BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)

Subject: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 04:36 PM

At last. (Incidentally I have never understood how Christians are able to make themselves believe that there is one immutable, unchanging, omnipotent God.)

Excerpts:

**After (General William) Boykin had led Americans in a battle against a Somalian warlord he announced: "I know my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his God was an idol." Now Boykin was going about evangelical revivals preaching that America was in a holy war as "a Christian nation" battling Satan and that America's Muslim adversaries will be defeated "only if we come against them in the name of Jesus." For such an hour, America surely needed a godly leader. So General Boykin explained how it was that the candidate who had lost the election in 2000 nonetheless wound up in the White House. President Bush, he said, "was not elected by a majority of the voters - he was appointed by God." Not surprising, instead of being reprimanded for evangelizing while in uniform, General Boykin is now the Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence. (Just as it isn't surprising that despite his public call for the assassination of a foreign head of state, Pat Robertson's Operation Blessing was one of the first groups to receive taxpayer funds from the President's Faith-Based Initiative for "relief work" on the Gulf Coast.)
    **But what is unique today is that the radical religious right has succeeded in taking over one of America's great political parties - the country is not yet a theocracy but the Republican Party is - and they are driving American politics, using God as a a battering ram on almost every issue: crime and punishment, foreign policy, health care, taxation, energy, regulation, social services and so on.
    **Alas, these "great moral issues" do not include building a moral economy. The Christian Right trumpets charity (as in Faith Based Initiatives) but is silent on social and economic justice. Inequality in America has reached scandalous proportions: a few weeks ago the government acknowledged that while incomes are growing smartly for the first time in years, the primary winners are the top earners - people who receive stocks, bonuses, and other income in addition to wages. The nearly 80 percent of Americans who rely mostly on hourly wages barely maintained their purchasing power. Even as Hurricane Katrina was hitting the Gulf Coast, giving us a stark reminder of how poverty can shove poor people into the abyss, the U.S. Census Bureau reported that last year one million people were added to 36 million already living in poverty. And since l999 the income of the poorest one fifth of Americans has dropped almost nine percent.
    **Let's take a brief detour to Ohio and I'll show you what I am talking about. In recent weeks a movement called the Ohio Restoration Project has been launched to identify and train thousands of "Patriot Pastors" to get out the conservative religious vote next year. According to press reports, the leader of the movement - the senior pastor of a large church in suburban Columbus - casts the 2006 elections as an apocalyptic clash between "the forces of righteousness and the hordes of hell." The fear and loathing in his message is palpable: He denounces public schools that won't teach creationism, require teachers to read the Bible in class, or allow children to pray. He rails against the "secular jihadists" who have "hijacked" America and prevent school kids from learning that Hitler was "an avid evolutionist." He links abortion to children who murder their parents. He blasts the "pagan left" for trying to redefine marriage. He declares that "homosexual rights" will bring "a flood of demonic oppression." On his church website you read that "Reclaiming the teaching of our Christian heritage among America's youth is paramount to a sense of national destiny that God has invested into this nation."
    **One of the prominent allies of the Ohio Restoration Project is a popular televangelist in Columbus who heads a $40 million-a-year ministry that is accessible worldwide via 1,400 TV stations and cable affiliates. Although he describes himself as neither Republican nor Democrat but a "Christocrat" - a gladiator for God marching against "the very hordes of hell in our society" - he nonetheless has been spotted with so many Republican politicians in Washington and elsewhere that he has been publicly described as a"spiritual advisor" to the party. The journalist Marley Greiner has been following his ministry for the organization, FreePress. She writes that because he considers the separation of church and state to be "a lie perpetrated on Americans - especially believers in Jesus Christ" - he identifies himself as a "wall builder" and "wall buster." As a wall builder he will "restore Godly presence in government and culture; as a wall buster he will tear down the church-state wall." He sees the Christian church as a sleeping giant that has the ability and the anointing from God to transform America. The giant is stirring. At a rally in July he proclaimed to a packed house: "Let the Revolution begin!" And the congregation roared back: "Let the Revolution begin!"
    **To save the American Dream, "we desperately need to reaffirm the principle that it is possible to carry out an analysis of social life which rational human beings will recognize as being true, regardless of whether they happen to be women or men, whites or black, straights or gays, employers or employees, Jews or born-again Christians. The alternative is to stand by helplessly as special interest groups tear the United States apart in the name of their "separate realities' or to wait until one of them grows strong enough to force its irrational and subjective brand of reality on all the rest."

The Speech

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Peace
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 05:01 PM

When God enters through the front door of argument, reason leaves through the back.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 05:12 PM

Wow, Ebbie, thanks for the link!!

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 05:19 PM

Also thanks from me.

Two links "Ads by Goooooogle" below the reply box-
Is There A God? "Offering Six Straight Forward Reasons to Believe in God"
and
"Words of the Almighty God "Come and hear God's Voice. If you seek Christ, enter this gate."

Google (and perhaps Mudcat) on the side of theocracy?

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 05:21 PM

It's a great address, isn't it! Wish Bill Moyers was 30 years younger than he is. He's been a hero of mine for a long time and I'd like him to live for a long, long time yet.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 06:36 PM

God is not, and never has been, the exclusive property of the Christian religion...nor of any other religion. Watch out for people who assume He/She is! Such people are exceedingly dangerous.

"One omnipotent God" does not necessarily mean one that meets the lunatic definitions concocted by various religious fanatics...who, truth be told, are merely making up a God in their own image...a God who is vicious, vengeful, judgemental, and insane.

Taosim proposes one Way, the Tao. It is not a Way that judges or punishes anyone...it just functions in a totally coherent manner throughout Creation. Buddhism proposes a way of being also, based on achieving balance between extremes. Vedanta (the religious tradition of India) proposes One Supreme Divine manifesting in the world of duality as many different aspects, each personified by various symbolic gods and goddesses. Christianity, when embraced by the sane, proposes a loving and forgiving God. So do other monotheistic faiths, when they are held by people who are reasonable and sane. The most reasonable people honor ALL faiths and are exclusively attached to none, in my opinion.

To condemn the very idea OF God because some people on this planet hold an insane notion about God is to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

People who don't believe in any God at all, after all, are just as capable of committing great atrocities against humanity (for money or power) as people who happen to believe in an insane version of God.

Keep it in mind. The loonies are not all on one side of the fence.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 08:52 PM

The loonies want to tear down the fence to burn their alleged heretics.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 09:39 PM

Little Hawk, I would like your ruminations on the Old Testament God. What Moyers said in that speech does not exaggerate a thing.

As given in the OT, God is very much like Zeus and that crowd.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Peace
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 09:42 PM

The OT God seems like a big guy named Vinnie who carries a metal friend with him--and likes to use it.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Sep 05 - 10:19 PM

Actualy, non of this has anything to do with God...

Nuthin' but brass-nuckles politics and the Repubs have it down to a science...

Like, how erlse can one explain the fact that there are lots of olks in the South and Midwest who will vote for a party that is slowly bleeding them to death???

God ain't got nuthin' to with thisw...

Might of fact, I wish that God was this all powerfull fdeller that the Christain Right makes him outt o be 'cause if He were he'd *harvest* Bush and most of his buddies tomorrow....

Yeah, where's this "Rapture" when we need it the most????

Come get him, God... 1600 Pennsylvania Ave... Take him soon,,, Pleeeeeeze!!!

Can't find him? I 'll send a map...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Pogo
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 10:07 AM

I'm sure quite a few politicians believe in God but perhaps the question should be does God believe in politicians? ;)

beware those folks who commit atrocities in the name of anything. beware those people who turn their personal beliefs into an political agenda. They build themselves a golden calf.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 10:26 AM

Moyers' speech is powerful and persuasive and distills into good, straightforward exposition the most mightmarish aspects of the decline of reason in this nation over the last decade.

I strongly recommend reading the whole thing (link above).

" As I look back on the conflicts and clamor of our boisterous past, one lesson about democracy stands above all others: Bullies - political bullies, economic bullies and religious bullies - cannot be appeased; they have to be opposed with a stubbornness to match their own. This is never easy; these guys don't fight fair; "Robert's Rules of Order" is not one of their holy texts. But freedom on any front - and especially freedom of conscience - never comes to those who rock and wait, hoping someone else will do the heavy lifting. Christian realism requires us to see the world as it is, without illusions, and then take it on. Christian realism also requires love. But not a sentimental, dreamy love. Reinhold Niebuhr, who taught at Union Theological Seminary and wrestled constantly with applying Christian ethics to political life, put it this way: "When we talk about love we have to become mature or we will become sentimental. Basically love means...being responsible, responsibility to our family, toward our civilization, and now by the pressures of history, toward the universe of humankind."

    Christian realists aren't afraid to love. But just as the Irishman who came upon a brawl in the street and asked, "Is this a private fight or can anyone get in it?" we have to take that love where the action is. Or the world will remain a theatre of war between fundamentalists."

When dogma trumps free choice and individual responsibility, you get a collapsing nation; the USSR demonstrated this in large over fifty years.

The ONLY thing, aside from a wealth of natural resouece, which has given this country any claim to ascendancy among nations has been its assertion that individual freedoms are paramount. As long as we walk that talk, we can survive anything.

Bush's bully boys do not walk that walk, although they are too canny to dispense with the talk altogether.

That is the major crisis of our times, politically and socially.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: John Hardly
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 11:15 AM

I wonder if Moyers believes in Clapton?

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 11:31 AM

John, I realize that your opinion of Bill Moyers does not match mine - to say it mildly- but what is your opinion of the speech itself? Do you agree with any part of it? Strongly disagree? Why?

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: John Hardly
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:54 PM

Though I think Moyers has a chip on his shoulder that he wishes against hope that God would try to knock off -- the God he has long since left behind in a disappointed, angry huff -- I do think that the one truth he presents in the speech is that there are a significant number of those who would consider themselves part of the vague, unorganized "Christian right" who have terribly confused theology with patriotism, civil activism for sanctification, America for Israel.

But he overstates the "religious right's" influence by combining the "christian right's" intent with the government's exploitation of same. Their is little doubt that there are those in the government who empower themselves by exploiting the wishes of the religious right. There's a huge and meaningful gap between what the politicians promise and what they intend to, or even can, deliver.

And he overstates the "religious right's" infuence by careful inclusion of those who do not believe as he says (like me) in the numbers of the hoard, the seeds of paranoia about whom he is enriching and empowering himself. He is a demagogue and, as such, has a huge following of undiscerning (who are very quick to accept his definitions and characterizations of Christinanity without question) who relish his characterization of a Christianity that they would like nothing more than to hate. He feeds 'em the red meat of hatred that he knows they want (and will enrich and empower him). He then steps back and acts "above it all".

Moyers is a schnook.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:15 PM

John:

Demagoguery (as traditionally used) implies self-interest. Moyers isn't riding any particularpolitical wagon, he's simply arguing for making the political atmosphere a non-interference zone from religous interest, which by rights and tradition it should be. In fact he is using rhetoric -- NOT demagoguery -- to resist the uinfluence of political demagoguery.

I think far from being a shnook he is an intelligent and caring individual.

Now, I happen to think the same of you, so I urge you to revisit his exposition again and see if it looks any better the second time around.

Individual freedom is far more important than whether he has correctly assessed the interests of particular sub-groups.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: tarheel
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 03:11 PM

well...i'll tell you something EBBIE...if i had to choose from what i believe (my faith in God) and what BILL MOYERS preaches,i'll take my chances believing in GOD! since when did bill moyers become an authority on GOD? i've seen moyers on tv for years...and especially the pbs programs he produces and he is an ALL LIBERAL preacher of what he says and does and wants us all to consider him the finale word on anything...especially dealing with GOD!'sooo sad!

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 03:17 PM

Tarheel:

Like you, Moyers is a Christian who considers his faith as his own business. He doesn't argue as an expert on God, and I suspect he is FAR more interested in seeing that you (and everyone else) have the freedom to worship in your own way, unhampered by others' opinions, than he has any interest in interpreting God to man.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: GUEST,G
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 03:25 PM

Bobert, I am not bleeding to death - my taxes are lower than they have been for years. Or, do you mean literally? I feel fine so would you please explain what you meant?

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 03:35 PM

"he is an ALL LIBERAL preacher of what he says and does and wants us all to consider him the finale word on anything...especially dealing with GOD!'sooo sad!" tarheel

Tarheel, "LIBERAL" is not a swear word, no matter what you have been told in your church. Liberal, to me, means a spirit that is inclusive in wanting everyone to thrive- whether financially or in education or in health- , wants their country to be responsive to its citizens and respected in the world for reasons other than MIGHT. Perhaps even more important: a LIBERAL wants to be able to have SELF-RESPECT. And if we neglect the poor and the powerless we cannot respect ourselves.

I would go further, Tarheel, and say that if you so misunderstand what Bill Moyers said in that speech - and has said many other times- then in all likelihood you are one of the people he fears and despairs of.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: belter
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 04:41 PM

I agree with what Little Hawk said, "Christianity, when embraced by the sane, proposes a loving and forgiving God. So do other monotheistic faiths, when they are held by people who are reasonable and sane."
Reasonable and sane people are not the problem weather or not they believe in god. Unfortunatly, the idea of god becomes a powerful weapon in the hands of the unreasonable, and insane. A weapon that given the chance, they will use to minipulate, and control people, and empower themselves while reasonble and sane people stand by and watch it happen because they seam to be on god's side. After reading what I just wrote, I begin to think the problem is reasonble and sane people.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 04:50 PM

Ebbie - My opinion of the Old Testament God (with the exception of some of the inspired passages in Proverbs, Psalms, and a bit of Genesis) is basically this:

He is (at least as depicted in those pages) a vicous, dogmatic, paranoid, tyrranical, insecure, murderous, and totally insane supreme being made up by a primitive, violent tribal people who themselves, at their worst, embodied those very same characteristics, and therefore concocted a "god" in their own twisted image to prove how tremendously superior and special they were as compared to the various people whom they ruthlessly slaughtered in the process of stealing their land.

That good enough?

The Old Testament God has very, very little to do with the God that I believe in, who is the God of Love. Love does not judge, it does not condemn, it does not segregate or separate, it does not play favorites, it does not punish, it does not propose a "chosen people" or a "master race", and it does not justify mass murder in the name of some supposed grand ideal.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:08 PM

Thanks, LH. I expected no less from you.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: John Hardly
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 07:11 PM

nice Hallmark greeting card bullshit.

Loving does not turn off one's ability to judge. And judging others is a necessary part of life. I don't want a society free of judgement. Where did we EVER get the idea that that was utopia?

Love guides what one might do about the judgements one must make, but Love does, indeed, judge.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:18 PM

Perhaps you're not thinking of unconditional love, John. Beat your dog- he'll still love you tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: GUEST,Guess Who?
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:26 PM

"Loving does not turn off one's ability to judge."

You misunderstand the use of the word in that context, John Hardly. When it is said that God does not judge, it simply means that God does not judge the intrinsic worth of human beings.

To judge their actions, however, is appropriate. To judge people's intrinsic worth is not. Their actions may be destructive. If so, then judge it so, and deal with it appropriately. But do not judge the intrinsic worth of a human soul, because you are not equipped to do that, nor is anyone equipped to do it.

We can certainly all judge actions, behaviours, and situations, and decide on appropriate responses. We cannot judge human souls themselves, nor do we have the right to condemn or damn them.

That is why Love does not cast judgment on a human soul. Love is entirely capable of casting judgement on a wrongful action by a human. Love is fully capable of enforcing law and disciplining lawbreakers. No problem. That is a responsibility of Love.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: John Hardly
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 09:00 PM

God has already chosen a master race anyway. Potters.

...and guitar players.







oh......and mandolin players.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: GUEST,Banjo Bill
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 09:01 PM

No way! It's banjo players who rule.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: John Hardly
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 09:18 PM

"rule" is such an authoritarian word. Potters don't rule. We're just masterful. We merely hide our superiority under a cloud of bumbling ineptitude so that everyone won't envy us too much.


...oh, and Ebbie,

you don't know my dog!

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 09:33 PM

I must admit, John, that I haven't tried it. *G*

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 09:44 PM

Shouldn't that be "Masons rule?" **bg**

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 08:34 AM

I don't see anything of hatred or demagoguery in Bill Moyers. I see a man who is willing to call religeous zealots to account for their actions in the public realm. I think we need more people like that.

While I am not a Christian, I know many Christians and Jews that I admire (I confess that I do not know many Muslims, admirable or otherwise). However, anyone who actually reads the sacred texts of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam will find substantial portions of them to be vicious and intolerant in the extreme. To the best of my knowledge the leading figures in all three religions have never repudiated them, in whole or in part; at most they will claim to interpret portions of them in such a way that the vicious parts seem more benign (even Jesus, who preached love, explicitly refused to repudiate the Old Testament texts, but instead sought to "fullfill" them). Moreover, many of the adherents of all three religions have used, and continue to use, those same texts as their justification for murderous, hateful acts, and it is fair to say that a plain reading of the texts often seems to provide them with ample justification. As long as this continues to be the case, I will look warily on all three religions, and seek to limit their intrusion into the secular world I live in.

One of my favorite stories is the old one about the Emperor's new clothes. I think we need a few more people who are willing to point out the obvious fact that the Emperor (Pope, preacher, or what have you) is really naked.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 09:16 AM

A good speech.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 09:46 AM

Upon a quick re-read I realize that I had overlooked this:

"Moyers isn't riding any particular political wagon"

That is one of the things that bugs me the most about Moyers and those who love the guy...

.....he claims (and they believe in his) utter objectivity.

He is absolutely political and one would have to want to believe him to think otherwise.

His claim to objectivity is the height of his dishonesty and the depths of his demagoguery.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 09:53 AM

ABsolutely political? In what sense, John -- what political agenda is he espousing?


A

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 10:37 AM

Amos,

Even in the asking of your question, you are transparently pointing out the odd phenomenon -- those on the left do not think they are political or ideological. Those on the left just think (as Moyers) that they are *right*, *correct*, *objective*.

To those on the left (like Moyers) only those on the right are even capable of being political or ideological.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 12:18 PM

Well, if the question is so transparent, I will ask it too: ABsolutely political? In what sense, John -- what political agenda is he espousing?

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 12:34 PM

too many people of reason are willing to appease irrational people just because they are pious.

I love that sentence.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 12:46 PM

Seems to me that Moyers has two passions:

1. Getting Democrats into office.

Moyers is anti-war. Not anti-war like some mudcatters who, like me, begrudginly have to admit that, as a last resort of defense, find war a necessary evil. Moyers is anti-war. Period. Because of that, he finds more use in the election of Democrats.

Moyers is pro-social welfare programs. Moyers judges (hmmm.... he's "judgemental" *wink*) the value of a government by how many poor it can support. Therefore he finds the Democratic party a more useful tool toward that end.

That many here share Moyer's views does not make him "objective". It makes him in agreement with you.

2. Moyers is passionately anti-fundamental-Christianity. I do not mean that he is anti-fundamentalist-Christianity. He does not believe in the fundamentals of Christianity and expends much energy in trying to proselytize as many to his anti-fundamental point of view. Ironically, in this pursuit he trades on calling himself a Christian but he is Christian in two manners -- 1. in personal behavior (I assume) and 2. Like my Yamaha

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:09 PM

I do not at all see him as attacking the fundamentals of Christianity. He is quite clear in what he considers 'fundamentalists', namely those with a literal understanding of scriptures (be they Christian or Muslim scriptures). Those people I prefer calling 'literalists'.

Outside of the USA and perhaps even in the USA, a literal interpretation of the Bible only would be seen by very few as 'fundamental' to a Christian belief.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:19 PM

There are no traditional fundamentals of the faith, from a theological pov, that Moyers believes. He is, as you say, against "literalists" and "fundamenatlists", but he is also not a believer in the fundamentals of Christianity.

He beleives in many of the tenets of the faith -- do unto others, etc., but not for theological reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:24 PM

Yeah, I'm sure that he - and many others - benefits greatly in calling themselves Christian, when they are not. Kind of like 'deciding' to be gay- I'm sure that exposing oneself to ridicule, legal discrimination, violence and the negation of the American Dream makes homosexuality a good 'choice'.

We do know people who have made a career out of their christianity- we all respect people like Oral Roberts (certifiably insane, imo), Jerry Falwell (power-mad, bigotted, political flacky, imo), and Pat Robertson (disingenuous, dishonest, manipulative money grubber, imo), do we not? That's not even mentioning other stellar entities like Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Bakker and Tammy Faye.

Has Bill Moyers done any of those things? Where does anyone come off doubting his commitment to his faith?

People like Carl Sagan, Isaac Asimov, Stephen Hawkings, and many, many more, made reputations for themselves on the basis of intellectual brilliance. They spent their lives trying to teach people that belief in a religion is not needed, a relic from a simpler age.

If Bill Moyers wanted to - and if his personal beliefs permitted him to - he is fully capable of addressing people's needs on a secular basis. Instead, he approaches them from the viewpoint he himself holds and espouses.

He is so far from being a demogogue that I can only wonder if you are deliberately misstating what you know to be true.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:42 PM

How does calling himself a Christian expose him to ridicule? ...especially when he is one of the most vocal against the type of Christians that you listed.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:56 PM

1. Getting Democrats into office.

Moyers is anti-war. Not anti-war like some mudcatters who, like me, begrudginly have to admit that, as a last resort of defense, find war a necessary evil. Moyers is anti-war. Period. Because of that, he finds more use in the election of Democrats.


This seems to imply that the pursuit of war is a preference in non-Democrats.

War is not a necessary evil, it is simply an evil. I grant you readily that we have had times in our history when it really seemed no alternative was left. But I believe this was always attributable to entrenched self-interest and a failure in imagination.

Some people are more interested than others in avoiding the evil of violence and slaughter. No-one who knows the agony of war will seek another one.

I don't know if that makes them Republicans and Democrats or not, though.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 02:02 PM

"This seems to imply that the pursuit of war is a preference in non-Democrats."


No. It merely faces the reality that the Democratic Party has, since the Viet Nam conflict, been the home of the anti-war group.

Some may see how that makes the Republican party a better option for realists who understand that war may, in times of National defense, become necessary. You may think that never to be so. I bet you wouldn't be elected from either party.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 02:05 PM

Debates about who is and is not a "true" Christian are unlikely to be resolved in this forum; we have a better chance of reaching consensus on the old "what is folk?" topic.

As far as I can tell, when you have a very long collection of books (the Christian Bible, incorporating both Old and New Testaments, in various editions and translations), written by many different authors over a long period of time, incorporating many different writing styles (some of them very poetic/impressionistic), and acknowledged by most thinking people to be open to a great range of interpretations, you are unlikely to ever reach consensus on exactly what it means. And if we can't agree on what the Christian scriptures mean, we're not likely to agree on whose interpretation is most accurate, nor on whose behavior is most exemplary according to the book's teachings. People have been arguing about these topics, on the most basic level, for thousands of years, yet we are no closer to resolving the issue than we were when those debates started. The best we can hope for, probably, is to agree to stop killing each other over it.

If Moyers calls himself a Christian, I'll take him at his word. He certainly has as much right to his interpretation as anyone else I have heard, including those prominent individuals who have made quite a comfortable living off of their status as Christians.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 02:17 PM

Thus, the ultimate question:

What is Christian Folk?

...and if it is played in a forest where nobody can hear it, is it really Christian Folk?

Whistle Stop,

I don't disagree with your idea that what is Christian is nearly impossible to nail down. That's why I'm trying carefully to NOT say that Bill Moyers is not a Christian. He certainly is by SOME definition -- just not any traditional theological one.

And here's the ultimate irony: Moyers is just as vehemently trying to narrow the definition of Christianity with which he wants to associate himself. He is not neutral on that question EITHER. So, if it bugs you that I should try to define terms, it should equally bug you that he does as well.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 03:55 PM

"and if it is played in a forest where nobody can hear it, is it really Christian Folk?"

John, that reminds me of the book I'm reading. It's an account of growing up in a polygamous Mormon society, long after the official Mormon church forbade it.

Evidently some of the fundamentalist Mormon continue(d) practicing it on the basis of their belief that God not only sanctions it but requires it.

They have been pursued and harassed by both secular and religious factions ever since. At times the fundamentalists met in the forested mountains, about the only place they felt free to be themselves.

It's very interesting. Brings home the fact that our beliefs, being so different, so contradictory, can hardly be defended, even if we can define them.

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 04:03 PM

The Vietname war, in your mind, was a necessary expedition in defense of our national interest, John??

I'd be interested to hear that view, if you actually hold it.

Never mind the current one.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 911 & The Sport of God (Moyers speech)
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 05:44 PM

Amos, that was clearly not my point.