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Slow Food - tomatoes
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Subject: BS: Slow Food - tomatoes From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 04 Jan 05 - 12:17 PM One of the designated special crops recognized by the Slow Food movement is the San Marzano tomato from the communes of Sant'Antonio Abate and Santa Maria della Carità (province of Naples). I'd like to get my hands on some seeds. I imagine the authorities would be less than happy to have an international seed exchange going on without their blessing (curcumnavigation of which is what the Slow Food movement is about, partly) but I have a well-proven method for sending seeds through the mail without danger to the local environment. Anyone have access to these tomatoes? (or indeed any interesting-but-not-commercially-profitable crop) |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 04 Jan 05 - 12:24 PM Can some kind elf move this to BS? Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: Sorcha Date: 04 Jan 05 - 12:25 PM San Marzano tomato. Buy some and save the seeds? |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: ThreeSheds Date: 04 Jan 05 - 12:31 PM How hardy are they, Weve had some success with marmande Any thought on sweet chillies (like the ones they have in the kebab shops)I'd love to grow some of those |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 04 Jan 05 - 12:37 PM Sorcha ... I'm suspicious that thoseare not the real thing. They should have a denominatze controllata stamp on the packet ... and the illustrations look different than the real thing too. I have some on arder anyway. Having said that, I suppose if I grow them here they won't be real San Marzanos anyway ... ThreeSheds ... apparently they're a bitch to grow and are very delicate. Where are you situated? |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: Sorcha Date: 04 Jan 05 - 12:53 PM True, and soil, climate, etc conditions always affect food tastes. |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: Metchosin Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:17 PM BPL check Mary out at ALM Organics on Otter Point Road in Sooke. She usually has a great selection of heritage varieties and if she doesn't have what you are looking for she might be able to give you some suggestions as to where else to look. |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: MMario Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:21 PM "san Marzano" appears to be (from my reading) a "class" of tomato - using various varieties - I know that there is an heirloom open pollinated variety of paste tomato by that name - but several articles on the web mention various named varieties of "San Marzano's" and several more mention the secrecy in which producers are keeping their hybrid seeds. You would probably do better to research an open-pollinted heirloom paste tomato specialized for your own region. |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:29 PM Thanks for that local link Metchosin, I'll check it out. MMario wrote: You would probably do better to research an open-pollinted heirloom paste tomato specialized for your own region. I have a few of these on order. But I REALLY want to get my hands on some of these (genuine) San Marzano seeds. Last year I had an appetizer in a local restaurnat which comprized slices of four different heirloom tomatoes amounting to about 200g or 1/4 lb of fruit, plus a drizzle of olive oil and a screw of fresh balck pepper. It cost $14.50 ... I know ... but it was worth it (well, once anyway) |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: gnu Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:35 PM ..."the Slow Food movement" ??? Huh ? |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: Metchosin Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:35 PM A lot of the local resturants here are supplied by local organic producers like Mary. I know she supplies Sooke Harbour House and I think they are still rated four star and I believe she supplies a few other better places as well. Another reason for checking it out. |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:37 PM Slow Food |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: gnu Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:39 PM Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: MMario Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:41 PM If you can find a produce dealer with a ripe 'San Marzano' tomatoe - chances are the seeds would be viable - though not necessarily true to type as you won't know if the plants were grown in isolation from other tomato varieties. (tomatoes are pretty much self-pollinated but not comletly - they should be raised seperately if saving seed to keep varieties true to type) There are sources for 'San Marzano' open pollinated seeds in both the US and Canada - though I don't find any listed for the UK - if they say 'F1' or 'HYBRID' anywhere in the description they are NOT the variety you want. |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: Hollowfox Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:44 PM Perhaps you should just order that appitizer again and save the seeds. BTW, has anybody else had Oxheart tomatoes? Somebody brought some to my library as as gift a few years ago. The benefactor talked about them as though they were an old variety, but I haven't checked on that. These babies were about the size and shape of an ox heart, firm, er, meaty, and deliciously flavorful. |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:48 PM They are a field tomato, I believe. The folks who grow them are committed to preserving their genetic purity, although I can't see how they can protect them from airborne cross-pollination. What I want is to get dried seeds from someone living in the area where San Marzanos come from. Will I have to resort to the Mafia? ;o) |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 04 Jan 05 - 01:49 PM Sorry, that last post was in reference to SM tomatoes ... but I've grown and eaten the oxhearts. Big, ugly and delicious! |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: MMario Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:12 PM - So you want seed from the 'San Marzano' heirloom variety - *GROWN* in the San Marzano area. In that case you best bet is to contact a local. From what I can determine most of the commercial growers have switched to hybrids that use the orginal 'San Marzano' as a parent - but are not themselves open-pollinated true heirloom variety traditional style 'San Marzano' tomatoes*** - which is one of the reasons the industry has put restrictions on who can use the name 'San Marzano' for their products. If you would be satisfied with seeds from a strain that preserves the genetic identity of the 'San Marzano' - try one of the US or Canada heirloom seed companies - which have them for sale. ***why? when the 'San Marzano' is suppossed to be the pinnacle of taste etc ? Because the 'San Marzano is also an indeterminate type tomato - which reduces it's utility as a commercial tomato - so it has been crossbred to produce determinate plants (which ripen their crop all at one time) with fruit that stands up to processing better, etc. Hopefully not at a sacrifice of taste. |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: Stilly River Sage Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:17 PM Considering that tomatoes are a New World plant I should think bringing the seeds back is not an issue. Last year I had a great crop of tomatoes, though they weren't any particular specialty variety, just stuff I hoped would grow here in Texas. I have bags and jars of frozen tomatoes for my slow cooking this winter, and my last tomato from the season, picked green in mid-December before our first big freeze, moved the other day from my window sill to my fridge, finally ripe. My onions and garlic are in now, and a couple of weeks ago I thinned and transplanted the onions. You present me with an interesting challenge, so I'll visit the local garden center and see what seed packs are available and start my tomatoes in the house. They can be started any time now, because down here they go in the ground in March. A friend of mine up in Washington state grows her tomatoes in the green house all summer so that the folliage doesn't get wet. That's what contributes to the fungus (yellowing) that affects the plants as the season progresses. Her tomatoes are to die for. Are you familiar with some of the more recent work that Gary Nabhan of Northern Arizona University is doing regarding eating local foods? SRS |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:30 PM Thanks for that link SRS. Interesting ... and encouraging. |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: Metchosin Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:37 PM As a former inspector for Agriculture Canada, SRS, it is an issue here. That doesn't mean that it can't and isn't done on the QT. Far simpler to go local growers or through heritage seed compamies. |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: Stilly River Sage Date: 04 Jan 05 - 02:37 PM Yeah--did you read about that Seri oregano, for starters?
Mmmmmmmmm! SRS |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 04 Jan 05 - 04:36 PM Metchosin, you will doubtless be familiar with the Golden Nematode that blights Saanich soil (Vancouver Island, Canada). It was accidentally brought in in the 1960s (I think) and brought about the end of potato farming on the peninsula. Such a pretty name for a nasty bug. |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: open mike Date: 04 Jan 05 - 04:57 PM Paste tomatoes come in many varieties.. it has been a while since i saw any (plants) for sale labelled as San Marzano...these days Viva Italia, Roma, and La Roma are what I see. this place has a good variety of seeds: http://www.nicholsgardennursery.com/ their paste tomato seeds |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: Metchosin Date: 04 Jan 05 - 05:05 PM Yup.....actually it was a very pretty worm. |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 04 Jan 05 - 05:20 PM Googling "tomato seeds San Marzano" got me to this page: http://www.bizrate.com/buy/products__att311185--310503-,cat_id--13010300.html Good luck with your plants. |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: open mike Date: 04 Jan 05 - 08:26 PM and there are these folks in new jersey.. http://www.sanmarzanoimports.com/ watch out you don't get tangled up with the mafia! they claim their seeds went to the pope |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: Stilly River Sage Date: 04 Jan 05 - 09:12 PM I should have followed up on my remark about the tomato seeds coming home, but I was at work so kept the remarks brief. It was intended more as an ethical statement than a biological one. Seeds like those of the tomato were taken to the Old World and though I think it took Europeans a while to eat tomatoes (so the colonizer's legend goes--I'll have to do some research if someone here doesn't know--is the Tomatoes-might-be-poison-to-we-Europeans-who-found-these-seeds-in-the-New-World Legend for real? I have a book called Green Immigrants that I think talks about it. Anyway, seeds were one of the most highly prized and top-secret items that went back to Yerp from the New World explorations. Hidden away and grown surreptitiously in monasteries and by the privileged few who could get them. It's only fitting that you should be able to smuggle some out of the monastery to bring back and grow here. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: Metchosin Date: 04 Jan 05 - 10:20 PM They were jusitfiably nervous SRS, because the tomato is a member of the deadly Nightshade family, which you probably know and Europeans were more familiar with their dangerous cousins. |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: Stilly River Sage Date: 04 Jan 05 - 11:37 PM Yes, I know. Eggplant, peppers, potatoes also, but they seemed less reluctant about some of those (at least the potato). We have several very attractive members of the nightshade family around here. My garden is filled with most of the above named crops every summer. When I was a kid, I remember my brother coming home and telling my mother that he'd seen a big patch of deadly nightshade in the park near a little zoo. She called the park department and suggested they remove it because it was too near where small children would travel. Nothing happened, it stayed there, until there was a news story about a child somewhere else in town getting nightshade and nearly dying. Next day the park patch was history. But it is a beautiful plant. Solanacea family. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: open mike Date: 05 Jan 05 - 02:37 AM also related is Jimson Weed, Datura If you have read Carlos Castaneda books you have heard of its psyco- trophic properties. http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/J/Jimsonwe.asp also related: Belladonna-- http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/n/nighde05.html the name was bestowed on it because its juice was used by the Italian ladies to give their eyes greater brilliancy, the smallest quantity having the effect of dilating the pupils of the eye. some alkaloids come from this family ofplants.. including the potion which was drunk by Romeo's Juliet and scopalomine,,,which is used to counter act the effects of sea sickness. nicotine is another alkaloid from this family.. |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: MMario Date: 05 Jan 05 - 09:25 AM The eggplant is old world - and the tomato was taken up quite quickly by those countries that already used eggplant on a regular basis - less so by others. But there are records of them being eaten in books of the late 1500's and early 1600's |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: Stilly River Sage Date: 05 Jan 05 - 10:11 AM I have sacred datura/jimson weed growing as an ornamental in the yard. It hasn't gotten so big and showy as it's desert version, but they are marvelous flowers that open at night. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: Metchosin Date: 05 Jan 05 - 10:12 AM Also with the potato you didn't eat the little fruit that was produced. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: SLOW FOOD (Greg Brown) From: open mike Date: 05 Jan 05 - 04:01 PM Greg Brown has a song called slow food....and here it is. (i think the first line means to say everybody wants that fast food..) i saw a banner in fornt of a fadst food place that said: your order in a minute or its free.....no slow food there! from the web site www.gregbrown.org Slow Food On WERU's First CD, 1997. Copyright © 1997 Greg Brown and Hacklebarney Music People want that fast food Two minutes and they grouch But give me ham baked all day long And help me to the couch Help me to the sofa Put the quiet music on I will lie and think about that ham Long after it is gone. I want some slo-o-o-o-ow food. I don't want no food with cute names No neon on a sign A man can't live on advertising slogans and conceptual design Let somebody else go surf and turf Someone else go carry out Me, I want my food to know itself Before it knows my mouth. I want some slo-o-o-o-ow food With all the love cooked in. Why don't we start it in the mornin' Leave us plenty of time for lovin' Weekend homemade hot fresh bread Make the whole house smell like an oven And let it all just simmer Cook in the good juices and the greases Then we'll sit down at the table, baby And slowly tear it into pieces. I want some slo-o-o-o-ow food What's the big rush?..../ Don't want no hard-hearted Hardee's, no muck-muck-muck-muck-donald's.... I want a chef, not a clown, to make my food... /it can even be tofu with the right kinda sauce.... I want some slo-o-o-o-ow food With all the love cooked in. |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Jan 05 - 04:46 PM Tomatoes "slow food"? You can't get anything much quicker than a tomato sandwich. And when you throw them at poublic meetings they fly pretty fast. A very versatile fruit. I've long been curius how people in Europe found out tomatoes weren't in fact poisonous - I mean, they look pretty deadly if you didn't know. I've got this theory it might have been the Borgias or some similar bunch of Renaissance villains unsuccesfully trying to whack a rival with a tomato dish. |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: Stilly River Sage Date: 05 Jan 05 - 07:09 PM Or someone in Europe watched the birds eat them and not die? Brrrr but it turned cold here overnight. It was in the 70s until yesterday, and now it is below freezing. Time for some slow food! I have a pot of split pea soup simmering right now. A few slices of homemade bread, or maybe baking powder biscuits, and a little apple cobbler for dessert. All made from scratch. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 05 Jan 05 - 07:50 PM Slow Food - refers not only to method of preparation, but also method of consumption. |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Jan 05 - 08:00 PM "Or someone in Europe watched the birds eat them and not die?" Birds eat bright red holly berries too. If we eat them we die. And the same goes for mistletoe. Plenty of opportunities for bumping off the relatives over Christmas... |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: Stilly River Sage Date: 05 Jan 05 - 10:10 PM Mistletoe berries are white. One of those survival rules of thumb I learned ages ago is to not eat white berries, they might be poisonous. I've only heard that holly isn't good for you, not really toxic. Red and blue berries are usually safe. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: open mike Date: 05 Jan 05 - 11:50 PM except cascara which causes diarrhea. (red berries) |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: Stilly River Sage Date: 06 Jan 05 - 12:28 AM There are always exceptions to the rule--it was a generalization offered in a course that had survival tips. Or maybe in one of my biology/botany classes. I grew up in the Northwest, and learned never to eat leaves or stuff off of a tree that has bark like the alder (alnus rubra) as Cascara does. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 06 Jan 05 - 11:59 AM Tomatoes plants ARE poisonous. The leaves and stems will cause violent gastric distress and have even caused death in livestock (deadstock?). I just read last night that a bamboo tube containing seeds 2,000 years old was wrapped in wet cloth to protect it and two days later the seeds sprouted. The plants turned out to be tomatoes, different shape to modern ones, but the same red-to-green colour as they ripened. Sounds a bit fishy to me -- I was always led to believe the plant came originally from Central America. I'll see what else I can unearth ... |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 06 Jan 05 - 12:00 PM Sorry ... I forgot to mention the bamboo tube was found in a tomb in China. Kinda important bit of information ... oops! |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: Stilly River Sage Date: 06 Jan 05 - 01:28 PM Trade was happening long before Columbus sailed the ocean blue, and seeds might well have been swapped. But I find the story bogus not because the old seeds sprouted but because you say this artifact was apparently wrapped in a wet cloth. That's nuts--water is very destructive in the context of preservation of old stuff. I would be inclined to think it's made up for that reason. But more information regarding the origins of the bamboo and the context in which it was found might shed light on this story. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: Liz the Squeak Date: 06 Jan 05 - 05:54 PM Tomatoes is the Portugese slang term for testicles.. becareful asking for plump juicy ones in Braganca! LTS |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Jan 05 - 09:41 PM As few as ten holly berries has been lethal. Better not to experiment though - leave them to the birds. |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: Stilly River Sage Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:28 AM I wonder if there is a difference in what grows in the UK vs in the US, holly-wise? It might explain the differing levels of local lore regarding toxicity. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 07 Jan 05 - 12:54 PM SRS -- Trade was happening long before Columbus sailed the ocean blue, and seeds might well have been swapped. I'm no expert in this area, but I thought there was no evidence of oriental/pre-Columbian trade or even contact, although there are some suspicions it may have happened. Tomatoes came originally from the Andes (what's now Peru) and historians can find no evidence they were used as food. Indeed, none of the languages of the area even have a word for 'tomato.' I banged off a note to the company that published the book with the 'bamboo seeds' claim and asked them to confirm their source. They replied yesterday saying they'd check into it and get back. Seems to me if it is true it would turn the conventional view of history on its head and we'd have heard before now. Stay tuned. |
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Subject: RE: Slow Food - tomatoes From: Stilly River Sage Date: 07 Jan 05 - 02:20 PM Evidence of pre-Columbian trade and travel is vast. There are so many sources now one wonders where to begin. It didn't take Europeans doing it and writing home about it to make it so for the rest of the world. And there are fascinating studies about the population of South America, where quite a number of years ago now they found (and continue to uncover) archeological evidence of habitation that is far older than the debunked "Bering Land Bridge" theory would allow for. SRS |
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