BS: What does patriotism mean to you?

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 02:51 PM

Usually a bad thing, leads to jingoism, us-v-them-ism, and usually anti-them discrimination.

That said, I think that the ideals upon which the USA was founded are worth defending, and a great idea...

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 03:08 PM

Just read the post Barry D and would have guessed it was from "Letters From the Earth" (which it wasn't). Twain--for those who have read beyond his 'children's books'--was quite scathing in his indictment of puffed up social mores and most forms of government. Thanks for posting it. (Don't mean to sound pedantic there.) Lord but that man could turn a phrase to cut to the stomach of a situation.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 03:13 PM

Barry,

We agree I think. I wasn't clear about "don't fly." I meant that, if you fly, you'll miss connecting with the "romance" of the landscape, the road, and what's there.

Good discussion, yes.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 04:19 PM

Jingoism bears a somewhat similar relationship to patriotism that adultery does to fidelity. There is a similarity on one level, but not on the level that matters.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 05:17 PM

Very droll, Mr McGrath!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 06:31 PM

"The patriot's duty is to protect his country from it's Government"
.... Thomas Paine

That's what patriotism means to me.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 11:26 PM

Mariposa Festival is going wonderfully! One more day to go.

I love music. I love my country and its heritage (in a general sense...there were some wrong things done, certainly). I love my nation. Some of that is certainly patriotism. I also love the world. Things will turn around some when people in general develop a wider form of patriotism that is truly global in its reach. We have made some progress in that sense in the last hundred years, I think, but we still have a very long way to go.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Beer
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:22 AM

This is a tough one. I say this because no matter what direction I go to I always come back to what our fellow man/woman has done in the armed services for us. And yet I keep thinking that this can't be the complete answer. Hell i never server. So why does it keep being there? In reading all of the above post I have to agree with all answers and yet I have difficulty in expressing why I am a Patriot. Because god damn it it i am. I love my country and if someone call it down I will fight(with words)for it.

Then two recent post on mudcat made me think that maybe i have some sort of answer. One post came in from our mudcat member "Gnu"on the "Happy Birthday Canada" thread. and here is what he said:


Well, it's been my experience that most of the Canucks I know are just pretty much plain folks. Having said that, I must also say that most of the Canucks I know are fiercely proud of their country's history, especially for it's service in war, it's service in peacekeeping, it's service in foreign aid... but, most importantly, for it's service to fellow Canadians.

Some of you know that my brother has been gravely ill for some time. He entered The Royal Canadian Air Force at 08:00h on July 9, 1961 at the age of seventeen and one half years old. He served until he was fifty five years old; he served in combat, in peacekeeping, in foreign aid; he served far and wide; for 38 years, he was on call 24/7... he was as tough as nails.

On Sunday morning, the call came from the hospital. It would not be long. He was comatose. I'll dispense with the details, but, my mother said he would wait until today to leave because he was an Airman, a Canadian Airman. He passed at 8:30 this morning. She said that the flag waving and singing and fireworks today would be for him. She's right. All of it is for plain old folks that stepped up to the plate and did their part to make Canada what it is, like my brother.

Yes, it is a day for flag waving and being proud to be Canadian. I am. And, I am so proud of my brother. One of my heroes.

Polite? Yes. Reserved? Mostly. Narcissistic? Some. Nice? Depends. Fierce? When need be... Fuck, Fight And Hold The Light. We go with the flow eh. If that's okay with youse eh?

Enjoy the day. And be proud to be a Canuck.


The other was also a recent post and here is the Guest submission ( I realize that Gnu came in as a guest but just forgot to refresh his cookie)


My brother was laid to rest yesterday. He was comatose for a few days, but he hung in there until Tuesday, Canada Day, like the true Airman he was for 31 years. All that flag waving and fireworks and such were for him and everyone like him.... just a regular Canuck that stood up and did his duty to make this country what it is.

He was laid out in dress blues with his first cap appropriately placed on the pillow. Canadian Flag to the left of the coffin, Union Jack and RCAF Flag to the right. A tank commander who fought from The Boot to Rome represented The Legion. A piper recently wounded 20km from Kabul played his final tune as he was placed in the hearse. (I teased the piper that he went the "extra mile" to be home to play for Bill.)

"Bill" was born January 9, 1944. His mother died July 20, 1945, from food poisoning after a lobster scoff to celebrate the eve of the due date of the twins she was carrying. The twins were lost as well. My old man was in England, training officer cadets at Aldershot when she passed.

Bill was taken by his maternal grandparents, whereupon my Gramma marched across town, walked into their house, scooped Bill up and marched back home, where he remained until Dad married Mum when Bill was seven years old.

Bill grew up in a rough neighborhood, mostly a mix of Irish and French. Both endured subjugation in their old countries which continued to some extent in the new world. Bill learned to fight at an early age and it served him well in the coming years.

On October 20, 1951, Dad married Mum and Bill had a new family. At the age of seven, things were a bit rough. But, Mum's a saint and she endured. I came along on March 7, 1957, and Mum endured, as did Bill... hehehe.

My earliest recollection of my brother was walking to the street corner with him when I was about two years old. He was on his way to school and I didn't want him to go. I tried to run out to catch up with him in the street and he had to run back and grab me before I was struck by a car. He took a car bumper in the face for me.

He used to tickle me until I couldn't breathe. I hated that. And he used to grab me by the wrists and slap me in the face with my own hands. Prick. But, the day I managed to punch him and make his nose bleed, he smiled and said he was ever so proud of me. We never fought again.

He signed up in the Royal Canadian Air Force on July 9, 1961. At that time, in Canada, you could sign the papers at seventeen and one half years old for induction at eighteen without a parent's permission. It was at that point that he decided that he would throw himself into military life wholeheartedly. And he certainly did. He did not finish high school. That is the reason he never made officer. But, he made Master Sergeant; a rank which I understand does not exist anymore, which was at one time Flight Sergeant (I am not sure of the terms.) And, he had quite a career… from Germany (twice) to Cyprus to Sardinia to Alert, NWT (the farthest north in the world), to HQ Ottawa and HQ CENTAG Europe where he was in charge of security for both HQ facilities. In CFB Trenton, he was the heart of the hospital and Medevac services. He was for decades on call 24/7 for his country. He saw combat, peacekeeping and paperwork.

He was, in the 60's and 70's, one of the best skeet shooters in the world. His Browning custom made over and under with gold inlay is a tribute to him by Browning. It's priceless. Of course, while he was traveling the world, Dad was teaching me how to hunt. So, Bro was a bit pissed off when I showed him up in the bush with my old piece of crap. Kinda like tickling him back… hehehe.

Ya know, there are just tooooo many stories I could tell you about my brother Bill. So, I will end this by saying… Thanks, Bill, my brother, and a hero to me.

All of what GNU has said makes my heart move and be proud that I am a Canadian. So I guess as much as we hate wars, the deep feeling inside me when our country is in peril falls back to our military. Damn I hate saying that. Yet Damn I'm proud of our military men and women that make our country strong and are out there holding our flag high.

Gnu, if you read the above , I hope you don't mind. Yes, I could have just pasted the thread titles but I really felt that as an up standing member, I should paste all of what you said.
Adrien

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Beer
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:26 AM

"Up standing member". Meaning you Gnu. Not me.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:27 AM

I've stewed on this all day and here are some more thoughts.

Gk. patriotes "fellow countryman," from patrios "of one's fathers," patris "fatherland," from pater (gen. patros) "father," with -otes, suffix expressing state or condition.

Children are the most truly conservative people on Earth. They have to be, their present and future depends upon the care others give them. A child will fight moving house UNLESS the parents present it in the right way. The child will fight every change because the child sees it as a threat UNLESS the parents present the change in the right light.

A parent loses a job: "Mom, will we go hungry? Will be still be able to live here?" A parent dies or leaves: "Dad, what will happen to us now?"

The earliest form of patriotism is the self-protection of the child, for a child has its self-interest at heart. It has to because that self-interest means survival, down in the dirt, naked, survival. Adults only exist to help the child survive, from the child's point of view, and the child will resist anything that threatens the status quo.

As we get older our world enlarges: from the immediate family to include relatives (even Aunt Marge, who gives such big sloppy kisses at family gatherings), then the neighbors, then the other kids around us -- perhaps "our gang" or "our friends." And when one of the friends gets into trouble we don't "rat them out" because we are loyal to more than our family now.

Eventually we learn about our town or city, our school, our sports team, and God help anyone who badmouths them! Of course, it's not called "patriotism" at this level, but "loyalty" or "school spirit" or "team support." But it still is patriotism, for we have taken whatever we have taken as part of ourselves, made it "family."

This patriotism creates bonds that are incomprehensible to those who haven't experienced them. Those who have experienced combat -- who have cared for their wounded, dying, or dead friends; who have had those friends kill someone who would have killed them; who have shared their last bit of water during a firefight (combat vets will know what I mean) -- have a bound stronger than love. Cops, firefighters, EMTs, the folks on duty in the Emergency Room (and in Labor and Delivery), in short, those who have been on the front lines of life and death -- form these bonds. They might have a sense of humor that is darker than you can imagine, but it keeps them sane and reinforces the "patriotism" their jobs demand, because in these situations (and others) you must be able to depend upon those with whom you work.

Eventually we expand this still further and apply it to our country. It is here where the trouble starts, for it is here that loyalty to others can be manipulated for the good of a few or for one, a "tyrannos" if you will.

Americans apply patriotism to the ideals upon which their country was founded -- to the ideas written in the Constitution, and even the President is bound by an oath to that document (whether he abides by his oath is another story, and many have not).

I don't think anyone can love an abstraction unless you know what it really means. "Love"? "Country"? Bah. I love my wife and my family and I might learn to love you too, but not until I know you. I attended a reunion of the guys who were part of my National Guard unit when it was activated back in 1968 recently -- I "love" them, but not as I love my brothers or my wife, because I know I can depend upon them, they've proven themselves.

Where I think I'm going with this is that I do not "love my country", but I do love the ideals upon which it was founded by imperfect men trying for perfection.

And look what's happened because of what those men did: revolutions in France, in Ireland, in Russia, in China and in other places -- imperfect as the might have turned out -- were based upon the writings done in Philadelphia in 1789. I could even argue that a revolution took place in the US, starting when a woman didn't give up her seat on a bus.

"The oppressed should rebel, and they will continue to rebel and raise disturbance until their civil rights are fully restored to them and all partial distinctions, exclusions and incapacitations are removed." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776.

Unfortunately and all too often, We teach them to take their patriotism at second-hand; to shout with the largest crowd without examining into the right or wrong of the matter--exactly as boys under monarchies are taught and have always been taught. We teach them to regard as traitors, and hold in aversion and contempt, such as do not shout with the crowd, and so here in our democracy we are cheering a thing which of all things is most foreign to it and out of place--the delivery of our political conscience into somebody else's keeping. This is patriotism on the Russian plan. - Mark Twain, a Biography.

And In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot. - Mark Twain, Notebook, 1904.

To be a true patriot requires work and courage. To conclude what has already become too long, a long quote, again from Mark Twain:

A man can be a Christian or a patriot, but he can't legally be a Christian and a patriot--except in the usual way: one of the two with the mouth, the other with the heart. The spirit of Christianity proclaims the brotherhood of the race and the meaning of that strong word has not been left to guesswork, but made tremendously definite- the Christian must forgive his brother man all crimes he can imagine and commit, and all insults he can conceive and utter- forgive these injuries how many times?--seventy times seven--another way of saying there shall be no limit to this forgiveness. That is the spirit and the law of Christianity. Well--Patriotism has its laws. And it also is a perfectly definite one, there are not vaguenesses about it. It commands that the brother over the border shall be sharply watched and brought to book every time he does us a hurt or offends us with an insult. Word it as softly as you please, the spirit of patriotism is the spirit of the dog and wolf. The moment there is a misunderstanding about a boundary line or a hamper of fish or some other squalid matter, see patriotism rise, and hear him split the universe with is war-whoop. The spirit of patriotism being in its nature jealous and selfish, is just in man's line, it comes natural to him- he can live up to all its requirements to the letter; but the spirit of Christianity is not in its entirety possible to him.

The prayers concealed in what I have been saying is, not that patriotism should cease and not that the talk about universal brotherhood should cease, but that the incongruous firm be dissolved and each limb of it be required to transact business by itself, for the future. - Mark Twain's Notebook.

Yeah, perhaps this should have been on MOAB.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: mg
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:57 AM

Live and let live and harm none. Nice thoughts. The only problem is that for the forseeable future, there are others who will take advantage of your kindly nature and torture, rape and enslave others while you (generically) stand by and wring your hands (generically). mg

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Bert
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 03:15 AM

To me, patriotism boils down to love of my neighbors. For some reason that includes those that I don't like too much.

I was sitting on the hood of the truck last night watching the fireworks and playing the guitar. When I started "This Land is Your Land" everyone joined in, I choked up and could hardly finish the song. That is patriotism for me.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,Billybob
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:14 AM

Sounds like the same film at the beginning of the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:29 AM

I never realised I was so isolated in my view of patriotism. No wonder I have difficulty getting in sync with this traditional folk music business.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:45 AM

The best thing that I have ever heard said on the subject of patriotism came from an Englishman. From 1967 through 1969 Father William Casserley was temporarily reassigned from his home parish in the UK to St Giles church; a small Episcopalian church in Northbrook, Illinois in the United States. This was as all of the political and cultural insanity of the late 1960's were coming to a head.
    The battle cry, as it were, of the political right was "My country, right or wrong". Father Casserley pointed out that true patriotism might be better expresed by the words, "My country, and, God, may it please be right".

      Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:47 AM

BTW, shouldn't that film scene, described at the begining of the thread, end with either the soldier or the girl getting a pie in the face?

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:51 AM

Oh! One more thing (if you'll pardon the Peter Falk impression). There is a similar discussion going on in the thread entitled "Independence Day" .

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 10:39 AM

patriotism aligned with 'the military' raises an element of concern with me.

just my 2 cents worth ... payday isn't til next friday.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 12:22 PM

The original quote was from Stephen Decatur, who said:
"Our country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, may she always be in the right; but our country, right or wrong."

A reasonable definition of patriotism, IMO

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 01:05 PM

It's when patriotism and nationalism meld that trouble starts.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 01:11 PM

If hell has a religion, it is Nationalism---and possibly Patriotism -- way too often.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 03:55 PM

Never said it was good--or bad. Just trying to say what I think it means.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:08 PM

Good discussion! I don't think I'm saying anything that hasn't already been said here by others, but here goes anyway!

Patriotism. Tricky subject. I can understand it in a sense—a sort of affinity with the area in which random chance determined that one would be born, especially if one lived in that location for a time. But I have never understood the fanatical adherence some people have to a plot of land.

I have lived in Seattle off and on almost all my life, but I spent my first nine years in Southern California—Pasadena, to be exact. In the mid-1980s, my wife and I flew to Long Beach (which, like Pasadena, could be regarded as a suburb of the sprawling Los Angeles megalopolis) to visit friends for a week or two. When we stepped off the plane at the Long Beach airport, suddenly the feel of the air, the temperature, the smells, the sight of tall palm trees—I had this strange feeling that I had "returned home." My reaction when I got off the plane was immediate and visceral. Yet, during the many decades that I have lived in the Pacific Northwest, I can't say that I really missed Southern California. And when I got off the plane a week or so later at the Seattle-Tacoma airport, I had that same feeling I'd felt in Long Beach. I had "returned home."

During my grade school years in California, along with the usual curriculum (readin', writin', 'rithmetic), I was also instructed in a number of patriotic practices, such as the flag code (proper and respectful handling of the flag, when to display it, etc.), and was required to memorize such things as the Pledge of Allegiance and the words to "The Star-Spangled Banner." I received an extra credit gold star for drawing the American flag with colored pencils, with the Pledge of Allegiance carefully printed beneath it.

The flag, the Pledge of Allegiance, the national anthem, are the external trappings—the ritual—of what we refer to as patriotism. Some folks regard these ritualistic aspects as sacrosanct and never seem to get beyond them to what those ritual practices are supposed to represent (a not uncommon in other areas as well). I began to learn what these things meant some years later in high school. My American history teacher was excellent. Along with the usual high points, he did not shy away from such things as slavery and what led up to the Civil War, and treatment of Native Americans. He also taught civics classes, in which we studied the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. One important lesson that came across was that when the country went wrong, it was generally because it failed to observe the principles stated in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

If one is well-acquainted with the Constitution, a little gimlet-eyed observation reveals that some of our elected national leaders, despite taking an oath to preserve and protect the Constitution upon entering office, did not and do not always abide by that oath. This was (is) generally in order to benefit some private interests with which they were associated or to which they felt some obligation. In fact, it often appears to be something of a game. How far can they depart from the Constitution and the Bill of Rights before the citizens noticed and protested?

Well—quite a distance, it appears. Lobbying has become a commonly accepted practice in American politics. For "lobbying," read "bribery." Why is this tolerated?

I kept hearing that "America is the greatest country in the world." And, indeed, it has some fine achievements in its history. The stated principles on which the country was founded are admirable—and were indeed ground-breaking at the time they were adopted. But if one examines aspects of the country's history that most high school teachers are reluctant to talk about, and if one is aware of the continuing revelations from "whistle-blowers" about how some of our elected officials and our government agencies really operate, it more than establishes that "the greatest country in the world" has a very dark side. That dark side, motivated by greed and power-lust, callously disregards the plight of the country's weakest and neediest citizens in order to pander to the richest and most powerful. And it engages in bullying and exploitive behavior toward other countries around the world, and then either conceals it or wraps it in the flag in order to hoodwink American citizens into accepting it, usually in the name of "national security."

This emotional mantra, "America is the greatest country in the world," blinds many people to the fact that there are older and wiser countries from whom we could learn much. For example, a comparison of the allocation of tax revenues that the United States government spends on such things as education, health, the military, etc., with what other countries spend is very revealing, especially if one also compares rates of infant mortality, longevity, the availability of quality health care to all citizens, quality of education, standard of living—and satisfaction with life in general (Denmark leads here), reveals the uncomfortable fact that, by almost every index, America can hardly be considered as "the greatest country in the world."

If we feel that other countries should embrace the "American way of life," trying to cram it down their throats with the butt of a rifle is not the way to go about it. First of all, we need to abandon that jingoistic mantra and do an agonizing reappraisal of just what our "American way of life" amounts to, and see how it compares with that in the U. K., in France, in Germany, Norway, Sweden, the rest of Europe, in other parts of the world such as Japan, Australia. . . .

There is a simple principle:   if we think other countries should embrace our way of life, then our way of life needs to be admirable and desirable enough so they want to embrace it. We should lead, not by force, not by admonition, but by example. If our hubris as Americans is so great that we feel like we need to be parents to the rest of the world, then there is a valuable lesson in parenting in a work of fiction:   To Kill a Mockingbird, by Harper Lee. Atticus Finch knew that if his children were to grow up to be moral persons, then he had to be that kind of person himself.

I recently heard of a small Central American country (one of the countries usually characterized as a "banana republic" ruled by a petty military dictator) where the democratically elected president and governing body determined that their relations with both their citizens and their neighbors were sufficiently stable and friendly that they had no need of military forces, so they disbanded their military and applied the money saved to improving their educational system.

"But we need our military!" you say. "Why?" say I. "Because of the terrorists! Because of the people in the world who hate America!" you answer. But I then respond:   "Perhaps we should ask the terrorists, 'Why do you hate us so much?' And then we should listen carefully to their answer."

The true patriot is often labeled by others as being unpatriotic. The true patriot is often confronted by the exasperated remark, "Well, if you don't like it here in America, why don't you go somewhere else?" Well, maybe that's not such a bad question. A lot of Americans are descendants of people who emigrated from countries that were tyrannical or oppressive. Many people emigrated from Germany in the 1930s. So that's always an option. But of course that means there would be one less person who sees what's wrong and can help attempt to set things right.

The true patriot is loyal to the moral principles and the stated ideals upon which the country was founded. Not to the elected officials. Especially when those elected officials stray from those principles and ideals. Elected officials, upon entering office, take an oath to uphold those principles and ideals, and it is the moral obligation of the true patriot to call them on it if they depart from their oath. And to keep calling them on it, in the company of other patriots, until they are either shamed into returning to those principles or are replaced by other elected officials who will.

On a travel program on the radio a few days ago, the interviewer asked a travel writer why it is that a particular European country's government seems to be especially responsive to the needs of its citizens. "Because," said the travel writer, "they have a long history of throwing out corrupt or unresponsive leaders. Elected officials are afraid of what the citizens might do if they don't toe the line."

A true patriot is not someone who is rooted to a particular plot of land. A true patriot is one who adheres to a set of principles and ideals. And when and if the country fails to live up to those principles and ideals, the true patriot takes a stand, cries "foul!" and demands that its elected officials either return to those principles or be replaced.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 05:29 PM

When right, to be kept right, and when wrong to be put right.

Good essay, Don Firth!


A

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: DougR
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:40 PM

Patriotism: To me, it is exemplified by the lump I get in my throat when I see a young man or young woman dressed in the uniform of our country at an airport either returning from a dangerous place or going to one. Or a service man or woman returning home from basic or boot training or returning to report for duty after leave at home is over. It is the gratitude I feel for being able to live in a country where I am free to think, write and say what I please, a place where one can disagree with the point of view of another and still be friends. It is the freedom to travel wherever I please within the borders of my country without having to produce a passport or a driver's license to some federal official.

It's the tingly feeling I get when I hear "The Star Spangled Banner" or "America the Beautiful" performed the way the composer intended it to be heard.

It's responding to your Country's needs when called upon instead of boarding a bus to another country. It is the sadness of seeing and hearing a bugler blow taps over the grave of a young person who has lost his or her life in the service of our country.

It's paying taxes when due to pay for our national security, federal highway system and needed social services.

It has NOTHING to do with political parties:Democrat, Republican, Green or Independent.

I'm older than most of the folks on this forum I would guess, and when I was young we were taught patriotism in our schools. We learned the pledge of allegiance at an early age, and we also learned to respect and salute our flag when appropriate.

I doubt that much of that stuff is taught anymore because one must be politically correct in these "progressive" days, and one must not run the risk of hurting the feelings of those who may or may not believe or feel as you do.

I thank God every day of my life for having been born in the United States of America and I'm not ashamed to admit it.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 06:46 PM

"False are the bickering reigns
Of honor, of homeland, of war
That nourish the torrents of hate,
and flow through the valleys of death,"

    "The Seasons of Peace" Bob Beers

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 08:37 PM

Doug I sort of understand what you mean. As you know I even wrote a song about it. You wrote to me at the time I'd just written it. Remember?

a href="http://www.americasupportsyou.mil/americasupportsyou/america/music/land_called_america.mp3">http://www.americasupportsyou.mil/americasupportsyou/america/music/land_called_america.mp3


However you gotta face it. Young people are very biddable. And young people have always been ready to lay down their lives - sometimes for quite unworthy causes.

We owe to it to our sacred dead, really to concentrate on the worthwhile things that they died for. Rather than their scarifice. And when you get down to it - its really for all kinds of open midedness, craziness and diversity that makes our societies so hard to beat.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 08:44 PM

In my opinion, this was the greatest country in the world until 8 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: john f weldon
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 08:50 PM

A Northern view...

land of the free

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Beer
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 09:54 PM

John,
When did you record this?
Adrien

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: john f weldon
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 10:08 PM

Beer..
October 06, I believe...
JFW

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 10:48 PM

Love the song, John.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 11:30 PM

I think that defining "patriotism" also leads to the question "What ideals, what or who in general, are you willing to die for?" And don't give me that Patton crap of "Let the other sonofbitch die for his country."

If you were put to the test RIGHT NOW, what would you be willing to die for? Your country's leader? Your neighbor? Because it's expected of you? What your country says it stands for? For your religious beliefs? Your Martin D-28? Your children? Your spouse? For a child you don't know?

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:23 AM

a challenging and interesting song. I enjoyed it. I'd like to hear more of your work.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:29 AM

great! I found your website!

http://weldonalley.ca/bio/biography.html

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 03:37 AM

""Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Rapaire - PM
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 11:30 PM

I think that defining "patriotism" also leads to the question "What ideals, what or who in general, are you willing to die for?""



For the right to lead the life I was brought up to, embracing the culture and heritage of my ancestors. For the freedom of my family, and the families of others, to live without fear and oppression, and possibly for the rights of those in other countries to do the same (but ONLY if invited, by those people, to do so).

As you can see, a very short list. I would never be prepared to die out of loyalty to any MAN, or any political movement.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 04:20 AM

If what you were willing to die for, was the lodestone, then Soviet Communism would probably be the winner. Twenty million people died for that in WW2 alone.

Its surely more a question of what we live for and the way we live. the way our country has shaped us.

Looking back on the deprivation and starvation that my fanily went through in the 1920's and before the First world war, I'm not sure why my family thought the place was worth fighting for. But the country must have imparted something to them that made them willing to fight, and more importantly - willing to struggle with life and try to achieve something.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 08:54 AM

The question is silly. I'm not willing to die for anything, but I sure as hell would put myself in harm's way to protect my country and my loved ones.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:22 AM

I agree with you, Kendall.

I deliberately phrased the question the way I did and admit that phrased that way it's a loaded question.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stu
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:33 AM

This is a fascinating thread, but something ard said has been in my mind since I replied to it, and I think I finally might have put my finger on how it relates to me and this thread.

Ard said: "Certainly the Brits regard their army as snow-white, guiltless of every crime they are charged with, for all of that, they are not in the same league as the US when it come to blind patritism."

Form where Ard sits and given his experiences of the British Army, this might seem like a fair statement, but reading this thread and the amount of times the military has been mentioned I'd like to offer an alternative view of what patriotism is to me.

I am what many of you would call a typical Brit. Welsh mum, English dad, rumours of Scot and Irish blood in the family but unproven so far - basically a person of the Isles. I've been doing my family history and we're all Ag Labs - until the railways appeared and my great-grandfather (who knew the plough) did what the chap in Nic Jones' song did and left the land and went and worked the on the technological wonder of the day, the railway.

In mid-Wales, my family were prevented from owning the land they worked by a system of bringing in Scottish farmers to run the farms that came up for sale. On a recent visit to one of the farms a great-great grandfather worked on in a forgotten corner of England on the Welsh border the current tenant (a loverly chap, happy to let me look around) was himself a descendant of one of these very interlopers. Gradually, the land my families worked on was taken away under the Acts of Enclosure that finally dispossessed the people of the land their ancestors had farmed and grazed on since they had settled after the last ice age. They were forced into working on large estates and finally off the land altogether and into the urban working-class ghettos of the big cities and industrial areas.

The oppression metered out by The British Empire and the regimes before it has caused as much suffering to it's own poor as it has those of the countries it conquered. Like so many families, my family were people of the land who have been forced to abandon their birthright so rich people could become richer. The governments that oppressed those cultures they invaded so ruthlessly were also oppressing their own people here, and continue to do so, eroding our basic freedoms and waging war in our name on people we shouldn't be fighting.

It's often argued the English don't have the heart for rebellion, but this is untrue and the history of England has many examples of ordinary people rising up against the oppresive ruling classes.

From the days of Eadric the Wild refusing to submit to the rule of William the Bastard, Wat Tyler and the Peasant's Revolt against the Poll Tax and their ancestors rioting in London as Thatcher imposed her own version of this unfair and hated tax 800 years later, Winstanley and the Diggers - still beyond their time now, over 250 years after the government of the time brutally put down these peaceful revolutionaries protest, from the Tolpuddle Martyrs deported for fighting for their rights and the protesters butchered at Peterloo in Manchester for seeking fair representation in the parliament that had spent so long oppressing them, Luddites and Levellers, Marx and Engels inspired to write the Communist manifesto in Cheetham Library, the miners, steelworkers and shipbuilders who fought for their communities on the face of heartless and despicable industry management and ministers.

Here is where my loyalties lay, and in many ways it goes against the very idea of patriotism. I don't feel tingly when I see a Union flag, I feel sick and the national anthem is the antithesis of how I feel about the Royal Family and their parasitic relations. I don't subscribe to being British and I don't care for Tories or New Labour or BNP or Lib Dems or any of those self-interested maggots who want to run the ever-dissolving Union. I'm tired of the politics. I hate cricket.

I do feel tingly when I think of how the ordinary men and women of the home countries have struggled and survived despite the odds stacked against them. The music, stories, accents and languages are the birthrights we haven't been dispossessed of and they are priceless. I go back to the country my family farmed in- land which is in my DNA and I get tingly, I stand on the Atlantic coasts of our islands feeling the might of the ocean in front of me and the depth and history of the land behind me and get tingly, I walk in the woods and fields near my home and watch the rooks and jackdaws loop and whiffle to the roost - this is my home and I love it.

And that might just be worth fighting for.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: DougR
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:18 PM

stigweard: That's a very interesting post. Thanks for writing it.

weelittledrummer: yes, I do remember writing you. Thanks for remembering that I did.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:23 PM

A timely subject for discussion, with the Olympic Games looming - and with them the 20th anniversary of those sensational Black Power salutes. The saluters, it may be recalled, had to be expelled from the games and from the Olymic village because they violated the Olympic spirit. What staggering hypocrisy! The Olympic Games are mired in nationalism for which there would have been no place in the original Olympiads. And it's not just the national anthems. Whether in Hitler's propaganda coup of 1936, the cold-war boycotts or the present Chinese baton-trailing farce, the whole circus is riddled with nationalistic self-interests.

I'm a bit uneasy about the loyalty Kendall and Co claim for their country, for the same reason that I am a bit uneasy about the Mark Twain quote used by Azizi: "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time..." If some guy is fundamentally opposed his/her a country's leadership, and the leadership is representative of majority opinion, how then does he support his country?

Well Big Mick addressed the government/country question pretty well for me. I agree completely with what ard mhacha said, and I also go along with weelittledrummer's general line.

That national pride does not come naturally is evidenced in the spectacle of American children reciting the oath like automatons. Or North Koreans revering their Dear Leader. Or desperate Germans, after years of tasting dirt, rising to salute their fuehrer.

Nationality (like ones religion in an overwhelming majority of cases) is determined not by free will but by an accident of birth. How can we take pride in something that's beyond our influencing? Doug R is on more rational ground thanking his god daily for being born American. But in reality I suspect he is thanking God for having been born into privilege. He might have been less profligate with his gratitude if he had been born into deprivation and disadvantage, which is the fate for millions of Americans.

In 1980 my brother was head-hunted for an aero-engineering research job in Cincinnatti on a salary vastly in excess of what he was earning for similar work in the UK. As part of the enticement he was sent a local magazine containing nothing but real-estate ads. This rather parochial, low-budge product had a front cover entirely taken up with a photo taken from the bottom of a flag-pole, showing the Stars and Stripes fluttering against a clear blue sky. Across the photo, in white characters reversed out of the blue sky, a simple message was intoned: "Remember the hostages." This on the front of a local real-estate magazine, remember. On speaking to friends in the US we discovered that such reminders were ubiquitous across America throughout 1980. It was a major factor in deciding against the job.

I don't say hostages should ever be forgotten of course. But it's a trauma many countries have had to live with. Yet it is only in the US that national pride would require such an excess of maudlin sentiment for month after month, while many other of the world's traumas slide by unnoticed.

To those who see any merit in patriotism I would ask: is it a universal good? Or is it of merit only if ones country is (say) America?

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:31 PM

As if my post above were not already over-long, I must add a sentence that I somehow lost from the end of the paragraph that begins: "That national pride does not come naturally...." Here it is:

They rely in varying degrees on braiwashing and the manipulation of crowd behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 01:51 PM

"Patriotism" is a word, like "worship", that has no meaning to me. My first allegiance is to my concept of Divinity, and because I believe that there is no separation between the creator and the created, I don't see any greater value in one part of creation over another, or in one inhabitant of the creation over another.

I feel very fortunate to be able to have a relatively good standard of living (though I would feel even more fortunate if I had access to medical care), but I know that I could have that (and access to medical care) in some other countries, so I don't see myself as living in the best country in the world... just one of the best when it comes to standard of living. I don't think I feel any freer in the US than I would feel if I lived in any number of other industrialized countries. I definitely feel freer when I'm in Canada than I do here in the US.

But as has been mentioned already, when the country of one's birth is in trouble, sometimes it's better to stick around and help make things better than to go elsewhere and wait for the trouble to catch up with you.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 02:41 PM

Weelittledrummer - I don't think it's exactly accurate to say that those 20 million Russians died in WWII for "Soviet Communism". That just happened to be the government and system that was in power at the time. They did not die for an "ism", they died for Mother Russia....for their homeland...for their families and homes and all that they ever knew. They would have done the same if any other "ism" had been in charge of Russia at the time.

Likewise, most of the Germans who died did not die for Naziism, in my opinion. They died for Germany, for their nation, for their ancient traditions and loyalties, for the families and towns that were at their backs...as well as for the men in their unit or on their ship who fought beside them.

It's always that way. People fight for their national identity, their homes and families, and their brothers in arms. And THAT is the heart of what truly is patriotism.

The governments and the political masters and their propaganda come and go like masks over a face, and they are soon replaced by new ones...but the nation itself remains as a true and living thing that goes deep into the hearts of its people.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 06:08 PM

Don't forget that the Russians (and probably others) used prisoners as shock troops -- leading the charge, provided with weapons and ammunition just before the charge, and if they didn't attack or retreated they were shot. Death behind vs. possible death before: take your pick.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 06:09 PM

"Death behind vs. possible death before: take your pick."

May I have what's behind door number three please, Rapaire?

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: alanabit
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 04:04 AM

I have been reading and learning a lot here. People have been telling us what the word means for themselves and not what it should mean for everyone else. Thank-you, because that is what I asked for. The way you see these things is inevitably subjective, formed by your personal experiences, history and knowledge. It springs from a complex cocktail of facts and emotions – many of which can be contradictory. Many of you have described that very openly and honestly.

Stigeward's superb post encapsulated a lot of the complex feelings, which I also have for my native land – although I come from Cornwall originally. Cornwall is even smaller than Wales and its native language disappeared with Dolly Pentreath two and a half centuries ago – largely as result of the systematic destruction of its "non English" culture. To many countries, the Union Jack was a symbol of imperialism, exploitation and suppression. Like all empires, that exploitation began at home.

Yet the community and the land of Cornwall feel palpably mine somehow. It's a way of life, which I understand and when I stand on Bodmin Moor or Kit Hill or the banks of the Lhyner, I love the very stones and they are part of me. I don't feel that same way about England, although I revere parts of the history and am blessed with (an albeit very imperfect) knowledge of its literature, music and culture.

Fate made me a busker, a songwriter and now a teacher and I have lived most of my adult life in Germany and travelled around Central Europe. My girlfriend is German. My children, the irreplaceable treasure of my life, speak German to me. I admire this country with its basically liberal and fair outlook. Its human rights record since the war shames that of most other countries. It has learned from the past and worked hard to face up to its imperfections. Germans can suffer sporting disappointment and react with a cheerful and fair, "Well done!" to their opponents. The Germans gave the world the "Wohlstand", which in my opinion is one of the most significantly decent and realistic concepts, which has actually been carried out in the history of our planet. Yet with all this to admire, I will never be German.

I understand (as much as anyone can) why my country was one of those at war with Germany just over half a century ago. If you go back and read George's post about how he would feel about a conflict between Greece and the UK, you will understand exactly about how I feel about the UK and Germany. I want our football team to beat theirs. I also want to watch the game together and drink with the Germans before and after.

For me patriotism starts with loving the people where I came from. What makes me proud of my country is the way the people reacted to the Penlee Lifeboat Disaster. The day after eight local men lost their lives, trying to save strangers from a stricken Irish coaster, thousands volunteered to take their place. This is as different to the brutal jingoism of "Ingerland, Ingerland" from racist thugs as one can get. Kindness and generosity to strangers makes me proud of my country. We don't always get it right and we have done many horrible things along the road. We are no better than anyone, but we are as good as anyone. That is the sort of patriotism I wish to embrace.

Please excuse this long and rambling post. I am very grateful for all those, who have taken the time to illustrate so beautifully what it all means for you.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stu
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:24 AM

After reading Alanabit's post I realised it looks like I was saying I was born in Wales - I wasn't, but this was part of the point and I think I wasn't clear enough.

I was born in Winchester, moved to a town just outside Birmingham just before I was two and was brought up there until a traumatic move to a town south of Manchester when I had just turned 16, so this would make me English by birth (although I consider myself a Brummie first and foremost).

The reason for doing the family history was because my family had such a strong Welsh cultural bias and for my Mum and I it was always a very important part of our upbringing, and I wanted to find out for certain where we had come from. The sense of Welsh identity was so much more defined than the sense of Englishness on my Dad's side - as though there was a firmer base so to speak.

All I have discovered on this so far fantastic journey has confirmed my views on patriotism and it's consequences. I am connecting with aspects of my Welsh heritage I have never been able to - the music, language (which I've tried to learn in the past), the stories and poetry in this the most oppressed of all the Celtic nations.

How do I reconcile these two sides of my family? Well, not through patriotism, unless I want to take sides and deny either my Englishness or Welshness. No, the common thread is the fact on either side my family were ordinary people who over the years have (like so many people's families here) worked the land under the oppressive gaze of the landlord and king, soldier and knight, parliament and government.

Subject: RE: BS: What does patriotism mean to you?
From: Stu
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 05:27 AM

100 - bostin!