BS: A Change of View

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 01:04 PM

Sorry but I work in a special school. All the children have special educational needs due to their learning difficulties - some moderate and some severe. It is not just a question of learning differences, as different types of learner (kinaesthetic, visual, aural etc) are usually well catered for in mainstream schools. These kids find it 'difficult' to learn - period. They do not retain or process information fully enough to make much progress and require specialised differentiation and a lot of over learning. If you deny that they have a problem you deny their need for help. We want these children to grow up having the chance to live independently, be safe and healthy, have the prospect of economic stability and an income, have the opportunity to contribute to the society in which they live and be part of it.
Special educational needs does also include the gifted and talented and certainly in all the schools I have worked in these children are identified and help given to fulfil their needs. My own children are all on the gifted and talented lists in their respective schools and have had the chance to attend special events aimed at bringing together those who excel in maths, science, literacy, sports and music. Other children have been selected for similar things related to art or technology.

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 04:01 PM

Does it ever occur to you, Mrs. D, that perhaps your view of some of the children you help is perhaps wrong?

They may simply choose not to retain or process the information you wish them to, because they are either not ready or because they simply don't want to.

If you read 'Look me in the Eye', as I stated in the autism thread, you'll find that John didn't want to listen or learn in the same way that others did. Yes, he did eventually cotton on, but not until he was really ready to.   It didn't stop him from having a highly successful career working for Pink Floyd and KISS, as their special effects man, who had amazing skills that stunned many of the other guys in the entourage...but as a child he was all but written off educationally.

Many people learn 'differently'....that is all, but it does not make them lesser people..

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 04:07 PM

"Thank you Lizzie - please stick to your 'beliefs', which apparently rely on one or two anecdotes as usual, but spare the the rest of us your continual proselytizing about some mythical rosy past that no one else recognizes.

Personally, I prefer to stick to well established facts, proven studies or well founded theories before spouting my mouth off.

I also choose not to employ the combination of overblown emotion and expletives that you utilize for your frequent and predictable obsessional uninformed opinions - such as the one theleveller succintly describes above."

Oh, fer fuck's sake, Emma! DO put a sock in it, there's a good girl!
STOP trying to tell me how to write, or what to write. I am a very emotional person (thank GOD!) and I swear (God let's me and he really doesn't mind)...but that does not make me a bad person. Get over it, please...

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 04:27 PM

"Does it ever occur to you, Mrs. D, that perhaps your view of some of the children you help is perhaps wrong?"

Obviously nothing of the sort ever occurs to you Lizzie!

But then Mrs D is a professionally trained, experienced teacher who actually works with the children she describes so she obviously is not up to your beliefs!

"but that does not make me a bad person. Get over it, please..."

Lizzie show me anywhere I have described you as a 'bad' person - what you do write however is a load of either wilfully misinformed information, a parroting of others, or plain ignorance / misunderstanding of basic tenets and I have an abiding respect for veracity which, against all my better judgement, suckers me into responding to your recurrent posts.

Get over yourself there's a good girl - and please try to post without having to resort to expletives.

I thank you!

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 04:30 PM

No, Lizzie, it doesn't, but does it ever occur to you that you have no idea what you are talking about. You wouldn't recognise a well established fact if it bit you!

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 05:23 PM

Lizzie you tell someone that they don't know what they are talking about and excuse it by saying:

STOP trying to tell me how to write, or what to write. I am a very emotional person (thank GOD!)

It is little wonder that Show of Hands wrote a song about it. The words may be about bankers - but the title is about you. Have you not realised that yet?

By the way there is no god. And it isn't us you should be apologising to it is your children who you are teaching to swear like that.

Do they not follow your example?

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 05:28 PM

The term 'special needs' refers to children who require special assistance in order to learn--that is, they need help. The term refers to kids with very low IQs (for lack of a better term) and children with extremely high IQs. They are sometimes called 'Gifted and Talented'.

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 09:30 AM

The term 'special needs' refers to children who require special assistance in order to learn--that is, they need help.

It also refers to adults as well.

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 09:58 AM

Dave, you forgot the disclaimer. No reference to anyone on this site is implied or intended:-)

I suppose I should not be surprised at how hot under the collar people get about labels. Look at the glut of 'what is folk music' threads to show that, and this is a far more serious topic. It is amazing though that, while everyone seems to agree that the welfare of anyone with special needs is paramount, so much vitriol can be spilled on the very people trying their best to satisfy those needs.

You just couldn't make it up!

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 10:40 AM

I might not have forgotten!! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 09:31 PM

Yes, it refers to adults as well. In the context of my thinking while I wrote that post, children was who I was thinking about. Years ago I tried to persuade a school board to implement a program to 'help' Gifted and Talented children. The start-up funds for it required about $3,000 for the whole district. They refused because they couldn't find the bucks in their budget. They sit today with no program in place, despite that the law requires them to educate all children.

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: paula t
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 12:58 PM

Nowadays we have to keep a "Gifted and Talented " register at school, and make detailed provision for such children. ( As we certainly should!).The only ridiculous thing is that we are supposed to have a certain percentage of our children on that register. How does that work then?

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 01:09 PM

The "bible" of the mental health industry is being revised/updated. Asberger's Syndrome is no longer being listed separately from Autism. Instead it is being viewed as the higher end of the Autism Spectrum. Apparently it is creating a stir among "Aspies" who object to being lumped in with Autistic people. Interesting controversy. Some professionals are suggesting that this refusal to accept change is typical of autistics.

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 01:38 PM

So, changing your mind more often than your underwear is not usualy considered an autistic trait then? :-)

Seriously though, I can see the objection - particularly from adults who have only just got used to having one condition! Maybe this is where a change of view is not for the best.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 01:48 PM

I can too, Dave. But this is a medical text meant to guide professionals in a diagnosis. Popular media does not have to us the terminology. For example "Aspies" was never in the medical terminology. It is how people with Asberger's and those close to them as well as some of the media types refer to them.

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 04:41 PM

"How does that work then?"

Paula, when I asked the teaching staff at the school to help me find their G+T students, there was not one who did not give me their students who were in the honours bracket--and I know you're aware that they are not necessarily G+T. Part of the problem is actually recognizing who those students are.

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 05:07 AM

"How does that work then?"
Basically it won't. It is based on the total lack of understanding Civil Servants and Politicians have of the Biological Science of Poupulation Statistics.
If we take the whole population of the Nation it will contain all ability levels (or height range, or how fast they can run). Most people will fall within a particular range, with a few above or below. It may well be fair to say that people who fall above, or below these arbitrary points are high or low ability and need different systems appropriate to their conditions.
The problem starts when someone invokes "STATISTICS" and says that in the population 2% are one grouping and 5% are a different category.
The biologist would say that if you take a large enough, completely random, selection of people you will get a sub-population which mirrors the full one. In such a sub-population you would expect to see something resembling the 2% and 5% pattern seen in the original.
The Politician on the other hand states that "In EVERY" group of people 5% will be category 1 and 2% will be category 2.
In schools this is patently NOT TRUE. It only works with a RANDOM selection. The population within any one school is NOT random. Various social factors result in areas with a sub-population which tends towards the higher or lower end of the scale. School populations reflect this distortion.
If you only make decisions based on a percentage rather than an actual ability it becomes a mockery. The bottom percentages in the school which excludes low ability may well be equivalent to an "average" ability in the "dump school".
In some schools, the average ability is so low that children who need special help do not come in below the bottom % cut-off based on the averages for that school, and as such are deprived of the extra care they would have been given in a different school. It isn't a fair system.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: freda underhill
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 05:26 AM

So much about people's characteristics is unknown. and it's so hard for people to change their view, both people changing views about themselves, and about each other.

An article in the paper today Genes, not emotions, may cause stuttering challenges the view that people stutter because they've been emotionally damaged during childhood.

I think a large portion of people who don't do well at school could do much much better with earlier teaching and more creative approaches. Anyone who makes it into life with a good education and no empathy may have another disability that they, too, are totally unaware of, but which is so clear to others.

I went to school with a boy who was very quiet, had few friends, and was generally considered to be a bit slow. I met him at our old school reunion, he is a social worker, and a fine and intelligent man.

What Lizzie says, about the need for a change of view, and different approaches to learning, is very true.

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 06:42 AM

"An article in the paper today Genes, not emotions, may cause stuttering challenges the view that people stutter because they've been emotionally damaged during childhood."

I stuttered *terribly* as a child, freda, as did my father. I grew up knowing a man who never stuttered though. At 19 he decided that if he didn't work out how to talk without a stutter, his chances of finding a lady would be slimmed down a bit. ;0)

So he began to teach himself how to breathe.

When I was a little girl he taught me how to do it too, and he'd sit me down in front of him patiently going through it all with me. He taught me which letters to avoid starting a sentence with, he taught me to take a short breath, just before I started to speak and he taught me to slow down, to stop gabbling.

It took us a few years, but we got there, together. Now I have no stutter that people would notice, although the darn word 'medieval' still gets me to this day and I have to take that breath then let the word out slowly.

My daughter started to stutter around the age of 4, but she grew out of it very fast. The nurse told me it was because her mind thought of the words faster than her mouth could get them out, so they'd get kind of 'backed up'...Not sure about that, but thankfully, she outgrew it...and my son has never stuttered at all.

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: freda underhill
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 07:14 AM

that's an incredible prosess to go through, Lizzie and a great outcome. That man was very good to help you, and only someone who has been through the process could really understand. Strange that I happened to read that article today and use it as an analogy. I have a similar experience, of experiencing brain damage, and having to rebuild my memory so that i could function normally. this process took about three years, a short time comparatively, but it changed the way I experienced the world, that's for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 07:17 AM

Oh...I didn't explain it very well....'that man' was my Dear Dad himself..

:0)

I'm glad you fought the battle, and won, freda. Much love. x

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: freda underhill
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 07:23 AM

and to you, Lizzie x

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 11:55 AM

it's so hard for people to change their view

I'm not at all sure that is true, Freda. I have changed views on many things over the years. As we mature and assimilate more information we begin to realise that the hard and fast views we held in our youth were not, perhaps, as true as we originaly thought. It is nothing to do with 'selling out' but as we become more empathitic to others we begin to realise that th eother persons view is as valid as our own, whether we think it right or not. It is only a fool who would believe that their views, tastes or feeings were any better or worse than anyone else's.

With this in mind and remembering that views are based upon what people believe to be the truth we must remember that something is only true until another truth replaces it! Views can and do change regularly and it is not as hard as I think you are suggesting. There are exeptions of course but those who will not adapt at all will only fool themselves for a while.

My favourite 'fortune cookie', out of a computer login, that I still use on a technical forum, is 'Knowledge speaks. Wisdom listens.':-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: paula t
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 12:11 PM

Geoff the Duck and Guest 999,

Yes, we always run into problems when we try to treat children as numbers rather than statistics. I remember a statistician tears ago told me a "story" which demonstrates this quite well:

A group of scientists took a frog and made a loud noise behind it. They measured how far it jumped. They removed one of its legs, made that noise again and measured how far it jumped. They lft it with no legs and made the noise. It didn't move. From their ststistics they concluded that if you remove a frog's legs it goes deaf.....

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 12:59 PM

And statistics conclusively prove that half the people in the world are below average intellegence...

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: paula t
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 01:53 PM

Ha! Like it!Don't like my spelling on my previous posting though. I was watching the rugby. Sorry!

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 02:25 PM

And statistics conclusively prove that half the people in the world are below average intellegence...
I'm not sure I would accept that one at face value!

However...
The majority of people in the world have an above average number of legs (eyes/hands/ etc.,)

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 06:29 AM

You are quit eright of course, Nigel - It all depends which average you ar eusing. By pure arithmetic mean it would depend on whether the majority were in the upper or lower spectrum. If we use a weighted average it is more likely to be true. But it looses some of it's punch that way.

I like yours though:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 06:39 AM

DeG - you mean "median".

Apart from that I am wholly out of this pile of claptrap

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 06:57 AM

Probably, Richard, but I am more of an extra large than a median myself...

Subject: RE: BS: A Change of View
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 02:43 AM

re change and 'Knowledge speaks. Wisdom listens.'

you're right of course Dave.

freda