bush Administration
grows stronger and multiplies like extensive cells over the world.
And Ashcroft has another code yellow or orange and Bush says "Go shopping and fly".

"Our faith cries out, we have no fear.
We dare to reach our hand
To other neighbors far and near
To friends in every land"..................if only.

Isn't this a time.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: 'And once again, the madmen come. . . .'
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jan 04 - 08:00 PM

CarolC, where did Saddam get all those WMD's? He didn't have the means to produce them. And guess what, the UN inspectors got in there and destroyed them all. That's why you can't find them in Iraq today. The inspectors were successful and they did contain Saddam.

Yer preachin' to the choir there, Frank.

;-)