BS: I am not perfect after all

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: GUEST,Musket getting bored now
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 04:02 PM

There is a difference between being civil and playing a straight bat.

Judges have to play a straight bat.

The rest of us are free to leave people in no doubt how odious and damaging their views are to society at large.

This is about real lives of real people. I could weep at times in my work these days, and knowing scum is out there wanting to make healthcare harder to achieve its goals. .. I am fed up of people not turning up for medicine review of antiretrovirals due to the stigma attached to seeing that particular consultant physician on that day and thinking the whole city knows what that day is. . Or GU medical clinics in general having to find new ways of running their service discreetly.

If the likes of Akenaton didn't bother breathing, the issue he loves to highlight would be less problematical to work on.



Do you think I was being reasonable and being nice? I certainly do. I think I am being rather restrained, don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 05:22 PM

Ian ....I'm sorry to have to tell you that you are such a failure in your chosen profession.

It is the very "discretion" that you are so proud off that ensures homosexuals continue to develop this disease.

The "carrot" has not worked, there is much less stigma and discrimination today than there was twenty years ago...and much more disease.
People must be made to understand that these infection rates cannot be allowed to continue and increase.
Time has come for the "stick".....which does not mean criminalisation...or execution....but compulsory contact tracing and testing of male homosexuals.
This of course would be contrary to your agenda of "equality", and I'm sure you would be against such a course of action.....It could be argued that your attitude contributes to the spread of this disease and condemns many young men to a life sentence of ill health, but I don't wish for you to stop breathing because of it.......you are just wrong, not particularly evil.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Jul 13 - 09:49 PM

Telling someone to "Fuck off!" doesn't strengthen your argument. It doesn't make you seem smarter. It does not elevate the conversation. It makes the speaker look weak, lazy stupid lazy and crude. If that is how you want to be perceived that is your choice.

Like akenaton, I am concerned about HIV infection. But I don't think it has anything more to do with gay marriage than with straight marriage.


akenaton's opinions will hve no effect on your work. Abusing him helps no one. You surly do not come across as a responsible health professional when you talk the way you do here.

Wishing him dead is worse than telling him to F-off. In fact the way you phrased it he would just end up in someone's emergency room/

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 12:26 AM

Sounds likwMudcat!!! Forum!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 03:05 AM

Goofus. I've put some toys in the corner. Kindly go and play with them. I wouldn't wish you to hear grown ups swearing.

Jack. You will be aware that delivery of health care in any responsible society is non judgemental and non discriminatory. I would love not to get involved in health care debate on these threads being too close to delivery of it, but being non clinical, I doubt my contribution can be seen as representative. After all, the key objective I work to is controlling logistics in improvement. LEAN, six sigma etc. As a retired CEO in manufacturing, coupled with chairing NHS bodies, that is my small contribution. Hence I do see the issues as an outsider. I do get frustrated reading bilge water, and Akenaton is only a miniscule part of it. Media and politics raise similar issues.

I only know that removing stigma for sections of society is the first step to inclusive health and social care.

If shouting down bigotry helps inform that debate, pass me my megaphone.

To permit is to promote. I don't see many disagreeing with the broad thrust of my stance yet neither do I see Akenaton tackled, with a few honourable exceptions. He takes respectability as tacit agreement you know...

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 03:55 AM

Trying to eradicate an epidemic in a section of society is not "stigmatisation" Ian.

I repeat, there is little discrimination or stigma towards homosexuals today compared with twenty years ago, yet infection rates are rocketing....up 21% in one year in London....from an already very high percentage.
This IS an epidemic and homosexuals are not listening to the half hearted "education and advice" handed out by the agencies.

The latest wheez thought up to accomodate the "equality agenda" was to compulsorily test all residents in given areas, but targetting areas where "at risk" groups may be situated.

There is only one REAL "at risk" group....male homosexuals, even amongst hetero IDU's, rates of hiv infection are falling.

While health professionals continue to bury their heads in the sand and attempt to find spurious reasons for the rising epidemic, there is no hope of beating it.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 04:22 AM

Musket..a typical wannabe liberal...planning everybody's agenda, whether they like it or not..the video must have hit too close to home!

Hi Ake!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 04:40 AM

Hi Sanity...Video hit the mark, spot on.

Ian is right that not many here disagree with him...its just that most have the sense not to try to support the unsupportable out in the open.

Unfortunately its going to take much more infection and ruined lives before he is prepared to accept the inevitable?

Keep well.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 04:54 AM

Yeah, planning everybody's agenda..

ZZZZZZ

Bloody hell Goofus. When I told you to play with the toys, I was being sarcastic. Seems I was closer to the mark than I thought...

Akenaton.

No wheezes, no social engineering, just attempts at root cause epidemiology in public health. Making sex illegal has the same impact as making hate comments illegal. It doesn't influence those who it is targeted at, so no solution. In the meantime, healthcare has to deal with the effects of stigma, the effects of ignorance, the effects of hard to reach groups, the effects of attempts to divide society, the effects of you and those who are suspicious of difference, sceptical of inclusiveness and ready to use terms of scorn such as "liberal" as the root of all evil.

Just think, 80 years ago, people like you had elements of society to blame throughout Europe. You'd have been in your bloody element. You could wear your Aryan credentials with pride. For a while...

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 05:06 AM

Who wants to make sex illegal?

When I was in hospital some years ago I picked up an HAI (mrsa)
I was put into isolation, staff, were gowned, restricted visits etc.
I did not look on this as "inequality", I was worried that the infection might be spread to older patients.

It transpired later that several wards had been infected for months and the whole affair had been hushed up.

So much for "rooting out epidemiology in public health."

Akenaton(still breathing) :0)

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 06:13 AM

"Root cause epidemiology in public health"

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 06:44 AM

Musket,

When has shouting someone down ever worked?

At Ake is winning this argument just by not shouting back. He appears to be the grownup, the reasonable person because reasonable people don't try to win an argument by cursing.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 07:13 AM

"You could wear your Aryan credentials with pride. For a while... "

I think you already mentioned "Godwins Law" somewhere above Ian. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 09:03 AM

Yeah, reasonable quiet hatred beats shouty decency eh?

There is no argument to win. There is no case for bigotry. There is no case for second class citizens. The UK is a democracy, so every adult is a shareholder, every adult is equal. Only transgressing the law or sectioning under The mental Health Act is an exception.

So. Debate politics? Sure. Debate healthcare? Sure. Debate denial of stakeholder? Sorry, I cannot do that. I value living in a democracy, so such debate is a non starter.

Shouting down does work by the way Jack. When all else fails, when weak minded politicians see votes in fear and bigotry, shouting is the only tool left.




What public health as to do with you getting an MRSA bactaraemia is beyond me. I don't know about the Scottish situation, but having spent three years recently in infection control nationally in England, albeit specialising on board to ward governance and accountability, I do know that prior to 2006, it wasn't being picked up sufficiently, and the whole industry was blase over precautions. Since 2007/8, rates of bactaraemia have fallen to the pojnt where, for example, the hospital trust where my office situated, with just over a million coming through the door each year, has none this year to date. The trajectory for the year is 8. Compare that to 2005, where half a dozen a month were common place.

What is heartening is that isolation side rooms are becoming less necessary, allowing them to be prioritised for Clostridium Difficile and other aerosol conditions. Good barrier nursing, hand hygiene, reductions in surgical site infections through introduction of laminar flow in theatre and many other safeguards becoming business as usual have led to sharp reductions.

Yes, figures didn't used to reflect reality and yes, sadly, MRSA wasn't factored into primary or secondary morbidity figures, but whole wards infected for months and a cover up?

Bollocks.

MRSA per se isn't an issue. A third of the population carries it. Getting into the blood stream (bactaraemia) makes a poorly person very very poorly. Whole wards, and months are fantasy. The coroner would have picked a cluster up within a couple of weeks. It is that deadly for otherwise compromised sick elderly people. Those of us far more fit can have unfortunate side effects, and apart from addling your brain, you seem to have come out of it OK. Mind you, you shouldn't have had to in the first place. Bactaraemia is preventable, luckily The NHS now realises that and HCAI control in general has been a success story over the last few years. It had to improve, the situation was embarrassingly shocking.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 12:19 PM

The hospital was filthy. I turned over a shower mat that had 5mm of hair and shit beneath it, tide marks on the bath I was encouraged to use after a very big hernia operation,excrement on toilet walls never cleaned in the three weeks i was in surgical ward, drain inserted when wound turned septic and no one available to change the bag when it filled with fluid, had to change dressing myself, no nurses on duty.
Bag became full and burst spilling fluid over ward floor...never cleaned till the day I left.
Anyone who complained treated as a pariah, one gentleman complained daily about general lack of cleanliness, nurses mounted a hate campaign informing all new admissions that he was "a troublemaker"

This was no "fantasy", when I became upset about the risk to older patients, some with amputations, the staff nurse took me aside and said "dont worry there are two wards full of it, it's been like that for months ,you probably caught it from one of the "old team".

It was covered up just as the reasons for increased hiv infection are covered up by the agencies....."stigma and discrimination"...Double bollox, its about the extremely promiscuous behaviour which is associated with male to male sexual intercourse and the methods used.
No one wanted to question the failings of the hospital administrators and now no one wants to question the "equality" agenda

"Make sex illegal", what a stupid remark, I suppose it was another of your little "in" jokes, but when sexually transmitted diseases reach epidemic proportions in one tiny sector of the community, questions require to be asked and solutions sought.

Contact tracing and compulsory testing for MSM seems a sensible start to finding a solution, or would you rather look the other way and pretend that all is well in LaLa Land?

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 12:26 PM

"Shouty decency"

What is decent about suggesting that it would be better if a fellow member of this forum "stopped breathing"?

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 12:30 PM

We are all adults and opinions expressed here have nearly zero effect outside this forum. There is no good reason to shout and curse here. But doing so undermines ones credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 02:28 PM

No it doesn't.

Acquiescence doesn't lead to sustainable outcomes. Debate does. Debate starts when the rights of all are a given. Akenaton refers to the hypocrisy trap I laid regarding breathing. I rest my case. I respect him when he respects others.

A loving relationship leading to marriage doesn't increase STDs. Stigmatising does. More published papers on that than you could wave a Shitty stick at.

Other matters. Your filthy hospital was not acceptable. As sn inspector for a few years I saw things that would make your hair curl. No excuses and the only thing I feel content About is being able to effect regime change where we found fault and being a catalyst to improving the patient experience. Mind you, I used to inspect private hospitals too. They have walked a similar improvement path, albeit without media fanfare. Don't think chintzy curtains and air fresheners lead automatically to good care.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 04:16 PM

" Debate does."

Telling someone to F-Off is not debate.

Was there a logic course in all of your higher education?

How about psychology? Organizational behavior? Maslow's theory? Dale Carnegie?

You can catch more flies with honey....

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 04:49 PM

"A loving relationship leading to marriage doesn't increase STDs. Stigmatising does. More published papers on that than you could wave a Shitty stick at."

Oh! so how do you explain the record rates of all sexually transmitted disease amongst male homosexuals, when stigma and discrimination is at an all time low, Civil Union for homosexuals has been made law and homosexual "marriage" is almost on the statute book?........Your theory does not make sense.

I have never said that homosexual marriage would increase sexual disease...that would not make sense either, but neither does it address the problem of the epidemic.

I have always contended that homosexual "marriage" is a divisive smoke screen.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 05:08 PM

It is promiscuity and failure to practice "safe sex" that leads to an increase in STDs.

And what leads to promiscuity? Well, many things do. One thing that appears fairly obvious is that the average man is more inclined toward being promiscuous (having casual sex) than the average woman is...given that women are on average more inclined to look for an emotionally satisfying relationship that provides some longevity and security. (Yes, I realize there are individual exceptions to that, but I'm talking about averages here.)

Therefore, it doesn't surprise me that male homosexuals are more inclined to have many different partners than, for instance, lesbians are...and that male homosexuals are therefore (on average) at greater risk of acquiring and spreading STDs. Also...how many of them bother to practice safe sex (using a condom) when they obviously aren't worried about getting their male partners pregnant?

I don't feel that this has any particular bearing one way or the other on a debate about the merits of gay marriage. It does have bearing on a debate about public health issues, however.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 06:40 PM

True LH.

What's sad is male hard wiring for promiscuity, gay or heterosexual.

What's beyond the pail is exploiting it for the hatred that has been demonstrated on many threads. The smokescreen of concern has been blown out of the water so many times.

Jack. The argument "fuck off" is strong, non hypocritical and genuine. It portrays a position that leaves the other in no doubt as to your view.   Billy Connolly once said that you never read the phrase "Fuck off, he hinted."

I don't wish to catch flies. I wish to swat them. Debasing the important public health issue by being judgemental doesn't help so unless you feel you can alter entrenched positions there is no use in debate. I very much doubt I shall reach a position of "Hey, you know? Bigotry might be the answer after all. "

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 13 - 07:03 PM

Why do you never make any attempt to answer a question Ian?

Nature always has a way of getting its own back on humanity

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 02:53 AM

And some feel they need to give nature a prod.

What questions are you referring to? The ones any sane person would treat with contempt bear no further scrutiny in case debate somehow gives them credence. The others I have tried to give a perspective. I am as angry over your experience of sloppy infection control as I am elsewhere and hopefully gave an overview of slow but sure improvement as I saw it. The conspiracy theory you offered up is far more difficult to go along with. False reporting on clinical matters is a grave charge and the two Mid Staffs nurses who have been struck off this week were for far less crimes than the ones you inferred. False reporting can be genuine but false flag and false analysis can be bad but without malicious intent.

As you and others revel in quoting my name at any opportunity, I don't have the luxury of sensationalism when applied to healthcare so I cannot give credence to conspiracy theory any more than ignoring comments that address real issues in public health that seek to exacerbate the issue.

Anything else whilst I am here?

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 05:11 AM

I cant expect you to do anything about my experiences in hospital Ian, nor do I expect you to answer for them.
You continually say that the huge increases in hiv infection amongst male homosexuals are down to "stigma and discrimination" while it seems obvious that "stigma and discrimination" has decreased significantly over the last decade.
Civil union has been available for some time for those who want to pracice monogamy....one does not need to be "married" to be monogamous...but the take up rates are miniscule.

Are you prepared to concede that the extreme promiscuity which seems endemic to male homosexuality, has some relationship to the ever rising infection rates?

My point is that there are massive health problems associated with male to male sex, which need to be addressed in a serious manner.

Issues like "gay marriage" do not allieviate the situation, but are simply a sideshow to divert attention from the real health problems....not for the betterment of homosexuals, but to protect the "liberal agenda".
It seems to me, that this is the reason you try to shift the blame for homosexual health problems away from risky and dangerous behaviour, to almost non-existant "stigma and discrimination"

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: GUEST,Musket sans hate
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 05:35 AM

Your blinkered views make you fail to see that I am aware of rises, aware of successes and failures in attempts to address them and in a position to have been involved in weighing up the evidence and trying to find a way forward.

Enforced screening based on judgement of lifestyle is a non starter so no point in debating it. It drives further underground. Many people attend GUM voluntarily for screening already, hence helping the validity of the statistics.

So we are left with education, inclusion and outreach. None of which would be useful if your remedies were tried. My concern is that some politicians listen to such dangerous bilge water. If I thought you unintelligent I wouldn't acknowledge you. I feel you are either misguided and compounding it or not a nice person to begin with. Fucked if I know which. But you aren't helping with your observations. Promoting monogamy and normalising lifestyle are key planks of the attempts to tackle lifestyle contracted STDs. Your failure to do anything other than call it distraction serves only to question your real agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 05:56 AM

"Debasing the important public health issue by being judgemental doesn't help so unless you feel you can alter entrenched positions there is no use in debate. I very much doubt I shall reach a position of "Hey, you know? Bigotry might be the answer after all. "


I have suggested that the homosexual health figures will be affected positively by compulsory hiv testing and contact tracing.
This situation is already being hinted at by both health agencies, if infection rates continue to worsen......how does that make me a bigot?

In reference to my stay in hospital....I was put into isolation and had visits restricted to safeguard other patients....I never considered it discrimination......often the common good overides individual rights?

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 06:18 AM

What are you going to do if your policy of "Education, Inclusion and Outreach" continues to fail so dismally? (please answer as failure to do so will expose your position.)

Will any other procedure be regarded as "bigotry"?

Were the Cubans wrong to impliment a policy of isolation, compulsory testing and contact tracing to almost irradicate aids in Cuba, while the epidemic continues to this day in countries which believe in "Education, Inclusion, and Outreach"?

Does your agenda mean more to you than a serious attempt to cut homosexual infection rates?

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: Musket
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 07:57 AM

You mentioned the stigma of isolation rooms, not me. I merely informed you that as we understand contact infections better and trust clinical staff to use barrier techniques, isolation becomes less necessary, freeing up room for aerosol infections. You said you didn't feel it discriminatory. I agreed. Pillock.

Contact tracing is carried out on a voluntary basis already. Making it compulsory can only serve to make it less common than it is now. The only time it becomes less than voluntary is when infecting someone as part of what is deemed criminal assault, (unprotected sex knowing you have an infection and failing to warn a partner) and the police reserve the right to investigate for victims. Experience shows that appealing for people to come forward is more successful before the police are involved.

Your idea works in police states such as Cuba as every health initiative is compulsory, hence no extra reason to keep away from the authorities. Their pick up rate is nowhere near their claim, according to WHO.

Failing to answer your questions exposes nothing. You haven't even asked a question that can be answered. If you had, any decent person would have to chisel out your agenda before finding an objective question behind it.

Bigotry isn't in any procedure. it is however in the forefront of your crusade.

I have tried reasoning with you and on that if nothing else, I have failed.

Back in your hole worm.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 09:10 AM

The approach to HIV control here has tended to be PSAs for voluntary testing, free testing for the poor and highly publicized prosecution for those who knowingly pass on the infection. Mandatory screening by profile or otherwise is a no go in democracies that take civil rights seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: GUEST,Musket agreeing
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 10:12 AM

Thank you. Here also.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 11:24 AM

So, I'll take it that is a YES.. NO..MAYBE then?

Yes Jack, I know what the procedure is, but I was asking Ian, if that procedure is patently not work as in the UK at present, how long should we allow infections to increase and to what levels, before we make testing and contact tracing mandatory for "at risk" groups?

Human rights are less important than death, or a life sentence of disease?

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 11:43 AM

Musket: "What's sad is male hard wiring for promiscuity, gay or heterosexual."

..and after GENERATIONS, of what works, and what doesn't, in regards to the 'will to survive and reproduce' healthily, which ALL living beings on the planet have in common, mankind has boiled it down to a sense of structure, which gives us the freedom to keep going....they call it morals...and those morals trump promiscuity.
Just a simple fact, by definition.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: GUEST,Musket getting Pissed off now
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 12:02 PM

When you preface a question with a false assumption there is no answer till you drop said false assumption.





Goofus. Male promiscuity is, to my knowledge as hard wired for continuity as altruism is also. Morals stem from the latter apparently. It seems logical to me. Not an expert though. But if I am typical I certainly believed in try before you buy when I was single. Just like almost everybody else. Most religious abstention is based on resisting temptation, or so I am led to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 12:28 PM

"Human rights are less important than death, or a life sentence of disease? "

It looks like the UK already has HIV testing for new admissions to hospitals and GPs are testing in "high risk areas."

Other than looking for stylishly dressed young men and dragging them in off the street or canvassing design and hair studios, there doesn't seem to be much else to be done.



HPA- HIV

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 12:39 PM

Musket, Ake, Do you two remember what you are fighting about. Because, other than the issue of Gay Marriage, which has been legally settled in the UK, and other than that each of you is trying to say the other is a wanker or tosser or whatever, there doesn't see to be much daylight between your positions.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: GUEST,Musket being patriotic
Date: 27 Jul 13 - 02:38 PM

I don't have a position. You have linked to the facts I have tried to put out.

I tried to reason with him. I even took you up on the offer of not being shouty but you know what?

You can't educate pork. Akenaton is convinced secondhand citizens would be the answer to his irrational fear of anybody different. No idea how he leaves the house because there are few as bitter and twisted as he is.

This thread is about ear wax. He hijacked it with bigotry and you and your mates weighed in with Jesus.

Then you wonder why I laugh in people's faces? (Metaphorically speaking. .)

This trying to reason is boring. My thread my rules.

Fuck him.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 06:56 AM

I hear you Jack, But surely the point , Something will HAVE to be done!.....The present procedures are not working.

A 21% increase in MSM hiv infection rates in London between 2011 and 2012... and annual rises in the UK of 10% amongst MSM, simply cannot be allowed to contiue.   To say just carry on with a status quo which is patently useless, is not an option in a civilised society


Regarding Ian, I do not verbally abuse him, wish him dead,or use childish names. The most I have said about him personally is that he is a most "unpleasant fellow" to debate with, but I suppose other less civilised forums are full of such people and we should count ourselves lucky.

The worrying aspect is that someone as agenda driven as Ian, at some stage, appears to have had a position of some authority in our health services. I would like to see our health officials more concerned with saving lives and reducing disease, than furthuring their own socio/political ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 07:56 AM

Incidentally...I did not highjack this thread, this was the first reference to homosexuals....by Ian himself!

"The best thing about greyhounds is that they are non judgemental. He even goes up to gay people for a fuss.   I take it yours do too Akenaton?"

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 09:20 AM

Unlike you I don't have philosophy or other political twaddle to worry about. I like many others plan the logistics for health care to be delivered. No fear, no favour, no judgement. No one in health care would nor indeed could deliver your suggestions.

I was I suppose fairly senior in Dept of Health years ago but now as a director of an NHS trust, I get fed up of having to factor ignorance and ideology of others when planning health care. Not an easy balance but idiots like you don't help.

No you don't hear what Jack is saying. Whenever those you don't like say it, your vicious streak comes through. Nobody wishes you dead so stop this victim complex. It fools no one. Your wish for gay people to be dealt with is bad enough. As I said, I tried to debate with you and failed.

You are beyond decency.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 10:43 AM

You did not try to debate, as you have no answers to my questions or cohesive argument to use in debate.

This "discussion"(over the last few days), is about the best way to cut death and infection rates amonst homosexuals, these rates must be cut...they are too horrific to be allowed to continue.
The procedures you support, "Education, Inclusion and Outreach"(psychobabble), have been tried for ten years and have failed miserably.....if you can't see that, then you should never have been in your job.
You admit,reluctantly, that males are naturally programmed for procreation, yet deny that male to male sex has the capacity to be very dangerous and unhealthy.
Do you really think that young homosexuals are in a position to regulate themselves?....The facts say otherwise.

When an epidemic is in process, the most important thing is to bring it under control.....Socio-ideology comes a poor second.

I've just thought of a new word that you may find handy as a term of abuse......."Ideologue"

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 10:51 AM

"This thread is about ear wax. He hijacked it with bigotry and you and your mates weighed in with Jesus."

Can't speak for Jack, but I wrongly assumed that there was a little more in your head rhan earwax.....apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 11:11 AM

iMusket,

This thread for most of us is whether or not you are perfect. See the title.

Akenaton, We have all acknowledged that HIV is a problem. We have all discussed and generally agreed about what is being done.

As far as what can be done. What you seem to be proposing seems impossible short of detention camps to protect your men from their own nature. Keep in mind that HIV is not the only risk arising from the recklessness of young men. Drunk driving, speeding, risky recreation, illicit drug use and violent crime are all highest among young men.

"Education, Inclusion and Outreach" worked for MOST kids my age when I was growing up. It is the only feasible approach available now.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 01:13 PM

Yes Jack, but for most of the risky examples you post there are extreme legal penalties and the removal of "rights", like the right to hold a driving licence......

I am not advocating isolation, simply compulsory testing(every three months?) and compulsory contact tracing for major "At risk" groups.

The option of doing nothing, does not seem to make sense given the increasing rates of new infections within MSM.

Current procedure relies on male homosexuals volunteering to be tested, with no compulsion to release the names of contacts if they test positive.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 01:18 PM

Penalties are not a problem for HIV. There are no legal penalties more severe than contracting a terminal disease.


Ake you are right to be concerned but the "solutions" you suggest are unworkable.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: Musket
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 01:37 PM

Unworkable.

That's the nice term we use when placating right wing politicians.

Occasionally, we smile when our doctors are put on the spot. One of our GU medicine guys told a local MP to drop his trousers and see how he felt when accessing the services.

No. I am diplomatic, believe me. Doesn't mean I suffer fools gladly though.

I love Mudcat because listening to the diveristy of views on many subjects, mainly musical ones but others too, I am delighted when my opinion changes after reflection on debate.

That's why the likes of Akenaton poison respectable debate. it isn't jus that he has an opinon on gay health, he has repeatedly stated his opinion on gay lifestyle, gay marriage and pours scorn on anybody who disagrees with him as being "liberal."

It's usually American GOP tea party types who use "liberal" as an insult. To hear it over here says all you need to know about the man.

By the way, the post was about ear wax. I know that you have gone native in the deep south, but self deprecation and irony shouldn't be too far from being recognised by you. Your first contribution was about ear wax, your second contribution was about my dog. Neither contribution useful, but there you go.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 03:27 PM

"That's why the likes of Akenaton poison respectable debate. it isn't jus that he has an opinon on gay health, he has repeatedly stated his opinion on gay lifestyle, gay marriage and pours scorn on anybody who disagrees with him as being "liberal."



Ian... are you really naive enough to think Homosexual health issues are not affected by homosexual lifestyle?

Respectable debate?...you dont debate, you have never answered any of the questions which I have asked, your contributions consist of undiluted abuse,

My opinion on male homosexuality is that as long as infection rates for all sexual disease remain at epidemic proportions and rising, it must be viewed as a highly dangerous and unhealthy lifestyle.
Millions share that view....To state that view is neither hateful criminal nor bigoted.

To remain silent on this issue is cowardly and cruel.
The really important thing is to bring the epidemic under control...do you have any ideas on how this is to be acheived...as an antidote to "Education, inclusion, and outreach"?

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 05:30 PM

A few million despicable views amplify the despicable view s few million fold.

Ask me a question that can be answered and I answer it. Prefacing it by saying something isn't working with no knowledge of how it works is not worthy of recognition.

Still breathing? Just wondered, considering you reckon I want you to stop. No. Im pragmatic. I'd rather you stop typing. The breathing bit that you have been repeating around the threads was as you were told to ask you how it felt to be hated. Not nice is it?

Well stop hating.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 06:05 PM

"If the likes of Akenaton didn't bother breathing, the issue he loves to highlight would be less problematical to work on."

That can only mean one thing...no irony...no hypocrisy.
No one is working on solving the problem, everyone is busy papering over the cracks.

Still no answers Ian, seems that there is nothing in the armoury?
If you have nothing but a wish to stop me typing or intimidate me into not putting forward my point of view, your "argument" must be very weak indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: I am not perfect after all
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 13 - 06:41 PM

400th post. Now that is perfection!