BS: They both lost the debate

Subject: BS: They both lost the debate
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 01:33 AM

I just finished watching the 3rd debate. Kerry had every opportunity to nail Bush on domestic policy but he blew it all when he said something about "marrying up." That was such a tacky thing to say. I decided that Kerry was a tacky politician. Bush, on the other hand said some funny, kinda "down home" stuff that would really appeal to most Americans. Made him seem almost human.

The debate was boring and not very informative. It was as if they were two employees who work for the same company and had on their best professional faces. You would never guess that this was a competition.

I can't stand either one of them. Good luck, America.

d

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 05:43 AM

ah yes, but the problem is, there has to be a winner. that's the rules. we're down to these two.

One of them gets the job of deciding how wealthy, safe and happy all Americans are going to to be.

So whose finger on the nuclear trigger. The one with the perpetual bush baby look of expectation, or the scary looking one fresh from the crypt.....

Its a tricky one all right. Apparently theres a lot of money involved.......

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 08:35 AM

Wow, this is the ONLY thread on Presidential Debacle #3, and it has only TWO posts? The morning after?

Man, Kerry must have lost big time. Reuters snap poll showed Bush up by 1 point, all the other polls still show them even or where they were going into the debate (ie Kerry is still showing ahead of Bush in the polls that showed him that way before last night).

So! Now that the last one is done, is anyone ready to make any fearless predictions on the winner of the horse race?

My prediction: the Bush camp has a helluva October surprise up it's sleeve, which will hit the news sometime around the 20th-25th, and it will be four more years. This Democratic candidate is, to put it plainly, just a miserably poor candidate, and so hasn't been able to capitalize on the widespread discontent with the current occupant. They are tied now, but the October surprise will insure an easy coast across the finish line for Bush, because Kerry's support is thin, spotty, and mushy.

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 08:42 AM

I ignore the so-called "debates." They are not debates; they have degenerated into name-calling brawls of misleading statistics and information on both sides.

I wish to heck that they were debates instead of slick promotional pieces pandering to what the politicos perceive as the policy issues.

Neither won, neither lost. The potential voters, however....

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 08:48 AM

I just finished watching the debate on C-span.


I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush


..xx..e















I DO believe we can beat Bush..........

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 08:54 AM

Amazing how widespread the opinions are from the same results. As far as I am concerned Kerry walked off with the points on every question, while Bush folkled around trying to be cute because he could not be very competent. Kerry's ability to communicate is so far above Bush's as to offer no comparison. The polls I saw saw 70% giving the debate to Kerry on a questuion by question basis. The man is head and shoulders a better candidate even with his flaws.

A

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 08:57 AM

"It was as if they were two employees who work for the same company"

Well, yeah! That is exactly what they are. Look, if there were two committee leaders in a big multi-national corporation competing over who gets to run the cushy new project next year, and they both had to conduct a demo of how they were going to do it and get help from their teams...what would it look like? Pretty much like what you see in these lacklustre debates.

These guys are flunkies for the same huge $y$tem and there is nothing the public can do about it. The $y$tem itself is the problem, just like it was in the old Soviet Union (or the new Russia, for that matter). This is not democracy, it's a rigged game, bought and paid for.

Rubber stamp your chosen corporate flunkie in November, and settle back for 4 more years of betrayal and deceit. As long as they can divide you bitterly against each other (over hostile partisan lines) they will conquer you.

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 08:59 AM

I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush
I DO believe we can beat Bush..........


(Sorry Amos, I WISH I could love the man, but it's got to be enough for now that I'm voting for him.)

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:01 AM

"... But you saw the smiles o' the gentry
And the laughter of lords at their gains
When the poor hunt the poor across mountain and moor
The rich man can keep them in chains."

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:06 AM

And I'm sure you have your eyes closed and are clicking your heels together as you say that Ebbie? ;-)

The prospect of 4 more years is more than a bit daunting, isn't it? But in order to beat Bush, we needed a strong Dem candidate. We didn't get one of those. Instead we got "the most electable" who wasn't really electable at all in the current circumstance, and who ran an idiotic summer campaign on Vietnam, instead of the issues facing us today.

Some pundit I heard on the news last night before the debacle, said that domestic issues aren't really Kerry's strong suit, that in reality, as a senator, he had always been involved in foreign relations, the military, etc. I think that is dead on accurate. Which begs the question: who chose to drape the candidate in the "domestic strengths" garment when this emperor was dressed with the invisible clothes? There is a reason why no one had heard of Kerry before he ran for president, after a couple of decades in the senate. He has no real domestic strengths. His supposed strength on the environment are easily cancelled out by his support of free trade, national security interests, etc etc.

But it doesn't look to me as if Kerry is going to get in though. He just doesn't have the momentum he needs to get past the post with an October surprise at this point.

So, I'm sure the Dems and Anybody But Bushers will blame Nader again, rather than themselves for choosing such a piss poor candidate AGAIN.

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:07 AM

Your right again LH...
I'm amazed at the effort the Americans expend on changing one figurhead for another. Whatever the result ,the system remains.
Capitalism, the worst misfortune ever to afflict humanity.
If only people like Ellenpoly would start to question that system,we might begin to make real progress, both for the health of the planet and our own happiness...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: jaze
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:37 AM

What really, was John Dean's downfall? All I can come up with is the media making him look like an idiot because of that yowl. Was that really what did it?

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: GUEST,curious
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 10:08 AM

Little Hawk: How did you like the slap in the face towards Canada that Bush used in the second debate to show why we should not get drugs from Canada? (I mean the part about not knowing if Canadian drugs are safe).

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 10:09 AM

John Dean's mistake was in working for Richard Nixon...Howard Dean's problem was mainly his public image (and the yowl didn't help).
He was perceived as 'not electable'....The Republicans were itching to have him to rake over the coals.

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 11:16 AM

"The yowl" was a bit unfair really - as I understand it, he was shouting in a noisy environment, but the microphone didn't pick up the background noise he was shouting against, so he sounded off his nut.

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: GUEST,Ellenpoly
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 12:00 PM

Hey akenaton, I questioned the system last time and voted for Nader.

This year I will put aside my own feelings about Kerry, which are anything but positive or hopeful that he will be a jot better than most of those who have been in that office for so many sad long years...

And Like the Cowardly Lion in Oz (I think you were referring to me, not Ebbie, GUEST), I will continue to say the mantra over and over...until I DO believe it-at least until after the election returns.

After that, I'll go back to hating this system that forces me to vote for someone I have no faith in, no liking for, and no wish to be President other than to supplant the man who has hijacked that position for the past four years.

It's shit, I hate it, don't think I feel any other way about it.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 12:15 PM

I don't know John Kerry. But he has th e earmarks of a decent man. He stands up straight and says what he sees and is willing to talk to people directly without BSing them -- my impression. Bush won't talk to anyone who ISN'T in his reality-distortion field.

A

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 12:26 PM

"he has the earmarks of a decent man"

-Amos



"So are they all, all honourable men"


-Mark Anthony in "Julius Caesar"

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 12:28 PM

Sorry all.


I think I need to stick to non-political threads until after the smoke clears.




(A very depressed Ellenpoly)

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: JennyO
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 12:31 PM

Never mind Ellenpoly, have a donut (guaranteed whelk-free) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 12:35 PM

Thanks, hon.


(It's times like this I REALLY wish I drank, but sugar has got to be the next best thing.)

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 12:53 PM

EP:

I don't think so. The Bush web is a web of deceit and misrepresentation.

A

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 12:57 PM

And Kerry's is linked to the Munster's web-site.

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 01:56 PM

"this system that forces me to vote for someone I have no faith in,"

Here is the disconnect of which akenaton and so many others (self included) speak. No one is holding a gun to your head to vote for Kerry.

If it is an alternative to the duopoly you seek, a vote for Nader or Cobb or any other indie or third party candidate is a vote FOR someone you would like to see as president.

If what you are complaining about is the duopoly system itself, why would you support it by voting for one of the two, instead of staying home? Why waste your vote on someone you don't really want? A vote for Bush or Kerry is a vote to maintain and support the system you purport to hate. Why would anyone keep doing that?

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 03:03 PM

"he has the earmarks of a decent man"

That sounds distinctly like a Bushism. You've been infected, Amos...

There is a reason to vote for Kerry, Ellenpoly, other than just becuase he isn't Bush. While Bush is there, I can't see how there is any realistic possibility of any serious politics other than trying to replace him. Once he's gone the real arguments about what you need to do to make things better for everyone can can take place.

The fact that, in UK terms, Kerry is a fairly rightwing Conservative is neither here nor there.

If there's a skunk in the living room, discussions about how best to arrange the furniture get set aside. If you don't manage to get the skunk out soon, the whole place could be uninhabitable.

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 03:38 PM

To echo EP above:

I believe Kerry will win.
I believe Kerry will win.
I believe Kerry will win.

Repeat as necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: saulgoldie
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 04:03 PM

Speaking of October surprises...did anyone hear about the break-in to a Democratic party office in Ohio where they stole ONLY the 'puters with the most sensitive campaign information on them? I think in a fair, straight-up fight, even Kerry, who is not that well-loved by many Dems could dust Bush off like a gnat.

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 04:08 PM

Kevin:

I don't get what you thought was a Bushism -- having seen Kerry only a few times I have to judge on sketchy, representative information ("earmarks") to assess his character. From what I gather, he is a righteous dude.

A

(Earmarks comes from livestock marking of ears to identify owners of hogs, I believe).

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 04:36 PM

Dianavan,

There was only one man on that stage who had any intelligent thing to say. He was not a Bushite attack dog but a poised gentleman with facts and compassion. I think that those who didn't get that had this so-called debate lost on them. Kerry made valid points and responded to every question. Bush dodged all of them. We obviously watched different "debates".

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 04:46 PM

"I think in a fair, straight-up fight, even Kerry, who is not that well-loved by many Dems could dust Bush off like a gnat."

I think this has been a fair, straight-up fight. What part of this campaign hasn't been "fair"? Both sides have engaged in below the belt attacks, negative attacks, etc. It's been fought as well as any campaign can be in the current electoral system.

So where's the beef?

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: GUEST,Donuel
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 04:49 PM

Its high stakes poker
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/kerryrawdeal.jpg


If Bush wins the neocons keep control the CIA

If Kerry wins the DOD will scale back the CIA control of the war.

In every election the choice is either the CIA or DOD.


divide and conquer indeed.

Dean and and Nader were clearly outside the Military Industrial Complex. For an outsider to win the election is like the Red Sox going all the way.

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 05:27 PM

"earmarks" is what I was referrimng to, Amos. I know livestock does have identification marks on ears, but the expression has never made it through to ordinary speech over here in that kind of context - it'd generally be "the hallmarks of ..." Silverware rather than hog-farming.

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 05:39 PM

I didn't watch the 3rd debate this time. We were reheasing music and our hosts do not have a TV but we did listen to it when we were through unraveling harmonies. I agree that Kerry won, as does the polling of the various undecided, but he missed a few chances to really hammar Bush on the fiscal crisis, half a trillion over budget, that's he's racked up this year, and Bush calls himself a fiscal conservative.

I thought the most interesting foray from Bush was his image of "our armies of compassion bringing freedom and liberty to people all over the world." It's probably a reworking of his "compassionate conservatism" applied on an international level. Maybe we should roll this one out as a song to the tune of "Unward Christain Soldiers" except it would probably work for Bush. I would love to see this man dropped off the back of a pick-up truck in Sadr City; I bet he'd really draw a crowd!

I guess I'll watch the debate this evening on the VCR and see if I missed a smirk or two.

I liked the line about "marrying up." I thought it showed some spontaneous humor on the part of Kerry. Even Bush seemed amused.

I find annonymous guests tedious. Ken Rove, why don't you just post under your real name?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: jaze
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 07:10 PM

What Guest Frank said. Kerry actually once complimented Bush. Bush was never once as much a gentleman.

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 07:57 PM

I would also kind of like to see Bush dropped off the back of a pickup truck in Sadr City...along with Karl Rove and Dick Cheney...but I don't believe in capital punishment, so...

Here's what really worries me, though. Bush and Kerry are both alumni of a secretive society at Yale called: Skull and Bones

Think on the name and you get the drift of the energy it carries. Not good. Whichever of them wins, Skull and Bones gets to put one of its graduates in the Oval Office. You don't get into Skull and Bones in the first place unless you're a son of the wealthy, and you don't get into it without doing some very weird stuff to pass initiation requirements.

Here's a little quote about it:

"KEVIN PHILLIPS: Well, I hate to overdo the secret societies because the average person has no idea of this. I went to Harvard Law School, and Harvard has these secret societies, too, but the ones at Yale, I think, if anything are more influential, and it's sorta hard to cold turkey right in and say, my god, Skull and Bones, this is virtually like a diplomatic or international business piracy. You can almost see the pirate flag, but they all take it very seriously, because Admiral Harriman, instead of going to Harvard and getting involved in the "Porks," so to speak, which was the big club up at Harvard, he went to Yale and did Skull and Bones. There was a crowd of people who were involved in operations like National CitiBank and Guaranteed Trust and just a whole lot of people who were major players in finance were Skull and Bones. And the crowd that was at W.S. Harriman was full of Skull and Bones people, and Prescott Bush was Skull and Bones. A lot of these people who were Skull and Bones wound up in the intelligence services, or they were assistant secretaries for aviation and the war department and things like this. It was a whole network."

These are people you don't want to cross, you don't want to mess with, and you certainly don't want being elected to rule over you if you value your freedom one iota.

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 07:59 PM

What do they have to do to pass the initiation requirements?

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 08:15 PM

Go to Google, and do some searches for the following:

Skull and Bones, Bush, Kerry

You'll find plenty to read about. I don't wish to say any more about it right now.

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:19 PM

LH:

John Kerry is schooled in integrity a LOT deeper than he is schooled into loyalty tot he S&B bloodline.

Relax--that dog won't even wake up and leave the kennel, let alone hunt.

A

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:41 PM

A

Can you offer any support for that last post, other than your own opinion?

B

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:52 PM

It is only an educated opinion, BB -- I grew up surrounded by Yalies, and I know their type. My brother, father, older borther, and grandfathers on both sides were esteemed Yalies, and several of my relatives were professors of one or another degree there.

This whole Skull and Bones secret voodoo hoodoo is a bunch of callow mumbo-jumbo fir for the front page of the National Enquirer.

But don't tell Georgie-boy that. For one thing he probably took it serious. For another he doesn't know the word "callow". He didn't attend class that day.


A

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 09:57 PM

So, you really don't know if Kerry OR Bush "is schooled in integrity a LOT deeper than he is schooled into loyalty tot he S&B bloodline."


" I grew up surrounded by Yalies, and I know their type. My brother, father, older borther, and grandfathers on both sides were esteemed Yalies, and several of my relatives were professors of one or another degree there."

I do not doubt your educated opinion, other than to point out that GW was a Yaly... SO why do you apply a different set of standards to him, if your opinion is based on Yalies?


"But don't tell Georgie-boy that. For one thing he probably took it serious. For another he doesn't know the word "callow". He didn't attend class that day."


OK, so you would agree that I can say

But don't tell Johnny-boy that. For one thing he probably took it serious. For another he doesn't know the word "callow". He didn't attend class that day.


Makes just as much sense, when you are making judgements on Yalies...

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 10:08 PM

Yale makes a helluva lock.

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 10:12 PM

You know perfectly well that Kerry knows exactly what the word callow means, and W probably doers not. No, I would not say what you suggest.

A

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 10:18 PM

Guest, Frank -

Kerry is obviously more intelligent than Bush but it depends entirely on how he wants to put that intelligence to work. These guys acted more like buddies than opponents. I find it interesting that they both belonged to skull and bones. I had never heard of it before. After reading about it (thanks, Little Hawk) it is no wonder I find the two so similar.

Amos,

You are a true democrat and I applaud your loyalty. I do think you need to start thinking a little more "outside the box" to understand that neither party provides much hope for America, let alone the world. I understand what you mean about pushing the dems to the left after the election but, sadly enough, I think its a done deal - doesn't matter who is elected, THEY still win.

d

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 10:20 PM

dianavan,

Read also about the Illuminati and Majestic-12

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 10:33 PM

and Bohemian Grove

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 10:37 PM

A

"You know perfectly well that Kerry knows exactly what the word callow means, and W probably doers not. "


Actually, I suspect that both of them do- YOU just show a prejudice because of political beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 10:38 PM

In the second debate, Bush stated that he hasn't supported importing cheaper drugs from Canada because he wants to make sure the drugs are "pure and safe" for the 'murcan people, and he doesn't know that Canadian drugs are safe.

In the last debate, he said that since the US is 50% short on flu vaccine, he is negotiating with Canada.

Can't have it both ways, son.

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 10:43 PM

Bush is so fulla, well, he is ya know!

Subject: RE: BS: They both lost the debate
From: Amos
Date: 14 Oct 04 - 10:45 PM

You are a true democrat and I applaud your loyalty. I do think you need to start thinking a little more "outside the box" to understand that neither party provides much hope for America, let alone the world.

Sadly enough, apathy is a popular commodity and the belief that it is all too late and nothing can be done is an easily used, popular and cheap excuse for finding a way through situations and using the principles of free communication and informed democratic process to better conditions.

Our entire history in this nation has been predicated on the experimental proposition that men and women are smart enough to evolve their own destiny. That's why we broke away from the last King George who thought we needed a more intrusive government (no matter what he said). I am not a Democrat in the partisan sense, madam, but a democrat in the Jeffersonian sense, and I believe that free men and women can and have made the world a better place. I believe they can and have made the world worse, as well. Which way it goes depends on you -- and sitting back regretting how it is too late for any good to be done is not going to help any good cause or get any good thing done.   I urge you to bestir youraself and seize the day. It will not come back.

Never mind the Skull and Bones or the Trilateral Commission. Real people casting real votes and pushing for real changes will make a difference. Join them.

A