BS: Killing for pleasure

Subject: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:23 AM

If any proof were needed of the perverted nature of the 'killing for pleasure' mob, surely it is to be found in this piece of obscenity in yesterdays' Sunday Times
Jim Carroll

BIDDING WAR TO KILL RARE ROE DEER
Daniel Foggo
AN exceptionally rare white deer nicknamed "Pearl" has been discovered in the Scottish lowlands by a professional hunter, who is now taking bids from people who want to kill it. The white-coated roe-buck, which experts say is not an albino, is so unusual only a handful have been seen in Britain since the end of the second world war.
That the deer has now been given what amounts to a death sentence has infuriated animal lovers, who are campaigning to save its life. Kevin Stuart, who has the stalking rights to the 3,000-acre estate in Dumfries and Galloway where the wild deer lives, says he hopes to secure a four-figure
sum from a trophy-seeking client to shoot it when the hunting season opens in three weeks. He has already been contacted by people keen to stalk the deer, which could fetch up to £6,000 — four times the price of a normal specimen.
The idea 6f having such a rare trophy is exciting the interest of field-sports enthusiasts across Britain and even further afield, and threatening to start a bidding war for the right to shoot it Sporting Rifle magazine is planning to publish a "white roebuck diary", which will count down to its death by detailing sightings and bids by those wishing to kill it.
Animal welfare groups have reacted with horror to the prospect of hunters shooting the deer. "It needs a symbolic name — Pearl — because it is rare and beautiful," said Ross Minett of Advocates for Animals.
"Most people will be disgusted by the thought that the appearance of such a rare and beautiful animal has prompted a bloodthirsty race to kill it"

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: GUEST,Rapaire
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:28 AM

I hunt and I have no objection to legal, ethical hunting (as defined in the US, I can't speak for other countries).

I find this disgusting and obscene. Hunting should be done for food -- and only for food. You should eat what you kill and kill only to eat, not for some 'trophy' or to enlarge your ego or you idea of your phallus.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:35 AM

The Poor say " Its a nice day . lets go out and Vandalise something"

The Rich say "Its a nice day lets go out and kill something"

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:42 AM

I recall reading in Dony's Flora of Bedfordshire that a plant called Grass of Parnassus grew only in a single site in the county. Some (so-called) 'botanist' picked them all so that he could claim that he was the "last person to see Grass of Parnassus in Bedfordshire". Some people are such arseholes!

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: KEVINOAF
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:48 AM

I agree with rapaire hunting should only be done for food, anything else is totally perveted, where i live ido not permit hunting on my land , this has caused a few problems with the hunting fraternity, when the fing their fire returned. Most of the local gunshops wont sell me ammo now! Isolved this problem by going over to muzzle loading black powder arms and making my own ammo hunting the hunters is much more entertaining than pursuing wild life!

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: gnu
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 07:01 AM

I agree with Rapaire, and, in addition to... "You should eat what you kill and kill only to eat, not for some 'trophy'...", I was taught to return anything not eaten or used to the place it was taken.

"Used" does not include antlers and such. They go back too. Only thing I ever kept was some hair that a fisherman friend wanted for tying flies.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 07:30 AM

Jaw droppingly revolting.

This story sounds like an impossibly surreal real-world enactment of a fairytale fantasy involving the magical appearance of a rare mythical Unicorn ...and the sadistic lust of a horde of Satanic goblins bent on it's ritual blood sacrifice.

All we need is a plastic horn stuck on with sellotape and it's a real life version of Ridley Scotts' Labyrinth

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 07:34 AM

I find this disgusting and obscene. Hunting should be done for food -- and only for food.

So it's all right if they eat it then???

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: GUEST,Green Wellies
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 07:56 AM

What if this animal was butt-ugly and dangerous, but still the only one, or one of a small number.

I think we're in danger of 'bamby syndrome' creeping in here.

Pity the same consideration will not be given to the cute spring lambs some of you will be consuming in few weeks time.

................ and no I do not hunt, I'm vegetarian.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 08:23 AM

"What if this animal was butt-ugly and dangerous, but still the only one, or one of a small number."

Same thing IMO, still a revolting lust for a rare 'trophy'.

But the 'white' pure image, certainly adds a surreal fairytale quality to the entire story.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 08:27 AM

If the animal is so rare it should be protected.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 08:29 AM

I agree with Rapire and Richard Bridge.

We have the hunting rights to the land we own but have not exercised those rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 08:35 AM

I do not hunt but I have no objections to hunting something to eat, I fish and have killed many many fish all of which have been eaten, auctioning the life of a living creature is disgusting. Is this what we have become, where the life of a rare animal is reduced to what it's carcass is worth in pound shillings and pence ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: GUEST,Green Wellies
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 08:42 AM

''Auctioning the life of a living creature is disgusting''

And what about all those animals which were auctioned at the livestock markets this morning, and will be on your plate later.

Just because its not rare, does it make it less important ?

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 09:33 AM

Further to my earlier post: if by eating what we kill, does that make it right? Both seem like pointlessly pleasurable sporting indulgences to my mind, and although I might have sympathy for Inuit hunting rights (and suchlike) I could well sympathise with Billy Connolly in a recent episode of his new ITV series where having shot a seal dead in the water, the hunter's family proceeded to eat it raw. Culturally disposition, I guess, even though there have been times when I've cooked & eaten fresh (i.e. witnessed) road-kill (to boot: several rabbits, a hare, a nice fat pheasant and a muntjack deer) and great bloody fun & feasting it was too, but generally speaking I like my meat fresh from the butchers.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: bubblyrat
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 09:53 AM

There are people in Northern Ireland who like to kill unarmed soldiers and pizza delivery men.Perhaps we should try and put a stop to that before worrying about the blood-lust of specimen-crazed "sporting" shooters ,however distasteful we might find the latter ??

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 10:10 AM

Some years back - maybe 10 - in Juneau, Alaska, a local wildlife photographer took pictures of a rare white black bear and posted the photo on his website. It was immediately dubbed a 'Spirit Bear'.

He let us know that he would not be telling anyone where he came across it and then he went to the city council and got them to pass an ordinance to prohibit shooting any white bear in southeast Alaska (We don't have polar bears here).

Since then, there have been several sightings of more than one Spirit Bear. So far as I know, no one has attempted to kill one.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: meself
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 12:05 PM

"although I might have sympathy for Inuit hunting rights (and suchlike) I could well sympathise with Billy Connolly in a recent episode of his new ITV series where having shot a seal dead in the water, the hunter's family proceeded to eat it raw."

So ... there's something wrong with that? This is how the Inuit have survived in an extremely harsh environment for centuries, if not millenia. Anyone not having "sympathy for Inuit hunting rights" is a ... oksy, I'd better stop ...

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 12:31 PM

"Hunting should be done for food -- and only for food. You should eat what you kill and kill only to eat, not for some 'trophy'" - Rapaire.

I agree wholeheartedly with that.

But has anyone had a good look at the photographs of "Pearl", I've linked to the one published in the Daily Mail as it showed the best "close-up":

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1160395/Rare-beautiful-white-deer-just-trophy-hunters.html

Now compare it to this shot of a Roe Deer:

http://www.deer-pictures.com/roe-deer-winter.jpg

I have hunted Roebuck in Poland and in Wiltshire. Pearl's head looks all wrong, shape of head, shape and size of eyes. Looks like a mixture between a sheep, a Wallaby or a Kangaroo. The body doesn't look "right" something about the line of the hind quarters. It wouldn't surprise me if this was a hoax but its a bit too early for April 1st.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 12:35 PM

"There are people in Northern Ireland who like to kill unarmed soldiers and pizza delivery men."
What a strange piece of logic - why can't we be conerned about both?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 12:40 PM

PS I forgot - Sinister Supporter:

"So it's all right if they eat it then???"

I think it is fairly obvious that this particular animal is subject to auction as a "trophy".

I will not go on trophy hunts anything I shoot goes in the freezer.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 01:37 PM

So ... there's something wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with it at all; neither is there anything wrong with my quite natural revulsion to the scene. I might eat the occasional hen, but I'm sure I'd feel just as repulsed seeing it killed.

I will not go on trophy hunts anything I shoot goes in the freezer.

I don't see the difference between sport for trophy or sport for freezer; either way it's an indulgence, a lifestyle choice if you will, to go out and kill a wild animal which might have been happier to be alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: gnu
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 01:53 PM

SS... there is a world of difference.

You said you might eat the occasional hen. Adding up the rest of your logic, I assume that hen must be one of the ones factory raised, never saw daylight, never mated... one of the unhappy fowl? glad to be your fare?

Okay... terrible joke. I'll leave now.

Have fun kids.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: frogprince
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 01:58 PM

Isn't that beautiful! I never saw anything like it! I'd pay almost anything for the chance to kill it, and hang part of the cadaver on my wall!

      I just can't make that combination of dots connect. I'm nowhere near ready to paint everyone who likes game meat to eat with the sewage mop I find myself wanting to use for someone whose mind works like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 02:39 PM

We have a family of deer that play in our backyard, and have a white one. I like thinking of it as the White Hart of fairy tales, and as such wouldn't harm a hair on its little head... isn't it the one who will lead the Prince to the sleeping damsel, or something?

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Skivee
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 02:47 PM

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that this is a hoax. Sumthin' don't look right about that deer. The proportions and such don't seem to agree with photos of regular roebucks; also the eyes and ears seem odd. Could this be a lawn ornament?
That being said, I've never seen one on the hoof, so I'm no expert.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 03:06 PM

Kevinoaf: "hunting the hunters is much more entertaining than pursuing wild life!"

Gotta say, that's very funny!

How about auctioning up the hunter, rather than just the hunted?

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 04:56 PM

Am I losing my marbles? Did the Daily Mail article change? Now it says:

Mr Stuart, however, says he will not allow anyone to hunt Pearl.

He said: 'This is quite a rare deer and we want to protect it. We would prefer people to come and shoot it with their cameras.

'At the moment it is a yearling and doesn't even have antlers. It is a beautiful animal and we are worried about poachers and people coming to shoot it.

'While it is on this estate it will be safe. I don't care how much anybody offers to kill it, I want to preserve it and make sure it has a long life.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1160395/Rare-beautiful-white-deer-just-trophy-hunters.html

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 05:01 PM

No, I guess it didn't change. Just very different versions between Daily Mail and Sunday Times (and Telegraph.)

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: GUEST,d-bartz
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 05:39 PM

For your information its not a hoax, if you go to riflephoto.com you will see all the photos taken over 45 minutes, my rifle was on the ground next to me but didn't want to shoot it.
Don't beleive all you read in the papers.
I agree that it shouldn't be shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:17 PM

"there have been times when I've cooked & eaten fresh (i.e. witnessed) road-kill (to boot: several rabbits, a hare, a nice fat pheasant and a muntjack deer) and great bloody fun & feasting it was too, but generally speaking I like my meat fresh from the butchers." - SS

As opposed to:

"I will not go on trophy hunts anything I shoot goes in the freezer." - T

"I don't see the difference between sport for trophy or sport for freezer; either way it's an indulgence, a lifestyle choice if you will, to go out and kill a wild animal which might have been happier to be alive." - SS

Your road-kill might have been happier to have been alive no doubt - but what I have shot is killed instantly and does not suffer - a heart/lung shot and the animal is dead by the time it drops. If you can't guarantee that you do not shoot. Bit better than to have been hit by a car/truck or whatever wouldn't you say.

If you eat meat "fresh from the butchers" and are not prepared to go out and kill it, clean it and butcher it yourself please do not hypocritically criticise those that can and do. Unlike you I have no delusions about what has happened to the animal who supplied the meat you buy "fresh from the butchers".

Better to live as a wild animal for 18 months than exist three years as a domestic animal on a farm that's bred for slaughter.

Life style choice? Certainly wild game is far healthier to eat than domestically reared animals - alot less fat and far tastier.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: gnu
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:43 PM

All good arguements. But....

I was 12 years old when I put food on my family's table from hunting and fishing. I made money selling rabbits, and put that money in the bank alongside my paper delivery money, and my lawn mowing money, and...

I continued that "tradition" of hunting after I became Master Of Engineering and made a good living.

I still enjoyed going to the woods and taking game. I was first a Master at that. It's a skill. Yes, it's harsh, but is it a skill.

Yes, I enjoyed it. I actually enjoyed the hunt. It's not so easy as many would think.

But, therein lies the thoughts I ponder now.... why did I enjoy it? Even after I could pay someone else to kill, clean and deliver?

Some say "sport" and are disgusted. I am torn. I just don't know anymore. I haven't hunted for a long while.

But, I will never deny anyone the right to hunt.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 06:57 PM

Gun laws in the UK are such now that our largest wild animal, the Red Deer, is just about to be classified in some areas as vermin because of their numbers, the damage that they do to the countryside and due to the accidents they cause.

In the UK deer have no natural predators outside of man and the motor vehicle. In Scotland there is talk of reintroducing the Wolf and the Lynx in an attempt to keep numbers down. The reintroduced wolves and lynx of course will go for sheep and cattle as they will be far easier prey.

The most humane way to control the populations is to cull them by shooting, but in the UK you do not have a sufficient number of hunters who are profficient enough with a rifle, and the end result is that the deer suffer, wild life habitat suffers and the land is permanently damaged.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 07:32 PM

My first thought when I saw the photo was that the picture of the head of a hare was photoshopped onto a roe's body, but I guess not. Is the strangeness due to its youth, perhaps?

While I was at the site I checked other photos. It struck me how different the stuffed wolf (Red Wolf?) looks from the stereotypical wolf in the US.

Take a look:

Wolf in Scotland

Grey Wolf

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 07:32 PM

Try this quiz

http://www.quizilla.com/tests/8754630/how-well-do-you-know-endangered-animals

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 07:48 PM

That's one funky specimen of some European subsepecies you got there, Ebbie. Maybe a Canis lupus italicus. I doubt that's all the taxidermist's fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 07:54 PM

It's just labeled 'Stuffed Wolf', heric.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 07:57 PM

If the only source of your reality is from the one-eyed god then I suggest you get out and take a close look at the "nature" you so dearly love. It is a kill-or-be-killed world. Most all of life depends on the death of some other life-form.

Having said that, killing for the pleasure of killing is just sick. It's wrong. The pleasure of hunting is not in the killing. The pleasure is the camaraderie of your companions and your dedication to the hunt as well as the satisfaction which comes from the actual hunting and stalking of the creature. We are programmed by nature to be hunters and hunting fulfills this need. We have the utmost respect for nature and the creature we hunt. We never take more than we are limited to by law and conscience, which ever comes first. We clean and prepare the take ourselves. We bury the immediate offal (guts) at the point of the take and do NOT return the unusable or unused portion to the site. Since this was not another predator's take it may sit for longer than an ordinary kill or death. Most animals that sense they are dying go to a hidden place to die. Offal above ground has the possibility of spreading disease, including anthrax, to the living.

I include in my personal ethic, never using alcohol while in the field and leaving the land as I found it. Proper game management insures that those animals will always be on hand for future generations to enjoy, whether just observing or hunting. Never eat what you aren't willing to kill and prepare yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 08:04 PM

Plug Canis lupus italicus into google images and look at the second picture. I'll bet that's yer man.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 08:04 PM

Killing for food, IMO, is *not* the only reason to kill certain animals...

We kill deer because they are destructive to our gardens and crops...

But we don't let them go to waste and have several folks who are very willing to come get them and eat them...

BTW, we had a part albino deer here before last hunting season and I never would have shot it but I think someone did becasue we haven't seen it in several months now...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: gnu
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 08:23 PM

Well, Slag. I disagree. I always left everything for the ravens and the weasels among many others. Burying, unless it's six feet deep, makes no sense to me. And, burying at six feet deep makes no sense to me. Nature takes care of it...

We always returned the hide, antlers, whatever, back to where it was taken... said another prayer of thanks.

Anthrax? From offal above the ground? When it sits for longer than an ordinary kill or death? But, you said... "Most animals that sense they are dying go to a hidden place to die." Do these particular animals bury each other?

Sorry, but, it don't add up, bud.

I think it's time for me to leave again.

gnightgnu

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 08:35 PM

Jesus, Slag.




(He "enjoyed" the hunt and you "need" the kill. . . . , but that makes him a dick?)

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 10:21 PM

heric, I don't make out the 'Stuffed Wolf' to be anything like 'Canis Lupus Italicus.'

That entity is wolfish- its head is wolfish and even though the pelt is different from our Grey Wolf, the conformation is wolfish.

The Stuffed Wolf, on the other hand, lacks all of that. The 'bite' of the muzzle is the only part that looks wolfish at all; the cheek is more pitbull than wolf and the body appears all wrong.

Just a minute- I'm going to see if I can find a photo of the 'Red Wolf'.

Nope. It too looks wolfish:

The Red Wolf (Canis Rufus)

Any ideas? Maybe just a bad taxidermist?

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 10:35 PM

No ideas but I see what you're saying (and it's relationship to the dimwit look on the deer.)

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 01:28 AM

Who were you responding too??? Doesn't look anything like what I wrote. I said we are hunters by nature. That's a pretty broad assessment. Hunting for our supper is the most primitive form. Include in that, hunting for a mate, hunting for the best buy, hunting for your keys...name your hunt; it's what we do.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: GUEST,LTS not even bothering to pretend to work
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 03:17 AM

I have a list of names of people I would like to tender in place of this roe deer (yes, I haven't bothered to read all the thread).

I disapprove of hunting except to eat, most definately disapprove of it as a "sport" but would be quite happy if we could substitute the deer with some of my alleged 'colleagues' who have totally screwed up my day already by leaving my desk inside out (I'm left handed and 5'2", they are righthanded and 6'5"), the Techies who have removed all my personal settings leaving me with a migraine-inducing teal screen - and all before it was even 7.00am!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Gurney
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 03:28 AM

I can't see how the life of this animal is more valuable than any other roebuck. In a wild where there were wolves it would be one of the first to be taken, because nature abhors a 'sport' and that is what off-coloured animals are.
Taking it into a game-park is different, but in the wild it is likely to be low in the pecking-order, as many odd-coloured animals are, and perhaps not live a happy life.

I'm no longer a hunter, but I was, and I fish. It has been 50 years since I killed for anything but food. Never was a trophy hunter, why kill the best there is?

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 06:25 AM

An issue like this certainly sorts out the thugs and morons from the boys, doesn't it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 06:56 AM

Bit better than to have been hit by a car/truck or whatever wouldn't you say.

The deaths were accidental - road-kill, as I say; in no way was I advocating motor vehicles as a means to humane animal slaughter.

If you eat meat "fresh from the butchers" and are not prepared to go out and kill it, clean it and butcher it yourself please do not hypocritically criticise those that can and do.

I wasn't criticising, hypocritically or otherwise, simply pointing out that, from a UK perspective, killing for trophy or freezer are both sporting indulgences - choices of lifestyle if you will, rather than the sort of noble survival necessity people seem to be implying here.

Subject: RE: BS: Killing for pleasure
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 09:30 AM

You've got to hand it to the old redcoats, though, there are some bloody marvellous hunting songs out there...

Must admit I'm quite pleased I live in a modern western economy where someone else can rear, kill, prepare and sell me my organic free range meat. What with full-time work, picking the kids up, housework and all the rest there simply isn't the time to kill my own tea.

I disbelieve anyone living in a modern western economy who says they hunt for any reason other than sport or extreme poverty. Have the courage of your convictions! If you're going to do it, at least make it look like you're enjoying it, rather than turning it into some grim, manly chore!