BS: Culture of Offendedness

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 10:46 AM

"...chimps also bare their teeth when they are frightened, uncertain, or uncomfortable" And so do we - and, as has been pointed out in this thread, it is when we are frightened, uncertain or uncomfortable that we are liable to get violent. But sometimes we can use humour and laughter to help pull us through.

It's maybe a shame that our closest relatives are chimps, rather than orang-utans or gorillas, who seem to have less volatile temperaments, from what I've heard.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Troll
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 10:56 AM

I think that we have evolved (DEvolved?) a society where no is ever to blame, where everything that happens is always someone elses fault, and where everyone seems to think that THEY DESERVE to be happy and BY G-D! someone had better get their ASS in GEAR and make it HAPPEN.
And, of course, if it can be explained, it can be excused.
"Your Honor, my client may have chopped three of his co-workers up into hamburger meat but he was abused as a child. His Mother ignored him at times to care for her other six children and his Father yelled at him several times during his traumatic childhood. He was brooding on this when one of his co-workers told him to wake up and start 'doing his share' and something just 'snapped'. We request that all charges be dropped and that he be given a medical retirement from Burger Doodle with full benefits. It is obvious that he was not responsible for what he did."
And no one ever mentions the hundred thousand people who had childhoods just as bad ,or worse, than our young miscreant -excuse me, alleged miscreant- and lead productive, law abiding lives.
But to explain it is to excuse it. Everyone is a victim and so everyone is perpetually offended.
I recall a cartoon from many years ago in Playboy.( I only read it for the cartoons, Honest!)
This Lounge Lizzard type is sitting in a lawyers office and he says,"So I'm invited to this party. The Drinks were bar booze, the food was mediocre and the conversation forgettable. Now, do I have gounds for a lawsuit or don't I."

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 11:18 AM

Anybody else see the inherent irony in this thread?
No, I didn't start it to be ironic, I was serious. But upon further thought, "I am SO pissed off at all these people that are angry all the time" is pretty funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 11:30 AM

LOL.....nah Jeri, yain't alone............

I also keep thinking of that Steve Martin line in Roxanne where he says, "Oh irony? No, we don't have that here. People here ski topless while smoking dope so irony isn't too big. The last time anyone used irony here was 1982 when I was the only practitioner of it and I stopped because everyone just stared at me."

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 11:31 AM

All right Jeri (or anyone else) I have a question for you.

Suppose you like to use irony and humour in your everyday speech? It's just a style......perhaps even a defence against the overwhelming 'dumbing-down' of everything around you.

Now in public, this works.....probably around seventy percent of the time. You know....that kind of 'supermarket banter' that can get a smile out of people who no longer feel their jobs (hence their lives) count for anything.

Amongst your (my) friends, the percentage is much higher....probably 90 percent. Yes, I know a LOT of folks and I DO have to watch myself around 10 percent or so, of them. They simply don't have a wide or deep enough experience to appreciate irony. Fair enough. Those that think I'm an incomprehensible asshole, would hopefully stop coming around after a while.

BUT....BUT....on the net (Mudcat) it seems that verrry few folks understand irony at all. I've said things that were positively "Python-esque" in their ridiculousness, and had miffed PMs from mainstream Mudcatters, (people whom I've communicated with for quite a while) who simply didn't have a clue that I wasn't being serious.

Is it mostly not seeing a FACIAL EXPRESSION? Someone said that without that (sort of) wink, far fewer people would get ANYONE'S jokes.

Veteran internet users (and I ain't one of them) MUST have dealt with this, and come up with solutions in the past. I've started putting "ha ha!" after certain sentences, but that makes me wanna puke. It's like explaining a joke. I know that some folks say something like "grn", which may mean "grin" I guess, but that's almost as bad.

Hmmmmm, like a lot of times, just writing something down seems to answer yer own questions. Perhaps there IS no way to alert people to written humour. I gather those "facial expressions" are crucial".

***************************************************************

By the way....on a completely different subject: Joan Baez is coming to town, and the paper said that in every concert she's done this month, people (from all parts of the audience) are getting up and leaving......BECAUSE SHE'S BEEN CRITICAL OF BUSH AND THE WAR!!

Who on earth did these people think they were going to see? Yanni, Celine Dion? Now I find this news story screamingly hysterical. So is it just me?

Great thread Jer

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Steve-o
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 11:50 AM

Wonderful thread, Jeri. As the ever-wise Dave Barry has said, "No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously". We are developing a nation of whiners...it comes with having it too easy, having too much, and valuing fewer of the important things. Also, I think, we seem to LISTEN to everybody now, and somehow give them credence, whereas in the past we often would take the time to evaluate (which is now disparagingly called "judging"). As Arlo so wisely ovserved, "America is not the only country that can find out things about the last guy, but it's the only country that would take time for that guy. Other countries would say, 'He's the last guy- screw him!'" At least here at the Mudcat, we should learn to ignore the whiners.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 11:57 AM

"It's not my fault" applies every bit as strongly when it's management and so forth trying to lay off the blame for their errors on the people who get injured as a consequence.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 12:06 PM

Last time I touched on that subject was on a crossposted topic to rec.music.folk and rec.music.filk following my usage of the wink ;-) being missed.

Here is most of one reply:

Jon Freeman wrote:
> in case, I was trying to use the "irony/joke one" in my post

Even with an emoticon, irony has a bad history of being
misunderstood. And emoticons indicate that _something_ is
intended as humor without indicating which portion thereof.
Generally, it's safer on the net to spell things out -- or
to make your irony *VERY* broad and explicit -- even if that
does ruin the joke. That's especially true when
crossposting.

Or you can simply say "OK, I knew that but thanks" when
someone isn't sure you're joking and attempts to clarify.
YOU know it was a joke, but other readers may not, and it's
worth explaining for their sake.

I don't agree BTW. I think that without facial expressions and particularly when dealing with an "audience" containing many you don't "know", that some indication whether *grin* or the emoticon is needed but I also believe that people should try to recognise such indications and give a little thought before diving in.

That's not to suggest that I'm infalible - I've managed to missread a post and dived in responding to what I'd read rather than what was said on more than one occasion.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 12:54 PM

Emoticons. Hmm. What did people do for many years when they used to write letters with pen and paper?

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Gareth
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 12:59 PM

Actually they used the psudonym (SP) "discusseded of Tondbridge Wells"

With appologies to any 'Catters from that part of Kent (UK)

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 01:04 PM

Casual Observer, When people write with pen and paper, they know who they are addressing and write accordingly.

With Internet forums and newsgroups, one is putting a message out to an unknown audience. One could argue that in those circumstances, one should always play safe and avoid anything such as irony on the basis that it might be missundertood but I believe that life would become very dull and boring without these things.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 01:24 PM

Rick, to answer your question, yes! Except for when you're driving west on Thursdays, and then the answer would be 'seven'.

My standard reaction in cases when I'm not sure if a statement's made ironically is to play along and respond literally. Sometimes I escalate the irony to see what happens. You don't hurt anyone's feelings by not taking them seriously, but if they DID mean to be ironic, I can have the same claim of "you didn't get it" that they have. It's a wimp's way, but it's mine.

Casual Observer, I believe using irony wouldn't have been much of a problem in letters because people generally wrote to people they knew. They'd know what to expect.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: harvey andrews
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 01:47 PM

Also Rick, tone of voice as well as facial expression is a primary tool in irony, just a little more inflection on a word....like "Oh really!" compared to "Oh, really?"
As to the Baez audience...they're beyond irony obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 02:06 PM

What about writing a Letter to the Editor for publication in a newspaper? What about writing a letter of inquiry to someone you've never met? People are not always personally acquainted with the recipients of their letters.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:14 PM

I wouldn't think most people would use irony in letters they wrote directly to someone they didn't know. I could be wrong though. I'm fairly sure irony in editorials, articles and other forms of public writing was occasionally taken literally.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: GUEST,Casual Obsever
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:59 PM

If a reader can't take a joke, how is that the writer's fault?

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 05:02 PM

Basically C-O, we have no idea and you're probably right. Sorry if we offended you. Have a nice day.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 05:07 PM

Casual Observer, I don't believe it is the writer's fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 05:39 PM

Didn't people get all mad at Jonathan Swift when he suggested that they start eating children to reduce the population?

I suppose it's impossible for any one person to communicate so perfectly, so that EVERYONE reading his/her words can understand them. It's just part of the human condition.

Sure, be offended when there's really something important to be offended about. Otherwise, get irritated for a minute if you must, then go grab some coffee and get on with your day.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 07:02 PM

Irony tends to be the default mode for people writi g from teh East side of the Atlantic. It is when we actually mean what we say that we are likely to feel it necessary to point that out, rather than the other way round.

And I mean that.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 07:23 PM

The only way to ALMOST ensure ALMOST no one's offended by humor is to dumb everything down. I'd hate to see that happen because I really enjoy wit, and one of the things I love most about this place would be gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: John Hardly
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 08:25 PM

I hate ironing.

I always seem to press more wrinkles IN that out.

And it's hot.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 08:34 PM

That one reminds me of a post on rmc years ago. Possibly not original but have just looked it up to refresh my memory. Someone posted:

"Not very good with irony, are you?"

and a reply was:

"Sure she is. That's the hot piece of metally your flatten out your
shirties with."

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 08:59 PM

Hmmmmmmm...OK, I give up. Time to dumb myself down!

I LOVE:
Adam Sandler
J Lo
Mel Gibson
Singer songwriters who let me feel their pain (especially grrlll ones under twenty three)
Reality shows
Short phrases from Dubya
Ovation guitars
Kaiser capos
Halle Berry
"Friends"
Tommy Franks' haircut

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 10:38 PM

Well, I dunno. I think I'm one of those writers who just can't do irony, and I think it's probably my fault. I don't know why. Rick, can you give me irony lessons? I'd ask Spaw, but I'm afraid of how I'd turn out.
And yes, I think the blame goes to the writer. Being one of those writers, I must say I'm sorry.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 06:52 AM

Of course irony works both ways, and sometimes fails to work. People are more likely to miss if when it, on the face of it, says something favourable.

For example if you sid that, with all their faults, you have to admit that Bush is a likable guy, and that Blair's humble sincerity is beyond question...Well there are some people who'd take that at face value.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: GUEST,Raedwulf
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 08:26 AM

Simple rules:

1) If you are not trying to offend me, there is nothing for me to be offended at.

2) If you *are* trying to offend me... I ain't going to give you the satisfaction! In fact, I'll probably laugh at you instead, because you're an asshole.

So either way, I don't get offended. Simple, innit? *g*

It's an interesting question, Jeri, but it should be pointed out that a lot of people here are speaking of anger and offense as practically the same. In my book, they're not. No way.

It takes a fair amount to get me angry. It usually boils down to someone's blind stupidity. I've fired off a few stiff posts at people who just won't/don't/can't read what is put in front of them. But that's anger borne of frustration, not because I'm offended by their stupidity, let alone p-o-v. Offence can lead to anger, but it can also lead to sadness, pity, & a variety of other emotions. Just the same as anger doesn't have to be caused by offence. I get narked sometimes - I can't remember the last time I got offended.

Perhaps I'm being pedantic here, & making an over subtle distinction, but words are important. Number of times I've seen an argument because one word means two different things to two different people, & neither realises... {rollseyes} Words are important!

So what exactly were you getting at, when you said "culture of offendedness", Jeri? To me, a lot of what's been said is very much tangential to what I understand from the phrase (not that I'm knocking the discussion! *g*). If it's what I understood, then the simple application of rules 1 & 2 above would save a hell of a lot of unpleasantness in the world.

Now {snarls} how the hell do we drum that into all the blockheads of the world???!!! ;-) *ggg*

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 08:30 AM

Bush's mother loves him, and so (probably) does his wife. I don't know enough about Blair to know if anyone loves *him*.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: John Hardly
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 11:28 AM

I LOVE:
Adam Sandler
J Lo
Mel Gibson
Singer songwriters who let me feel their pain (especially grrlll ones under twenty three)
Reality shows
Short phrases from Dubya
Ovation guitars
Kaiser capos
Halle Berry
"Friends"
Tommy Franks' haircut

...and little baby ducks...

...and ice cream. And I love you too. -Tom T. Hall (lyricist extrordinaire)

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 12:04 PM

Raedwulf's rule works well enough when what's being said might offend you. It's a bit more complicated when what's said or done is calculated to hurt someone else, and if you just grin along or hold your tongue you feel you'd be colluding in that.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 12:39 PM

John...Why I oughttta!!

You were just waiting to be offended weren't you? Or was it the 'culture' you were lyin' in wait for?

On the other hand, I've just realized that I don't REALLY know J Lo. Heather says she has a huge bum, and sings a song on Much music that goes:

"I usta have a little, now I have a lot,
But I'm still Jenny, Jenny from da block.

Being a fan of good poetry, I'll have to give this gal another chance.

Substitute "Tom T Hall" for her name.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: harpgirl
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 01:00 PM

...gee whiz, Jeri...you sure did get a lot of people to play "ain't it awful" with you!!!! LOL harpy

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: *daylia*
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 01:37 PM

Ah, you people are a mammering, folley-fallen ratsbane!   And that's not even taking into account the dankis, guts-griping strumpets among you!

Ya gleeking, fly-bitten moldwarps!   ;)


For the Shakespearean insult generator that generated those, click here

:)   daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: leprechaun
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 01:41 PM

Steve Martin is my hero.

Subject: RE: BS: Culture of Offendedness
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Apr 03 - 02:02 PM

Here's the original

Bitching and whining
And pissing and moaning
Screaming and snorting
Till my mouth is foaming
Snotty name-calling
And sarcastic zings
These are a few of my favorite things

When the dog bites
When the bee stings
Then it's not so bad
They're just some more of my favorite things
That it's you and not me makes me glad

Harpy, funny, ain't it? "Oh, lets have a complaint thread about people complaining too much." At least I try to save my offendedness for the things that really bug me. If I did it too much, I'd be like the little boy who cried "asshole!" once too often until no one paid attention to him. (Of course that wouldn't happen here.)

Must go off to find the snow thread. I hate snow. I'm big-time offended by snow, and I think we oughta drop about a gazillion tons of it on Saddam. "Here's a friggin' chemical for ya - it's called H₂O!!!"