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Why is this place so bitter?
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: Grab Date: 24 Jan 02 - 11:39 AM Hey Devilmaster. Yeah, I'm over again, but probably only for a week - flying in Sunday and out Friday. I may get over to Windsor but I doubt it - it's a bit far for a midweek evening, when I've got to be in work at Ford for 8am! Might check out some blues/folk clubs in downtown Detroit, but I probably won't cross the river. Of course, that's depending on the work. If it turns out that there's more work needed, then I'll be there longer and I can meet up with you guys on Friday/Saturday. Unfortunately the steel guitar is waiting for me to perform surgery on it, so I'll only have my normal acoustic with me. Graham.
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: DougR Date: 24 Jan 02 - 11:57 AM Or, the glass is either half empty or half full. Whatever you make of it. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: wysiwyg Date: 24 Jan 02 - 11:58 AM Kendall, Hardi and I both loved that-- it may get into a sermon in fact. Hardi often recommends (as an experiment) that people spend a week smiling at everyone no matter what, and then a week scowling at everyone-- and see what they get back in return. And then there is my Mudcat name-- What You (choose to) (can) (prefer to) See Is What You "Get." ~S~
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 24 Jan 02 - 11:58 AM The old Double Whammy. When a person insults someone, not only are they hurt, but it's their fault, because they were hurt. Go figure. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: kendall Date: 24 Jan 02 - 12:19 PM Ted, I dont see that as a joke. To me it is a piece of homely wisdom which I picked up back in the stone age. Even if it were a joke, does that make it less valuable? Dani, where I come from, we have piazzas and verandas as well as porches. However, when Pizza was invented, we had to start calling piazzas porches because it got too confusing. |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: Murray MacLeod Date: 24 Jan 02 - 12:38 PM kendall, I too enjoyed your piece of homespun wisdom. In my capacity as insufferable nit-picker, however, I feel compelled to suggest that you change the build-up to the old-timer being next door to a house with a "For Sale" sign, and delivering his pithy observations to prospective buyers. A much more realistic scenario, if you think about it, than actual neighbors coming up to him and making enquiries. Murray
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Subject: Flaming From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Jan 02 - 02:19 PM I've received a couple of personal messages this week, asking how can I allow such-and-such a nasty thread to be posted. Well, we do have a solid rule that we do not allow personal attack threads and messages. Pene Azul and I do our best to delete such messages when we see them - but we don't have the time or patience to review every message. We'd rather spend our time doing other things, and rightly so. If you see something you think should be looked at, send a personal message to BOTH Pene and me, and we'll see what we can do. Please do not post public messages to request this sort of review - it just serves to encourage flamers by calling attention to them. We try our best to keep the discussion free and uncensored, but I don't think that requires us to accept all forms of viciousness. It's a difficult balance to maintain, and Jeff (Pene) and I talk back and forth about it all the time. In the process, we've become good friends, which is quite delightful. Remember, though, that we do not intend to censor this place into some sort of wholesome Disneyland. If you post messages here, you do take a risk. I suggest that you minimize that risk by not posting information about yourself that is too personal. We do our best to keep things pleasant around here, but we can't guarantee anybody complete protection against nastiness. If you watch what happens around here, you'll see that certain types of people are the ones who get flamed (attacked, usually by anonymous guests). Oftentimes, the people who get flamed do certain obnoxious things that attract flame attacks. If you get flamed frequently, then maybe you should look at yourself and see if there's something you do that attracts such attacks. I'm not saying that flaming is ever justified, but I do think it's true that certain conduct is annoying to everybody and especially attractive to flamers. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: SDShad Date: 24 Jan 02 - 02:28 PM Kendall, you were around when pizza was invented? I mean, I knew you were older than me, but.... :-) Shad |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: kendall Date: 24 Jan 02 - 02:52 PM Hell, I was around when PORCHES were invented! When I went to school, I didn't have to study history, there wasn't any. |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: Willa Date: 24 Jan 02 - 03:10 PM Well said, John, and I think the concern shown when people noticed you were 'missing' for a while shows that, as Ebbie says, mudcat is like a large argumentative family until one of its members needs some tlc. |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 24 Jan 02 - 03:44 PM Thanks Willa, I was really suprised a couple of weeks ago to get a phone call of Les checking that I was ok, because I hadn't posted anything for a while.There is definetley some good friendly people here.john |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Jan 02 - 07:33 PM Half full or half empty, it still holds enough good stuff. Good bitter sometimes. |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 24 Jan 02 - 08:49 PM It is a reflecting pool. We see ourselves. Members such as KL, S, and WW find painful experiences and seek healing. Guests, like myself, find a playground of frivolous antics where scholarship once reigned. In your case, Stephen Crane expressed it well.
In the desert
Sincerely,
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 24 Jan 02 - 08:53 PM And Mr. Crane again,
Once there was a man -- |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: Nerd Date: 25 Jan 02 - 02:14 AM I've only been here a short while, but I don't really find the place all that bitter. I come from pretty abrasive towns, (NYC originally, and now Philadelphia) and this seems pretty sweet by comparison. Here are some ways I avoid getting stressed here. I don't invest a huge amount of ego in my statements on the 'cat, so if someone flames me, or ignores me, or whatever, I just go my merry way. If people seem nice I am nice to them, if people are injured I post to get well threads and if people have birthdays or other joys I congratulate them. I never write in just to say "shut up, you eejit" even though it is sometimes tempting. If people seem to be sparring I assume it is good-natured witty banter among friends, and that I just don't know them well enough to get it yet. And if people seem downright mean or unbalanced, I just don't get involved. On music threads, I answer questions if I think I know a helpful answer. If people are wrong and I know it I correct them--but only if I think they will appreciate it. If they seem to have too much invested in their infallibility or their rightness, life's too short to argue with them. Remember, there are people like that everywhere! Also, occasionally I try my hand at the song challenges because they're fun, but someone else always writes funnier songs than I do (sigh!) I suppose there's some bitterness in any worthwhile life experience, but I would never say my overall impression of the 'cat has been negative. You just have to be amused by it all; that's the key. If (for example) bob said some weird things (and he did) at least some of them were helpful, and some were hilarious. I'm glad he cruised in here and livened things up, and I'd welcome him back. And if there's a sort of central clique or two that define the place to a certain degree, that's kind of inevitable in this sort of community. But it's not an exclusionary, high-school sort of environment. In fact, it's fun to observe longtime members and their interactions, 'cause they're generally smart and funny. Remember, in the real world I have to deal with people who despise folk music; now that's a bitter pill! Anyway, this is probably my longest post EVER, just to say the 'cat is really pretty cool. Stick around and enjoy it! |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: Mark Cohen Date: 25 Jan 02 - 02:43 AM Hey, this boy's pretty smart, you can tell he's from Philadelphia. Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: catspaw49 Date: 25 Jan 02 - 08:09 AM Okay Mark.......So how do we explain you? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: GUEST,outcast Date: 25 Jan 02 - 10:46 AM it seems to me that jj has a legit complaint. i used to be a member here. i went after too many spoilers on my threads. some were vicious, vitriolic. this used to be a great place, it's changed over time. that is not perception - i know it. those who tell jj that *he's* the problem because he sees what is there are just avoiding the issue. i expect nothing else nowadays. i only visited here to keep in vague touch. this is what i found. ho hum. |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: Blackcatter Date: 25 Jan 02 - 11:25 AM Mark, are you saying Nerd wasn't smart until he moved to Philadelphia? |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 25 Jan 02 - 11:27 AM Dear Self-chosen Outcast: Welcome to reality. Of course, there are people who let fly with pretty nasty stuff ocassionally. I don't think anyone is denying that. Or saying that it's right. I too get irritated with people who seem to say without thinking, anything that comes to mind if they think it clever and then claim the person that they've offended is too over-sensitive. Not a great depth of self-examination going on there. But, your observation is the same that people make about churches. There are hypocrites there, back-biters, egotistical, obnoxious people. As my sons would say, "No duh!" The only way that you can avoid exposure to people who are offensive is to stay in the house. I thought that Nerd's comments were right on the mark. Take the good that you can find here, and there is MUCH good. Don't let the occasional mean-spirited stuff get you down. Usually, when someone says something out of line, several other Catters jump in to the defense. If you see a thread that looks like it's getting tied in knots (or nots), don't go there. I've just been coming here a couple of months, and I see many good people.. including some that fling insults back and forth at each other, good-naturedly. It's a good place to come. It bears a strong resemblance to reality. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: Don Firth Date: 25 Jan 02 - 11:36 AM There's something for just about everyone on Mudcat. I think that whether you find this place bitter or sweet depends on which threads you devote your time, energy, and emotional involvement to. But then, I think Kendall said that already. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 02 - 11:38 AM Guest outcast--to see a good example of the conversation being hijacked by the illustrious regulars, have a look see at the "History of Irish Music" thread. This post will be the 8th post to this thread using the GUEST log-in, and most of the guest log-ins to this thread are from regulars w/o cookies, or regular guests. Out of about 85 posts total. Sorta says it all, doesn't it? I always doubt that it is authentic newcomer guests who start these threads. More likely it is the regulars using the anonymity of the guest log-in, who need their fix. That Mudcat regular fix being another opportunity to talk about themselves, amongst themselves, rather than about music or anything else meaningful. It is like an adolescent boys circle jerk or pissing contest sorta thing. |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: Paul from Hull Date: 25 Jan 02 - 11:52 AM Whether you find this place bitter or sweet depends on whether your life is bitter or sweet. I pity the people/person for whom life is so bitter that they want to sour this place too. |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: DougR Date: 25 Jan 02 - 12:57 PM Nerd: Bravo! DougR |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: Ebbie Date: 25 Jan 02 - 01:15 PM Guest, Guest, Guest, Guest or Guest, (it's SO hard to tell you apart; sorry), I think you are saying that Mudcat members are going to the trouble of logging off and coming back in as guests in order to be truthful. Takes lots of courage to do that, right? Why are you so afraid? I do come from a large, argumentative family- one that never was honest in controversial matters. Only in recent years have we worked at saying what we actually think. And guess what? The unit hasn't fallen apart. Ebbie Elva |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: M.Ted Date: 25 Jan 02 - 01:26 PM There are some that say that people aren't smart til they move out of Philadephia--- |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 02 - 01:33 PM Ebbie Elva, methinks thou dost presume much too much about the meaning of the word anonymous. Here is a dictionary definition (from my Funk & Wagnall's Standard Desk Dictionary): a.non.y.mous adj. 1. Having or bearing no name. 2. Of unknown authorship or agency. [< Gk. < an-without + onoma name] See? Nothing about courage or cowardice a'tall. When the word "cowardice" is used by some as a synonym for the word "anonymous" that problem is one of cultural assumptions. Here on Mudcat, those presumptious assumptions have become so insidious, that Mudcat regulars regularly use the "anonymous is snynomous with cowardice" cultural assumption to attack people they feel to be at a complete loss to score points against in an argument. I'm argumentative too. Thing is, I learned a thing or two from arguing all these years. Apparently, you haven't if the best thing you can come up with to get my goat is a sophmoric machismo challenge about cowardice. I post anonymously--in the sense given by the above dictionary definition--because I like posting this way. I have nothing to hide. I have no hidden agenda. I have no desire to enjoy the benefits of membership, as my on-line life is quite complete without it. I just enjoy posting here as a person without a name. Why that is so hard for some of you to comprehend is beyond me, but that makes it your problem, not mine. |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: DougR Date: 25 Jan 02 - 04:07 PM Perhaps, Ebbie, lack of conviction might be a more appropriate description. If someone truly believes whatever they post, and has any interest at all in influencing opinion, I think there would be no hesitancy at all to use a name. I doubt anyone here attaches much credence to posts written by "anonymous" for that reason. Personally, I equate anonymous posters with "window-peepers." DougR |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Jan 02 - 04:20 PM More like a flasher I'd say. Or maybe a mooner.
"Window peeper" - do you say that instead of "Peeping Tom" in the States? |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: DougR Date: 25 Jan 02 - 04:50 PM Same think, McGrath. Flasher or Mooner would do just as well though. |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: MMario Date: 25 Jan 02 - 04:52 PM Some of our anonymous guests put me more in mind of a "stalker" |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: DougR Date: 25 Jan 02 - 04:57 PM True, MMario, true. |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: John MacKenzie Date: 26 Jan 02 - 04:36 AM "Life is like a shit sandwich. The more bread you have, the less shit you have to eat" What that says to me is life is never going to be as you want it to be. You know the old saying, into each life a little rain must fall. For god guys read bread, and for most guests the other ingredient of the sandwich. I always wanted to drive a porch, but not a piazza. Engage brain before operating mouth/keyboard Failte.....Giok |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Jan 02 - 05:40 AM I know Window Peeper and Peeping Tom mean the same, Doug - I was just curious to know if Americans tend to use that expression, because we don't over here. That's the kind of thing you learn on the Mudcat and nowhere else.
Flasher, mooner - maybe streaker. They all have different meanings I suppose. |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Jan 02 - 07:07 AM Flasher shows front. Mooner shows back. Streaker show all. Streaking was more of a fad, a way to inject some disruption in an event and generally for no particular reason. Flashing, whether male or female, has a sexual connotation to it as the flasher is usually getting his or her jollies somehow. More often associated with men exposing themselves to unsuspecting women, it can go either way. Mooning though is most often done as a sign of disrespect, although it can be a humorful disrespect just as telling someone to kiss your ass may either be a friendly joke or fightin' words. Mooning is a bit of the art form as well and has a lexicon of phrases associated with it's performance, such as "Pressed Ham" where the mooner sticks his/her ass against a glass window, generally in a car. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: wysiwyg Date: 26 Jan 02 - 09:01 AM Expert. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: GUEST,Former member Date: 26 Jan 02 - 09:15 AM Guest JJ, By now you've probably sussed out why this is such a bitter place. It is the guest thing. Way back in the mists of Mudcat time, Max created a two tiered hierarchy for posters, in order to "protect" the assumed name indentities of some regular posters here. Needless to say, it is obvious that members are way on top on the top hierarchical rung, and guests, anon or otherwise, are just below pond scum, regardless of their good intentions when they come in here. One Really Big Lie posted in this thread I would take exception to is the idea that 9/11 is making the rude, bitter Mudcat members do it. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Mudcat Royals ran out one of the most knowledgeable people about British folk music in the spring of 2001, and the summer of 2001 was some of the worst flame wars I've seen in a decade on Usenet. So, you seemed to have gotten it right in your initial post here. The all too predictable rude and nasty response to your post was swift and immediate, as it most always is. My solution is to never limit myself to reading this forum about folk music. It is much too cliqueish, and there are much more knowledgeable people about folk music in the Usenet forums. When the flaming gets bad, I just check out, and come back later. |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: WyoWoman Date: 26 Jan 02 - 10:52 AM Actually, I like Neil Young. We sing everything in exactly the same key. If you see this place as bitter, my request is that you change lenses. You may need one that lets in more light. And welcome. It may be humble, but it's home. WW |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: gnu Date: 26 Jan 02 - 11:46 AM I AM NOT BITTER DAMNIT !!!! |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: DougR Date: 26 Jan 02 - 01:04 PM Spaw: I, for one, am most grateful for that heartfelt and and most eloquent explanation of those words. I think I will print it off and place it on my bulletin board so that if the subject ever comes up again, I'll have a handy response. I shall of course always credit you as the author. McGrath: I don't know which term is most prevelent in use in America. It so rarely comes up in conversation. *G* DougR |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: Alice Date: 26 Jan 02 - 01:19 PM kendall, the first time I heard that bit about the guy on the porch and new people coming to town, it was back in about 1980, after my parents had been killed and I married a guy I didn't know very well. Yikes. He was an alcoholic and a drug addict. I had no clue about addiction. I didn't know what I was getting into, but shortly got out of it, although not unscathed. I had never met anyone who had such a negative reaction to everything in life, and someone told me that story to explain how I saw things positively and he would look at the same thing and see it negatively... not only that, he had moved from a nearby town that he reviled to the town where I live, so the story literally fit the situation.
Mudcat reflects the way people interact in general. For an internet site, I have found it to be much more polite than most internet forums. Alice |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: John MacKenzie Date: 26 Jan 02 - 01:55 PM I suspect that some former members may be feeling a little paranoid. |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: Blackcatter Date: 26 Jan 02 - 02:13 PM Hey, Former Member: Whine, whine, whine. Do you seriously believe that there is a two-tiered system around here? Do you think anyone cares about that? If theree was a two-tiered system, wouldn't it be a bit more difficult to become a member? People who are guests are more likely to be trolling. That's a simple fact. Those remarks from guests that are NOT insulting, degrading, stupid, or insensitive are treated like any comments made be those who've decided to register a name here. If you make a comment that helps someone or is funny, nobody cares if you're a guest or Max himself. The real difference is that comments made by "members" that are insulting, degrading, stupid, or insensitive are usually accepted as unusual behavior and chocked up to a bad day. Generally that's all it is, because the regulars have posted here hundreds of times have a track record of being ok people. Email/discussions are a less than perfect way to communicate, especially on sensitive issues. So it is easy to be misunderstoon and to misunderstand other peoples comments. My sugggestion is that if you are easily offended, stay away from ANY discussion groups that allow people to go off-topic - that way, you're likely to be able to deal with it better. pax yall
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: wysiwyg Date: 26 Jan 02 - 02:43 PM A "flamewar" and other related "wrongs" were referenced and described above by an anonymous guest. A number of people with a different "take" on all of those events decided, at the time and since, not to post about it, but to move on. So I hope people will keep in mind that a one-sided story is just that-- one-sided, and a story. It does nothing to change what people are responsible for around here-- themselves, named or not. Life is like that. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: GUEST,Paybacks are a B**** Date: 26 Jan 02 - 02:43 PM Hey Guest, Former member and other Guests who flame and troll. I just thought I'd try what you guys so often do. I am a regular member, happy to be one, but since posting anon is soooooo cool, I'd thought I would try it too. Ya know, you guests who just bitch should get a life. Your little pissant speeches, with all your whining, and moaning about how unfair mudcat is and yada, yada, yada, don't mean Jack to the people who enjoy it here. You won't convince people to leave, nor will your smartass comments change the system to the way YOU want it. You guys just exploit a nicety that Max offers, which is offering posts without membership. I suppose you need to find someone to blame for your pathetic life, and since finding proper fault would force you to look in the mirror, (and realize you haven't washed in months) you go on the internet and blame everyone else for your useless, pathetic, no friends life. This theory of the 'inner clique' is SOOOOOOO f****** stupid. Cause if it were true, wouldn't the 'inner clique' stop guest postings?!?!?!?!?!? Makes sense to me. But then I have intelligence...... and a life. So what are you left with. A sad little existence, and mudcat offers a chance for human interaction, something you sad little people are noticeably lacking. So get off the chair, get out of your mom's basement, open a door, and get your extremely pale (yet glowing from monitor radiation) some sun. I'll leave you with a line from Donald Sutherland in 'Kelly's Heroes'......... "Negative Waves Moriarity! Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves?!? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?" some people's children |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: John MacKenzie Date: 26 Jan 02 - 03:26 PM Some of you may remember "Spy vs Spy", it's getting a bit like that here. Only it's turned into "Guest vs Guest"Possibly I'm speaking out of turn here, being a relative newbie, but it begins to look like the flamers & trollers are getting to us, and that means that they've achieeved their objective of winding us up. |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: John MacKenzie Date: 26 Jan 02 - 03:29 PM Sorry, don't know what happened there, apologies all round The last line should read. IGNORE THE SAD SOBs. Giok |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: kendall Date: 26 Jan 02 - 03:41 PM How can I find out if I'm in the inner clique? |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: Devilmaster Date: 26 Jan 02 - 03:53 PM perhaps we should have a blue clicky to a 'inner clique' list....... Does it require a resume to join? steve |
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Subject: RE: Why is this place so bitter? From: marty D Date: 26 Jan 02 - 04:03 PM Hi Guest jj. Granted there's more stupidity here than when I first stumbled upon Mudcat almost three years ago, but it really is contained in such a small percentage of threads. The fact that almost any controversial point of view now has to be stated anonymously merely reflects on how close the community has become. People don't want to 'rock the boat', but they still want others to know that dissenting views are out there. Easy to do on the net, much harder and more time consuming in real life. Yeah, occasionally I've seen a lack of tolerance that probably has hurt a few people, but in almost every case if you look a little deeper you can see quite a bit of provocation coming from the flamees. It's simply easier to react at someone blowing up rather than looking to see if they had some justification. That takes a lot more time. Besides, a lot of flaming sure seems alcohol fueled to me, and from personal experience I know how the tongue gets loosened. But the place isn't bitter, it's still a lot more cheerful and helpful than anywhere else on the net. marty |
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