theology question

Subject: RE: theology question
From: Giac
Date: 09 Sep 00 - 07:02 PM

Once when my uncle, who was born in 1903, stuck a fish hook in his hand, he yelled, "Jesus Hoppin' Christ on a crutch!"

I was fairly small and asked if he had made that up. After apologizing for saying it in the first place, he muttered that he had heard and old man say it when he was a child.

A friend, who was born and grew up in the UK, used the expression, "Good God in a closet!" I've often wondered about the origin of that.

Subject: RE: theology question
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 10 Sep 00 - 04:50 PM

The thread and Amos's contribution somehow bring to mind a couple of lines from a recitation I heard in Ulster, and have done my best to forget:

Mounted on his charger, he rode up to the hall,
"Lord Jesus," cried the butler, "he's come to fuck us all."

Subject: RE: theology question
From: kendall
Date: 10 Sep 00 - 05:03 PM

You have a good memory Amos.

Subject: RE: theology question
From: Parson
Date: 10 Sep 00 - 05:13 PM

In defence of those of us who are Seminary trained, I must confess that I did not take the elective, Sacrilege 101 that "Lonesome" referenced earlier. In our particular branch of Protestantism, we do not employ the initials, "IHS." But I do remember learning that they stand for the phrase, "Jesus Christ, Savior." Beyond that, I am at a loss for words in this discussion of blasphemous oaths. I'm afraid that after 3 years of Seminary, I don't have a clue as to what the "H" stands for.

I was only taught one thing in a similar vein, and that is, "What does a Preacher say when he hits his thumb with a hammer?" The answer is "Ouch!"

Randall

Subject: RE: theology question
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 10 Sep 00 - 05:14 PM

Mine's good enough to know that there might be just a tiny trace of sarcasm in that post kendall. What's your point?

Subject: RE: theology question
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 Sep 00 - 05:17 PM

I've had several experiences with the monastic life - strange as I'm female, let's not go down that road, but....

A new thurifer (chap who carries the smoking handbag) was being used at an important service at a small though quite well known Franciscan friary in Dorset. This chap was young and enthusiastic, and given to moments of vanity and pride. He was giving the thurible (the smoking handbag) a few experimental swings in the sacristy (dressing room) end of the chapel that was made in a converted barn, this end being the short arm of an L shape..... He was quite happily swinging it this way and that, the arc ever increasing, up to shoulder height, over his head, that sort of thing..... All well and good until the procession reached the main body of the chapel, the long arm of the L, with its cross beams.......

Suffice it to say, there was burning charcoal everywhere, and frocked friars were heard to say various prayers ranging from 'Fuck, fuck fuck' to 'Oh sweet Jesus on a No. 9 bus, take me now.....' One of those moments you can never really recreate..... And that was just the frocked friars - the "civilian" members of the congregation were, if anything, more restrained!!

LTS. who will tell the other stories if bribed with sufficient quantities of chocolate.....

Subject: RE: theology question
From: Naemanson
Date: 10 Sep 00 - 05:27 PM

Can we creep this thread over to cover the things people say when they want to swear and/or blaspheme but cannot? I grew up around devout potato farmers. I heard "sugar" instead of "s**t", "fudge" instead of "f**k", and the oath of the day was Judas Priest.

And I distinctly remember my father using "Jesus H. Galloping Christ on a crutch!" in moments of extreme irritation.

Subject: RE: theology question
From: R!
Date: 10 Sep 00 - 05:38 PM

The following comes directly from Michael Quinion's word site (quinion.com):

Q. From Paul Tracy in the UK: "During an Internet ialogue, the question came up - why do people say Jesus H Christ? It never seems to be any other letter. It sounds American, but what does it stand for and where did it originate? Holy seems to be a strong candidate, or could it be from "Hallowed be Thy (middle) name"?"

A. There have been various theories, but the one that seems most plausible is that it comes from the Greek monogram for Jesus, IHS or IHC. This is formed from the first two letters plus the last letter of His name in Greek (the letters iota, eta, and sigma; in the second instance, the C is a Byzantine Greek form of sigma). The H is actually the capital letter form of eta, but churchgoers who were unfamiliar with Greek took it to be a Latin H. The oath does indeed seem to be American, first recorded in print at the end of the nineteenth century, although around 1910 Mark Twain wrote in his Autobiography that the expression had been in use about 1850 and was considered old even then. Its long survival must have a lot to do with its cadence, and the way that an especially strong emphasis can be placed on the H. Nineteenth-century Americans weren't the first to take the Greek letters to be Latin ones - since medieval times the monogram has often been expanded into Latin phrases, such as Iesus Hominum Salvator, Jesus Saviour of Men, In Hoc Signo (vinces), in this sign (thou shalt conquer), and In Hac Salus, in this (cross) is salvation.

World Wide Words is copyright © Michael B Quinion, 1996-2000. All rights reserved. August 2000.

Sorry for the length (and pedantic tone); I thought it was an interesting explanation.

Subject: RE: theology question
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 12:28 PM

God in a closet must refer to the Biblical thought to go into one's private prayer closet.

LEJ, you made my day. You wacko.

I have been known to utter the following when someting divinely marvelous surpises me-- There IS a God! Of course I KNOW this all along, it just escapes from my neck that way when I rediscover His workings. Friends don't always know how to take that one-- it sounds like I had been doubting.

~S~

Subject: RE: theology question
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 12:53 PM

I like the "Harold" explanation. If Jesus were Russian, the "H" would be Haroldovich.

Liz - how much chocolate do you need? That story was priceless!

Oaths are an interesting thing. Why do Americans swear by their feces? It makes no sense to me.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: theology question
From: LR Mole
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:02 PM

Oh, Liz...I can't remember laughing this hard. And me a former thurifer,too. Number nine bus...! I just think it all has to do with sacred/profane (or mundane) juxtaposition, like, oh, Jesus' jock. Evening-off that considered sacred, which leaves the sanctity untouched. Incidentally, doesn't "short shrift" originally mean forgiveness of sin done in a rushed fashion, or inadequately?

Subject: RE: theology question
From: GUEST,Steve Beisser/Steadfast Ministries
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:22 PM

The "H" doesn't stand for anything, however, there are those of us who do not take the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in vain... Saying "Jesus H." and so on shows a lack of fundamental respect for people's beliefs who are followers of Jesus... If I were to injure a thumb while working on a Hindu temple construction site, I would be thrown out if not assaulted if I yelled, "F-ing Krishna bullsh** Shiva!" Therefore, I simply urge all of us, as an act of love and respect for the fact that you might not share my beliefs, to please not use such phrases... You would not stand to be insulted for your race or to have vulgarities spoken of your mother or friend... please don't speak ill of my Friend Jesus. Thank you all and God bless you.

Steve

Subject: RE: theology question
From: MMario
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:40 PM

Steve, believe me, I am *not* taking the Lord's name in vain when I use that expression. In fact, it is usually a devout prayer. Not a good prayer, but a deeply felt and devout petition of my God and my Saviour.

And the implication that none of the others participating in this thread are Christians is not very Christian in itself.

Subject: RE: theology question
From: Peter T.
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:47 PM

The crucial thing, of course, is that he must be American (like everything else important). The English rule used to be initials for everything but the last name - J.H. Christ. Presumably the middle initial was done in the usual afflatus mode (Jubiliation T. Cornpone; Rufus T. Firefly) -- though P.T. Barnum and W.C. Fields were odd exceptions, given their proclivities. Only Americans use Jr., so I assume He would also be God, Jr. or Joseph Jr., depending on your views.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: theology question
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 01:25 PM

MMario, now don't be picking on Steve, that ain't right either. For me-- guilty as charged. Christian through and through, and not yet nearly perfect. And some of the jokesters turn out to be the strongest prayer warriors I have ever met. *G*

Steve B. How to explain. OK. We Christian Mudcatters all seem to have our line we are not willing to cross or to have anyone cross in our presence. I have taken my turn at objecting. I was amazed to find that people did actually care, often, if they hurt me by aiming at my Friend. But ya know, He is tougher than we are, plus He sees things differently, and I think often He understands the remarks better than we do. After I express my umbrage, I usually smack myself on the forehead and exclaim, "Duh! I couldda prayed like a V8!" That's what I think Jesus does when we mess up-- intercede? I want to be more like THAT.

Before Jesus reclaimed me as an active follower, about 10 years ago, I spent a LOT of time working on various collected distresses. I found that the more hurt I could dump out in those sessions (see www.rc.org), the more space I had for my mind to work flexibly. Then when Jesus grabbed me back, that freed-up space and flexibility became space big enough and free enough to take in a whole lot more awareness of the Holy Spirit than had been possible before. (I believe Jesus had helped send me that healing process, although it is not a Christian one actually.) And now, whatever distress about spirituality I can unload, sometimes through laughter, leaves more of that space... to fill with.... guess what?

Sometimes, here at Mudcat, I see us doing that. Working our way, however clumsily and gracelessly, through the stuff that keeps is from seeing God, at all, or in each other. From this, and the friendships developed, some of the most extreme jokesters have even begun to approach some of the Big Questions.

So Steve, please get to know us. There is room here for you just as you are (sound familiar?). But we are here just as we are, too.

In Christ,

~Susan

Subject: RE: theology question
From: Grab
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 01:27 PM

I'd like to quote the Divine Terry Pratchett here:-

Besides, it's always useful to be able to blaspheme when you've just hit your thumb with a 9 pound hammer. It takes a very strong-minded sort of atheist to jump up and down and shout, "Aaargh, random fluctuations in the space-time continuum", or "Oh, ancient and outmoded concept on a crutch".

Another one I've heard is "Christ in a sidecar". Ideas anyone?

Grab.

Subject: RE: theology question
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 01:51 PM

I am reminded of a quote I heard, I'm not sure where, but it could have been in the Wittenburg Door:

One defends God as one defends a lion: you open the cage and step out of the way.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: theology question
From: Biskit
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 04:36 PM

Well put Praise Darlin'! I'd always thought it stood for hisself.How do you do that mouse thing mouse thief? that is SO cute. 0..0 >o< well pretty close but yours has more character.-Biskit-

Subject: RE: theology question
From: MMario
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 04:54 PM

Sorry Praise, and I apologize Steve. Bad week - (not here, in general) seems like when I haven't been being slammed for being Christian, I was being told I wasn't. thus I overreacted....

though I have always felt "jiminy cricket" and other euphamisms to be the height of hypocricy.

Subject: RE: theology question
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 05:00 PM

I've been doing the mouse thing for about 5 years now.
He's kinda like a li'l buddy that follows wherever I go.

I got the idea from a gal who did a cat face with ascii characters. I figured if she could do a cat, I could do a mouse. Worked on it a long time, till I got one I liked.

It's just the letter "O" both uppercase (ears) and lowercase (nose), periods (eyes) and equal signs (whiskers).

When I do it by hand, I add a body and tail (looks like the number "2" with a long tail), and little toenails.

As for expletives, I try to make up my own. "Mother of Pearl" is one I use a lot. Anything that starts with an "f" and has a "k" in it is satisfying in the mouth -- "frankencense" or "fracture" or "farking gardwobble".

Anybody can use George Carlin's 7 words. I try to be more imaginative.

O..O
=o=
clickme!

Subject: RE: theology question
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 05:39 PM

What do Jews/Muslims/Buddhists/Hindues say when they bang their thumb with a hammer too hard for "ouch" to be a satisfactory response?

Subject: RE: theology question
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 05:53 PM

McGrath-- AW CRAP!

~S~

Subject: RE: theology question
From: GUEST,Steve Beisser
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 10:07 PM

Guys, I wasn't assuming that ALL or ANYONE was or was not a Christian; I am simply stating that my Lord Jesus is so dear to me that it really hurts when people use His Name so carelessly. I wish for all people to come to know Him and always do my best to show the world His love. I simply am not able to stomach someone using those phrases about a Friend who is as real as one's brother (and sticks closer, too). PRAISE, I wrote down your email address and I will be in touch that way until such time as I am able to join Mudcat. May my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ bless you all with the power of His saving grace. :)

Subject: RE: theology question
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 11:14 PM

I think I mentioned once before that my father would say, half factiously.."Gotdandruffandsomeofititches".....

Subject: RE: theology question
From: GUEST,Guest still
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 12:29 AM

NOW, who know Jack S--t, and how did he get his name? And, is it a good thing? (Martha Stewart would want to know.)

Guest Still

Subject: RE: theology question
From: The Beanster
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 12:30 AM

Giac--I almost spit my iced tea out when I read your post. Hilarious!

I have an Irish friend (Tipperary) who constantly says "Christ on a bike!" which is similar to Liz the Squeak's. Hmmm. Maybe just the charm of the rhyme?

Steve, I'm sorry if you're offended. No offense is intended to you by any of us here, I'm sure. But you must also allow us to exchange ideas freely. I am not a Christian and may find how you speak offensive but that is your right and I would never attempt to silence you. I value this forum, the people here and our right to speak freely about any subject.

One more thing: My dad had a couple of really strange expressions when he was upset. One was "Holy Smokes!" or "Holy Smokin' Tobacco!" and the other sounded like "Geez Manodies!" I'm spelling that phonetically because I don't have a CLUE about that one. Anybody ever heard of these? Especially the last one? (He was from rural, coal-mining country in Pennsylvania.)

Subject: RE: theology question
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 01:38 AM

I prefer to use the name of the late movie critic Judith H. Crist. Now I'm afraid some Cristians (followers of Judith) will get on my case. All the best.
Seamus

Subject: RE: theology question
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 01:55 AM

I worked one summer with an interesting group of carpenters,an experience that led me to the profound belief that Jesus had to be a man with a sense of humor or he could never have cut it in that profession. Among the crew members was a Jew,a Muslim,a Buddhist,and several Christians.We were all conscious believers and inadvertant blasphemers.Among the epithets raised,in addition to the aforementioned "Jesus H Christ on a Crutch!!!",were such interesting word pictures as "Holy Moses Squatting in a Peach Orchard!!!","Great Babbling Bald-headed Buddha on a Stick!" and "Muff-snuffing Mohammed in a Mac Truck".

All makes me wonder what Jesus said when He cut a board too short (and you know he did).Makes me think He's got plenty of understanding and forgiveness of our own shortcomings.

LEJ

*Disclaimer- Some liberties have been taken in the telling of this well-intentioned parable

Subject: RE: theology question
From: GUEST,Alan of Oz
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 05:15 AM

G'day,
As one who dislikes hearing God's name used as an expletive I've often wondered how I'd feel if people started using my name in the same way. What if the owners of hammered thumbs started yelling "ALAN OF AUSTRALIA". I guess I'd be pretty pissed off too. It'd probably become "ALAN O. AUSTRALIA", but only in America. Here it'd be "ALANUVOZ".

Cheers,
Alan

Subject: RE: theology question
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 08:20 AM

I always believed it came from the so-called "H" bible originating from the early days of printing. The story (as far as I can remember) goes that the printer was unfairly treated by his employer and, in revenge, included an "H" between "Jesus" and "Christ" in one passage. The oath has remained to this day while the origins have largely been forgotten.

Peace

mcmoo

Subject: RE: theology question
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:19 AM

Cheese and crackers! Godfrey Daniels! Sacred Feces! (...and speaking of swearing, not just venting, what do you think "testifying" is all about?) Better to open the peintbox than leave it closed, no matter what picture's made, say I.

Subject: RE: theology question
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:19 AM

Cheese and crackers! Godfrey Daniels! Sacred Feces! (...and speaking of swearing, not just venting, what do you think "testifying" is all about?) Better to open the paintbox than leave it closed, no matter what picture's made, say I.

Subject: RE: theology question
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 05:17 PM

My query about Muslims and Jews was an attempt to tease out whether using a holy name when you are swearing is specifically Christian, or more widespread.

Given the God who gets the most public worship these days, maybe we should start swearing by coins and currencies. Well, I suppose we do in a small way - "I don't give a brass farthing". Some currencies give themselves to it - the Russian, with Rouble and Kopek; and there's the Irish unit of exchange of course. But crying out "Almighty Dollar" when you bang your finger - no it wouldn't feel the same. Though there are contexts where saying "it's only money after all" will count as some kind of blasphemy.

I've just done an experiment, because there's a leak in my low attic roof that needed fixing. And I found I tend to say Sh-t Now". (And that dash is because there are hypersensitive guardian programs that don't like words like that, and I wouldn't want to screw up anyone's computer. Oops, I probably just did just that...)

(And Alan of Oz - I swear I heard someone saying "Alan damn nation" the other day, which is clearly a variant on your cookie.)

Subject: RE: theology question
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 05:32 PM

When my priest stops using those words, so will I.....

I know pagans who shout 'Hecate on a pogo stick', or 'Diana's tits' when provoked. It's the same thing really......

LTS

Subject: RE: theology question
From: MMario
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 05:33 PM

and I know I have heard more then a few "Goddess damn you!" 's....(though from what I have heard that is really a strange contridiction....)

Subject: RE: theology question
From: Bert
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 06:02 PM

My old Grandma would say "For Rice Cake!!!"

Subject: RE: theology question
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 11:55 PM

...in spite of the fact that mudcatters have once again done a fine job of making light of a sensitive topic and kept from skewering each other in the process, I find this kind of "windup" deeply offensive and I want Ben and Eileen to go to hell!
Although, as a rule I am committed to the idea that religious beliefs are deeply personal and should be kept private, I think Praise has made the most coherent points in this thread....guess who

Subject: RE: theology question
From: Parson
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 12:20 AM

In response to Beanster, I have heard both of the expressions you mention. In regards to your Dad's "Geez Menoidies" (or however you spelled it) I think it is a variation of Jeminy Cricket. How about the phonetic spelling Jim-mon-et-ies? At least that's how it is pronounced in the South. It's just a little flourish on Jem-i-nee as in Jeminy Cricket.

Randall

Subject: RE: theology question
From: Mbo
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 12:25 AM

My Dad says "yiminy cricket."

Subject: RE: theology question
From: The Beanster
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 02:01 AM

Randall (Parson)--

Thank you SO much for offering that explanation. That could be it. All my life, I've wondered what in the world he had been saying all those years but what you say makes a lot of sense. My sister and I once thought maybe it was more of a "Geez, My Nodies" type of expression although we couldn't figure out what "nodies" were! -- and were afraid to speculate! hahaha Your theory, though, is probably correct. Again, thanks!

Subject: RE: theology question
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 02:21 PM

Actually, thinking it over I suspect that when people say "Jesus H Christ" they are suggesting that they aren't being irreverant, because they are actually using the name of a fella in Cincinatti who sells double-glazing or something like that.