BS: why teachers despair and quit

Subject: RE: BS: why teachers despair and quit
From: meself
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 02:17 PM

"Should my son give up on teaching before he begins?"

Depends. If he really wants to teach, then he should give it a shot, and see how it goes. Some people, because of their brains and personalities, don't get terribly dragged down by all the stress, pressures, and general BS. Many young people, though, find themselves carrying on through a grim determination - they're going to make it to the end of the year no matter what, just the way their grandfather fought to the top of that hill and liberated Europe. Contrary to conventional wisdom, I'm not sure that that's the best attitude. Sometimes I think it would be better for a beginning teacher who's having a miserable time to just take a look at themselves, take a look at the situation, and say, This isn't a match - I'm outta here. And go work at McDonald's, if need be, till they work out something better.

One of my sons has considered going into teaching. I've neither encouraged nor discouraged him. My advice was that if he honestly thought he would like teaching, to go ahead, but if he was just thinking of it as something he "could do" with a History degree, then I wouldn't particularly recommend it.

Subject: RE: BS: why teachers despair and quit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 04:07 PM

I challenge faulty information, Keith. You came up with a throwaway remark and are now trying to support it with unjustified extrapolations. Just go away and look it up properly instead of trying to cling to your sacred first statement. It's just wrong. Deal with it.

Subject: RE: BS: why teachers despair and quit
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 05:03 PM

I have forty years [experience teaching].

Two observations, rofessor:

1. You didn't learn much in those 40 years.

2. God help your pupils.

Subject: RE: BS: why teachers despair and quit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 06:24 PM

From The Guardian, six months ago.

(Sally Weale Education correspondent)

Monday 24 October 2016 19.21 BST Last modified on Friday 17 February 2017 11.20 GMT

Almost a third of teachers who began their career in 2010 quit the classroom within five years of qualifying, according to government figures.

Of the 21,400 who began teaching in English state schools in 2010, 30% had quit by 2015, the schools minister, Nick Gibb, confirmed in a written parliamentary answer.

More than one in 10 (13%) of newly qualified teachers left after a year of teaching, meaning 87% continued to work in the classroom, a proportion the government says is largely unchanged since 1996.

That figure fell to 82% after two years in profession, 77% after three years, 73% after four years and 70% after five years, according to the response to a question by Liberal Democrat MP Greg Mulholland.

I reproduce this for the benefit of those who don't let facts get in the way of prejudice. You know who you are!

Subject: RE: BS: why teachers despair and quit
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 07:47 PM

i dunno. you're all very judgemental.

a cursory look at society should be enough to tell you that the world is full of people not really doing what they want to. to earn a living. why should teaching be any different. tell you worried young teacher friend - just because you're struggling now doesn't mean you al ways will be. perhaps its not the right branch of teaching for you - teaching has many mansions.

i think it was one of the beat poets who said DH Lawrence tell you that sex between men and women should be a wondrous loving beautiful thing like running into a cathedral. by and large - its not.

it would be nice if all the lessons were great and all the teachers great - but common sense tells us that it will never be. Its a good job. And even if you aren't the world's greatest you will achieve competence if you try hard enough. And you will help some children - even in the most terrible of schools and classes.

if everything was easy and came naturally to us - we'd all be perfect.   sorry to be preachy - i guess it comes from being a folksinger.

Subject: RE: BS: why teachers despair and quit
From: Iains
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 04:10 AM

Plenty of links for those that can be bothered:

Teacher Recruitment and Retention | National Union of Teachers - NUT
https://www.teachers.org.uk/edufacts/teacher-recruitment-and-retention
There is increasing evidence of a crisis in teacher recruitment and retention just ... Despite the inclusion of Teach First applicants in the ITT statistics, the overall ...

Highest teacher leaving rate in a decade - and 6 other things we ...
schoolsweek.co.uk/highest-teacher-leaving-rate-in-a-decade-and-6-other-things-we-le...

Jun 30, 2016 - Record numbers of teachers are leaving the profession bolstering claims of ... the National Association of Head Teachers, said: "Official statistics mask the .... This is a very worrying trend for the UK and the prognosis is that it is ...

Nearly half of England's teachers plan to leave in next five years ...
https://www.theguardian.com › Education › Teachers' workload
Mar 22, 2016 - Guardian survey shows huge concerns over workload with teachers in ... so hard that they would be indistinguishable from the UK's "best in the ...

Four in 10 new teachers quit within a year | Education | The Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com › Education › Teaching
Mar 31, 2015 - 'Teachers are exhausted, stressed and burnt out in a profession being monitored to within an inch of its life.' Photograph: Agencja Free/Alamy.

Nearly 50,000 quit - around one in 12 full-time teachers, according the ...
www.mirror.co.uk › News › UK News
Jan 30, 2015 - Teachers quitting profession in record numbers as 4,000 leave ... teachers - according the Department for Education's own statistics .....

[PDF]Teachers - Parliament
researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7222/CBP-7222.pdf
Mar 21, 2017 - www.parliament.uk/commons-library ... Statistics on teacher retention. 7. 3. Government initiatives to encourage teacher recruitment. 9.

Subject: RE: BS: why teachers despair and quit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 04:12 AM

Steve,
I challenge faulty information, Keith.

It was not faulty, as my linked quotes proved.
You just had to have a go because it was me, and just made yourself look stupid again.

Your "information" was an understatement of the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: why teachers despair and quit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 05:10 AM

Give it a rest, Keith. You are being utterly pointless.

Talking of a recruitment and retention crisis, the early 1970s was a terrible time. Teacher turnover in London was out of control. My first job was in Poplar in east London. I'd whacked in a few job applications and blow me if I didn't get two interviews on the same day, one in the morning and one in the afternoon. I was the only applicant for both jobs. I took the job at the morning interview and had to ring the other school to tell them I wasn't coming. The head teacher came to the phone and went absolutely ballistic with me, pleading with me to reconsider. It wasn't because I had a stellar reputation, I can tell you that! Edward Heath's monthly pay rises triggered automatically by inflation (a popular but doomed policy that got out of hand), coupled with a major pay review, saw my salary double in twelve months. My first week's pay was £22. The headmistress, Sister Teresa, lent me half a month's pay so that I could pay the rent. The retention issue today has a very different cause. Bureaucracy, overwhelming amounts of paperwork, constant inspection threats and sheer overwork. At least we didn't have that. I doubt whether anyone can demonstrate a concomitant dramatic improvement in standards.

Subject: RE: BS: why teachers despair and quit
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 05:30 AM

does it matter, you two what precise percentage of teachers drop out?

a lot do - despite the wages not really being too bad.

the reasons for this are many and varied. rather like all government workers - police, army, social workers....successive governments abuse, then idealise, underfund and generally bugger about in an amateurish way, and expect too much from human beings whom they thrust into impossible circumstances.

The thing is though - its a difficult job. Very hard work. it takes imagination, realism, a lot of patience and though no one will brief you on the fact, a degree of low cunning. plus experience, The third time you teach Richard II , Seamus Heaney or THe WAsteland to A level kids will be be better than the first time. and that's tough on you and tough on the kids you teach first time.

that's why having a high drop out rate isn't great for the profession. you DO get better and more mature in your response to problems.

The greatest problem in this gig are the snake oil salesman. THe guys that tell you the problems will all be solved by dismantling what has been achieved.

Subject: RE: BS: why teachers despair and quit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 09:05 AM

Just trying to shake him off, Big Al.

Subject: RE: BS: why teachers despair and quit
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 09:52 AM

I began my teaching career in the very early seventies, and had to complete only three short Teaching Practices at three different schools during my postgraduate teacher training year. My tutor was approached by all three Heads asking him to sound me out as to accepting a post at their schools. In addition, two other Heads asked him to recommend a promising student and he gave them my name too. So in effect I had five job offers before I had even qualified. This wasn't because of any outstanding talent on my part (although I did achieve a Distinction), but as Steve says, there was a serious shortage of new teachers.

In Scotland there was a two-year probation period after qualifying, and 'probationary teachers' were much cheaper. One's salary went up after successfully completing the two years. So my cheapness was also a factor in their enthusiasm!

I accepted the poshest school, and enjoyed it, but moved to a much poorer district where the social deprivation was appalling, and absolutely adored everything.

Subject: RE: BS: why teachers despair and quit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 01:50 PM

Al,

does it matter, you two what precise percentage of teachers drop out?

It does not.
Ask Steve we he chose to make an issue of it.

Subject: RE: BS: why teachers despair and quit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 07:00 PM

Knock it off and move on, Keith. Nobody cares, honestly.

Subject: RE: BS: why teachers despair and quit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 03:54 AM

I am not arguing about the issue, just objecting to being unable to express an opinion or make an accurate statement about anything without being attacked by you.

It happened recently on the GPS discussion.
It is like a vendetta.

Subject: RE: BS: why teachers despair and quit
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 04:39 AM

At the risk of sounding like Joyce Grenfell, we'd all get on a lot better if some folk would desist from being bullies and attacking one poster in a pack like nasty playground tykes. This is about teachers leaving the profession, not 'Let's all pile in on top of Keith'.

Subject: RE: BS: why teachers despair and quit
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 07:03 AM

Keith - my apologies if I piled in on top of you.

Subject: RE: BS: why teachers despair and quit
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 08:00 AM

Keith has a very long track record of hectoring people interminably. It isn't stalking but his victim act is laughable.

Subject: RE: BS: why teachers despair and quit
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 08:13 AM

I've just remembered this (going senile I expect):-

When I was teaching in Scotland, early seventies, a new thing came in whereby all teachers had to be give 'Non-Contact Time' of 30 minutes every school day. Money was provided to employ extra staff to cover the two-and-a-half hours per week for every teacher. The time was intended to be spent preparing lessons, marking work, assembling equipment and planning etc. It was a real godsend, and I'm wondering if it still pertains 'up there'?
In my English school (I was there for over twenty years) there was nothing like this, and one was expected to work after hours (I often didn't leave the building until gone 5pm, and always appeared at 7.30 am to get stuff done. We all took work home with us too, and dragged ourselves in during holidays. If one hadn't done this, one would have drowned under the backlog.

Subject: RE: BS: why teachers despair and quit
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 08:26 AM

objecting to being unable to express an opinion or make an accurate statement about anything without being attacked by you

Nobody can expect to rehash ideologically spin-doctored bollocks and then pontificate that it's an "accurate statement" without getting called out on it.

Subject: RE: BS: why teachers despair and quit
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 09:03 AM

My Mother qualified as a teacher in 1966, I remember her bringing work home almost every night. She would work at the dining room table for at least an hour a night and often 2 to 3 hours. This was in addition to tending 3 children and a husband.

Subject: RE: BS: why teachers despair and quit
From: bobad
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 09:27 AM

we'd all get on a lot better if some folk would desist from being bullies and attacking one poster in a pack like nasty playground tykes

Unfortunately there are some posters here who are compelled to belittle others in order to bolster their own egos. Envious individuals also make themselves feel better by belittling others. It's no different here at Mudcat than outside.

Subject: RE: BS: why teachers despair and quit
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 10:13 AM

My two lovely nieces graduated from University six or seven years ago. I kept my mouth shut, but was praying that they didn't want to become teachers. Fortunately, the both became involved in financial advising and banking. Phew!

I certainly would be very worried if a child of mine (I haven't got one, but still...) went into teaching. The stresses and strains are in my view not worth the money.

Subject: RE: BS: why teachers despair and quit
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 01:23 PM

Jack,
Nobody can expect to rehash ideologically spin-doctored bollocks and then pontificate that it's an "accurate statement" without getting called out on it.

I completely agree with that statement Jack, but it bears no resemblance to my post on this issue.