prayer request

Subject: prayer request
From: Charcloth
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 11:19 PM

Hey foks [I am still on line at present] I spoke a musician friend of mine out of Dayton, Ohio (he is with the Celtic folk group "Father Son & Friends.") His sister just gave birth to a wee laddie with some serious complications & at 2 days old the baby had to be operated on. The child has a long way to go. I wish I knew more but that is all I know I will update you as I soon as I can. I would appreciate it if you could send a few prayers up on the child's behalf. Thanks, Charcloth

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Jul 01 - 11:24 PM

Well, you can at least have all my best thoughts to the baby and parents too. We need all the Buckeyes we can get! We have some pretty fine docs and hospitals in this state so I'll be wishing the best for all and hoping to hear good news.

Spaw

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: jeffp
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 08:13 AM

You can count on me. Can't resist a little one in trouble. All the best.

jeffp

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: MMario
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 08:32 AM

ditto

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 08:36 AM

Charcloth,
I will keep this young man in my thoughts and prayers. What is his name?
Mary

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Kjell
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 08:36 AM

I do not pray, but send blessings from my heart for a positive outcome.
Kjell

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 10:44 AM

Prayers from here-- do you want this sent out to the Prayer Chain?

~S~

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Jimmy C
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 10:47 AM

The baby will be in my thoughts and in my prayers from now on.

Keep us posted

God Bless

Jimmy

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: GUEST,Celtic Soul
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 11:51 AM

Father, son and friends...wow, I love that group.

But even if it were some completely unknown baby, my thoughts and prayers would be available.

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 12:01 PM

me, too

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 12:01 PM

Will pray for the wee bairn, in spite of the fact that he's in Ohio. What's his name?

Alex

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 12:07 PM

good thoughts from here, too

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Hollowfox
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 12:57 PM

I'm sending good thoughts now, and I'll light a candle when I get home from work tonight.

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Jeanie
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 04:02 PM

May God's Love and Light surround this baby and all who care for him, now and always. From one who herself was prayed for as a newborn under similar circumstances - do tell them that. God Bless

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 05:47 PM

Over the years, prayer request and healing request threads have caused a lot of turmoil here at Mudcat. I had the impression that we had come to an understanding that such things would be handled by e-mail or personal message. I know that the threads are started with the best of intentions, but they are a real target for nastiness. I've seen a few of these requests come up lately, so I thought I'd mention that a resurgence of prayer, "good thoughts" and healing threads may not be good for Mudcat.
Thanks.
-Joe offer-

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: CET
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 05:54 PM

Joe: I'm new to Mudcat, so I may be missing something, but I don't see the harm. Mudcat is a community. Who should you go to for prayer and support if not to your friends?

Edmund

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: hiudai
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 06:12 PM

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 06:27 PM

Joe, I'm with CET on this one, as a fellow "newbie." I'm very positively impressed by the supportive atmosphere here, and by the way in which any "nastiness" is handled by most responders. Time will tell whether any problems encountered in the past will escalate again, or whether 'catters have learned from history.

In the meantime, I'm sending westward all good thoughts and hopes for steadiness of the surgeons' hands and for strength for the baby's body and the family's spirit.

SharonA

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 06:42 PM

Unfortunately, CET and Sharon, some "prayer request" type threads in the past have escalated into horrendous flame wars, of the "your god isn't a real god (or doesn't exist at all)" sort. It seems that some people of one religious bent just can't help being offended by the religious activities of people of some other religious bent, and further some people of a non-religious bent seem to get bent out of shape altogether if anything remotely resembling religious activity is even whispered about.

At least, this has happened, and more then once, sadly, in the past. Thus, Joe's remarks.

It would be nice if everyone could just "leben und leben lassen" (as the man dancing with the bear said in "Cabaret" -- live and let live) but unfortunately not everyone is capable of it.

Now watch, this will be the post that starts the flaming. Sigh. (e.g. "How dare you say that all atheists/religious people/Christians/Wiccans/whatever are blah blah blah" -- as if I said anything about "all" of any group!)

Alex

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: CET
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 06:43 PM

A prayer from me as well

Edmund

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 06:45 PM

Lighting a candle... Larry and Genie

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Gareth
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 06:46 PM

If a prayer is needed, then a prayer has been said.

Gareth

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 08:58 PM

Well, the difference in beliefs is one thing. Another is the sheer volume involved. We were getting a few prayer or healing requests a day, and each one was generating dozens of replies that were more-or-less the same. When you get into that sort of quantity, it starts looking like Spam. The volume of requests also tended to tip the scales and pull Mudcat away from its purpose as a music forum.
As I said above, I'm certain that the thread was started with the best of intentions - but it's something that has caused serious problems in the past and I hate to see those problems arise again.
Prayer and healing requests are wonderful things, but not here.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: RangerSteve
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 09:24 PM

Add my prayers to everyone elses. Steve

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 09:35 PM

For those of you who are new here, Alex has explained it pretty well and Joe's concern comes not from a lack of humanity or compassion........he's a fine fellow. The subject has caused problems here in the past and I too do not want to fight those wars again. I think we did agree though that something along the lines of "good thoughts" instead of "prayer" or "healing" would be acceptable and we have tried to stay with that policy ...... and it has worked pretty well.

In this case though, and on this thread, let's forego any arguments about beliefs and semantics and offer what we have, can, or will, to Charcloth, the parents, and this young 'un.....all of whom could use a few good thoughts right now.

Like my old friend Seed used to say, "You've got my half microwatt transmitter turned up full." Maybe from only 80 miles away it will mean something. Best to you all......You are in our thoughts.

Spaw

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Charcloth
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 09:58 PM

A Big thanks to all. The child, John Paul Sutter is getting stronger. And he seems to have made the hurdle. He does have down sydrome (however you spell it) but worse things could have been. I appologize if my thread has caused some concerns for mudcat, this is a great site & is much appreciated.

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 10:17 PM

Charcloth, your friends are very lucky and I hope that progress continues and young John improves each day......We will certainly be holding a good thought as always.

I have a special place in my heart for Down kids. Your friends will need to make some adjustments to their life and the Syndrome has a broad spectrum of functioning levels. Perhaps the hospital already has, but it would be of great benefit, even this early, to get in touch with the Down Syndrome Parental Support Group in the Dayton area, and also with the MR/DD folks. If they need help in making the appropriate contacts, PM me and I'll put them together with the right people.

My 9 year old son Tristan is MR/DD and attends Special Ed. classes with several classmates, including his "girlfriend," who are Down Syndrome kids. His class goes bowling every month and it's a high point for me because I always go too. If there are kids who have a better time, I've never seen them.

Let me know if I can help out. I'm not far outside of Columbus and have worked with MR/DD and Down Groups all over the state.

Spaw

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 10:23 PM

BTW, here's a website with some info from the most active group in the Dayton area, The Miami Valley Down Syndrome Association.

I'll be gone this weekend, but if I can be of help or your friends need to talk, PM me and I'll give you my phone number. My e-mail is [e-mail]

Spaw

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 10:53 PM

Charcloth, your thread has been fine and not offensive. I think we have grown beyond what happened in the past and learned to compromise with titles and such as Catspaw said. Thanks for letting us know how he is doing.

Continued good thoughts from here,

kat

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Jul 01 - 11:20 PM

Yes, it is absolutely correct that there is nothing offensive about this one thread, in and of itself. The problem arose because of the sheer number of requests that came up. Every one started with a request for good thoughts for some worthy, well-intended cause. then, We got a hundred responses that were all the same platitudes, "Continued good thoughts from here," "I will hold you in the light," "you are in my thoughts and prayers," etc. All of this is well and good, if said once - but when it comes a hundred times in a hundred threads, it becomes meaningless. The individual situation addressed is important and serious, but the sameness of the responses trivializes the matter.
If it's a participating Mudcatter who is undergoing something, that's newsworthy and it would be worthwhile to discuss here. This particular thread is for the child of the sister of a friend of a Mudcatter. Last week, we had a thread expressing good thoughts for somebody whose dog was lost. Worthy causes, no doubt - but how much can Mudcat handle and still be thought of as a reputable music forum? Again, I emphasize that these are matters that are worthy of sympathy - but posting them in Forum threads tends to trivialize the causes and trivialize the Forum because of the quantities involved.
There is no "policy" on prayer/healing/well wishes threads, but I thought we had come to a sort of truce on this and agreed not to have them.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: prayer request
From:
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 12:55 AM

This is the first time I have come across this site, I have read the preveous messages and am glad to hear that the wee lad is improving. I am the parent of a downs syndrome boy who is now twenty five. He was a delight from the day he was born and loves unconditionly. Do not dispair at having a downs syndrome child, you must be very special parents to be entrusted with this special child. I will continue to pray for the three of you and I ask you to please just put your trust in God.

Yours faithfully

Jesse

Vancouver Canada

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 01:35 AM

Not "somebody's dog", Joe. My sister's and I turned to Mudcatters in a moment of despair and need, knowing how much most of them care about one another, their families and their pets. If that offended you, so be it. We have not had the kind of thread you are complaining about, for a long time. And, as I said in my PM to you, far better for you to post to the inane threads started for no good reason, usually by innocuous guests, than to rant about a few good thoughts for a tiny babe. This thread was not the place for you to start this debate.

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 03:30 AM

I don't always post to these threads, but I read 'em and lend my thoughts, as I'm sure a lt of Catters do.

Steve

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 03:37 AM

There was this Person some time ago who said something along these lines: "the kingdom of heaven belongs to little children."

If you've ever worked with Downs kids, you know what He meant. Many are free from ever learning the sort of deceit, cunning, and snideness we associate with "growing up." Truly this cloud has a very special silver lining.

Maybe in heaven we will all love as fully, laugh as freely, and enjoy life as completely as the children with downs syndrome I have encountered.

Continued prayers, thoughts, etc. from Seattle.

PS Spaw you rule.

Alex

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Cappuccino
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 03:40 AM

Alex, that was exceptionally well put.

- Ian B

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 03:55 AM

Thanks, Ian (((((blush))))). I'm afraid it must seem very cold comfort at this point, but it was (and is) from the heart, and I believe in time John's parents will come to see what I mean.

Alex

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 11:21 AM

Kat,

Joe,

Pardon my brevity. Mr. UPS has arrived a few days early with my new computer and I may be offline until the cable modem installer comes next week, playing wtih my new toys. *G*

May I respectfully suggest that the discussion about the place of prayer threads move over HERE (click) if it needs to continue, so that this thread can just be this thread?

I refreshed the Prayer Chain FAQ thread so people can be aware of one of the alternatives (among many) to posting prayer threads.

Signing off--

~Susan

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: GUEST,khandu
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 12:07 PM

I have in the past derided Spaw on the size of his teeny peenie. I have responded to many inane threads with totally inane posts. I have started absolutely silly threads.

I have posted and have responded to many musical and non-musical threads.

If I can do that, then I surely can and will respond to "prayer threads".

Hindu, Wiccan, Christian, Atheist, Humanist, etc. ... we have 'em all here. The 'Cat is a big place. To limit the content of the threads will do more harm than letting such threads exist.

Freedom of expression, of speech, must be honored at the 'Cat. or the 'Cat will lose honor from it's members.

I have a TV. I watch what I want. What I choose not to watch, I do so by not tuning to that channel.

What thread I choose not to read, I do so by not entering that thread. It is my choice.

It is everyone's choice.

The child has my heart-felt prayers.

khandu

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: DancingMom
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 01:21 PM

Sending best wishes to little John Paul and his family. Children with Down's Syndrome DO tend to have many health struggles, especially in the beginning. The ones I have known are a delight to their families and everyone they come in contact with. They are truly a blessing in disguise.

When I had a child with birth defects, I thought we would have to deal with it all by ouselves. Not so. Seek help and support. You'll find out who your friends are. And you'll find out just what you are made of. It can be an interesting discovery, an amazing process.

Hang in there. Let us know how you're doing. Sharon

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 06:09 PM

Joe O, at the risk of deeply offending you, it occurs to me that your reiteration of your position on this subject could qualify as trolling. I admire you no end but I think you are wrong in this. As khandu said, we engage in much stranger behavior than this! And all of it takes up bandwidth.

As for whether this child belongs to a mudcatter or is totally unknown, why should that make a difference? It reminds me of what my father once said, in connection with a problem ex-daughter in law: I thought we agreed she is wrong! (As in 'always') If we agreed to any such thing, we were very wrong.

As for whether this child belongs to a mudcatter or is totally unknown to any of us, why should that make a difference? From my pov, any good energy in the world directed to a specific point is a wonderful resource.

My best thoughts are extended to the tyke and those who love him.

Elva Bontrager

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: gnu
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 06:54 PM

Joe... I will respectfully refrain from posting to any threads of this nature in the future. I understand.

Charcloth... Thoughts and prayers from here.

Subject: Nope - I can't agree
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 07:03 PM

I wish this child well, and I wish the best for all in this world who suffer. I work very hard at a center for women who live on the street, and I hope you all share my concern for them and for all who are downtrodden. I think we need to deal with people in need face-to-face, not by expressing platitudes over the Internet.
My opinion is that the posting of prayer/healing/good thoughts threads trivializes the needs of these people down to the level of a chain letter. The "power of healing" transferred by threads like this is like the "power" a radio evangelist has when he asks you to put your hands on the radio and receive the waves of power of healing.
If this were the first thread of this type this month, I wouldn't complain. It's not - it's the third one this week. If we start this up again, will we get back into a cycle of several hundred-message healing/prayer threads a day?
As I said before, all three request threads were started with the best of intentions - but I seriously question the judgment of those who cheapen these serious needs by posting them in chain-letter threads here in the Forum. That's my opinion. I have expressed it as diplomatically and sympathetically as I can, but this is a matter that causes me grave concern. I believe I have a right to express my opinion here - or am I just supposed to be some sort of lackey who is supposed to keep my mouth shut and help people with their technical problems?
I realize I'm taking aim at a sacred cow here. The needs expressed are serious, and I sympathize with them completely. However, I find these threads to be an unacceptable way to deal with these needs. If you don't want to hear me object, then take these things to e-mail or personal messages, or to your own Website. If you wish to continue to post healing/prayer threads, you have a right to do so - but remember that I also have just as much right to express my opposition.
I do wish the child well, but I also wish threads like this would dry up and go away. That's my opinion.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 07:18 PM

It's been said so many times: if you don't like the thread, don't read it, don't post to it. Simple as that.

You trivialise the sincerity of all who post their good wishes with your assumptions and opinions. As I said before, this was not the place to start this debate.

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 07:24 PM

While you are so busy expressing opposition, why don't you do so on some of the really inane threads which serve no good purpose?

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: SharonA
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 07:26 PM

Joe, I'm sure it's no fun being the "cop" for Mudcat; it's a dirty job but somebody's gotta do it, and we appreciate what you do. But when a cop stops a teenager in a car because he MIGHT have stolen it, people criticize the cop, and rightly so.

This thread has not devolved into nastiness, and neither have the other "good thoughts" threads I've seen as a "newbie".

It's a shame that you consider repeated expressions of support to be trivial and spamlike. I don't, and I think that the others who've posted here feel the same way. I for one would rather run the risk of reading anti-religious postings than stop myself from expressing my concern or asking for emotional support when I needed it.

That said, Charcloth, I'm sorry for the unpleasant interruption. I do hope all will be well with the child's physical health, and may he and his family find continued support and guidance to take them through the coming years.

SharonA

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: SharonA
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 07:31 PM

P.S. to Joe - Unless someone posted a thread asking for support/prayer/goodthoughts, how would anyone know where to send the private messages and emails you suggest as an alternative?

SharonA

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: gnu
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 07:50 PM

Joe, you are not taking aim at a sacred cow. You are taking aim at a policy. I agree that this is difficult. The line is blurred... such is the 'Cat. I believe most 'Cats would agree that you are correct, to an extent. HOWEVER, the posts indicate that there are policy concerns that must be taken into account... valid concerns. Perhaps a separate thread on this policy would be a good idea. After a lively discussion, you and the powers that be could come to a policy decision which could accomodate most 'Cats. My apologies for sounding like a ... well... nerd.

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 08:23 PM

" Unless someone posted a thread asking for support/prayer/goodthoughts, how would anyone know where to send the private messages and emails"

this misses Joe's basic point..let me say it a bit differently:

Well-meaning, sincere, honest, heart-felt spam has no more place here than stupid, cheap, selfish spam. Susan (WYSIWYG) has tried VERY hard to show people ways to make prayer requests without doing it here. Please try it that way, in a place where almost everyone agrees with the idea.

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 08:36 PM

Bless you, Bill. You said what I said, but you said it so much better... [grin]

The policy is that we have free, open discussions here. There is no restriction against prayer/healing threads, and there won't be such a restriction. Most certainly, there is also no restriction against my polite expression of an opposing opinion.
I believe that prayer/healing threads are shallow and tacky, akin to chain letters and television evangelism. I can't stop people from creating prayer threads, but I sure as heck have the right to express my opposition to them, whenever and wherever I wish. For those of you who do not like my opinion, don't read it.
I think the best way to handle this sort of thing is by e-mail or personal message, and I don't understand why we're starting to get this stuff in threads again. WYSIWYG has done a very good job with an e-mail list for prayer requests, and Kat has done e-mail for healing requests on occasion. You can contact them, and they'll put you on their mailing lists. For those of you who don't get enough prayer/healing requests by e-mail, I suggest that you read the newspaper - you'll find plenty of situations in your own community that need your prayers and good thoughts. Better yet, go out and deal with people face-to-face and give them some real help and sympathy, instead of trying to solve their problems by a chain letter thread like this.
That's my opinion. You may not like it; but I sure as heck don't like your prayer/healing threads, so I guess we're even. So, if you start a prayer or healing request thread, you can expect to see me post my objection. I'm still under the impression that this is supposed to be a music forum.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: prayer request
From: gnu
Date: 13 Jul 01 - 08:49 PM

Yup... I was right. Nerd is the best word to describe my last post. When Joe's right... he's right.