BS: How the US will finally lose its power?

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose it's power?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 03 - 05:21 PM

You mean like an invasion and occupation of Syria, on the heels of an invasion and occupation of Iraq, on the heels of an invasion and occupation of Afghanistan, all while running up the credit card on a new Star Wars plan, with no job to pay for any of it?

When you see that the military budget is half the entire budget (by rooting out all those secret hiding places for defense spending), it doesn't take too long to figure out, with this bunch of warrior-O boys in office runnin' up the deficits and cleaning out the treasury, ordering out for new tanks, smart bombs, etc. that we'll be broke sooner, rather than later.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose it's power?
From: DougR
Date: 04 May 03 - 01:15 PM

Dream on you dreamers of a world government of some sort. How will the US finally lose it's power? It won't. It just ain't gonna happen.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose it's power?
From: CarolC
Date: 04 May 03 - 01:18 PM

It just ain't gonna happen.

DougR, as I recall, that's what you said a few months ago about the US waging a first strike war against Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose it's power?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 03 - 01:39 PM

Who is talking world government?

I'm talking about making the Twin Cities the provincial capital of the North Star Dakota Territory. Well, I can dream, can't I? :)

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose it's power?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 May 03 - 02:02 PM

". . . . it just ain't gonna happen."
                        —quoth Caesar

Or better still:—

Ozymandius
by: Percy Bysshe Shelley
(First Published in 1817)

I met a traveler from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed;

And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandius, king of kings:
Look on my words, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Respectfully submitted for your consideration,

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose it's power?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 May 03 - 02:19 PM

That will teach me to cut from a poetry web site and paste without rereading it carefully. My apologies to Shelley and to those who know his poetry. Those lines should read

"My name is Ozymandius, king of kings:
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose it's power?
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 May 03 - 04:12 PM

DougR must have heard the same man I heard on PBS (I thought you listen only to Fox, Doug?); the man said that the US will hold its power for another hundred years...

What hubris. My mother would have said, Don't tempt fate. I say that there's many a scenario possible that would change the geo-political outlook for generations. Just suppose that 20 years-10 years-5 years- 2 months- from now someone hit 4 or 5 of our major cities with some weapons of mass destruction- whether nuclear or chemical. You don't think it would change our world - and its balance of power- as we know it, Doug?

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose it's power?
From: mg
Date: 04 May 03 - 06:43 PM

It all depends on population problems...if the population growth halts and reverses (hopefully by choice instead of by AIDS and other horrors) there will be such better times ahead for everyone. If not, maybe we'll adapt and maybe not.   

Good scenario:
We won't need U.S. power. Goody. We can keep our prosperity and others can have theirs.

I think we won't need roads because we will have aerocars using magnetic levitation or something. Just float above the surface and if an obstacle arises, zoom over it.

We won't need big cities. Population will be better distributed, like back to South Dakota. Fuel will be non-existant because we will harness the wind and sun and turn sewage into electricity. Wait and see.

Food will be more local, if we can ever gather our wits together about this. We won't look for the cheapest food, but the healthiest (we are well on our way to this now that we have a substantial working and middle class).

There will be more village dairies and gardens and orchards like in bygone days. We will wonder why in the world we bought food from Chile and South Africa.

We will know much more about people's nutritional needs and taylor nutrition accordingly. There will be much much less obesity, diabetes, heart problems, and all the drugs they dose people with.

All this information and knowledge will spread via the internet rapidly..good science will be done and applied.

Once tyrants tremble and quit oppressing people, all sorts of stuff can be delivered to poor people, if necessary, like emergency food in famines, vaccines etc...what keeps it from them now is often having to fight their way in. Through micro loans etc. poverty can be eliminated.

So if the world gets better it won't need US power. If it gets worse, there are way worse scenarios than the US taking charge. Remember these words: by our sons in servile chains..by Robert Burns. Think of it. Whoever else would be in charge might not be benevolent.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose it's power?
From: Gareth
Date: 04 May 03 - 07:08 PM

Don - Errr ! Shouldn't you attribute your comment of -

"Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose it's power?
From: DonMeixner - PM
Date: 02 May 03 - 05:10 PM

The Pros from Dover? Just a bunch of golfers in Pappa-san outfits with bamboo umbrellas. They should stick with tracheo-esophogeal fistulas and leave golfing to the lawyers."

To the original M.A.S.H. - or was this one of your tests to determine how well read 'Catters were ??????

Mind you, and I heard this from a Peace Corp member in Malawi many years ago. " Most of America is waiting for he San Andreas" fault to move again, and it's 'Goodby California'"

On the other hand, and I forget the title and wrriter, of a Sci Fi story about a California Earthquake, where the Tectonic block of 'California remains above sealevel, and the rest of thee US of A submerges !!

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose it's power?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 May 03 - 08:57 PM

Well, the Third Reich was supposed to last a thousand years. Came in a bit short though. One hundred years? Possibly. But just think back one hundred years.

Assuming a non-catastrophic future (which is pretty optimistic), the differential between the wealth of the USA and other parts of the world can be expected to diminish in time, and ultimately the people and government in that part of the world won't have any more power than any other equivalent region of the world.

And I would assume that that would be what Americans would want to happen - it would definitely be more in keeping with the ideas of the Founding Fathers, as I understand them, rather than getting saddled with holding down some kind of world empire.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose it's power?
From: kendall
Date: 04 May 03 - 09:28 PM

Change is enevitable, and, resistance to change is also enevitable. Nothing in the universe is static, the only constant is change. How many hundreds of years did Rome last? Did arrogance help bring it down?

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose it's power?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 May 03 - 10:12 PM

Ebbie:

Yes, if someone hit several of US cities that would indeed bring about an accelerated change of geo-political circumstances.

But the same could be said for a rash of assasinations of government leaders or media folk. This, now doubt, would have the same effect as the "circling of wagons" began and America, as we know it, wouold begin to crumble under it's own paranoia.

A more likely scenerio, which I have mentioned in another thread, is that the ruling class looses it most important voting block: The NASCAR, country music and Budweiser group. IF this happens, then Boss Hog is "outta here". Like yesterday! And I think that this can and will happen when this group figgures out that there just ain't no money in social programs that have:

1. Paid for Nursing Home services for granny and now she's movin' in with them.

2. The highways aren't gettin' fixed, let alone improved, because it was more important to give back a lot of money to Boss Hog's friends, then to spend it on maintaining infastructure.

3. That heath insurance becomes so unaffordable that Joe Sixpack can't pay it any more.

4. That schools just fall apart from a lack olf funding to keep the dooors opens and the roofs not leaking.

5. When homelessness becomes common in every community and mentally ill people walk aimlessly thru the streets of every American community.

Yeah, when these thing come to a neighborhood near Joe Sixpack, he's gonna turn on Boss Hog and when that occcurs... ahhh, there won't be enought TV ads to smooth things over...

So, yeah, America will be eaten, like cancer, from the inside!

And you can take that to the bank...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose it's power?
From: DougR
Date: 05 May 03 - 03:18 AM

Wishful thinking, Bobert.

Ebbie: if you read my posts more carefully, you would note that I often repeat things I have heard on PBS. You HAVE to listen to the opposing view, otherwise, how would you know what to bitch about?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose it's power?
From: GUEST,Larry Kaufman
Date: 05 May 03 - 11:29 AM

The only logical split is for California to be part of Mexico.   This would make a lot of sense.   They are 35 billion in debt (thaks Grey Davis and democrats) which would fit in perfectly to the lousy economy in Mexico.   It would eliminate all the ilegal alliens from sneaking into California since it would be part of Mexico.   All the hollywood liberals who threatened to leave America if Bush were elected would get their wish. Finally, all hollywood films would be foreign films would would give them more stature with the critics.

The next step would be for the USA to annex the Canadian Maritines once Quebec suceeds from Canada.

A few facts to put the military in perspective.   The USA spends about as much on the military as most of the other countries in the world combined. However, this accounts for about 13% (not 50%) of our budget and is at the lowest level as a percentage of our GNP since world war two.   How is this possible?   The USA accounts for 43% of the world GNP (per newsweek magazine)    This is the greatest percentage in the history of civilization.   And the percentage is growing as the USA accounts for 50% of the world expense on research and development.   The bottom line is that we are not only the world superpower in military, we are also the world superpower in economy. The European economy is in shambles and deteriorating.   The Japenese stock market is at a 20 year low.   While the USA economy is stagnant it is still outperforming the rest of the world.

In many ways we are paying the price for business coruption which came from changes to the laws made during the Clinton administration which gave us a false inflated economy in the 90's until the bubble burst and they were exposed.    We are also paying for the foreign messes left by the Clinton administration- ignoring Al Queda, Ossama, Sadaam, and North Korea.

Will Bush fix the economy or make it worse? Time will tell.   Keep this in mind- the top 10% of wage earners make 46$ of the income but pay 67% of the total taxes.   The bottom 40% of wage earners pay nothing in federal income tax.   Yet most people say this isn't fair. How much should the top 10% pay- 80%, 90% 120%? The top 50% of wage earners pay 96% of the taxes.   It doesn't seem right to me that half the people pay all the taxes, while the other half pay nothing.   The real question is not whether the USA will lose its military power but whether it will lose its economic power.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose it's power?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 May 03 - 11:59 AM

"...the top 10% of wage earners make 46$ of the income"

Shouldn't that read "The top 10% of wage earners take 46$ of the income"? Though surely most of the loot doesn't come in the form of wages, it comes in share options and stuff like that.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose it's power?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 03 - 12:23 PM

GUEST,Larry Kaufman, can you cite any sources for your figures?

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose it's power?
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 05 May 03 - 01:36 PM

Gareth,

That would be "How well read Catters are."

I don't need to test Catters for their literacy. I find Catters to be most literate. I am probably the least literate and worse speller of the bunch.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose it's power?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 May 03 - 01:57 PM

"...the top 10% of wage earners make 46$ of the income"
Shouldn't that read "The top 10% of wage earners take 46$ of the income"?

Shouldn't it read 46 % in both posts?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose it's power?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 03 - 01:57 PM

CarolC, the figures depend upon the sources, of course.

The percent of the US budget that is devoted to military spending isn't easily tracked, because so much of it is hidden away in nooks and crannies outside DoD.

Here are some interesting figures from Center for Defense Information (pro-military spending think tank):

http://www.cdi.org/budget/2004/world-military-spending.cfm

Here is a Quaker/Friends website that provides figures on the 2000 military budget, which it claims totals 41.3% of the federal budget:

http://www.fcnl.org/issues/mil/sup/mil_taxsuprt.htm

There are three main figures to look for when trying to determine anything about the military budget. Present spending (new programs, current bills like military pay, etc); past spending (what we are still paying on for old systems, like the failed Star Wars of the 1980s, decommissioning costs of weapons systems, fleets, etc); and finally discretionary spending, which is the amount that doesn't quite make it into the budget, but still accounts for a substantial amount of military spending. For FY 2004 military budget, this will include the war against Iraq & Homeland Security.

So, the figures usually bantered about now (especially since the huge defense spending increase Bush put in the FY 2003 budget) is actually a summation of the FY 2001 budget, because the figures aren't yet available for 2002 & we haven't finished FY 2003. The budget being considered by Congress & the President right now, is the FY 2004 budget.

So, the general consensus is that present military spending in FY 2001 amounted to approximately 24.2% of the total federal budget. The past military spending accounted for 16.9%, which totals 41.1% of the federal budget, which does not include discretionary spending. I don't know what that was for 2001.

So now, when you hear that the military budget is half the entire federal budget, people are talking about projection estimates for FY 2004, which WILL include the hefty increase in military spending in FY 2003, the discretionary spending for the Iraq war and bringing Homeland Security online (which include discretionary spending in both FY 2003 and FY 2004), and the discretionary spending amounts which remain unknown for FY 2004.

Subject: BS: A small digression
From: Mark Clark
Date: 05 May 03 - 02:51 PM

I've recently finished reading Time Travel in Einstein's Universe by J. Richard Gott III, a highly readable treatise on the origins of our universe by an award-winning scholar, professor and writer eminently qualified to author such a book. The last chapter of the book, Report from the Future, is a delightful treatise on the implications of the Copernican principle.

You'll recall that Copernicus created quite a stir by claiming (c. 1530) that the earth was not the central point in the universe about which everything else revolved. The key insight that allowed Copernicus to see this basic fact was his realization that there was nothing special about his location, his point of observation. To quote Gott:

The Copernican principle works because, by definition, out of all the places for intelligent observers to live, only a few special places and many more non-special places exist. You are simply likely to be at one of the many nonspecial places. Christiaan Huygens (Newton's clever contemporaty, who developed the wave theory of light and the most accurate clock of his day) used this principle to correctly predict the distances to the stars. He reasoned, Why should the Sun be special, the brightest light in the universe? He noted that if Sirius, the brightest star seen in the sky, was intrinsically as bright as the Sun, he could figure out its distance simply by estimating how far away you would have to move the Sun to make it look as dim as Sirius. Later investigators found that Huygens had gotten the distance to sirius right to within a factor of 20, a remarkable accomplishment for that day.

Gott realized the Copernican principle can be used to make all kinds of predictions. For example,

Our species, Homo sapiens, has been around for about 200,000 years. If there is nothing special about our time of observation now, we have a 95 percent chance of living sometime in the middle 95 percent of human history. Thus, we can set 95 percent confidence level limits on the future longevity of out species. It should be more than 5,100 years but less than 7.8 million years. The average, or mean, duration of all species lies between 1 million and 11 million years.

Gott goes on to predict future longevity for a number of things including the good old U.S. of A. He states, with 95 percent accuracy, that the USA is likely to last for more than 5.7 years but less than 8,736 years. This is a large span to be sure, no country has ever lasted that long, so the prediction could be improved with the addition of other data, still it means many of us could actually witness the end of the USA and still be within Gott's estimate.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose it's power?
From: DougR
Date: 05 May 03 - 05:58 PM

My, Mark, you almost sound gleeful to be among those "lucky" ones that might get to witness the demise of the U. S. I don't suppose you would want to take any bets on the accuracy of the writer's projections would you? Hmmm?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose it's power?
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 05 May 03 - 09:07 PM

"If the game is lost, then we're all the same. No one left to place or take the blame. Will we leave this place an empty stone, or that shining ball of blue we can call our home?"

"Throwing Stones"
       Bob Weir

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose it's power?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 05 May 03 - 10:45 PM

Relax, Doug. It's only mathematics. Nothing political in either Copernicus or Gott. Besides, I strongly suspect the USA I grew up loving, a USA based on human ideals even if imperfectly executed, a USA that admired fair play and cared about the little guy, has already met its end while we all watched.

All hail, Oceanna. War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength—or at least ubiquitous.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose it's power?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 03 - 10:53 PM

Very elegantly put, Mark.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose it's power?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 May 03 - 11:39 PM

How the US will finally lose its power?

Well...here are some possibilities:

1. William Shatner will move back to Canada. This would be a fatal stroke to the greatness of the USA.

2. The USA will bomb and invade numerous other countries until there are no "enemies" left anywhere to bomb. The military will still have to do something to justify their expensive existence, so they will have to bomb the USA itself, lacking other identifiable targets...thus causing national suicide. End of story.

3. Jim Carey and most of the other top comedians in the USA will move back to Canada, where they came from. The USA will self-destruct, due to a combination of too much political correctness and too few good jokes.

4. The Neo-Cons, in a desperate attempt to win one last election despite having TOTALLY f*cked the economy, will cut ALL upfront taxes (except to poor people, of course) to absolute ZERO! Enough fools will vote for them on this basis so that they actually get elected, but then there will be almost no money left to run anything. No money for schools, roads, law enforcement, utilities, medicine, etc... The government will collapse. The rich will fortify themselves in sealed enclaves, surrounded by heavily armed mercenary soldiers. The public will riot and go berserk. The armed forces will fragment into warring bands and battle over the ruins. BUT...the Republicans will at least have the honor of winning the last presidential election before everything falls into total chaos...and they may get to crown their candidate emperor while Washington burns.

Looking over the above, I think the Shatner possibility is the scariest, all things considered...but the USA's demise could be Canada's ticket to World domination and a kinder, gentler era in which arms expenditures dwindle to almost nil and there's a Tim Horton's on every corner.

Taking that into consideration, I'm all for it. C'mon home, Bill!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 May 03 - 01:28 AM

The bottom 40% of wage earners pay nothing in federal income tax. (Larry Kaufman) Are you saying that 40% of Americans pay NO income tax? Or that 40% of those people below a certain minimum of income pay no income tax? Until the advent of Earned Income Credit (first under Reagan and expanded under Clinton)I always paid income tax; I was a single mother with a VERY low income.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 May 03 - 01:29 AM

The bottom 40% of wage earners pay nothing in federal income tax. (Larry Kaufman) Are you saying that 40% of Americans pay NO income tax? Or that 40% of those people below a certain minimum of income pay no income tax? Until the advent of Earned Income Credit (first under Reagan and expanded under Clinton)I always paid income tax; I was a single mother with a VERY low income.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: DougR
Date: 06 May 03 - 01:33 AM

Ebbie: maybe they made a special exception for you! You are opposed to tax cuts aren't you? :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 06 May 03 - 04:25 AM

The bottom 40% of wage earners pay nothing in federal income tax

It sounds unbelievable to Ebbie and I guess it is.
- 40 % of all US-Americans (including babies, handicapped,...) I'd believe at once without another thought
- 40 % of all potential and real wage earners (that is those in the right age, including the unemployed, those in training like students,...) I could also believe
- 40 % of actual wage earners is a figure I refuse to believe without documentation.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: Gurney
Date: 06 May 03 - 08:14 AM

In my working life, from 1958 to date, I've seen the 'Western Powers' get steadily poorer, and I would attribute a good deal of this decline in 'wealth' to globalisation.

We/they used to import materials. Now it's importation of goods for sale. This means JOBS were exported, and the jobless are still around.
Disenchantment. How many people no longer TRY to get a job, because they are better off on the dole, because of the meagre wages available.
And how many turn to crime, because that is the easy option to poverty? How many of the worse-off suffer from crime, because they are the easiest targets?
The gap between the 'haves' and 'have-nots' seems to grow yearly, and I don't like it. A nations success is based on the success of its citizens. Once you had to be a pretty forlorn individual to be unemployable, and now you only have to be over 45!
I have no experience of the US, but the countries I have lived in were once reasonably wealthy.
OK, a simplistic view, but I feel that if everyone had a job, most other problems would sort themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 May 03 - 10:30 AM

The jobs were exported because there is cheaper labour in Asia and Latin America. When companies were small, and owned by local people, they naturally employed local people. When companies become huge multinational entities (with no loyalty to anything except their own bottom line), then they simply moved the jobs where the labour is the cheapest...like Mexico, Korea, China, and so on.

That is why our traditional jobs have been exported.

The corporate big boys have systematically destroyed the free enterprise system as it once existed, and simultaneously put themselves beyond the reach of the law, to all intents and purposes. This is the ugly truth that the Neo-Cons dance around and refuse to recognize (cos they're being paid off). They pretend to support traditional capitalism while they actually consent to its destruction and its replacement by a corporate oligarchy which resembles Communism in a number of ways, but has a very different outward style of presenting itself...it advertises consumer goods through garish advertising instead of mythologizing a political party and leader through garish posters.

In either case, the local people are disenfranchised and enslaved by a system that is beyond their reach and insensitive to their actual needs...and doesn't care.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 06 May 03 - 03:02 PM

Gurney-America doesn't have nearly the unemployment/welfare problem that Europe does. Our unemployment rates have been below 10% for as long as I remember, and they aren't getting worse as quickly as many feared when the economy started souring. I imagine that the booms of the 50's and 90's are primarily responsible. I agree that employment is a very important thing, but we have educational apathy to blame for most of our problems.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 May 03 - 03:09 PM

And the educational apathy may be due to a society that has been sedated by television and consumerism, and lost touch with the pioneer strengths on which it was founded. That's certainly my impression.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: DougR
Date: 06 May 03 - 04:22 PM

L. H.: there you go again (borrowing the words of a former GREAT president of the United States)!

You talk as though the corporations that are taking the jobs overseas are fully owned by all those crooked executives running the company. Not so! They are owned by stockholders, and as I reminded folks in another thread, all stockholders are not conservatives. Actually, it is conceivable that some of the largest shareholders in the corporations you bitch about could be union trust funds! I don't know that for a fact, but it is certainly possible.

The shareholders expect results, and if taking the labor cost to other countries is the most cost effective way of showing a profit, the executives are going to do it, and you won't find many shareholders up in arms because of it.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 May 03 - 07:16 PM

You're right, Doug, and that's what's so sad about it. Most people are entirely willing to cut the nose off their own face (or their neighbour's) in order to put a quick dollar in their hands...without the least regard for what lies a little farther down the road. It's the disease of selfishness and shortsightedness.

The fools who are cutting down the Amazon are doing the same thing, regardless of whether or not they are big corporate players or just poor dirt farmers.

The only thing that can change that sort of blind drift into waste is solid moral leadership from the top...and solid legislation to back it up!

Now how can we get good leadership from the top when the leaders have (almost) all been bought out by the big financial players?

Darned if I know. I just try to govern my own life as decently and wisely as I can. I know the World will never be perfect, so I live with it as best I can.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: DougR
Date: 07 May 03 - 01:20 AM

L. H., I think you missed my point. The stockholders of the corporations you love to hate are not villians, they just want the money they invested to pay-off so that they can enjoy a reasonable retirement after many years of toil. They obviously want the companies they invest in to produce well so that their retirement income will be assured.

There has been many a hue and cry (even here on the Mudcat) about the Enron debacle. And that is what it was! The executives of the firm looted the shareholder's (which included the employees) investments in the company. If, however, the bubble would not have burst, and Enron would have continued to prosper (say for ten years or so) do you think the shareholders would have been complaining? I don't think so.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 07 May 03 - 02:00 AM

LittleHawk used this phrase: "and a kinder, gentler era..." Isn't it amazing to think that that phrase was used by Bush Senior in his first presidential campaign. That, and "a thousand points of light."

Have the Bushes produced anything kinder or gentler? The thousand points of light were bombs going off over Afghanistan and Iraq (twice).

And who knows what is yet to come?

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 May 03 - 10:12 AM

Okay, Doug, granted. But what is life actually about...in the final analysis? Is it about money? I don't think so.

Why do you help out your family members when they are in trouble? Would you refuse to do so if they didn't put some money in your hand first?

Why do you defend your country when it is invaded? Would you refuse to do so unless the government paid you a handsome fee first?

Why do you treat your neighbours decently? Would you refuse to do so unless there was a "profit to be made" first by so doing?

Life is actually about love, and we are ALL family...and as a matter of a fact even the animals and plants are family...in a more indirect sense. Without each other, without a bountiful nature around us, our lives would be barren and without hope.

These are philosophical considerations, but they are what lies at the heart of life.

I submit that we are living in a society which has so over-emphasized "the bottom line" that it is digging its own grave in the process.

And it won't matter how much money you have in the bank when they lower you down into that grave...or how many possessions you accumulated...but it will matter who loves and remembers you for the love you demonstrated to them.

It is because the business world denies or is blind to that greater truth that I get upset with the business world. Oh, they may pay lip service to it occasionally, but only so they can sell more product.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 07 May 03 - 11:11 AM

Really well put, LH. Thanks.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: GUEST, Claymore
Date: 07 May 03 - 11:43 AM

Hey folks... a reality check. We have had many comments about how the Republicans are responsible for trying to take over the world and that such hubris will eventually cause our down-fall.

Try this one on: Bush has just won two military engagements demonstrating conclusively that the US is vastly the most powerful nation in the history of earth. Yet, virtually all political commentators have stated that if he doesn't do something about the economy, he may well lose the next election and be out of power. And he must carefully submit his budgets, selctions for public office and even his war plans to a democratically elected legislative body This is not conjecture; it's exactly what happened to his father. It's what happened to Churchill. It is not what happened to Saddam, Stalin, or Mao.

I would like to suggest that a Nation that has the ability to change leaders who do not provide for the wishes and concerns of it's citizenry, has a great chance to go on for many many years, and is functionally capable of existing for the duration of Earth itself.


And DonMeixner, their next demand was the best of all, "A nurse who could keep her tits out of the way while working close..."

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 May 03 - 01:12 PM

Yes, Claymore, your forecast may prove accurate if Bush doesn't manage to improve the economy soon. The main thing that worries me is that Karl Rove may talk him into another convenient war shortly before or just around the time of the next presidential election...and that it will be fought primarily to disarm the Democrats (!) rather than the Koreans/Syrians/whoever. Disarming them will be a merely secondary consideration. The first concern of any political administration is staying in power. That was Saddam's first concern, and Stalin's first concern too. It's universal among politicians.

In 1939-40 Hitler proved pretty convincingly that Germany was, at that moment, the most powerful and effective military power in the history of the World...and the German public was mightily impressed and delighted by how things were going. So...winning military victories is not necessarily a guarantee of longterm political success (though it beats suffering military defeats... ) (*grin*).

The Russians, by the way, also proved to be " a Nation that has the ability to change leaders who do not provide for the wishes and concerns of its citizenry"...only they did it through a far less democratic mechanism...the Communist Party bureaucracy. What I mean is this: After Stalin's death, they repudiated Stalinism and considerably liberalized the system under Kruschev. In so doing, they were certainly partially responding to the desires of most of the general public...to a point. They subsequently changed leadership in a peaceful manner several times, and made further attempts at liberalization, culminating in Gorbachev's "Glasnost" and "Perestroika". These again were attempts to meet the wishes and concerns of the citizenry, as well as to simply deal with practical realities in a changing world (which is another way of saying the same thing). Gorbachev's only error was in assuming that his populace was mature enough to embrace such radical change and not capsize the boat in the process. They were not. Yeltsin promised them unrealistic dreams, and they fell for it. Too bad. They could have done better.

But I have to disagree with your final statement. No nation-state or political entity is "functionally capable of existing for the duration of Earth itself". Not Rome. Not Assyria. Not the Egyptian empire. Not Atlantis. Not the Incas. Not the USA.

The only way your assertion could prove true would be if the World ended a lot sooner than I think it's going to....like quite soon, in other words.

Face it, man. You will shortly reincarnate as something other than an American, and your loyalties will then be given to some other temporary beneficiary. This life is a stage play. I appreciate the fact that you play your particular part in it with real gusto.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 08 May 03 - 10:40 AM

LH, I appreciate your response, but I think your point makes mine.

The Soviets did not have a political system that not only mandated regular change, but defined rules for doing so. To those of us who thought Clinton was the worse thing to happen to the honor of a serving government, we still knew that it would only last 8 years, and that the rules for changing it were well defined. Even to those who disagreed with the outcome of the last election, and the Supreme Court's role in it, they never attempted to oppose the Courts eventual role in that process. It is the way we do things... There was never a history of anything similar in Russia.

Not every culture is destined to survive for any great length of time. The Incas and Aztecs murdered and enslaved millons of its local populations to the point where 138 Spanish soldiers and 30 horses took the whole empire. The French language is dying and so will it's culture. German used to be the language of science, now a few phrases are used to discribe phychological problems. English is the language of the sea, the sky, and space beyond.

And I believe that language is an intergral part of culture. English is growing at a rate 10 and twenty times of any other language. It has proven the most adaptable of any language, by borrowing the concept of prefixes and suffixes form the Germans, without the stilted constructs. The English dictionaries add words every year, at a rate matched by no other language.

Thus, it is my conceit that, with the most adaptable form of governance, coupled with a language and culture that drips adaptation will, in the end, triumph over all but the most physical termination of the Earth. And who knows, by then it may be the stars.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: Amos
Date: 08 May 03 - 10:47 AM

Ah, CLaymore, what a delight to detect the visionary and poet hiding inside that crusty shell!! And here I had thought you were a hopeless reactionary!! My apologies. Just goes to show you...


A

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: MMario
Date: 08 May 03 - 10:58 AM

to backtack a bit - the figures in the US for un-employment are skewed - as just one example - last month I listened to a report which simultaneously claimed that state-wide un-employment was down - and that due to lay-offs, etc, 150,000 additional people had been rendered jobless. can't happen.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 08 May 03 - 02:10 PM

Claymore-I don't think that English is going to work out quite that well. Its very facility in absorbing new words is driving it to unwieldiness. If it survives at all, it will be due to a continuous shedding and regrowth, as it has been doing for its entire history. Chaucerian English is no more akin to modern English than is French to Spanish. While I will admit that the language and culture are quite adaptable, I see little difference between total adaptation and complete revolution. We change too much to last: even if it's still called America, it won't be at all the same thing as is now, which is in turn completely different than it was 150 years ago (though scarily similar to the Gilded Age).

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 08 May 03 - 04:04 PM

I was discussing this thread with a friend, who said (I'm paraphrasing him):

"The US has already lost its power. There's something very wrong there, which is why George W. Bush was able to get close enough in the election to steal it. I mean, think about it -- a cocaine abuser, an alcoholic who never held a job, didn't get a decent education, at least not properly, who deserted from his military requirement, who isn't very bright -- this man would never have been taken seriously as a presidential candidate if there wasn't something awfully wrong already."

Comments?

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: NicoleC
Date: 08 May 03 - 04:40 PM

Many Presidents in our history have had equally unsavory backgrounds, but it's all about the packaging. GWB isn't the first one that shouldn't even have been seriously considered as a candidate, let alone for a major political party.

If there's an indication of the weak state of democracy in the US, I think it lies more in the family history. GWB was hardly a political star with a long and illustrious career of service, but his father was. And ultimately, most Republicans seemed to support GWB as much for his father's reputation and name recognition as they might have for his views. I suspect England felt the same sense of unreality when Edward II died and left a son who clearly was not equal to his father's ability.

Gore, too, is a hereditary politician, like many others in Washington. Breaking into the political inner circle without large sums of money and family ties is becoming harder each election. We may get to vote, but almost always the choices are only for the members of a selected oligarchy that most citizens have no control over or access to. Potentially brilliant leaders who don't have those connections are left out in the cold; the few that break through (like Clinton) are contantly reviled for their inferior background, and just because someone (like Clinton) might have the ability to climb the politcal ladder, doesn't mean those abilities are synonymous with the abilities needed in great leaders.

Can you imagine yourself, even if struck with political brilliance tomorrow, ever managing to successfully become President?

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 08 May 03 - 04:50 PM

To NicoleC

Well stated, you have made some extremely valid points. You ask:

"Can you imagine yourself, even if struck with political brilliance tomorrow, ever managing to successfully become President?"

No, of course not. I also wouldn't want "political brilliance," as it is defined today.

Good points.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 May 03 - 05:22 PM

You raise some interesting points there, Claymore. I agree that English is the most influential language, and becoming more so. I think Canada may have a great future ahead of it, simply because there's still a lot of really good land and fresh water here...and not that big a population.

It depends, though, on any number of other factors which could affect us...like what the USA does or what China does in the next few decades. We'll have to play our cards carefully, I'm thinking.

The flexible political tradition you laud in the USA (quite rightly) was a further development of the British tradition, which has also been a very lasting and successful one. Canadian society is another offshoot of the British tradition, as are Australia and New Zealand.

But don't go telling the French that they are going to vanish into the sunset! :-) They are firmly convinced, and always have been, that they are the most sophisticated and civilized culture on the face of the Earth. As for the Germans, well, the Germans will adapt and endure. They're a tremendously capable people.

But the political structures? Those come and go.

Like you, Claymore, I look to the stars. Yes, I believe we will go there, and it's not too far off. I hope we are a united World when we do.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 May 03 - 05:36 PM

There is a statement that seems to be all too appropriate to this era. The statement is by a Venita Cravens, and who she is, I have no idea, nor have I been able to find out. Anyway,

"When small men cast long shadows, the sun is going down."

The Founding Fathers assumed an "informed electorate." But I wonder how an electorate can truly be informed when the news media is dedicated primarily to "info-tainment," and otherwise behaves like a rooting section for whatever conservative administration happens to be in, or a rumor-monger for scandal if the administration is of a more liberal bent. How informed can an electorate be if there are serious issues at stake, but more than fifty percent of the voters can't work up enough interest to get up off their butts and go vote?

That last. Perhaps I can answer my own question. One wonders what difference one's vote can make if there are no really genuine alternatives? Somebody once commented that "between a real Republican and a fake Republican, the real Republican will win every time."

I'll repost THIS LINK, just in case somebody missed it the first time around.

Don Firth