Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines

Subject: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 12:33 PM

The heartbeat of the finest folk festival in England has finally given out, with no prospect of resuscitation. The Plough has always been the focal point of the Whitby Folk Festival, and news that Sam Smiths' Managing Director was banning all forms of music led some believers to pray for deliverance, and hope somehow the Plough would be spared it's life , at least for the annual folk week.

No such luck - Gil (the Landlord) has been forced to sign documents stating that he will not allow any forms of music/singing, impromptu or otherwise, on pain of death or redundancy. We have a 4-piece band to thank for this dreadful edict. They played a Sam Smiths Pub in York and cranked up the 1000 Watt stacks to such an extent that the pub's revered owner nearly suffered perforated ear drums. "No more of this shit in my pubs" he whispered, and set off on his crusade.

Whistful memories and eulogies may be posted here.........

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 01:12 PM

Do Sam Smiths have a website that could be challenged?

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: Raggytash
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 02:14 PM

No Les, they do not even have email

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 06:42 PM

bastards!

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 07:22 PM

He won't live forever

But Folk Music will!

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 04:10 AM

Looks like the Plough will have a quiet week in August, shame.

eric

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 04:21 AM

Don't know where you get your information from Lowden, but three years ago Humphrey Smith (Chairman of the Company) first muted that he wanted to get all live entertainment out of his pubs and return them to the atmosphere of old, he neglected to take into account that pubs of old frequently had a piano in one room were people gathered to sing. I doubt very much that the actions of one band in one pub oon one night created this situation, but I am open to correction if you would care to elucidate

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 04:29 AM

This ban was already in place, it has nothing to do with a 4 piece band in York, its to do with the guy who owns the pubs Humphrey Smith. He made the desisions to ban everything.

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 05:06 AM

Humphrey Smith is quite, quite mad. Just ask anyone who lives in the rotten borough of Tadcaster

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 05:08 AM

Much as we don't want individual landlords to suffer, lets hope that al folkies take away their trade from these pubs especially during Folk Week in Whitby and Beverley folk Festival (Nellies)-support is a two way thng after all.

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 05:15 AM

Totally agree with that Linda, there have been rumours that they will RELAX the rule for both these festivals. Support does indeed work both ways I will, very regretably, be staying away from both pubs.

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 05:54 AM

Sorry Linda and Guest but I think you have it wrong on this occasion. Should this ban be relaxed (which from the first thread it would appear is out of the question) I would be more than happy to go to the Plough. Gil,Denise and their staff and regular customers have been fantastic over the years I do not see why they should suffer because of the actions of a third party I.E. Humphrey Smith.
Not only that the Plough IS Whitby Folk week to many people including myself, for the past 16 years I have spent many, many happy hours in there and would be delighted to do so again, I will not cut off my nose to spite my face in this instance. The support has always BEEN a two way thing between licencees and folkies in these establishments and had it been up to the licencees that would not have changed

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 06:49 AM

Sorry Raggytash I sympathise with your sentiments and would not wish any harm on the Plough staff in the form buiness as individuals. But Humphrey Smith is not a third party he is the first in this case and very unfortunately what he says goes. I would rather give my money to someone who cares. He cant have it both ways, no one minute, and yes during folk festivals so he can make more money.

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: GUEST,steve
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 07:38 AM

I will certainly miss them but I am not prepared to give him my custom anymore, the man is in the dark ages.

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 07:41 AM

Humphrey is a third party in relation to us and Gil & Denise, he is not "doing us a favour" he really doesn't seem to care about the loss of trade and apparently he can well afford to. However by boycotting the Plough it is only Gil & Denise and ourselves who will suffer, that doesn't make sense to me. I will argue the case for the continued use of the Plough should that be possible although reiterating the opening thread it would seem that Gil has had to make a committment to ensure that music does not take place. If that is so I will reluctantly go elsewhere as I have no wish to jeopardise Gil's position as licensee. I was actually in the Plough on Sunday but Gil and Denise were not working that shift, however I should be up there again on the 22nd and will confirm or refute what Lowden says after talking to Gil

A sad day indeed if he is correct

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: GUEST,Malc
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 08:29 AM

Gil & Denise will not suffer from your refusal to drink in their establishment as landlords of Smith they will still receive their weekly pittance, Humphrey however will see his profits fall.

It might also be worth finding out whether Smiths pubs have a music / live acts / performing rights / etc licence. in the first place, and if so why?

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 08:40 AM

We had a thread earlier this year where all the background, facts and speculation on the Sam Smith's music ban was covered in great detail so it would be worth having a look at it if you missed it. It's quite entertaining in its own right.

I think it extremely unlikely that Humphrey will relax the ban for the festival. He is hardly a thrid party in this. He owns the brewery, he owns the pub, he decides company policy. If anything,the landlord is the third party!

What is interesting is that his pub managers are resigning in droves because they are fed up with his draconian management style which leaves them no discretion in trying to make money.

Not drinking in the Plough WILL affect the landlord and landlady because they are less likely to meet their sales targets and therefore have less chance of receiving a bonus.

Unfortunately the only way to show our disapproval is to vote with our feet. Which is what is happening at many Sam Smith's pubs.

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 09:47 AM

We visited the Plough last Tuesday, and the sad tale was related to us by Gil - he was obviously quite depressed by the situation. A member of the Brewery management team was just on her way out of the Plough, and we asked if there was any point making some protest then and there. Gil asked us not to make waves; he's obviously concerned he could be put in a tricky situation.

I don't envy him - can you imagine the flack he might receive when he tests his powers of diplomacy during the folk week!? As soon as anyone pipes up to strum a chord or sing a note he's got to ask them to shut up or leave.

I will continue to support Gil and the Plough, but during folk week I'm afraid it will just be somewhere to meet everyone else (as ever) but then to move on elsewhere after the 1st drink.

I doubt that any representations to "Got the Humph" Smith will meet with anything other than disdain, but to stand any chance at all any letters would need to be very polite and extremely diplomatic. Anyone coming on strong to this guy will get instant brush-off.

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: GUEST,Sad Muso
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 09:48 AM

Sadly, I feel the profits will still roll in via the Plough tills whether the folkies are there or not during folk week.
Folkies are not the only ones on holiday in Whitby that week - there are tourists in abundance.
Many of them wish to sit and drink in a pub without the cramped space and noise of a session or singaround (I must point out that I'm NOT one of those that wishes this)
There have always been pubs in Whitby that actively discourage any folkie invasion - the Granby for example.
Such places are havens for those wanting to avoid the 'racket' (as they see it).
The Plough will no doubt fill up with day trippers and those holidaying that week that are NOT there for the folk.
I've heard some bar staff/landlords (both in Whitby and in other places) say that because folkies sit and play or sing, fewer pints may possibly be consumed per hour.
I believe they take more money over the bar in Regatta week, for example, where those there just get on drinking and there's no music to slow things down.
I'm actually afraid that their takings may NOT suffer.
I'm not very good at expressing myself clearly, I do hope you understand where I'm coming from.
I've sung in the Plough many a time - and will miss it.
I'll not be buying any Sam Smiths ale anywhere from now on. It's all I can do.

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 10:00 AM

Interesting point of view SM - maybe you're right, but Gil says he'll lose a lot of money and the brewery also. Only time will tell, and I will watch with interest during folk week, but £36000 for the week is one hell of a sales target to beat!

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: The Beast of Farlington
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 10:00 AM

Lowden

I've refreshed the 'Obit: Sam Smith's and live music' thread so you can see the history.

In a nutshell, you are right that aggressive letters will not change Humphrey Smith's mind. But, unfortunately, neither will polite ones as we have already sent them.

Nick, another mudcatter, even had a call at home (after his second letter) from Humphrey Smith which politely told him that he would not discuss the matter anymore.

We're not dealing with a reasonable man here!

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 10:05 AM

PS "I'm not very good at expressing myself clearly, I do hope you understand where I'm coming from."

You expressed yourself very well!!

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 11:16 AM

Nick, I don't agree with you on this one. If profits are not so good that week, Gil won't suffer. But old Humph might realise he's wrong. The same applies to Nellies. I won't be attending either on principle. And that alone will affect his profit and loss, as well you know!!!!

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: Flash Company
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 12:01 PM

Regrettably I fear that Chairman Smith's response to a loss of profits would be to sack the landlord for not trying, you cannot expect anything will get through solid bone! He'll never accept that it might be his fault.

FC

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: Sir Roger de Beverley
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 12:08 PM

Anyone who was in the Sun Inn, Beverley on Sunday last will realise what Nellies has lost - it was heaving. Also, between cursing at having to work so hard, the landlord was smiling.

R

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 12:36 PM

If trade in the Plough is down Gil will suffer financially as he does get a bonus of some kind for achieving certain sales targets

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 01:33 PM

So where in Whitby is there a venue that can come anywhere equalling the Plough's yard on a hot sunny day in folk week ?

Gerry (who's spent many a happy hour there)

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: nutty
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 01:54 PM

Will the ban affect activities in the yard???????

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 01:56 PM

It is a bad situation but perhaps from it - a more positive future may result. The thing is to try and ensure that maximum (and accurate) publicity is given prior - during and after the festival.

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 02:49 PM

I see no conflict here, in the (very unlikely) event of a "relaxation".

Surely attending sessions, if this were to happen, would give a clear indication to Humphrey of the profit disparity of the music/no music scenarios.

Perhaps greed might be a stronger incentive than reason?

And that way the landlord would not lose out.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: oombanjo
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 03:29 PM

Hi Yu'all I havnt browsed every link on the thread, and I like most wish Humpty a short life. However I was in Nellies last week and heard that Anna had had to sign a new contract, this had the same inclusions that were stated earlier in the thread, I asked the question "is it true" and found it was, and under NO circumstance is there to be any music inside or out. I was asked to pass the message on to all who have enjoyed Sams hospitality in the past. No music please. this needs to be past on to all who may think that they are helping.

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: GUEST,Lancashire Lad
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 05:53 PM

This Humphrey bloke is clearly a plonker, a prat of the highest degree. I think he should employ someone with an MBA or at least someone with marketing / PR skills. Without commercial management expertise (which he clearly lacks) his business WILL fold.

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 06:09 PM

and under NO circumstance is there to be any music inside or out.

surely he can't own the sidewalk?

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: Tyke
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 06:14 PM

No music in the Plough! Then why not takes your/our custom to the Shambles, in Folk Week it's one of the venues that the Moor and Coast Festival will be using. Nice Views of the Harbour and a warm welcome I'm sure will be given. Why not support the Friendship Rowing Club Nice Views of the Harbour and it's own Beer Garden. The Friendship also the home of the Whitby Folk Club a warm welcome has been given since Mick and Angi Haywood were forced to move from the Plough. We could always have a whip round for Gil and Denise at the Plough in thanks for their past hospitality and support.

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 07:18 PM

so where's the Shambles it's not a venue I know but I do know I shall miss the 1st Saturday of Folk week in the Plough where you you got everything from rockabilly/rock'n'roll to Fields of Athenry /Sloop J B to Jigs/Reels n polkas seamlessly. Absolutely brilliant without an ounce of discord (you were left wondering who was going to start what next) and it all made an absolutely fantastic night

Gerry

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: padgett
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 04:26 AM

Is n't the Shambles what was Burberries Sewing factory in the cobbled Market area some rooms were used for workshops last year

A very nice pub anbd food area in normal time

Excellent venue if I am right

Pity the Plough will not be lilkey to pay its way next year as the revenue fromn the festival must have helped it cash flow

Can my fund managers please note that i do not wish to continue my shareholding in Sam Smith !!

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 04:29 AM

the Shambles is also a night club (ish) sort of venue, might there be a conflict of interests

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 05:23 AM

I don't think Humphrey Smith is motivated by greed, he just has a very strange way of conducting business. They don't advertise anywhere, even the pubs themselves have new signs which don't mention the brewer. He owns vast swathes of Yorkshire, he's in no danger of going bust. Logic does not apply to this man!

Last year was my first Whitby, and I'm glad I dropped in at The Plough. Seems I got a glimpse of the end of an era

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 06:13 AM

End of an era perhaps, but these things have a happy knack of going in circles

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: Tyke
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 07:58 AM

True Raggytash the only trouble is that this being the 40th Folk Week and The Plough and Sam Smiths gave major suport to the First Folk Week. So thinking of it as a circle is ok! But it's a flipping big circle that only a few will see the turning of.

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 08:10 AM

OK ......... then lets look at this as an opportunity to find new venues, spread the music and song to new people, drink something drinkable (which with all due respect to Gil to beer after Sunday in the Plough wasn't)and continue to have good time in the fair seaport of Whitby, The King is dead, long live the King.
Yes, I'll be very sad not to visit the Plough and see old friends (often singing the same songs as last years, but what the hell)listen to old favourites, the assembled company taking the roof off to "Hand me down my walking cane" (a particular special for me)but things more on, nothing stays the same ....... nor should we want it to, if something stays the same it will eventually die.
I for one will still nip in the Plough, if only to sneak into the bog and give a rendition of "Hand me down my walking cane" for old times sake !

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 09:10 AM

I don't wish to sound defeatist & negative here, but I'm afraid there's nothing and nowhere in Whitby to replace the Plough as THE true Heartbeat of Whitby Town (Folk week speaking of course). Where else is there a venue that supports at least FIVE different music sessions at the same time?

1.        The main room (Bar room)
2.        The pool room.
3.        The lounge
4.        Upstairs (singarounds)
5.        Backyard

It's these various locations and such rich variety of music that makes (made) the Plough so unique. Everyone's tastes are (were) catered for, and that provides (provided) a powerful magnet for both musicians and holidaymakers. Other factors are (were) at play here:

The thoroughfare nature of the pub allows (allowed) folks to check all music forms before choosing which flavour to savour.

The wonderful variety within one area location enables (enabled) folks to relax rather than roam around town looking like aimless musical drifters.

Rapid and excellent service at the Bar (can anywhere else cope with that level of turnover in such an efficient way?)

Fantastic atmosphere and a ready-made (and appreciative) audience.

I could go on, but I'm already getting boring. Notice I've not mentioned the quality of the beer, but the stout's always good.

What can replace it? – suggestions on a post card please………

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:56 AM

To emphasise how serious Humphrey Smith is, Sam Smith brewery has now sent round an engineer to disable the sound on the fruit machines in their pubs!

They seem to think that this will make no difference to the punters.

Well it does, because no-one is playing on them anymore. But it's pointless because a lot of people have stopped going into their pubs anyway.

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: Charliestu
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 12:34 PM

I mirror all the sentiments regards the 'demise' of the Plough -I started singing there in 1980.
Yeah but, no but! why not try FILO Folk (First In Last Out Pub at the back of the Hosptial) on a Tuesday night (goin almost 2 years now) and now on a Saturday night wef 16 Apr. Beer is Tetleys and Cameron's, tis a friendly pub as I'm sure Raggytash will vouch for. Just because we're off the beaten track don't mean that it don't happen - we're only a stones throw from the festival's major camp site on route into town.

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 12:38 PM

Will vouch for that indeed, cracking little pub, friendly landlord, tolerant locals who seem to enjoy the craic. the guy who organises the folk night is a bit dodgy though!


You can pay me later Charlie

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 01:01 PM

So what street is the First In Last Out Pub on please?

Gerry

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 02:48 PM

Agreed - it is the heart of the festival, so much music you could spend the whole week there.

Sam Smiths beers would appear to be one obvious thing to do, and that hits at the brewery itself, rather than the licensees. I note from the sites thatbcame up when I googled with "Sam Smiths beer" that they seem to export a fair amount to the States, reasonably enough, since they make some good beer.

But if our friends over there could do us a favour and amend their drinking habits to cut it out, it would be helpful. There's other brewers who haven't done something like this.

And inform the people who import it, of course.

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 02:49 PM

Agreed - it is the heart of the festival, so much music you could spend the whole week there.

Boycotting Sam Smiths beers would appear to be one obvious thing to do, and that hits at the brewery itself, rather than the licensees. I note from the sites thatbcame up when I googled with "Sam Smiths beer" that they seem to export a fair amount to the States, reasonably enough, since they make some good beer.

But if our friends over there could do us a favour and amend their drinking habits to cut it out, it would be helpful. There's other brewers who haven't done something like this.

And inform the people who import it, of course.

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 03:57 AM

So good they said it twice

Subject: RE: Whitby Plough - Folk heartbeat flatlines
From: s&r
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 04:27 AM

Perhaps the new model of the profitable pub is based on Wetherspoons. Whistst I love live music in pubs, there is something very comfortable in a pub with reasonable food and drink at sensible prices, and no Juke box or Musak.

I fear for live pub music, that more chains could go the same way. Rather than avoiding these chains we could all concentrate on a high level of support for the pubs that encourage live music by turning up and filling the pubs on folk nights - if every folkie visited an extra folk night once or twice a monthe the increased profits would send a signal to Sam Smiths et al

Stu