BS: Trump again

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 03:52 PM

more oversimplified US politics:


The rich party is obviously outnumbered by the poor so they had to coddle a base that would be loyal to them. They decided to be the religion and patriot party to the masses while keeping a grip on their monopolies and corporate welfare policies.

The poor party is portrayed as godless lazy takers by the rich party

A rich party TV network was started and radio conservative spokesmen kept up a steady drumbeat against the poor party..

As the parties have become more strident, acerbic and out right hateful of one another since Gingrich introduced obstructionist politics, a breakaway Tea Party of no nothing reactionaries were funded by the Koch bros for Congressional seats.

Now out of control critics of all government has their hero in Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 05:18 PM

Who exactly is the "Poor Party" Don?

The Clinton campaign has three times as much money to spend as the Trump campaign and most of it comes from rich bankers and corporations.......they will expect their dividends.

As far as I can see there is no Rich and Poor Parties.....just Rich and Richer.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 07:03 PM

That's right, Ake - Trump, the Great Socialist Hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Aug 16 - 10:14 PM

Trump again

This thread is about Trump - his strengths, his weaknesses, his absurd statements. How difficult is that to understand?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 02:52 AM

The only reason Mr Trump's name is even mentioned on these pages is that he is a candidate for President of the US.....it is impossible to have a discussion discussing or insulting Mr Trump outwith that context.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 04:09 AM

After the race-baiting and buffoonish, blatantly unpresidential behavior the most disturbing and inhumane aspect of Trump's inept campaign is his hollow promise to bring back manufacturing jobs to rust belt states that had been made obsolete by automation and more efficient methods of production before NAFTA was even enacted. He's given his followers in those areas a false hope of regaining jobs that are never coming back.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 04:44 AM

Normally, one would think that it would be able to carry on an intelligent discussion of the pros and cons of the candidates in an election. One might expect some on one side to make weird accusations against the other candidate, but such accusations can be safely ignored.

But this time, there is one candidate who really is as weird as people say he is. And since people point out his oddities and expect to believe, there arises the belief that the accusations against the other candidate must be valid, too.

Who in his right mind could believe the barrage of accusations flying in the current Presidential race? Well, I do believe most of what is said against Trump. So, I suppose, why shouldn't others believe what is said against Clinton?

It's a crazy contest this year.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 05:09 AM

Many here maintain that Mr Trump is unfit for office due to his lack of experience in politics or Foreign affairs, they think electors votes should go to Mrs Clinton, but this argument does not stack up.

Acme says "It was horrifying that Bush started a war in Iraq, and wretched to see how anyone who opposed it was immediately pounced upon as unpatriotic if they didn't get behind Baby Bush right after 9-11. Cheney lied. Many people were fooled.".....Well I was not fooled and neither were the 500,000 citizens of Glasgow who marched against Mr Bush's war.....or the 1000,000 who marched in London.

Why then was the other candidate for the coming election so easily fooled......it says little for her political acumen that she supported an obvious wrong, and repeated the mistake twice subsequently?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stu
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 06:50 AM

I think it's fair to maintain Trump is unfit for office due to his past actions. This man would be responsible for sending people into war, asking them to lay down their lives and their relatives to suffer this loss. He is way too reactionary, impetuous and petulant to be entrusted with this incredibly important responsibility.

Trump does't care for people, is cruel and vindictive towards them when they disagree with him and above all is a demagogue; I doubt he really cares what anyone thinks as long as they vote for him.

He is utterly bereft of any personal or professional integrity.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: mkebenn
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 08:44 AM

Can't this all be over? Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 08:52 AM

Trump's veiled threats against Clinton's life are disturbing, and the trouble is I wouldn't put it past an NRA nutter to put his suggestion in action. Maybe it would be for the best for Clinton and the Democratic party to pull out of the presidency, and give America a chance to learn something from giving Trump unfettered power.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 09:43 AM

"Who in their right mind could believe all these accusations"

The extreme right minds.

It only takes one to obey Trump's threats.

We are still living in an H.G. Wells future of automated war by air, land, sea and space. A nation of science and government against shot gun hoards with more in common with the Taliban than they could bear to believe.

The irony that the Republican party nourished a base that will destroy them simply because they needed numbers to balance the unequal distribution between rich constituents against the poor, is not lost on anyone anymore.

I will leave this line of reasoning here and not prophesize further Mr. Wells.


Now for something completely different;

As shown on the Daily show, the next time you see Donald watch as though he is a struggling stand up comic. Keep your eyes on his hands
gesticulate the jokes. It is entertainment for sure but with th potential for dire consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 10:52 AM

the most disturbing and inhumane aspect of Trump's inept campaign...

Almost. But the REALLY worst aspect of Trump's campaign are the millions of imbeciles that believe his utter bullshit.

why shouldn't others believe what is said against Clinton?

Perhaps because while the things said about Trump are in 95% of the time TRUE and documented and provable, while a similar percentage of the things said against Clinton are blatant lies & BS and are easily proved as such?

Of course, one needs to possess at least minimal intelligence to make that distinction. Therein lies the problem.

Why then was the other candidate for the coming election so easily fooled

Read And Learn, Ake

Read And Learn

[Trump] is entertainment for sure

More like black comedy.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 10:55 AM

Once again, Ake, your almost total ignorance of the actual situation is showing. And you have it backwards, again, into the bargain.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 12:34 PM

Well I've read it Greg, but when does the learning kick in?
A typical whitewash job by a nonentity hack who doesn't seem to have any provenance whatsoever. A "human rights activist" and flag waver for the Democrats......If you are going to link, link to something worth reading, not sycophantic tosh.

The gist of it was that Mrs Clinton made a mistake, .....which she regretted....then went ahead and made the same mistake in Libya, then Syria!!!.......well who would have believed it? What a strange set of coincidences.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 01:10 PM

the most disturbing and inhumane aspect of Trump's inept campaign is his hollow promise to bring back manufacturing jobs to rust belt states that had been made obsolete by automation and more efficient methods of production before NAFTA was even enacted. He's given his followers in those areas a false hope of regaining jobs that are never coming back.

The jobs, or equivalent jobs, could indeed come back. Most of them are still being done, but relocated to places where wage costs are dramatically lower. Reestablishing manufacturing industry would need some way of addressing that. High tariffs has been the historic way, but that backfires badly, hefty wage subsidies is another - but that means high taxes, while of course Trump promises tax cuts, especially for the rich of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 01:23 PM

As for Iraq, Donald Trump only indicated any doubts about the war until well after it had started and ground into the sand.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 02:06 PM

A typical whitewash job by a nonentity hack......

Well, Ake, ya can't teach a pig to sin nor can you educate stupid. May you revel in your abysmal ignorance and seemingly inexhaustable store of misinformation from here on out, without (at least major) interference from me.

As for Iraq, Donald Trump only indicated any doubts about the war until well after it had started and ground into the sand.

Don't waste your time confusing Ake with the facts, Kevin.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 03:41 PM

The jobs that Trump is promising to restore don't exist anymore in significant numbers. Manufacturing jobs are even on the decline in Asia, losing out to improving robotic production techniques. The days when you can walk out of high school and get a good paying job in a factory, coal mine or steel mill in America are over but Trump is still trying to sell his bill of goods to these folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: keberoxu
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 03:46 PM

"teach a pig to sin..."

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 03:57 PM

Come on Greg, don't get huffy, I admire your straight talking and your sincerity....I just don't have much faith in the writer of that particular article.....no reflection on you or your views.

I do agree with Mr McGrath that jobs must come back, if not we are truly shafted.......but we need to change our motivations and start to live less wasteful lives. This applies not only to the US, but to all developed Western economies.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 05:23 PM

I just don't have much faith in the writer of that particular article.

OK, Ake, I'll break my promise in liew of your latest nonsense:

1. There were TWO articles "clickified", not one.

2. Of the authors you summarily dismissed as "hacks"- did you check their biographies, experience & reputation & other writings prior to your slander? Or are you just averse to "civil rights activists" out of hand?

3. Precisely what information and/or satements in those two articles - be specific - can you SUBSTANTIATE as incorrect?

Or is this just another example of your irrational entrenched hatred of Clinton not being susceptable to fact or argument?

As for Trump's qualifications in Foreign Policy, the dumb fuck has advocated the use of nuclear weapons among other idiocies - and you maintain that CLINTON is a threat to world peace?

You're lately sounding as monomaniacal, delusional & irrational as our "friend" Bubo.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 05:26 PM

"teach a pig to sin..."

Well, as they don't possess souls or free will, it would follow that they can't sin, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 05:38 PM

Please vote for one of these 3rd Party candidates to stop Trump!

Evan McMullen, Gary Johnson, Jill Stein, Morgan Freeman, Tom Hanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 05:46 PM

Mkebenn says: Can't this all be over? Mike

Sorry, Mike. Not until November. I can hardly wait.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 05:47 PM

Trump is still trying to sell his bill of goods to these folks.

Correction, Gilly- Trump HAS sold this bill of goods to these folks with remarkable success. Of course, he sold degrees at "Trump University" too...........

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 06:05 PM

Not quite. They may have been convinced so far, but they don't pay for the bill of goodstill it' s time to vote in November. And for the rest of their lives if he gets in.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 06:08 PM

I don't see anything coming along that will disabuse them, Kevin- & I've talked to some of 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 06:13 PM

Kevin give THIS a listen. Ma ygive you a whole new perspective on Trumpists.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 07:48 PM

The thing is, within a year of his being elected, nine out of ten people who voted for him would swear, and probably believe, they didn't.

And the same would apply if a Clinton presidency turned out to be a roaring success.

The really nasty lot are always there, damaged people looking to damage others. But they aren''t the main danger. The bigger danger are the ordinary folk standing around feeling embarassed, but going along with it. But in the quiet of a voting booth a lot of them are liable to get scared at the thought of President Trump actually winning.

But there aren't all that many Trumpists anyway. The biggest danger is people getting pissed off with the whole thing, and not voting. If all the people who despise Trump vote effectively against him, he hasn't a chance. And effectively means Clinton, even reluctantly.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 07:53 PM

There have always been shrill and irrational voices in the political discussion, but nowadays it seems that these voices have come to the forefront. Maybe it's caused by the proliferation of "social media," allowing and even promoting people saying things that once were only said in barrooms. There was a time when the "legitimate press" would never allow such things to be published, but then came FoxNews. And the logical result is Donald Trump.

Greg's link above (6:13 PM) is to the New York Times video of the hateful things reporters have seen and heard at Trump rallies. It is indeed horrifying to hear what is said by Trump's troops. But Greg, your usual response to all this is to use scatological references (potty talk), which makes our side sound just as irrational as the other side.

I would like to see this election defeat the Voices of Trump once and for all, and bring down the Tea Party nonsense along with it. We need to bring the political conversation back to a higher plane, so that people can discuss such things rationally.

But how do we accomplish this? By reciting "Trumpshit" over and over again?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 07:59 PM

Up above, Donuel says:

Please vote for one of these 3rd Party candidates to stop Trump!
Evan McMullen, Gary Johnson, Jill Stein, Morgan Freeman, Tom Hanks.

These are indeed some interesting candidates, Donuel, but how does dividing the anti-Trump vote serve to defeat Trump? Ralph Nader tried that in 2000, and we ended up with George W. Bush.

These third-party candidates are truly frightening to me. If they get a significant number of votes, Donald Trump wins.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 08:18 PM

Noam Chomsky's advice on that was, go for the one you like best if it'snot a swing state. Otherwise go for Clinton.

Throuble with that is, no one really knows whether any state Turn out to be a swing state this year.

First past the post is a lousy and anti-democratic system in any country. But you seem to be even more wedded to it in the States than back here in England.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 08:47 PM

McGrath says: First past the post is a lousy and anti-democratic system in any country. But you seem to be even more wedded to it in the States than back here in England.

Kevin, you've pointed out the fundamental flaw in the American system: whoever gets 51%, calls all the shots - and the 49% are mostly forgotten until the next election.

But there's another, even more insidious flaw in our system: each party nominates one candidate, and that candidate is often selected by a plurality vote. In this way, a guy like Trump who never had good support from more than 20% of the electorate, beats out others and suddenly becomes his party's candidate and automatically gets close to 50% of the votes.

There's close to a 50-50 split between Republicans and Democrats in the U.S., and it's well-nigh impossible to get most Republicans to vote for a Democrat (especially a lackluster candidate like Hillary). So, Trump has a good chance of being elected.

I'm scared.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: michaelr
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 08:57 PM

I've always rejected the "Nader nag" - the meme that says if you vote your conscience you're helping to elect the enemy - but this time it's different.

It's different because during the next president's first term, three Supreme Court justices are likely to retire or die. A president is only in office for eight years at most, but SC justices are appointed (by the president) for life. This, and only this, is the reason why progressives MUST help elect the odious HC.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 08:58 PM

But how do we accomplish this? By reciting "Trumpshit" over and over again?

Can't hurt. That's what he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 09:00 PM

the odious HC

And she's "odious" because.....? Have you been listening to Ake?

And if she's "odious", what does that make Trump & his minions?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 09:22 PM

"whoever gets 51% calls the shots" No, it's worse than that- whoever gets the largest number of votes calls the shots, even if they get far less than 51 %. Except that's not even true - Gore got more than half a million votes than Bush, when he lost. (with nearly three million going to Nader.)

In the UK the present government got a ruling majority though 64% of those voting voted for other parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 09:36 PM

Gore got more than half a million votes than Bush

That's the wonder of the Electoral College, Kevin - another rather strange colonial institution to thwart the will of the electorate.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 09:45 PM

I can't understand how people on the left describe Hillary as "odious" and "the lesser of two evils."

In a real world, Hillary Clinton would be an perfect candidate for President. She's extraordinarily intelligent, and she believes that government is really supposed to serve the people - and she's proved that belief all through her life.

But the Republicans have worked to defame her since 1992, and now even liberals speak of her as "odious." Trump says she and President Obama are the founders of ISIS, and people actually believe that.

It's really distressing to see how the Republicans have worked so hard for so long to smear the reputation of a good woman - and to see that they have succeeded to the point where even liberals now call her "odious."

God help us.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 10:34 PM

Too many people accept the lie and don't bother to do the fact checking. It's as simple as that. Richard Scaife set the lies in motion against the Clintons in the 1990s and others like the Koch brothers keep it going.

Now Trump is the beneficiary - billionaires supporting billionaires against the individuals who want to share the wealth and make the rich pay their fair share of taxes.

He makes it up as he goes - apparently confident that his followers won't do any fact checking.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Aug 16 - 11:17 PM

Joe, "but how does dividing the anti-Trump vote"...?

It's called sarcasm.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: TIA
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 12:11 AM

"but to most people here at the time Saddam was the real villain and had to be removed"

Utter utter fucking bullshit.
Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit.
We marched against the invasion and posted about it here.
We predicted hundreds of thousands of dead innocent Iraqis and were ridiculed by the local Bush apologist assholes.
We were fucking right. Fucking fucking right. So STFU Akenaton.

Look up some comments from that time by me, Bobert, Donuel, and many others. Oh, and STFU.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: michaelr
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 01:16 AM

The fact that I called HC odious is beside the point. Please re-read my post to get the important part.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 02:55 AM

"Now Trump is the beneficiary - billionaires supporting billionaires against the individuals who want to share the wealth and make the rich pay their fair share of taxes.

He makes it up as he goes - apparently confident that his followers won't do any fact checking."

You may be right Acme, but if that really is the case why does the Republican establishment hate him so much?   They must see the danger to their nasty little system.

Secondly, don't blame Mr Trump for the situation which has arisen, you all had the chance to work and vote for a real reformer in Mr Sanders who could have united what you see as the "left", but it seem that gender politics and liberal posturing are more important.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 03:05 AM

What's STFU?   :0(

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 04:49 AM

I don't think I understand you, michaelr. Is your calling Hillary "odious" another form of so-called "irony"? Well, what people think of as irony, often does not come across clearly on the Internet.

If you say something you think ironic and people don't understand it, don't blame them.

The fact of the matter, is that Hillary Clinton is an excellent candidate for President and deserves to be elected on her own merits, not merely because she's not as bad as Trump.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 07:30 AM

why does the Republican establishment hate him so much?

Because he's liable to mean a landslide victory for the Democrats, and the wreck of the Republican party that will last a generation or more.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 07:41 AM

It's good to see you post here again, TIA, and in fine form as well.
STFU, indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 16 - 07:44 AM

I don't believe that Mr McGrath, they hated him even when he was ahead in the polls.....they are afraid of him, a populist who is unwilling to toe the party line......Anything that breaks the partisan two party system must be "progressive"?

Oh! I found out what STFU means and I don't think it has any place in an open discussion forum like Mudcat.

You have some audacity TIA, pissing off in a huff in September 13 then turning up here today screaming hysterically and telling long term member to shut up.

Now that is irony.