BS: Trump again

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 10:58 AM

If you keep answering Ake, you're letting him control this discussion. Since he doesn't understand US politics or, apparently, world politics, then it's best to NOT FEED THE TROLL.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 11:24 AM

I think you are wrong Acme, the thread has come to life given the contributions of DMG and Mr McGrath,
At least people are starting to question the political system and discuss the issues.....Is that not better than a whole list of obscene name calling like we had in the beginning.
You like to imagine that you live in a democracy, well start living up to the principle.....there are many millions of Americans who will vote for Mr Trump and their views are as valid as yours even if you disagree with them; you insult my political comprehension, but you fail to show any understanding of the wider issues which will become apparent after the election, or of foreign affairs in general.

Your stance seems to be purely feminist and that is not a good way to decide who is to be the next president of the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 11:48 AM

many millions of Americans who will vote for Mr Trump and their views are as valid as yours

Bullshit. Their views are based on lies, buffoonery, ignorance, under-education, racism & misogyny. Their views have no validity at all.

Your stance seems to be purely feminist

On the contrary- its purely rationalist, whilst yours, Ake, is uninformed, bigoted nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 11:54 AM

A very interesting Post DMcG.......but bias can be very subtle as I tried to explain earlier.
Now you are obviously a supporter of Mrs Clinton from your previous posts and I couldn't help but notice that you referred to Mr Trump as "Trump" and Mrs Clinton as "Hillary" throughout the post.
As UKer, that signifies bias to me though it may have been unintended, the media do it all the time a constant drip drip, be it against Mr Trump, "The Russians", President Assad, or Mr Corbyn, depending who is media "Monster of the Week"

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that there has been huge bias against Mr Trump, right from the beginning of the process from the Media, Democrats and Republicans.....Now that would make most thinking people believe that the US political establishment are closing ranks and attempting to subvert democracy....would it not?

The US political system is based on a sham democracy and the election of Mrs Clinton will ensure that sham is continued. Mr McGrath says that "at least she admitted to being wrong over Iraq", but she then compounded the mistake a further two times.....including her chortling response to the vicious murder of the Libyan head of State.

Was that the action of someone who understands foreign affairs...I think not.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 12:52 PM

ake: "There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that there has been huge bias against Mr Trump, right from the beginning of the process from the Media, Democrats and Republicans....."

There is good reason for that bias, ake. MISTER Trump started out weird and loud and got only worse. Whyever in the world would there NOT be bias?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 12:56 PM

I do tend to refer to Hillary and Trump but I wouldn't read too much into that in terms of bias. It is simply the common terminology arising from the fact that since Clinton could mean either Bill or Hillary it is easier to use the first name. I have also seen almost no instances of Donald except in the negative form of "The Donald". Yes, I have a preference but I think I made it clear in my post I had criticisms of Mrs Clinton if you prefer that terminology. I also refer to Boris rather than Mr Johnson but I am no supporter of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 01:37 PM

there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that there has been huge bias against Mr Trump, right from the beginning of the process from the Media, Democrats and Republicans.....Now that would make most thinking people believe that the US political establishment are closing ranks and attempting to subvert democracy....would it not?

Jesus wept.

No, you dumb bastard, it would not.

It would make most people with even a pretention towards intelligence that Trump was a piece of shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 02:11 PM

It isn't always an indication of support to use a first name. Tony, Maggie, Nigel. Even Adolf.... Though I suppose when people scream "Hang Hillary" it does in a sense indicate they would atually like to support her.
................
The antagonism against Trump and Trumpism stretches a lot wider than Democrats and Republicans. Once again I cite Noam Chomsky, as a reminder that there's a left tradition in America too - and it's members recognise Trump as a quasi-fascist in another American tradition. When we talk of populism we should remember that lynch mobs are a kind of populism. In which context, a slogan like "Hang Hillary" does indeed fit very easily.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 02:24 PM

Absolutely, Kevin - the Ku Klux Klan, the Cultural Revolution, the Palmer Raids,the Tailgunner Joe McCarthy Show, and the Nazi Party were also "expressions of popularism".

However, Ake is impervious to all of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 02:50 PM

Do the rules of debate on Mudcat include the option of cursing at one another?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 02:59 PM

Mr McGrath, the rise of populism in this particular case can certainly be blamed, not on Mr Trump, but on the paucity and corruption inherent in the US political system.

In Europe the same populist movements have appeared mainly due to the failings of the EC.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 03:26 PM

Do not delude yourself that Trump's brand of populism is all that widespread. If Trump were running as an independent against Clinton and a more mainstream Republican (like Paul Ryan), he wouldn't get 20% of the vote. At least half of Republicans who will be voting for him will be doing so because they despise Clinton, not because they love Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 03:35 PM

Sorry Ebbie, I did respond to your last post, but my response seems to have vanished......spooky.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 04:09 PM

Failings of the economic and political sstem obviously generates anger and resentment, as an alternative to despair, or alongside it. Call that populism, but it can be channeled in very different ways.

There's a big difference between Spain's Podemos and France's Front National, or the nationalism of Nicola Sturgeon and Nigel Farage.

Trump's populism is in the tradition of the rightwing populists in Europe in the 30s, or the American Know Nothing movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: keberoxu
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 07:48 PM

Know Nothings, indeed. What about Mugwumps?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Charmion
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 09:08 PM

No, Keberoxu; the Mugwumps seem to be absent from this election cycle. Traditionally, they are the faction that refuse to make any decision, remaining perched on the fence with their mug on one side and their wump on the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 10:48 PM

Apparently, Trump bombed epically at the Al Smith dinner. He got booed at an event where people don't get booed.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 03:20 AM

I also suggest Mr McGrath, that the rise of populism all over Western society is in answer to decades of "liberalism" and political correctness, where people are being herded into an ideology where there is no right and wrong.....where there is an excuse for any kind of social behaviour, where venal politicians and muck raking journalists set the agenda.

Most people like to have basic rules in society.....the new ideology attacks everything which demands a degree of personal responsibility, traditions are trampled over.....rights are available, but only the rights which have been approved by the leaders of the new order(the Pigs).
Try defending your right to practice Christianity on internet forums, you will be painted as degenerate.
Try offering alternatives to the huge societal changes which are taking place......"populism" is in many cases a defence against the Fascism of the media and the political elite.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: gillymor
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 05:58 AM

Trump gave us a good example of what unpresidential looks like at the Al Smith dinner last night but I thought the funniest moment was when HRC served up a couple of zingers to Giuliani who just sat there like an old sour puss while everyone else had a good laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 09:47 AM

Recap of last debate, with smoke, wind machine, and autotune

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 02:48 PM

I wouldn't quarrel with quite a lot of what aken wrote there. But not with the suggestion populism is a defence against the fascism of the mass media. The mass media is the mother of fascism, and of the essentially fascist distortion of populism represented at this time byTrump, and before him by others who have played thesame game.

It's striking how similar Trump's story is to Berlusconi, and indeed to Mussolini before him. Both populists, but their populism was one which might have seemed to shake up society, but did so in suchaway that power disrrubution was undistured, and wealth inequalities were reinforced.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 06:16 PM

On BBC Newsnight tonight, US feminist Camille Paglia states that Mrs Clinton "is certainly one of the most incompetent and corrupt politicians of our time, and almost solely responsible for the destabilisation of North Africa".
"The very little that she has achieved in her career has been on the coat tails of her husband"

Camille must have been reading my mail.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 06:27 PM

No, but she apparently has your respect for fact and reality, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 06:35 PM

"Your stance seems to be purely feminist and that is not a good way to decide who is to be the next president of the US."

Well, dammit, Acme and meself have had our moments, but this is one of the most stupidly offensive and patronising comments I've seen here for months, which is saying something.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 07:36 PM

You obviously have not been concentrating Steve, try reading the threads before illustrating your ignorance.
I have a very good reason for stating that Acme views the coming election from a mainly feminist perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 07:56 PM

And that very good reason is?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 08:41 PM

In the words of the slogan a few years back when France faced a similar choice, with le Pen senior versus Chirac "Vote for the Crook, not the Fascist."

Here again are the quotes I gave from a recent interview Bernie Sanders gave:

"I think from a practical point of view, I would hope that all those people who worked with me on this campaign, who supported me, understand that Donald Trump would be a real, real, real disaster for this country."

"On the other hand, the day after the election, we don't sit back and say, 'well Clinton is president'," he added. "What we do is mobilize our people to make certain that hopefully President Clinton and hopefully a Democratic Senate moves forward with an agenda that helps transform his country."

"We are going to be introducing legislation piece by piece on trade, on raising the minimum wage, on making public colleges and universities tuition free on a medicare for all, on rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure"

"This is not trust, we're not here to trust," he explained. "It is the very opposite of what I am saying."

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 08:46 PM

You didn't say mainly feminist. You said purely feminist, and you intended it to be pejorative. You are back-pedalling. As a matter of fact, though please don't think I'm dignifying your stupidity by saying this, I think we could do with a bit more influence from feminism.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 10:13 PM

Ake thinks he's being insulting to accuse me of being a feminist. He's being foolish. I am TOTALLY a feminist. Have been all of my life. It isn't a pejorative, though he would like to make it one.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 03:39 AM

No Acme, I have nothing against feminism, In fact I am a huge admirer of Camille Paglia, who is a clear thinker.

What I do think is that basing ones selection of president purely on gender is not a very sensible thing to do. Women can be at least as fallible as men regarding political issues and levelling charges of misogyny against any who disagree with your views, borders on the hysterical.

I have no thought of insulting you for holding feminist views and if you perceive that intension, I apologise. I love to hear and debate all manner of views and try my best to do so in an impersonal and civil manner. In fact I am happy to inform the membership that you have been a great help to my wife and myself during her on going illness.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 06:50 AM

Hmm. Well, in order to just check that I haven't finally gone insane, let me make the following observations. This election is between Trump and Clinton. Some crazy people are going to be voting for Trump. A much bigger number of less crazy people are, in large part reluctantly I should think, going to be voting for Clinton. If I were in the US I would be voting for Clinton. In doing so, the very last thing on my mind would be the fact that she is a woman. It would be very good to have a first woman president and I endorse that sentiment. But in making up my mind which way to vote, her gender would comprise approximately 0.05% of my considerations. And it's a good bet that the majority of people who vote for her would be with me on that, though that percentage would vary. I suspect that few people are going to be voting for her "purely on gender." Of course, in so-called democracies you can't stop people doing that, any more than you can stop people voting for Trump because he has nice hair. But if akenaton thinks it's a major issue, well he'd better have some facts and figures to hand. The cautionary note for us Brits would be that we have had two women prime ministers, both of them terrible. But we've had far more men prime ministers who have been just as terrible. Having more women at the top in politics would be a good thing, but, top priority when you look at the kind of people we keep getting, we need more good people at the top in politics. Men or women.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 08:17 AM

It's impossible to say how big a factor Mrs. Clinton's gender has been in this election cycle. To do that, one would have to compare her performance with that of a male candidate of similar political philosophy and credentials. Bernie Sanders, her only serious primary opponent, was an outsider who represented a very different philosophy. Her general election opponent is the worst candidate in the history of US politics. If a mainstream male Democrat like John Kerry or Joe Biden had run against her in the primaries, or if the Republican nominee were a human being, instead of Donald Trump, maybe the importance of her gender would be more apparent.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 10:52 AM

Or, to use a bit of an analogy, if you compare a female Labrador Retriever with a male Labrador Retriever, you can chalk up most differences to gender. But if you compare a female Labrador Retriever with a male weasel, gender has very little do do with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 11:25 AM

basing ones selection of president purely on gender is not a very sensible thing to do

But basing it on ignorance, fantasy, lies, wishful thinking and crackpot theories as you and The Trumpists do IS?

And BWL, you owe a sincere apology to the mustelidae.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 09:50 AM

And the cockroaches take to the streets!!!

***

Jared Halbrook, 25, of Green Bay, Wis., said that if Mr. Trump lost to Hillary Clinton, which he worried would happen through a stolen election, it could lead to "another Revolutionary War."

"People are going to march on the capitols," said Mr. Halbrook, who works at a call center. "They're going to do whatever needs to be done to get her out of office, because she does not belong there." "If push comes to shove," he added, and Mrs. Clinton "has to go by any means necessary, it will be done."

****

Mr. Swick, by his own estimation, also owns "north of 30 guns," and he said Mrs. Clinton would have trouble if she tried to confiscate the nation's constitutionally protected weapons. (Mrs. Clinton has said she supports the Second Amendment, but she favors certain restrictions, like tighter background checks for gun buyers.)

"If she comes after the guns, it's going to be a rough, bumpy road," Mr. Swick said. "I hope to God I never have to fire a round, but I won't hesitate to. As a Christian, I want reformation. But sometimes reformation comes through bloodshed."

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/28/us/politics/donald-trump-voters.html

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 01:15 PM

From the same New York Times article:

"You go through any neighborhood and see how many Trump signs there are and how many Hillary signs there are, and I guarantee you it's not even going to be close," said Bill Stelling, 44, of Jacksonville, Fla. "The only way they've done it is by rigging the election."

I would suggest to Mr. Stelling that it's more a case of Clinton supporters being cautious about overt displays of support for fear of Trumpers' reactions. Nobody wants their house burned down for the sake of a yard sign.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 03:54 PM

So the US political establishment is not corrupt?
Ever heard of "
Common Good"?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 06:13 PM

And, yet another perspective 

"WHO will uphold the torch of openness in the West? Not America's next president. Donald Trump, the grievance-mongering Republican nominee, would build a wall on Mexico's border and rip up trade agreements. Hillary Clinton, the probable winner on November 8th, would be much better on immigration, but she has renounced her former support for ambitious trade deals. Britain, worried about immigrants and globalisation, has voted to march out of the European Union. Angela Merkel flung open Germany's doors to refugees, then suffered a series of political setbacks. Marine Le Pen, a right-wing populist, is the favourite to win the first round of France's presidential election next year."

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 07:01 PM

I imagine the fact that Hillary is a woman is one major reason a number of people will be voting for Trump.

It works both ways I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: frogprince
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 07:33 PM

McGrath, I'm sure "a number of people" won't vote for Hillary simply or largely just because she is a woman, but all the thoughts and reactions I'm hearing first hand indicate to me that it will be so small a number as to be of little or no significance. I do think she will gain substantially more "gender card" votes than she will lose. {And please, I'm not meaning to imply that women will, wholesale, be voting for gender; certainly not with the comparison between these candidates).

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Oct 16 - 09:52 PM

That crap Ake posted is a bunch of statements but there isn't a straight line between any of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 05:05 PM

FBI reopen the Clinton e mail enquiry.


Story here.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 05:39 PM

Pussy Riot's video "Make America Great Again".

It's rude, but personally, I'm more offended by Trump than a music video.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Lanfranc
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 06:41 PM

As Paul Simon wrote many years ago, "Every way you look at this you lose". We're it not for my atheist proclivities I would say "God help us". IMHO neither Trump nor Clinton is worthy of the mantle of Lincoln and Jefferson. In a world where we need giants all we get on both sides of the pond is pygmies.

When our grandchildren end up paying jizya it will be too late to regret the media bias and inadequate self-serving and/or deluded politicians who negated 1400 years of progress. I'm glad I'm 70 and not 17.

But I'm only an aged Brit, what do I know?

Alan

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 07:22 PM

Lanfranc,
I believe it takes a 70 year old atheist to carry the mantle of moral authority with a foundation of wisdom based on history to teach candidate's and the public that domestic and foreign policy are separate from nasty bits.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 07:37 PM

We need neither giants nor pigmies. Well-educated people don't need to be led by the nose. I doubt very much that either Jefferson or Lincoln were actually that great, though, of course, distance lends enchantment to the view. We can't hold our leaders to account because our system deliberately keeps us ignorant about politics (it would far sooner spend huge amounts of time telling us what to believe about irrelevancies such as God, etc.). The key to democracy is not to select charismatic leaders. If history has taught us anything at all, it's that. Instead, it's to have a well-educated, involved and vigilant electorate. Exactly what the current political systems in our countries are frightened to death of. That's why we have Tories in power and why Trump has any supporters at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Oct 16 - 07:38 PM

Pygmies, damn you, spellchecker.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 03:24 AM

Don't worry to much about the spelling Steve, concentrate a little more on the content.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 07:22 AM

I need your advice like I need a hole in the head, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump again
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 16 - 07:51 AM

"We need neither giants not pigmies" You're being a bit sizeist there, Steve, whatever way you spell pygmies. All sizes are needed.
.....................
I've just been watching Michael Moore's latest opus, "Michael Moore in Trumpland". It's basically an hour or so of him on stage rapping about Hillary and Donald and stuff. Right now it's available on YouTube. Amazing man. (No, he doesn't appeal to everyone, but then there are benighted souls who don't appreciate Marmite, there's no accounting for tastes.)