Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars

Subject: INFO/OPINIONS RE: Martin Guitars
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Jan 99 - 06:28 AM

I've noticed there have been posts lately regarding gear, passing on the knowledge of the "old guys before they kick off" (was that how you put it Max?), advice on buying a particular guitar, the benefits of having info on one thread, etc. When I first came on Mudcat I searched the forum a lot to get a feel for "who's who" at Mudcat. I noticed that gear came up a lot, but spread all over the place on lots of threads. Also, since many of us have been playing 30 years or more, we've acquired a good bit of info/knowledge/opinions regarding guitars as well as songs, a kind of natural phenomenom. So.............

The intent here is to let the thread run for awhile and then change to a different brand. You can always go back and add. The "biggies" like Martin will be alone and we can do combinations on smaller companies (Lowden,Larrivee,Lakewood). This would make the info easy to find in the forum by subject, which it sure isn't now.

Starting off with Martin seemed logical as they are widely used and would attract more attention to the thread. I've never had much luck (or maybe I've had bad luck) with Martin because 3 out of 4 times they've been stolen within a year. This wouldn't have been so bad except that they stole my others as well resulting in a net loss of 14 guitars!!!

Talk about your experience, opinions, friends,Corp. other lines(like Sigma), whatever. Might make a nice, easy to find reference...and YOU KNOW it will result in lots of differing opinions...but like I told someone the other day, that's the beauty of Mudcat!!!

catspaw

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Don Meixner
Date: 28 Jan 99 - 07:58 AM

Cat,

I own several guitars. I have a Martin 0-16NY which is a beautiful guitar to hear and play. It is very much like a 3/4 size classical body with a fullsized 12 fret neck. While it suits parlor music I'd never play it in a bluegrass band. I have a Guild F-30 which is without a doubt my all around guitar, its similar in size to a Martin 00-18 or 00-28, its sort of the cross trainer of the guitar world. I have a Yamaha FG-180 which is D size guitar like a D-18-21-28-41-45 Martin, plays good sounds fine. And I have an Ovation Elite on semi permanent loan from a very good and generous friend, It plays well. I findnothing particular about Martins in general except to say they are well made. But so are Taylors, Guil;ds, Gibsons,..... Buy a guitar you like that suits you and will stand the long haul. Even if its a Yamaha or a Stella.

Don Meixner

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 28 Jan 99 - 11:39 AM

Hi catspaw!

I'm sorry to hear you have had such bad luck with theft. People do like to lift guitars... a warning to all of us that we never can be too careful.

Here's what I know about Martins.

I have owned a few in various sizes: 0, 000, M and D. I think the M is a lovely compromise for most folk music although it may not be ideal for any. It can be fingerpicked, flatpicked and strummed very well. The size is handy too being roughly in-between a 000 and a D. The volume is adequate for almost any purpose. If I could have only 1, I would have an M. This is a personal choice, however.

You hear a lot of talk about rosewood. I have had a couple of nice rosewood Martins (my M is rosewood) but I have had some very good mahagony ones as well. I recently sold a 1952 0-18 that both Andy O'Brien and Mick Moloney played on my CD. They loved it. It was a gem. My musical partner, Bob Conroy, plays a practically new Vintage D-18 that is very loud and very evenly toned. I have heard quite a few Vintage D-18s and they have all been great guitars. It is the bracing, I guess, that makes them superior to standard D-18s.

I have had some dogs too. Guitars that looked great and never matured in terms of sound. The difference in sound quality between individual guitars of the same model can be trememdous. I would say to anyone considering a Martin to only buy a guitar that sounds good now; if it improves with age, so much the better.

A few words of warning and reasons to consider a newer Martin rather than an older one. Pickguard cracks: Martin changed the way their pickguards are fixed to the guitar top within the last 15 or so years. Cracks in the guitar top caused by the pickguard shrinking were far-too-common in instruments made earlier. Adjustable neck rods: Martin started placing adjustable neck rods in their guitars in 1985. An adjustable neck rod can save you the $350+ cost of a neck reset many times over.

The workhorse of my stable is a plywood Sigma DM-4M that has passable sound, good action and on a value-for-money basis is one of the better new guitars to be had. Having said that, I think the "stripped down" an all-mahogany Martin D-15s at about $550 discount retail is good value.

All the best,
Dan

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Frank in NJ
Date: 28 Jan 99 - 11:42 PM

The more opinions...the closer reality. I've played guitar over fifty years. My first Silvertone and Stella had the best sound for the type of music I then played. They still today cause me to go back to the old style I played on them when they were new. My 1935 Martin suggests to me that I play still yet another style. My Martin D28 suggests I play a more modern style. My Martin D35 suggests I play hard driving rythm. Each decade has a sound of its own and a guitar associated with that sound. Many of my friends have quality/expensive non Martin guitars. A few of those are a joy to play, but none to my ear have the "throat" of any of my Martins. In fact astonishing at it may seem on many many occations when a group of Martins are playing, the other brands sound out of tune. Try as one may to "tune them in" they still clash and sound out of place. As far as good sound among Martins, pre 1969 & pre truss rod are the best. Why? Better choice of wood. The good old sound "went the way" with the old trees and tube radios. If you never heard that sound you will not miss it. As you can plainly see this is guide for only us old folks. We still prefer the sound of cylinders and 78's to the nude sound of DAT and disc. When you "put your Martin up" for more than a few hours, tune it down at least three frets and retune when you want to play again, especially if you use heavy gage strings as came on the old Martins. You will never then need a neck reset or a "tuner" and the saddle and bridge will reward you with the "dream touch" of the pre-war Martin D's. I could go on but there are not many of us still around to listen. The answer to the question is another question. Who drove the price of the old Martins out of the reach of those who should be playing them today? Why is that? I still play out once or twice a week, and when I open my case, more often than not, some guitar player will glide on over and ask "what year is your Martin?" Think on that! Thanks to all you great Mudcatters for the great sounding board! Want to trade your house for my old D-45????

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Chet W.
Date: 29 Jan 99 - 06:56 PM

What we are really talking about here is the sounds of the guitars, right? Among the big American companies, there are basically the Martin sound and the Gibson sound, of which most others (except resonators and those wonderful cheap Stellas, of course) seem to be but variations. Taylor, for example, is clearly a Martin style guitar and a very good one. But then again, the fact is that every individual instrument is different, especially if you are into older guitars. The reason that the old ones can make sounds that new ones can't is that it takes the wood, regardless of normal drying processes, about 50 years (depending on the species of wood) to completely dry, leaving millions of dry hollow tubular wood cells to resonate like organ pipes. I think what drives most of us in one direction or another, especially when we're starting out, is that there is somebody we want to sound like. If you want to sound like Lester Flatt when he played in Bill Monroe's band, then there's nothing but an old Martin D-18 that will make that sound. After some years of experience, we refine our ideal sound and hopefully find the guitar that has it. Mine is a 1933 Gibson L-00 flattop. I have played several others of the same model and era, and only one of them sounded very similar to mine, though all were very good. You just have to listen and listen to what you like and then begin that search, which hopefully will be over soon enough for you to enjoy that guitar for a big part of your life. I also have several other guitars, each with its own sound, some expensive and some far from it. If you can, keep several guitars that you come across along the way. But there will be one that you love the most.

Over-rhapsodizing maybe, Chet W.

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 29 Jan 99 - 07:35 PM

THanks for the Thread .This is one of my faverite subjects! I finger pick with brass finger picks and a thumb pick. I hit on the strings very hard.For that reason the 28{Rosewood} instroments sound like I'm molesting them where as the 18 {mahagony} family soke up or something that over exileration and sounds great. I have a 018 1949 that is my best freind.I had a 00028 years ago that did sound great in the studio but the warmth of the 018 fits what I do..I have never made a drednaught sound good. The soup has to meny flavors {overtones} for what I do.I love the sound of a d28 in Rick Starkies hands. I would love to hear his opinion here for reasons that wuold become obvius. More on the National and the Kay when they come up. Listen to Martin Carthy playing a small Martin.I wonder which Ry Cooder pieces are on a small martin or not? Cheers to al

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 01 Feb 99 - 06:11 PM

I am the very happy owner of a Martin D-28, circa 1957. It has served me well for 34 years (I bought it used). It has served me well all of these years.

It has had the tuners replaced due to an accident. At that time the action was lowered. It has a few non-moving cracks on the front and the back. The bridge and some bracing has been reglued as the face was starting to arch. The action was raised just a tad at that time (an occasional buzz on the bass E was eliminated),

The guitar, I regret to say, has not been well cared for. I have put it back in the case religiously, but it has ridden in many a car trunk for many an hour, sat there over night in the winter, been subjected to forced air heat without benefit of a humidifier, and has been taken almost anywhere (beach, woods, mountains, etc.). It has held up very well. I take better care of it now then I did 10 years ago.

I have been blessed with a Martin that achieves all that Martin hoped to achieve (I got a good'un). My guitar is loud even with light guage strings. It responds well when I beat on the strings and when I finger pick. I find it fits well with a wide range of musical styles.

It has also spoiled me. I haven't heard a guitar I'd want to take in trade. In the last year, I have spent many an hour in music stores playing their guitars. The guitars that might match my Martin are in the same price range or higher, but they still don't match the mellow of a 40 year old guitar.

Some of them are truly a mite prettier than my old D-28. The brass colored Grovers are the flashiest part of this guitar. A few fret dots, some plain binding, a tortise shell pick guard, and the Martin logo are about it.

I do have another love (in the guitar arena), but that would be for a later thread.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From:
Date: 01 Feb 99 - 07:48 PM

There is even a song about a musician and his Martin, called "Me And Martin."

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Barbara
Date: 01 Feb 99 - 08:58 PM

I'm a new Martin owner. I went into the music store to see if I could find a smaller-than-dreadnaught model in my price range and instead I ended up with a new Martin 000-1R. I was seduced.
For all you folk who don't immediately recognize any Martin from its number, this is a new line, smaller bodied and the R tells you it is rosewood.
I'm enjoying it, though my savings account has not yet recovered from the shock (incidentals, indeed!).
What I find most interesting is other people's reaction to it. People keep taking it away from me. (They ask first, yes.) They try it out, rave for a while about how amazing it is, and grudgingly give it back. Well, that's nice. It's like having a new sports car. Everyone wants a ride.
Someone recently compared it favorably to their Collins (which cost 3 times as much). Can anyone tell me what this means? (sheepish grin) I didn't want to ask her.
I keep wondering, though, how much is the name. I love the sound, that's what got me. But I'm finding it a little hard to play. Partly the thinner-than-I'm-used-to neck, and then the action is high.
(And that, Sandy, is the specific of why I haven't ordered a pile of CD's from you).
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 01 Feb 99 - 09:50 PM

I always knew those Martins would do me in, Barbara. I've had a few of 'em in my day. Had one (000-28) stolen from the trunk of my car in New York (popped open while parked in a "secure" building); had one (000-28S)on which the bridge saddle was almost a quarter of an inch out of place (ask Ray Frank about that one, he worked on it for me and it was he who took the incriminating measurement). I now have a Laskin and two Larrivees (one of which is out on permanent loan to my younger son), plus a 12-string built by Nick Apollonio and a Contreras classical. The only Martin left in the house is my wife's (nominally) little classical which once belonged to Hally Wood.

I'm glad you found an instrument you can love. Get Ray to adjust the action for you. It ought to play like a dream! You can always buy records later through Mudcat and spread the profit around a bit.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From:
Date: 01 Feb 99 - 11:53 PM

Everyone ought to have one material thing that he or she feels is very, very fine, indeed. Something they never get tired of picking up, feeling, admiring. Something that has the power to change a mood from dark to bright, or at least happily mellow. For some, it may be a fine watch or automobile; for others, an exquisite sculpture or other object of art. For many of us in this forum, it's probably a cherished musical instrument. For me, it's my relatively late-model HD-28. Maybe nothing special to you owners of vintage instruments. But I've been playing guitar for over 30 years, dreaming of owning a Martin one day. I bought mine in early 1995, after playing all the popular alternatives to Martin. I've never regretted buying the herringbone. Nothing but pure pleasure every time I open the case. Long live the 'bone!!

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From:
Date: 02 Feb 99 - 02:12 AM

Many years ago I heard about a little demonstration that was held in a New York music store (possibly Matty Umanov's) A number of players and listeners gathered and allowed themselves to be blindfolded. They then played on, and listened to several guitars, including Martins, gibsons, Guilds, and some less expensive ones. The winner? An off the rack Yamaha!

The old Martins just seem to have class. On the other hand I wouldn't kick one of those pretty Collings, or Santa Cruz numbers out of bed.

Rick F

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From:
Date: 02 Feb 99 - 01:54 PM

I am a happy owner of a Martin D-35, which I bought new in 1976.The same year I bought a Fylde-Orlando.This one is hand made on Englands Westcoast and it sounds very "crispy" Helge in Norway

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Feb 99 - 03:08 AM

Thought I'd let this pass one more time before moving on to other brands. I've owned several Martins and all have been fine guitars. Martin probably provides the benchmark instrument in many ways. Reading everyone's comments has been interesting as none are anti-Martin and most seem to agree on certain points.

I too like the sound balance of the M series, which has now reverted to it's previous 0000 designation. Martin is also aggresively pursuing all ends of the market and seem to be doing a good job of it. Martin went through a period of stagnation but the newfound competition from Taylor and others, combined with a solid leadership from Chris IV, has brought them to a level that I don't believe anyone expected a few years ago. Some may be wishing they had "let sleeping dogs lie."

Someone brought up the aging point, to which I can only add that a great sounding guitar will get better. A clunk, no matter what brand, will never improve. Also, Martin has a great factory tour and if you're in eastern PA. you need to check it out.

catspaw

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From:
Date: 15 Feb 99 - 07:20 PM

Hi Martinlovers,

I have an 9 years old HD-28 and some of my friends use other Martin models bought 3-8 years ago. Some of us are professionals and some (like me) are just amateur folkies.

We all share the opinion that Martins before 1968 were much better, esp. when thinking of materials. Our Mguitars need corrections aprox. 2 times a year, including corrections of the neck.

I think Martins dated 1968 and later aren't worth money they cost. Besides we have many other instruments, that we prefere: various Takamine models, some old Guilds, newer Ovation.

I think, this is like other famous brands ex. Mercedes: 20 % values + 80% marketing.

Regards

Szarak

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: BK
Date: 16 Feb 99 - 12:32 AM

I am the original owner of 3 martins; 2 older ('57 & ~'63) & 1 of the newer cheaper DM's. Was gonna buy something else (Not Another Martin!!) but that clever dog of a salesman snuck the DM into my unwilling hands. Ended up trying most of the other Martins (& other brands, but they didn't have Taylor) in the store & liked the sound better than almost all the more expensive models. I'm still going to buy a cedar-topped, smaller-than-dreadnaught Taylor as my next serious guitar. picked up a Baby Taylor just for goofing around & love it -for it's size...

My problem w/Martin is rough relations w/the factory; I'm the original owner of my other 2 Martins as well & haven't been pleased w/the guarantee work or the attitude (Martin used to be fantastic). I haven't even gotten around to sending the papers on the DM yet (Moved twice in the 2+ yrs since purchasing it, & not sure if I should bother; The nut was a mile high, the bridge pins stuck way up... neck rod needed snugging several times.. all of which I'm quite capable of doing competently myself.. So now it also plays well. I even put on Rotomatics -easy bolt-on swap; all holes lined up perfectly.)

But the sound "was sweet & good, & I did what I could." I guess that's what counts. the guys at the bluegrass jam like the new DM almost as much as the older model; they each have a different character.

I have other, often much cheaper instruments that I also like a lot; appreciate each for what it is. Worst were 2 Guild dreadnaughts w/nice necks & sound that always disappointed, never matured. I did get rid of them, something I rarely do.

My advice to newbies: first get a carefully selected Seagull, then when you are ready for the higher level guitar, you can still use the old one for back-up, camping, give to the kids, younger sib, etc.. you'll have something worth keeping hold of til your experience & taste mature.

Cheers, BK

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Neil Lowe (inactive)
Date: 16 Feb 99 - 09:03 AM

I was in a music store and just for kicks (as I could never have been able to afford it) I picked up a Martin 12-string and plunked around for a while. I was happily surprised that this guitar I was holding and cost well over ten times (in 1976 dollars) more than the $200.00 no-name I had at home sounded no better to my ear. Cheap tastes served me well, for they had saved me years of longing for something I could never have been able to acquire. I gently returned the guitar to its place on the wall rack and have never again felt the urge to revisit the highly touted Martin family of guitars.

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 20 Feb 99 - 02:56 PM

I was talking with Orrin Star a few months ago. Orrin is a former National Flatpicking Champion and a knowledgeable guy about guitars and a number of other things. I asked him what his thoughts were on Martin guitars. He said that his preference is towards older Brazilian rosewood Martins (basically, guitars in the 20/30/40 series made in early 1969 and before) but he continued to say that, if he were buying a brand-new guitar today, he would more likely to get a Collings or Santa Cruz. This probably represents nothing more than information for most of us because pre-1970 Brazilian rosewood Marin guitars start about $2500 and the others he mentioned are not inexpensive either.

While many chores at the Martin factory are now mechanized, their guitars are still essentially handmade and still made in America. A question for Americans (in particular) to consider when they're buying a guitar is whether there is any value to owning a guitar handmade in America since 1833? There is no correct answer to this. Certainly it means a Martin guitar is going to be more expensive.

The Law of Diminishing Returns indicates that you can get a perfectly acceptable machine made guitar for $300 and that a handmade one for $3000 will not sound 10 times better, will not give you 10 times more range or, necessarily, be 10 times easier to play.

Whether the price of Martin (or any other) Guitars are fairly valued is a personal choice dependent on one's budget and level of interest. Who says your car should be worth 5 times more than your car? "You pays your money and you takes your choices!"

All the best,
Dan

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Pete (inactive)
Date: 20 Feb 99 - 04:13 PM

Hi,

I have a lot of various guitars and find that each of them has its own tune and style of music/playing.

Whilst on a day out I (as usual) popped into the local music shop - now as I said I have a lot of guitars, Gibson's M.R.'s, Ovations,etc... but I'd never bought a Martin - never in the right place at the right time or with the cash to hand - but I have played a lot of Martins, friends, etc and around the clubs.

On this day I saw as I walked in the door just one guitar standing out from all the rest - a Martin D.15 - The owner of the shop asked me to try it and tell him what I thought of it - I strummed, picked, down the neck up the neck with partial and standard capos. Everything about this guitar was right for me - the strings the actions and the feel - I love a guitar that makes my body vibrate when I play it - makes you feel a part of the music.

Yes O.K. I bought it - and play it whenever I can - in the clubs and at home - I am very pleased to own a guitar that gives me so much pleasure for such a reasonable price. Many other musician that have played this guitar have gone in search of one - and have also succumbed.

Well I like this Martin, but I don't like All Martins, Its that funny thing personal taste again.

Take care, sing and play well

Pete (Clansfolk)

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Art Thieme
Date: 20 Feb 99 - 06:15 PM

I've had two 000-18 Matins--the first bought in '61 or 62 and ultimately died when I smashed it over the TV set during a discussion with my wife, Carol. Then used a D-28 for many years & rather than take the time for a fret job I was too busy), I traded it for a Gurian. Neck on the Gurian never did get put on right. Got rid of it when I WON a Martin D-76 bicentennial model (limited edition) in a raffle at the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago. (cost: $3.00) I've been playing that guitar in various configurations until I smashed it with the lid of a car trunk. (As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly... er,I thought there was plenty of room!) Jan Burda in Berian Springs, Michigan did a masterful job putting those matchstick pieces and splinters back together again. While it was in the shop I got my second 000-18. Did that for physical & health reasons. The smaller size etc. was easier for me to play.

Martin has always been the guitar for me. Never have seen a bad one. Later (more recently),I always tried to have two at the same time---in case one was in the shop. Always just felt good/right to own and pick on a Martin. Some o' that is just querrencia I suspect.

Art

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 21 Feb 99 - 08:29 AM

TO: BIG JOE WILLIAMS & ART THIEME (individually or jointly)

Gentlemen:

I believe you voided the warrantees on your instruments when you tacked on those extra 3 strings.

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Art Thieme
Date: 21 Feb 99 - 10:24 AM

Dan,

Yer right, we did void the guarantee. (I doubt Joe had one on his old Silvertone back then.) But my Martin had no problem taking the extra 3 treble strings. (Some would say it was more "treble" than it was worth. But it had a fine sound.)

I tuned down an entire note & kept a capo at the 1st or 2nd fret. No altering was done to the bridge; I just put the 2 first strings into one hole and the 2 second strings into the second hole. One bridge-pin in each hole still--of course. And it did help me get more sound with less work--which was what I needed at that time.

It was worth all of it just to see Mike Longworth's reaction every time he'd stand there and gaze at it in Winfield! It really was.

Art

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: rick fielding
Date: 21 Feb 99 - 12:25 PM

Dammit Art, everytime you respond to someone I feel this gnawing need to respond to you. I guess that's your natural charisma at work.

Don't you know you're not supposed to argue with your wife, and if you must..then you're supposed to have a Kent, Stella (post 1955), or Framus hanging on the wall next to the TV, for that very purpose. If you prefer that the guitar (rather than the TV, survives) keep an Ovation handy.

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 21 Feb 99 - 01:10 PM

Ah yes, the famous Framus guitars. I bought a Framus 12-string in Germany while on Operation Reforger I. It was $110 at the PX. It was a playable guitar, but it was the quietest steel string guitar I have ever played. It died a slow depth from mistreatment at a teen recreation center where I worked.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Feb 99 - 01:31 PM

Geez...what a blast from the past...Framus...my first 12...had a real funny peghead to neck design and the world's smallest neck for a 12. Bought Gibson, sold Framus to high school friend and he still had it at our 25 year reunion!!! Haven't seen him since, didn't make it to 30...think I'll give him a call.

catspaw

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: rick fielding
Date: 21 Feb 99 - 05:55 PM

"Paw", don't know what operation reforger was, but I'm sure that Framus was Germany's revenge for Gen. Patton.

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Art Thieme
Date: 22 Feb 99 - 02:34 AM

Smashing my 00018 over the TV was actually the first "guitar break" I ever took!!

Art

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: BK
Date: 24 Feb 99 - 12:08 AM

Hey! I got a Framus plectrum top-tension banjo & it's not too bad... not too good either, but what the heck.. 'n I can always lean on my Ovation if I'm playin' on the street & get tired... come on, guys, lets have a little respect... after all, it takes a lickin' & keeps on pickin' (sort of)...

cheers, BK

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 24 Feb 99 - 12:25 AM

Hi Art!

[Note the spelling. I'm not suggesting that "Pokegma Bear," as much as I love it, is High Art.]

What happened to the TV set? I'm going to assume that, if it kept on playing, Carol won the argument.

All the best.

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Feb 99 - 12:06 PM

Hey BK, I'd never question the durability of Ovations and Framus instruments! If I was in a life threatening situation, I'd rather be armed with my trusty Framus banjo, than some wimpy Vega Whyte Ladie. AND after you'd dispatched the attacker, the old Framus could still play a credible version of Taps over him. And let's face it, if your D28 fell off a wall hook and plunged 5 feet it wouldn't bounce a bit and remain unharmed like my Ovation did a few years ago. Keep on pickin'

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From:
Date: 24 Feb 99 - 06:44 PM

I share your pain respecting television Art, but personally I'd probably have put my boot through it rather than wasting a good guitar.

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 04 Mar 99 - 11:25 AM

The Fieldings, proud parents of small felines Kate and Allie, (don't blame me, they were named before we got them) announce a new addition to Ricks revoltingly large collection of instruments. Martina, a scarred, battered, scratched and overworked 50 year old 0-18 now rests comfortably in the basement. Her voice is loud and beautiful and with any luck she'll spend the next few years being treated like royalty. Mr. Fielding was heard to say: "oooh, oooh, oooh!" Mrs. Fielding's only comment was: "when are you gonna grow up?"

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Mar 99 - 11:56 AM

Dear Rick...You need to keep that kind of thing a bit on the quiet side. Nothing to fear from 'Paw and Cletus, but that's exactly what the boys on the "MUTE" thread are looking for to conduct an experiment on musical energy. I saw through there scheming and got the admission from them, but your O could wind up as less than O. Please read the thread, post armed guards as you see fit, and see if you can snatch up some of whatever they're smoking.

catspaw

P.S. Congrats!!! Send Cigar!!!

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Peter Fisher
Date: 04 Mar 99 - 12:14 PM

I'd be interested to know if anyone has any advice on getting warranty work done on a Martin. I bought a 1969 D-21 new and was assured that it had a lifetime warranty from Martin, that my ownership of the guitar would be registered with Martin, just bring it to any authorized Martin repair shop, etc. So 30 years later I discover that my warranty is good only if I have the original sales receipt, so the $750 in repairs that it needs (neck reset etc.) has to come out of my pocket. Hell, I was 23 at the time, I've moved 17 times since then, of course I don't have the receipt. The guitar was never registered to anyone (you can find this out by calling Martin) which means either the dealer or Martin screwed up. The peculiar thing is that the folks at Martin tell me that a letter from the firm welcoming me as a new Martin owner (they did this in the early 70s) would be sufficient to establish ownership. This means that Martin is admitting that there are folks that Martin knew had just bought a new Martin, because they sent them a letter, but their guitar did not get registered to them. This conveniently saves them a lot of money now. And apparently Martin is no longer accepting notarized affidavits or the like either. Fact is, I don't have $750 to spend on my guitar. Makes me want to cry.

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 04 Mar 99 - 03:51 PM

Peter, forget the legalities, or Martin's moral responsibilities and any related stuff. If you want to hear real life guitar horror stories, talk to folks who have sent their instruments back to Martin and have waited months and in a couple of cases YEARS for a totally sub-standard repair. I know that some people will say they were treated great but I have seen first-hand well over 20 REALLY bad jobs. Do you live in an area with a qualified repair person? Someone who MUST treat folks right in order to stay in business. If you were in Toronto I'd send you to Bruce Dowd who does superb work, charges reasonable prices (a neck re-set is nowhere near 750 bucks) and gets the instrument back to you quickly. Here's a suggestion. If you or a friend or a relative is going to visit a fairly sizable town in the next while, check (perhaps through the Mudcat) if there's a respected repairperson in the area and get your guitar to that person. Even if it takes a week or two, you'll be much better off than sending it to a factory (warranty or not.) Good luck.

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Peter Fisher
Date: 04 Mar 99 - 05:01 PM

Thanks for the advice. If Bob George is still repairing Martins in the Kansas City area, I will take it to him the next time I'm down that way. He fits your description (or at least he did 20 years ago.) I live in Iowa City, so if anyone has other suggestions from Minneapolis to Chicago to Missouri, let me know.

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Mar 99 - 05:05 PM

Peter....Not knowing where you live, I can't help much except to add a bit to what Rick said. I can't imagine what else you have wrong that would warrant that much in repair costs unless your 21 came into a serious disagreement with a Kenworth. And let me guess, that's plus shipping and whatever else they "find needing immediate attention."

First, there is a Luthiers Guild that can provide names and numbers close to you. You have an excellent source right here in Mudcat. Lots of guitar pickers who have dealt with repairmen for years. In my little part of the world there are 5 guys I would trust implicitly within a 50 mile radius. Also, some of the supply houses have in-house people that are excellent. True too, there are a number of vintage dealers all over the country that use specific people who are generally top notch. Here's a DON'T for you. DON'T ask your local non-vintage type dealer. They may have someone, but it's not their thing and they will tell you that you get a better job from Martin and the price is worth it and that Rick is wrong...He's NOT!!! I have a friend down in Georgia that sent his D-28 back against advice and wound up with a very "woody" instrument. And Martin whacked him for $835.00 for God knows what!!! That was payable in advance I might add.

Post your general area and someone can help, or send me an e-mail or message and I'll provide you with the numbers and places I mentioned. The 21's were a neat series, don't let yours be a casualty.

catspaw

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Mar 99 - 05:13 PM

Sorry Peter...as I typed all that you were already back. But a quick thought about where you live...send a message to Art Thieme for his opinion! He's damn near next door to you, and lots of experience in that area...to say the least.

catspaw

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: BK
Date: 04 Mar 99 - 11:21 PM

Peter: Martin reluctantly owned up to me being the real owner of both my older models & did "guarantee" work on them, but it's been a mixed bag over the years; the last work they did is definitely not up to the standard. I was going to finally give the latest "CF" clone (think he's the 4th?) a piece of my mind - big time! - & list the many screw-ups his lads did; maybe send him a picture of the glue (or laquer?) piling up in front of the bridge after they finally replaced it. (The guys at the bluegrass jam think it's appalling; it certainly has not been good advertising for them to do such shoddy work..)

But my sweet midwestern wife brow-beat me out of it, at least partly on the reasoning that I will continue to own these guitars a long time (hopefully!) & may need their good will -ie, don't piss off the workers. Maybe CF would want to know - maybe he wouldn't.. ??? Don't know how to call it. (Could he do anything, any-way??) But I do know that a little over 2 years back I bought a new Martin from Rockin' Robin in houston. I have not yet sent in the ownership papers. (My sister died, we moved, they were lost in the clutter for a while, etc, etc..) Now, clearly I feel ambivalent.

Anyway, for all my other guitars except the "lifetime guaranteed" Martins, I have always done my own work; I'm a a sort of luthiery hobiest & sometimes work on my friend's instruments. Excepting the so-called guarantee, I would NEVER even consider sending anything to the Martin factory any more. Years ago they were great. I'm rather doubtful if they care any more, maybe they are too corporate now, & we who buy & play are just a means to an end. the stock market is what counts?

I do get a clear feeling that if you are a well known star, you'll be treated well.

Anyway: if they've shafted you out of your guarantee, at least they might've inadvertantly done you a sort of backwards favor. As has been mentioned by others, take your guitar to someone motivated to do good work. And next time, buy something else, like a Taylor.

Cheers & Good Luck, BK

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 05 Mar 99 - 12:45 PM

Hmmmm...I think I was a bit too harsh about the good folks at Martin. They build fine instruments. (over the last 8 or 9 years) Like any other instrument company who got caught with their pants down during the great "folk boom" of the 60s and 70s Martin couldn't keep up with the orders or the quality. I've read articles where Martin execs (and some others) said that this was all a myth and that their guitars never dropped in quality, but from an educated player's point of view it became obvious that consistancy wasn't there for about 15 years. Had it been, then companies like Taylor, Larivee, Lowden, and especially Yamaha, and Takamine, would not have become successful so quickly. Even Ovation reaped benefits from Martin's fall from grace. Today however, forced, because of the amazing quality of the competition (Collings, Santa Cruz, and the brilliant independents like Grit Laskin) Martin is back with a vengeance.

As to warranty repairs..NONE of the guitar companies, OR computer companies OR auto companies want to do what is essentially free work. They do it grudgingly and probably badly. Gibson's solution to having to do free repairs on their guitars in the 60s, was to start building them like tanks, and so that's what they (mostly) sounded like. My final thought on this is Never buy a guitar using the warranty as a major selling point. Buy what sounds good, feels good, and has been played by a friend with MORE experience than you. Next ask a few questions and find a repair person who's number will go up on the fridge next to the plumber, furnace guy, doctor and fire dept.

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: BK
Date: 07 Mar 99 - 10:40 PM

Rick; good points.. Buy for the Guitar, not the guarantee.

Cheers, BK

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Mar 99 - 11:39 PM

Dear BK...I think you'll find that Mr. Fielding always makes good points, although I think he is wrong on something in his last post. I reread this thread and don't see where Rick was ever too tough on Martin. I'm not sure that they have had a great repair department in years, although they have developed some techniques which others have enhanced and are now in popular usage. Their fall from grace was the result of corporate smugness. Their reascension toward the top has been through corporate aggression. Credit must be given to Chris IV for steering this course...and the first move he made was to bring back the quality and sound that had made Martin what it was. As the saying goes, "You gotta' dance with who brung yuh." They have made plenty of smart moves since, including the re-issuing of classic models and the "built in collectability" of the signature/limited run Artist series. And they are doing quite well both in sales and acceptance of their "road" series guitars and those using alternate woods.

Maybe you should write to C-IV to complain about the repairs and guarantee. Can't hurt!!! Maybe we ought to send him this thread. I agree with both you and Rick that we buy guitars, not warranties. I don't recall ever sending in a warranty card in my life...on anything. I always figure the hassle isn't worth the time and I can find someone else to fix whatever it is better. I've used new car warranties, but never bought an extended one. And when it came to guitars, many of mine were bought used so it never occured to me that a guarantee was important to others. But you've got a good point on them Taylors...that thread will be coming soon, expect to hear from you!!!

catspaw

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: CarlZen
Date: 08 Mar 99 - 12:50 AM

Maybe this will start anew thread based on the song "Thank You Mr. Martin" (?) which Norman Blake sings. Not only a lyric search, but maybe someone knows the story behind the song.

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 08 Mar 99 - 02:14 PM

How right you are "cat", I guess I see Martin like some favourite uncle who got caught in a raid on a brothel. I'm a trifle embarrassed at his predicament, but I remember all the good memories. Ed.note: This is the stupidist analogy you have ever come up with!

When I first visited the factory in Nazereth PA. in 1968 I expected to see little old German-American craftsmen hunched over benches using old world methods and secret varnishes. One look at the giant spray booth cured me of that. That's when I realised that the folk boom meant "BOOM". I did get some nifty souvenirs though..Coffee cup, bumper sticker and ash tray. (whoo, THAT shows you how long ago it was)

I'm fortunate to be friends with Grit Laskin, and visiting his shop is a wonderful experience. Although everything is state of the art, Grit still works alone and creates amazing instruments. Many go direct from his shop into museums around the world. (perhaps because of his reputation as a creative inlayist as well as luthier) He is THE rennaisance man of his time. Singer, Songwriter, Novelist, Photographer, luthier, comedian (2nd funniest guy I know) and during a social visit here, he fixed all of our door-knobs with his Swiss Army knife!

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Mudjack
Date: 08 Mar 99 - 02:33 PM

Mudders, I've owned several over the years. They have great resale value but frankly are over priced for what you get. You can purchase most any hand built guitar for less money and have a lifetime keeper.Martins have a terrific reputation but by far not the best guitar for the money. I was new at what a guitar should sound like, my first Martin 000-18 barked like an old dog.My D-28 sounded great and sold it for more than I paid. I had a D-35-s,good sound but sold it when I needed money for a new roof.My sons 00-18 was the best sounding of all. I sold and let go more Martins than anyone should admit to. Reason being I had a 1971 Lo Prinzi that simply out performed any of the Martins. ...Jack....

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: BK
Date: 09 Mar 99 - 12:18 AM

Again I have to say many points on this thread resonate well w/me, but I really like one of Rick's comments abt it being like having a favorite uncle caught at the brothel. I remember my first visits to the factory; how friendly & informal they were. I guess that had to go, & in truth, they were still not all that overly formal last time I was there. Just not the really easy going informality of the old days.

But, more to the point, I trusted them, thought of them as unofficial family, and trusted their work in the old days. Later, after they had already worked on both my guitars a couple times over the years, they suddenly got stuffy & suggested I wasn't the original owner, one guy openly sneered. I only found a few old reciepts (who saves that old junk?) & this evidently was - minimally - acceptable; note: THEY lost THEIR old records.. not me. Anyway after this, they screwed up my bridge several times, knocked the binding off one guitar & never knew it. I found it when I inspected the guitar when I picked it up. Took more time..

In the old days, when I lived overseas, I would brag, especially to my German pals, abt the impeccable quality of Martin workmanship. This workmanship was something American in which I could take confidant pride. And that definitely included not only new instruments but repairs. I guess I felt personally invested in Martin, & later felt betrayed, like a jilted lover. (CORNY! but not a bad analogy, I CARED.) Probably explains why I feel so pissed...

I'm glad to hear that Chris cares.. I wish him luck, & only hope his employees care as much as he does. An old & justly famous family reputation is a tradition which SHOULD be cherished, & a source of pride & motivation for excellence.

Cheers, BK

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 Mar 99 - 12:04 PM

Bk, Absolutely. If back in my wandering days, someone had held a gun to my head and ordered "invest in something, you hippie freak!" It would have been Martin Guitars!

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: j0_77
Date: 09 Mar 99 - 12:43 PM

My 10 cents - I never found a Martin I did not just love :) But I could never afford to buy one :( Sooo there. Notice sometimes newbies with Martins drown me out of circles and that is irratating especialy when I know the are just givin me a hard time :) I have big paws so I love the wider fretboards but (comments welcome) have some difficulty adjusting my right hand picking to the string spacing. I prefer a smaller Guitar with a wide neck and a sweet ring so generally prefer Mahogany. Also love to mess around and cut up as I play (Started playing as a lil kid)Mostly I havent the foggiest idea what I am doing so I can never xplain it when I am asked. It is kinda like bowing a fiddle - I do it but dont know an up from a down :)

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: Einnor (inactive)
Date: 09 Mar 99 - 02:24 PM

I have to break my silence on this most sensitive issue. I purchased a D-28 last year from a dealerin Penn. I didn't know it at the time he sold me aruined guitar. Dried it to the point the bridge sank or sunk whatever, I was taken advantage of by an authorized dealer. I took the guitar to the factory in Nazereth. They looked after me to the point of bringing a tear to your eye. They replaced the guitar with one that is sounding better all the time. Other people who I play with on occasion tell me I must have gotten a good one ,so if I have any opinion of Martin Guitars, it's a good one.

Subject: RE: Info/Opinions RE: Martin Guitars
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Mar 99 - 03:34 PM

Again, I truly believe that Martin is into treating us like the old days. The repair dept. still isn't any great shakes, but they want the customer satisfied. Glad you got a new axe!!!

Also brings up last year's dealer "crackdown" where Martin made some commitments to their dealers, but also asked strong commitment in return. As I read this thread, it's obvious that for whatever reasons, an awful lot of us are "pulling" for Martin. It's kinda' funny really...is it just pride, memories, or what?

catspaw