prayer request

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 09:21 PM

In 3 years that have been a total of 31 threads with "healing" in the title. Of those 11 were other than requests for healing, so there've really been a total of 20.

Also in 3 years there have been 12 threads with "thoughts" in the title which pertain to a request for good thoughts, etc.

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 09:40 PM

Yup - and here's one of the more ludicrous ones: (click). It did give Gargoyle an opportunity to come up with a rather clever parody: (click). The healing/prayer threads make perfect material for satire. Do you really want to start that again, Kat?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 09:40 PM

Just a suggestion--in answer to Sharon's post. Surely most of us know onee mail or PM name to send a message to; that one person could pass it on via either e mail or PM......and keep it off the main board.

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Lighthouse 65
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 09:41 PM

Joe Offer and others - you really lost me on this thread. Here someone asks for a bit of help for a defenseless baby and all you guys do is go off on a tangent about the word prayer. Get over it! Just a place for music? Have you checked the majority of your threads lately? Joe Offer has gone down 100% with his lack of humanity on this one!

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 09:59 PM

Lighthouse, I have as much sympathy for the child as anybody else here, but that's not the issue. As Bill said, Spam sent in the name of that child is still Spam.
The people who fill your e-mail with Spam are good, sincere people who firmly believe in whatever they're selling - but to me, it's an annoying intrusion. Same with this. It's not a request for support for anybody that Mudcatters know - we have no personal relationship with this child, and the original requestor's relationship with the child is tenuous, at best. If you need somebody to pray for, go look in the obituaries of your local paper and pray for the families of the dead people. If you want to pray for strangers or send them good thoughts or whatever you want to do for them, that's all very nice - but can't you do that somewhere other than Mudcat?
If you want to continue this sort of thing, that's your right. If I want to continue to complain about it and point out how ludicrous it is, that's MY right.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Lighthouse 65
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 10:04 PM

And if I want to point out how ludicrous and unfeeling your posts are that is MY right.

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Shields Folk
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 10:07 PM

And your POINT is?

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Lighthouse 65
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 10:10 PM

And why is prayer off limits here but a thread entitled Non Music Erection accepted?

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Shields Folk
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 10:13 PM

The very fact that this issue is covering three threads backs up Joe's point. Prayer is not the issue.

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 10:41 PM

You already have started it, Joe, with your first posting in this thread, where the debate did not belong. You ignored PM's and Susan's request to take it off this thread.

I state, again, we have grown, we have learned, we have not had contentiousness in one of these kinds of threads, to the extent you've used an an example, in a long time. They also have not taken up much space.

I ask, again, why aren't you in the really stupid threads posting the same kind of opposition to using up space and causing strife? There are many more of them, from the past week, than three!

I think you have been very judgemental and rigid as well as vociferous in making sure the majority of people who posted their well wishes to this thread know just how unhappy you are with that and how stupid you think we all are for doing so.

If you don't like it, don't read it, stay out of it, start a different thread. Simple.

kat

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Pseudolus
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 10:59 PM

This is a very dissappointing thread to me. Not long ago I started a thread about my nephew, who I readily admit is not a Mudcatter only being 5 yrs old, who has been diagnosed with Muscular Dystrophy. The response I got in that thread was amazing. I think some of you have under estimated the good extracted by the original poster knowing there are folks out there that have a good word, even if it was a little repetitive. I felt great after reading that thread and so did my sister who has never been to Mudcat before that. She's read it probably a dozen times now. It's sad to find out that the thread that brought so much support to me just doesn't belong here.....that's fine, I won't bring my troubles here again.

A music site? Yeah I agree that this is a music site in the same way a pub can be a music venue. I suspect that are people in the pub discussing things other than music however. The pub can be a beer venue as well, but the conversations drift away from beer from time to time. I see the Mudcat as a "community" not a "music community".

And, as much as this is apparently not the place for it, my prayers do go out to the boy as well....

Frank

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: GUEST,khandu
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 12:25 AM

I posted the "ERECTION" thread in direct response to this thread. In this thread, I pointed out the inane threads that have been posted, and I followed up with the Erection thread to make the point. As of this writing, "Erection" has 40 responses. I am glad this one has more than that.

I disagree with Joe Offer, but, to attack him is wrong. He has had my respect for some time and has done nothing to lose it.

Now, a new thread has been started. A thread which attacks Joe and those who agree with him. This saddens me.

I am beginning to understand Susan (WYSIWYG) and her oft-voiced fear of certain types of threads causing rancor. Mudcat IS predominately a music forum. Yet, with all our human frailties and strengths, we sometimes get caught up in emotionally charged subjects. And we display our most severe weakness...the tendency to attack those who see things differently from us.

Joe Offer is not an evil devil who does not care about the needs of this child. He has merely expressed that, in his well-considered opinion, Mudcat is not the forum for this. I appreciate that.

I will not post such a thread. But, as stated earlier, I will respond to one if I choose.

I have no Here's-what-we'll-do answers. But, I will say this; We lower ourselves when we begin attacking one another. Gang, we are bigger than that.

khandu

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Lighthouse 65
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 01:02 AM

Its not a thread attacking Joe and those who agree with him, rather it is about the hypocrisy of allowing nonsense threads such as the erection to exist and say nothing, but jumping all over the mere mention of the word prayer. Not a place here? Why not? Plenty of nonmusical threads take place here - just because Joe so doesnt agree with what was posted here doesnt mean it cant appear. Like others have said - if you dont like it dont read it. I apply to that standard. Not a close relative of the catter? So what! Does one have to have a certain relationship with another person before it's deemed fitting to pray or ask to be prayed for? I don't think so. I found it to be quite innocent as opposed to plenty of the nonsense threads that come on here, not to mention the bickering and swearing between catters. thats what THIS thread is about. We're all here as music lovers, is it that big of a problem for people to care about each other too? Remember - if you dont like the subject then dont read or respond!

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 02:35 AM

In my opinion, Joe et al have missed the central point. This is NOT Spam. Spam is selling, spam is individuals trying to reach as many people as possible in order to make sales. Spam is________, _______, _______. Fill in the blanks.

This is TOTALLY different. This is focused thought of good will and hope for the well being of specific people in need.

I don't know it to be true but I suspect that you, Joe O, may have a problem with what you consider the 'new age' approach, that you distrust it when something is presented in less than strict alignment with the biblical, 'mainstream' interpretration.

I'm not a 'new ager', I don't even know much about it. But one thing I AM aware of is that there's a whole lot out there that we are not making proper use of. In my opinion, people joining each other in prayer and good thoughts, each one making the package denser and at at the same time clearer in purpose, are making good use of power.

I agree completely with those who see the objection to this thread as ludicrous when at the same time the Erection thread and many, many others have not drawn any negative comment from men, including Joe. As it happens, I found the beginning of the Erection thread hilarious because it was such a macho guy thing, with such innocent pride in the subject. I can't think of any comparable female subject that women would discuss that way.

At the same time, I didn't hear one woman demand that that thread be stopped. Different strokes (no pun intended) for different folks.

I think that if someone does object vociferously to any thread that that person should start a thread devoted to that point of view, instead of trying his or her best to destroy the one he objects to, making everybody feel bad.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Banjer
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 07:17 AM

Having been around for some four years and having been a contributor to many threads, both music and non-music, I have taken to lurking. I still visit the Mudcat at least twice daily, some times more if there is an interesting thread in progress. I have not responded to many because I know that my views are not always shared with others. Similarly I have a way of laughing at things that others take seriously, sometimes causing strife with my comments. I DO, however realize that we are a community here, made up of many different personalities and opinions. Some like nothing but music threads, others prefer a mix of both types and still others care not a whit about music threads , preferring just the BS designated ones. Why is this so hard to grasp? Abraham Lincoln made a wonderful statement about not being able to please all people all the time. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we all had his marvelous insight into human nature?
Kat and Joe are two of the people I recall having some of the first contact with when I first arrived on this scene. I respect them both for different reasons.
Joe is a no nonsense type of person, having served our country well in the employ of the US Government. He has also studied in seminary. He has a well rounded background that serves him (and us) well in keeping this forum intact.
Kat is a kind and caring person, having a great love and concern for all life, human and animal. Much of her beliefs are based on American Indian culture. It is this diversity in our members that makes this forum the wonderful place it is!! What a dull place it would be if we ALL thought alike. Post one would read 'I dislike such and such', and the next one hundred posts could just be a simple, 'Yep, I agree'!
Let's lighten up folks and all get along....Please????

Banjer, replacing the soapbox to its usual spot....

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 11:54 AM

Please note: "No Nonsense Joe" is retired and spends a good deal of his time working with homeless and abused women. He and Kat have a lot in common and I love and respect them both for it.

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Peter T.
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 11:57 AM

It seems to me on reviewing all this (and having been away) that tacit understandings are best left tacit. There are different reasons different people have for keeping prayer threads to a minimum: the perils of cheapening them, leaving them open to abuse by thoughtless people, and the fact that some people find them offensive. We have people here who take prayer seriously: and some of those people think that prayer threads trivialize prayer, and some of those people think that they are a valid extension of prayer!! The people who argue the most are ironically the people who take their notions of prayer most seriously. There is absolutely no way of adjudicating this.

What we have found over time is that serious calls for prayer from Mudcatters in trouble are appropriate for threads, though the e-mail route is open and maybe preferable. Denying the need for care of whatever kind to members of this community in trouble is not what we are about. If Joe Offer asks me to paint myself blue because it will save his life, my question is: peacock or navy? If katlaughing says that she will not survive until tomorrow unless I paint myself red, my question is: fire engine or geranium? But beyond that level, it all gets entangled in all kinds of different views and interpretations about what is serious, what the right venu is and so on.

It seems to me that Mudcatters in general, and people in this thread in particular, have a pretty good sense of what is a serious need, and the limits and appropriate vehicles in practice. There are always a few jerks, but they get bored. We are pretty good at self-limiting and keeping out of each other's hot spots. It is when we start articulating and defending what we believe those limits are, should be, and why, that we get on each other's nerves.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: Stamp Out Chain Letter Threads!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 01 - 11:24 PM

Certainly, these prayer request chain letters are not as serious a problem as many others. Do you know why I don't post anything in the "Erection" or other obnoxious threads? Time and time again, I've said that the best way to deal with trolls, Spam, and flamers is not to respond to them, to act as if they did not exist at all. I stick to that policy, except in certain circumstances when I have to say something to deal with a problem. Apparently, dozens of Mudcaters disagree with me and post to those stupid threads with gusto.

Why do I post to this thread?
Is it because I don't believe in prayer? Nope. I pray and study the Bible every day.
Is it because I'm worried about New Age stuff? Nope. I don't like it when it's trendy, but I find it fascinating and inspiring when it stems from genuine tradition. If you think I'm against New Age thinking, you should meet my future wife, a chiropractor/massage therapist who's a mixture of Catholic, Zen Buddhist and New Age healer. We both find an strong connection between some forms of New Age thought and traditional Christian, Jewish, and Buddhist mysticism. I do admit that I am suspicious of big-money evangelists and those who make big piles of money with their trendy self-help and New Age books and tapes and whatnot.

I am very concerned about the baby and the family Charcloth spoke of in the first message in this thread, but I hate with a passion to see their plight cheapened with a thread that is full of empty platitudes posted in response to the request. I subscribe to WYSIWYG's prayer e-mail list and I read it, and I occasionally get similar requests through Katlaughing. Do you know what? These mailings are good, solid information - and they don't contain long lists of oft-recited aphorisms. I still think the best way to handle these concerns is in e-mail lists and personal messages, where the approach is more personal and the privacy of the people in need is more protected.
You know, it's not the individual message describing this family's plight that I find offensive and cheap. It's the fact that it's in a thread, all by itself, followed by a chain letter of same-old same-old aphorisms. I'd be open to something, maybe a PermaThread, that has message requesting prayer, good thoughts, healing or whatever - but does not have responses. If e-mail is not satisfactory, can somebody come up with a suitable compromise? Katlaughing is a JoeClone - maybe she'd volunteer to maintain a PermaThread.

Remember, though, that this is a public forum. If you post something here, you open your post to the scrutiny of all who read it - and if they disagree with you, they have a right to express their disagreement in the same thread where you have posted your message. If you insist on continuing these prayer/healing request chain letters, please remember that other Mudcatters have a right to disagree. I will politely voice my disagreement in the place where it will be seen - right in the middle of your chain letter thread, just as I have here. Sorry, people, I'm not going to take my disagreement into a closet. I'll post it right where you have to see it and deal with it.

We've had an unwritten truce on this matter for most of the time since the big flareup of 1999. We've also been pretty good about cutting down the endless chain of birthday greetings threads, although there's still enough of that to make me gag. This week, we've had at least three of these prayer/healing/sympathy chain letter threads threads. Can't we go back to the truce, and keep this stuff out of Mudcat? This is a music forum, and this prayer/healing request stuff just doesn't seem to have much to do with music - especially when the people involved are strangers to us.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 07:40 PM

Well Joe, go read my post on "Why We Sing, Part 2"......

What bothers me here is that here is a situation which I know something about and can possibly help out a bit, it's even local in a way. I posted some basic info and a website and made an offer.........No one has to take me up on it and perhaps Charcloth has passed on the information......or perhaps it hasn't been seen. And why?

Because we've elected to beat a dead issue into the friggin' ground. Policy be damned and policy my ass! Someone mentioned tacit understandings and better they are left tacit.........how true. If Charcloth has not returned, I am not surprised. I just returned from a weekend of camping and pulled this thread first. This is what I find???

I'll PM Charcloth and offer the same.........But with the number of trolling and complete flaming tripe that goes on here, doncha' think y'all could find something better to deal with instead of fighting it out here? you wanna' fight this point, go Susan's route of drag up all those threads about me and crap all over them and me and eveyonme whp was involved in them......I don't care!!! Not a baby dammit .... GOT IT????? NOT HERE!!!

Pat

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Jul 01 - 09:32 PM

Joe, may be it IS time to set limits.

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: SharonA
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 10:50 AM

In reference to catspaw's post and the clickey to his comment about a possible higher purpose (or, at least, higher result) of his pre-surgery goodthoughts thread:

I've been thinking about this whole "prayer/goodthoughts" thing over the weekend. I was raised in a strictly fundamentalist Protestant home, where the Baptists were considered backsliders. I'd observed no power of prayer there; just a lot of people mouthing the words and basically telling each other they'd better believe it does some good, or else. As an adult, I've stayed far, far away from anything having anything to do with Christians, prayer, faith-healing or purported "miracles".

However, as I've sometimes seen people of different faiths come together to support one another and observed the positive results, I've come to wonder whether the "power" generated from that connection has to do simply with making one another "feel better"... or whether it actually serves to improve the situation. Who's to say that all the good things that have happened to me in my life AREN'T the result of someone, somewhere, thinking of me and wishing me well? Maybe not, but maybe so!

So, having been on both sides of the "belief" fence and now sitting on it, I have to disagree with the characterization of prayer/goodthoughts threads as mindless chain letters. To some people, they are so much more than empty words. And whether or not the good thoughts make a real difference in the circumstances that caused the threads to be started, they do no harm, and they make the thread-starter feel better to know that some nice people out there are thinking of him and his concerns.

Please, Joe, don't prohibit us from asking for good thoughts or expressing our support. If you make it a hard-and-fast rule that we need to do so through private messages only, then please say so in the FAQ with a blueclickey reference to some starting points to do so, for the benefit of GUESTs and new members who won't know better. But I wish you wouldn't make such a rule, because I feel that it would leave out many people who are "turned off" by the term "prayer chain". (Perhaps a "good thoughts" chain could be started in addition?)

Charcloth, if you're still reading this thread, we ARE still thinking of you and yours, even in the midst of this misplaced debate, and hoping for the best that can be for the child.

SharonA

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Charcloth
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 10:57 PM

I have just now had the chance to get back after doing a Ren Fair gig in Fremont Ohio. I am dismayed that all this fuss has happened. Had I known about the prayer chain I would have used it but then I might not have been told about the wonderfull helps out there for Down Syndrome that Cat mentioned. BUT I DO NOT THINK THAT ALL THIS HASSEL RAILED AT JOE IS WARENTED. YOU MIGHT DISAGREE WITH HIM BUT WE NEED FOLKS LIKE HIM TO KEEP THIS SITE ALIVE. One reason I posted the request here is because it concerned a family of musicians who sometimes visit this site. I am pleased that so many have opened their hearts & stood up for the need. BUT this bickering has gotten out of hand. Joe doesn't deserve all this anger tossed at him. And I a apologize to him for being partly the cause of this. I wish to end this thread & wish ALL well. I will post this 3 times so no one will miss my intentions that I will not return to this THREAD.

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Charcloth
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 11:38 PM

I have just now had the chance to get back after doing a Ren Fair gig in Fremont Ohio. I am dismayed that all this fuss has happened. Had I known about the prayer chain I would have used it but then I might not have been told about the wonderfull helps out there for Down Syndrome that Cat mentioned. BUT I DO NOT THINK THAT ALL THIS HASSEL RAILED AT JOE IS WARENTED. YOU MIGHT DISAGREE WITH HIM BUT WE NEED FOLKS LIKE HIM TO KEEP THIS SITE ALIVE. One reason I posted the request here is because it concerned a family of musicians who sometimes visit this site. I am pleased that so many have opened their hearts & stood up for the need. BUT this bickering has gotten out of hand. Joe doesn't deserve all this anger tossed at him. And I a apologize to him for being partly the cause of this. I wish to end this thread & wish ALL well. I will post this 3 times so no one will miss my intentions that I will not return to this THREAD.

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Charcloth
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 11:39 PM

I have just now had the chance to get back after doing a Ren Fair gig in Fremont Ohio. I am dismayed that all this fuss has happened. Had I known about the prayer chain I would have used it but then I might not have been told about the wonderfull helps out there for Down Syndrome that Cat mentioned. BUT I DO NOT THINK THAT ALL THIS HASSEL RAILED AT JOE IS WARENTED. YOU MIGHT DISAGREE WITH HIM BUT WE NEED FOLKS LIKE HIM TO KEEP THIS SITE ALIVE. One reason I posted the request here is because it concerned a family of musicians who sometimes visit this site. I am pleased that so many have opened their hearts & stood up for the need. BUT this bickering has gotten out of hand. Joe doesn't deserve all this anger tossed at him. And I a apologize to him for being partly the cause of this. I wish to end this thread & wish ALL well. I will post this 3 times so no one will miss my intentions that I will not return to this THREAD.

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Melani
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 02:20 AM

Hey, Joe--I've been out of town for a week and have only had time to skim this thread, and to read your most recent post. Sometimes those empty platitudes are the best things I can come up with to express sympathy for people who I feel I know, if only virtually. I'm not real articulate when it comes to heavy-duty emotion, and I often cover it with humor. When that's really not appropriate, I'm sometimes left with only trite phrases, but that doesn't mean I don't care--just that I can't express it very well. I think it must help people to know that others are thinking about them, and I have spent some extensive prayer time on a number of people here.

My son, who has problems similar to Catspaw's kid, also has a couple of Downs buddies--they report his behavior to me every day when I come to pick him up, and get on his case when he's naughty. With early intervention and barring health problems, that kid will do fine and be happy.