Pubs in decline

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: IanC
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 05:06 AM

Wolfgang

It's an interesting part of the law in England and Wales that a pub landlord can exclude anyone from a pub without even needing to give any reason at all. Though it's called a "Public House" it's actually a private house where the landlord allows people in at his discretion. Our private schools are also called "Public Schools" by the way ... it's the English way of confusing "foreigners" I think!

;-)

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 05:33 AM

Thanks, Ian. I understand that even an outright racist sign or a 'men only' sign would be allowed then. I'm sure some laws in my country will seem puzzling to people in other countries as well.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: IanC
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 05:52 AM

Well, Wolfgang, it would be OK to exclude people on racist grounds (so long as you don't say so) but there are specific laws against racial discrimination so that overt displays like signs would be illegal. Sexism is frowned upon enough that there are no longer Mens Bars anywhere really (30 yeas ago they wer quite common in the North of England). Publicans would be frightened of losing their licenses.

Ageism isn't actually illegal, though, and not really very frowned upon either. After all, under 18s aren't allowed to buy drink and under 14s aren't allowed in.

:-)

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: JudeL
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 06:01 AM

Landlords can display limitations on those entering the pub provided they do not break other laws such as those which prohibit discrimination on the grounds of race or sex. Thus a landlord may have a dress code that excludes anyone wearing jeans and trainers but is not allowed to post a sign saying e.g. no Irish.

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 06:59 AM

[Let's make it 'No Roman Catholics' then (grin).]

Sorry, I didn't intend to start a new line of discussion with off topic posts, for the discussion you had was and is still very interesting to me.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: IanC
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 07:13 AM

Wolfgang

Religious discrimination is also illegal under the discrimination laws (perhaps we should get back to pubs).

:-)

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 08:26 AM

"No travellers" were quite common at one time, but I haven't seen them recently round our way. There were arguments as to whether it got round discrimination by saying "travellers" instead of gypsies, which is what it meant - because there are non-gypsy new agre travellers as well.

A notice up saying not under 25s might not be legal, or it might be. There's a lot to be said for raising the age of drinking to 25 anyway. And maybe 30 for driving...

Lower age limits are on odd kind of discrimination, because it is time limited - you move from one category to the other in the course of your life, which doesn't happen with racism and sexism etc.

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: HuwG
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 08:53 AM

One or two of the pubs in Attercliffe and Brightside in Sheffield, which practically backed onto steelworks, had prominent notices which said, "No working clothes". The idea was to keep out some of the furnace charge-wheelers and so on, whose overalls would shower a cascade of rust, filings, turnings, clinker, soot and so forth, wherever they walked or sat.

Needless to say, the accountants were told that they could not come in unless they removed their ties and pinstripes.

This situation was unlikely to arise; if I remember, there was a crowded pub, the "Duke of Wellington" at the back of Forgemasters, which did a roaring trade with thirsty foundry floor workers. The carpets were about 50% cigarette burn marks, and sometimes you did need a hard hat to be safe while ordering a drink. Then there was a more genteel establishment, the "Carbury Hall" out the front, which had oak panelling, waitress service and all the trimmings, for the gaffers. I was once treated to dinner there after I bodged some of Forgemasters' scrap inventory software; I felt very out of place.


The "No Trainers" rule more often applies to nightclubs than pubs.


Pubs can say, "No dogs"; this is not a reference to less-than-attractive ladies. (Badly controlled dogs can be a nuisance). However, the words "No pets" on advertisements for property to rent or let, are usually a thinly disguised code for, "No coloureds"


As IanC says, a landlord can bar anybody, without needing to give any reason. Paul Merton once became involved in an argument with an elderly bigot of a landlord who objected to his style of humour on the TV. The landlord told him, "You're barred, for life". Paul Merton replied, "Whose lifetime ? Yours or mine ?"

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 12:10 PM

[snip] the "Carbury Hall" out the front, which had oak panelling, [/snip]

I wonder if you mean the "Carbrooke Hall". An interesting boozer even now because the inside is in fact 17th century and the oak panelling referred to is in fact genuine and dates from that time as does one of the fireplaces within the place.

If it were in the Cotswolds it would be a real treasure and people would travel miles to see it. Since it is in (what was) the steelworks end of Sheffield few people bother. If you are travelling up the M1 and this sort of thing interests you then it is not far off the Meadowhell turn off. (Spelling deliberate)

Which reminds me that when I was a rep for a food company many years ago the landlord of the Plumpers - right next to the M1 - told me he wasn't bothered about doing food - he had no passing trade.

In fact.........I wonder how much the decline in pubs is due to the idiots in charge of some of them. I remember ringing up one pub to ask if it was OK to bring a couple of Morris teams up to dance in the car park........

"I don't know" said the landlady, "they'll be wanting drinks and things and I'll have to put on extra staff - then there'll be all them extra glasses to wash............." I did say as I put the phone down I was trying very hard to put some money in her till........put we would do it elsewhere....

Dave

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: HuwG
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 12:50 PM

Folkiedave, I did indeed mean the "Carbrooke Hall". It's a shame what time and abuse does to one's memory.

I lived in Tinsley (before MeadowHole was built), and remember the "Plumpers" well; it used to have some nice music twenty years ago. Mostly fifties and sixties covers bands, but one nice bunch of C-and-W'ers, the "Pete Jones Outfit". I recall driving past it not long ago, and the pub appeared to have been replaced by a golfing accessories shop; say it ain't so.

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 02:28 PM

No problem. I can easily check since my daughter goes past every day. Although I live in Sheffield it is only rarely that I go around there - preferring to keep away from Meadowhell and all its works.

I'll ask though....(as a memory of the Plumpers it used to be the training pub for Stones (RIP) and they had a glass bottomed beer barrel with a light shining through to show how easy it was to stir up the shit in the bottom of a barrel).

I saw landlordism in a new light........so to speak.

Dave

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 02:39 PM

I checked.....hold you seat.........what was the Plumpers is indeed a golf accessory shop!

Pubs in decline?................cities in decline more like.

Dave

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: HuwG
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 08:41 AM

Woe, woe, and thrice woe !


Yes, indeed, it's more than a shame that such a lively pub is no more. Tinsley boasts, or boasted, only two other pubs; and neither was anything to boast about, if you get my meaning. (The "Fox and Duck" was a large and rather delapidated building, the "Pike and Heron" was plastic and fizzy-pop).

It may or may not be a sign of the times, but the last time I drove past Tinsley, the newest and best-kept building was the Mosque.




I have happy memories of Tinsley, mainly associated with a girlfriend there. On days when the Pete Jones Outfit played at the "Florence Nightingale" in Rotherham, we used to take the bus to Rotherham Centre and walk the rest of the way, up more than a mile of very long and steep hill. How's that for dedication ? Of course, we were young, fit and very poor then.


I also recall jam sessions and other events in the "Travellers' Rest", not far from Rotherham town centre. I doubt if that place is still there; they seemed to be tearing down the entire area before I left.

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Frankham
Date: 05 Mar 03 - 05:50 PM

I can't but see this as a positive thing in a way. When we visited Ireland, we really love the music and wanted to hear it but most of what was accessible to us at the time was in pubs. We apparently couldn't get to the Fleadhs but we did fortunately come upon a dance for the "old folks" with a great Irish band.

We would love to visit Ireland again. We met such wonderful people and they were very kind to us. We dropped in on the Comhaltas in Monkstown and enjoyed every bit of it. We took in the Siamsa in Tralee and loved it. Our main regret is that most of the music was in the pubs. We feel the same way Fran does. We felt that we couldn't go into them.

I used to play in smoky bars. It wrecked havoc on my lungs and I never smoked. I love jazz and in the fifties and early sixties, that's where you had to go to hear or play it.

I realize that the pub has the same nostalgic meaning for many as the American jazz club and understand the feelings that the people who frequent them must have about their disappearance but I think that it's time to adapt to a new healthy environment, now, and let the music be accessible to all and not limited to those who smoke. Alcohol consumption is a matter of personal choice as long as it's under control by the user. That doesn't affect my lungs.

I think there might be a non-smoking and/or maybe a non-alcoholic pub that could do good business in the British Isles and if they were playing good music I know that on holiday, we would be there supporting it.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Jun 24 - 03:42 PM

This seems the most suitable thread for the following.

From The Morning Advertiser

Pub closures in England & Wales up 51% for first 3 months of 2024

Not great news.

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 22 Jun 24 - 02:32 PM

I just bought a pack of 10 ten 500ML cans of Greene King IPA from ASDA for £8.
Not the most inspired beer in the oorld but OK for what it is- 3.4pc alcohol.
Why would I go to a noisy pop music riddled modern 'superpub' with a giant scren for ghastly modern football where I wouldn't get TWO pints for that money?
I can have peace & quiet & MY choice of music/film/radio/reading - it's a no-brainer.
I can understand it if your local pub is the Pilot in Berwick or the Red Lion on Romney Marsh but few of us are so lucky

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jun 24 - 09:21 PM

smoking has now been banned in pubs but they are still closing i am lucky i have six pubs to choose from ,
going to a pub is about proper socialising which involves talking to people face to face and not having to put up with abuse from internet trolls
for me going to a pub is about talking to others which unlike the internet does involve body language.

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Acorn4
Date: 24 Jun 24 - 04:05 AM

Last Closing Time

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 24 - 04:11 AM

In 1970 the UK had 75000 pubs. In March 2024 there were 39000.

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: RTim
Date: 24 Jun 24 - 09:47 AM

The irony of Pubs closing is - There are More Breweries now in the UK than at any time in the past....

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: RTim
Date: 24 Jun 24 - 09:51 AM

Here are some facts - Over the period in consideration the number of breweries in the United Kingdom (UK) increased from 1,489 in 2018 to 2,426 in 2022.Oct 18, 2023

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: Rain Dog
Date: 25 Jun 24 - 04:15 AM

Patriot posted 'Why would I go to a noisy pop music riddled modern 'superpub' with a giant scren for ghastly modern football where I wouldn't get TWO pints for that money?'

Well not all pubs are like that. Cost is one reasons why fewer are going to pubs, along with a change in drinking habits. For what ever reason, I get the impression that fewer young people are going to pubs now compared to 40 or 50 years ago. I have no idea why.

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: GUEST,patriot
Date: 29 Jun 24 - 04:35 PM

problem is that too many pubs are pretty close to my earlier description- the real English pub is an amazing environment- why are we throwing it all away?

Subject: RE: Pubs in decline
From: GUEST,reluctant drinker
Date: 01 Jul 24 - 10:06 AM

the first pint I bought back in 1978 cost me 28p, the last pint I bought which was yesterday, 30th June 2024 cost me £5!!!!! what percentage rise is that? what other product has endured a similar price hike?