BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 08:26 PM

Well well, well...

Seems the Christian Right wants to be able to control life at both ends but couldn't care less about the middle???

Yup, get the friggin' kid born, then starve it, let it grow up in poverty surrounded by violence, takes it's education programs away, it after school; programs, it's breakfast program, it's, it's...

Yeah, where are all you Right to Lifers once the kid is born? Well, I'll tell ya' where the heck you are. Bitchin' about having to pay yer fair share of taxes which might, just might, provide the bare necessities to that newly born child..

Bunch of crybaby, washrag, evil, God-less hypocrits as far as I can see...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 09:32 PM

Notice how they never make an 85 year old grandmother in a persistent vegetative state whose nasty son just wants to get her out of the way for the inheritance, their "culture of life" cause of the moment? There are literally thousands of elderly people who are not able to make the decision for themselves to have feeding tubes removed--why not "save" their lives?

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 10:28 PM

Normal, GUEST... They, the Chrisian Right (haha) don't giave a danged about anything other than ripping off the working class.... And if they have to pull out one stupid, yet dividing, issue after another, they will do it... Any issue other than why it is that they are gettin' real freiggin' rich while every one else is going backwards...

This all come down to money....

... and they want it all.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST,Vinnie
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 12:01 AM

Amos. Invest in a remedial reading class. Reread the post. I didn't say you had anything to say about abortion. I didn't say YOU should substitute those words. I said I would use those words. You don't like what I post? Hey asshole, try to guess how much I care.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Peace
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 12:04 AM

Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker
Jimmy Swaggart
Falwell

Ho DARE you question the good hearts of these outstanding Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 12:10 AM

Auggie - Thanks for clarification. Typos suck, don't they? Now I'm not offended at all because, regarding 2000, you're absolutely right.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 04:41 AM

My Grandmother is at present, lying in a hospital waiting to die after signing a DNR order and refusing any and all medications and interventions with the exception of a little pain medication once in a while. She may have days or maybe a couple of weeks. She is refusing food for the most part and is in peace. Her children are with her, as are some of her grandchildren, great-grandchildren and yes, even two Great-Great-Grandchildren have been by. I'm many thousands of miles awa, sadly.

This situation with Terry makes me so profoundly sad. I wish to Christ she had one tenth the PEACE my Grandma is enjoying right now.

While I am not all that fond of GUEST's manner of expression, Guest has one point. If you are old and your kids stand to inherit something..ain't nobody standing in the way of pulling the plug on you. Same goes if you are in a coma and somebody needs your organs. "Brain Death" keeps getting redefined and redefefined by the Medical profession to the point where now, they can and do 'harvest' the organs of a 'brain dead' person while their heart is still beating. You'd think Right-to-lifers would be freaking out about THIS practice. Nope. They aren't. Just unborn babies, Terry Schiavo and anyone else that can't talk back. Maybe they don't speak up about these live 'harvest' of organs because there is a shortage of organs. I dunno. I really don't. I just know that who and and who isn't 'Brain Dead" medically & legally can vary depending on who you ask and of what possible use the person is Dead.

I think that most people's Living Wills are safe, despite Guests assertion that the Schiavo case means they are not. Remember, she had no written document. I do agree however, that none of us really have the facts of this case because both sides of this case keep spinning the facts. I do think the Husband has gone down a pretty rogh road and yes, he could have divorced her. the parents say he hasn't because he wants her 'money.' It makes my head spin.

I just heard on the news that Dubbya plans to step in on this. Hooboy. Here we go again. of course, they could just be playing up some rumour for the prupose of sucking me into watching the next half hour of news. Could be, could be!

This poor woman. Perhaps she and my Grandmother will walk hand in hand into Eternity together, and soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: ejsant
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 07:20 AM

Greetings All,

I am a devout believer in God and in the message Jesus brought to us. That said, I find it very confusing that one can contend to be a Christian and support war. After all, as far as I was always told the rule that Moses bought down from the Mount said simply "Thou shall not kill". I do not recall the version that stated "Thou shall not kill, except" nor do I recall this caveat in the Gospel. In terms of the teachings of Jesus I have always been under the impression that one should offer the right cheek when struck on the left. Another of Jesus' messages was that we should treat others as we would wish to be treated. I, for one, would not wish to be fired upon or bombed.

In the Christian message I learned and strongly believe in I was taught that we do not posses the wisdom to judge other people. That wisdom, in keeping with my belief, is God's and God's alone. I often times am deeply hurt by those that profess to be Christian and then judge my faith or the actions I undertake to celebrate it. I have yet to find where it is written that Jesus taught us to sustain life by measures born of man's (species not gender) science.

To my way of thinking this is not an issue that the Federal Government has any legal or moral basis on which to be involved. The Florida Courts have made a decision based upon existing law, testimony, and cogitation. I haven't read the transcripts of the Court's proceedings but I can only assume that the wish of this woman to not have her life sustained by these measures was clearly established to the Court's satisfaction. This intent, as far as I understand, is one of the litmus tests involved in making such a decision.

I would suggest that it is time those of us that feel that we should at the very least be allowed to die in accordance with our faith and wishes write our representatives in the Government and express our opinions. After all, Government now controls our life to a much greater extent then was ever intended by the founders of this Nation. I believe we should clearly indicate to these representatives that this issue is of such great importance that it will indeed effect our election decisions.

It is not surprising to me that cultures of conservative theologies fear our system of morays and norms and wish to preclude it from further influencing the World.

Peace,
Ed

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 07:48 AM

Last night on the news they showed results of a poll that indicated that the vast majority of Americans are on the side of Terri's husband. They had a breakout of Americans who considered themselves evangelical and the vast majority of them are on the side of Terri's husband.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:00 AM

A big *Amen*, Ed...

Couldn't have said it any better...

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:22 AM

So if the vast majority of Americans support having the feeding tube removed, why are the Dubya Repubs going into overdrive on this one, especially when they know they won't win in federal court either?

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:49 AM

Here is why the Republicans intervened, from today's Boston Globe:

"A one-page memo, distributed to Republican senators by party leaders, called the debate over Schiavo legislation ''a great political issue" that would appeal to the party's base, or core, supporters.

The memo singled out Senator Bill Nelson, Democrat of Florida, who is up for reelection next year and is potentially vulnerable in a state President Bush won last year.

''This is an important moral issue and the pro-life base will be excited that the Senate is debating this important issue," said the memo, which was reported by ABC News and later given to The Washington Post. ''This is a great political issue because Senator Nelson of Florida has already refused to become a cosponsor and this is a tough issue for Democrats."

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:58 AM

I find it depressing the way people seem so eager to come to such definite and hyperconfident attitudes about things like this,, and expressive them in such hate-filled ways.

People on both sides. The impression that comes across from a lot of peiople posting here, and writing in the media, behind the obvious disgreement on actual issues, there seems to be a shared appetite for a kind of fundamentalism on both sides. Is tat really what America is like these days?

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 09:09 AM

And here are some excerpts from an article in today's LA Times:

By Peter Wallsten, Times Staff Writer


CRAWFORD, Texas — Frenetic negotiations among congressional leaders, a special weekend session and a hastily arranged trip back to Washington by the president in the Terri Schiavo right-to-die case elevated a tragic personal issue into an extraordinary political drama.

But at bottom, the flurry of activity reflected an everyday fact of political life: When a powerful constituency cares passionately about something, all politicians — whether Republicans or Democrats — yearn to respond...

In this instance, the constituency was evangelical Christian conservatives. They played a pivotal role in reelecting President Bush and swelling GOP majorities in both houses of Congress in November, and they have become a voting bloc as essential to the GOP's new dominance as labor unions and minorities once were to the Democratic Party.

And the pressure on Bush and Republican congressional leaders to respond in the Schiavo case was all the greater because, during the first three months of the president's second term, social conservatives had become increasingly unhappy with what they saw as neglect of their concerns, such as banning same-sex marriage, in favor of issues pushed by corporations: changing bankruptcy laws, curbing medical malpractice awards and opening the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to oil and gas drilling.

"Our issues aren't on the front burner every day, but when they are on the front burner it's on high," said Louis P. Sheldon, chairman of the Traditional Values Coalition. "This proves that Terri Schiavo was a front-burner issue."

The very fact that the case of one woman in Florida and the family quarrel over her fate have reached the halls of Congress and captured the attention of the president reflects the power of the evangelical base in setting an agenda, said Richard Cizik, vice president of the National Assn. of Evangelicals. The Schiavo case, he said, showed that social conservatives were as consumed with the end of life as they were with life in the womb — and that the politicians were following their lead...

The case, first taken up by Florida Gov. Jeb Bush and anti-abortion activists who viewed it as an issue aligned with their beliefs, has become a cause for evangelical conservatives nationwide because they see assisted suicide and related procedures as moral and religious issues of overriding importance.

Their commitment to the cause has been intensified by rising anger toward Schiavo's husband and toward the Florida courts that sided with his position.

On Friday, the pressure on congressional Republicans escalated sharply when a state judge ordered the feeding tube removed and a federal judge ruled that Schiavo's parents had no legal standing in the federal court system.

The legislation that is expected to win emergency approval over the weekend would give the parents standing in federal court, though it would not compel a federal judge to take up the case.

As a backdrop to the dramatic weekend deliberations were the political implications for several key players who could not afford to ignore the desires of the party base.

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-Tenn.) is considered a candidate for his party's presidential nomination in 2008. Frist, a physician, pushed his support for action to the point of declaring — on the basis of television footage — that he thought Schiavo might recover.

Gov. Bush, who has said he would not run for president in 2008, is still considered a potential contender and has won accolades from evangelical leaders for his role in the case. He discussed the matter with his brother on Friday, and the president's decision to move aggressively could further solidify the governor's position with the party's religious base.

For House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, the case offered an opportunity to placate a key constituency and divert attention from his continuing ethics problems. DeLay had been avoiding attention much of last week but moved to the forefront of televised appearances Friday and Saturday.

He heralded the negotiations that led to a bipartisan agreement to let the special legislation come before the House and Senate on an emergency basis. And he took the opportunity to personally take on Schiavo's husband.

But the overriding reason for the flurry of activity — activity that could have little practical effect unless the federal courts agree to intervene — was the now-established importance of the voters who were demanding action.

Schiavo's case first entered the political arena in 2003, when Gov. Bush, besieged by petitions and e-mails from antiabortion activists, helped push through a state law to prevent doctors from removing Schiavo's feeding tube. The law was overturned.

When other legal options seemed to run out — and the Friday deadline for removing the feeding tube approached — the governor contacted the state's new Republican senator, Mel Martinez, to push the matter with Congress.

Social conservatives began lobbying the issue in Washington, but some exploded in anger late Friday when the House and Senate failed to reach an immediate agreement and seemed prepared to let the matter drop rather than disrupt their plans for the fast-approaching Easter recess. The message, as some conservatives saw it, was that GOP leaders were more interested in their personal political goals than the moral imperative of saving Schiavo's life.

"There are a lot of folks who helped create Republican majorities that were pretty disgusted with what went down, and the inescapable reality was that while they were dithering the tube got pulled," said Kenneth L. Connor, former president of the conservative Family Research Council and the lawyer who represented Gov. Bush in his efforts to keep Schiavo alive.

"That could have been avoided. The people who created this majority are interested in product, not process."

The maneuvering was followed over the weekend by President Bush in Texas.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 09:30 AM

Oops, sorry about the crap at the top of the post folks. Maybe a clone could take it out, and just leave the text excerpts?

McGrath, there is a lot of shrillness in any political debate surrounding right to privacy issues like this. This isn't the first time the US has suffered it's way through really painful debates on whether or not the state has the right to make medical treatment decisions on behalf of individuals who aren't able to make or communicate their medical decisions to their care providers.

This is a hot button issue for many of us who are going through, or already have gone through, the death of a family member that could possibly have been impacted by these federal shenanigans.

The Right to Life movement, and their Republican politicians they helped elect, want to see their very narrow, ignorant, Christian fundamentalist religious beliefs regarding "the sanctity of all life" (weeeelll....except maybe the lives of the people we don't like, like death row inmates, the Iraqi and Afghan peoples, old ladies, etc etc), and wish to impose it upon all American citizens. They are attempting to use this case to overturn the last 20 years of legislation at the state level regarding end of life care, and deny the right for the dying (and their legal guardians) to choose to refuse and/or withdraw medical treatment.

While the current bill being voted on in Congress this weekend somewhat limits the intervention to this single case, it also makes reference to others like it. The Senate refused to consider the House bill passed last week, that would have opened up the bill to any and all patients who are not able to make medical decisions for themselves.

Whether people want to accept the fact or not that the Right to Life movement has catapulted this major legislation onto the federal front in the last few days, which will end up depriving all US citizens of the right for their legal guardians to make health care decisions on their behalf without state and federal intervention, it is happening nonetheless. It is being pushed through as a religious bill on behalf of the fascist Republican Christian fundamentalist constituency too--Tom DeLay absolutely gloated over the fact that the vote in the House would take place on Palm Sunday, and preached hate towards the husband from the press conference podium yesterday, invoking all sorts of Christian fundamentalist symbolism.

In the wake of these bills having been proposed in numerous state legislatures around the country, after passage of this bill being proposed today, after the "Terri's Law" bill that Jeb Bush forced through the Florida legislature in 2003 (which was declared unconstitutional), and this extraordinary intervention by the federal legislative branch to overturn both state and federal judicial rulings in this case, I'd say people were idiots if they didn't think their right to medical privacy wasn't being invaded BIG TIME, and the right to make medical decisions on behalf of an incapacitated loved one for whom they are the legal guardian taken away from them by the Republican politicians so blatantly and cynically pandering to their Christian fundamentalist voter base.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 12:26 PM

It's a private family matter, and making a political footbll out of it should be a criminal invasion of privacy. It's bad enopugh the family is so split they had to wrassle in court.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 01:21 PM

What I mean is, building up these oversimplified pictures of the people who might disgaree with you - if they're agin you on one thing they have to be agin you on all the others. Being anti-abortion has to mean being pro-war and pro-death and against welfare benefits and so forth; or from the other side, an equivalent package of heterogeous views.

The idea being, I suppose, then you can relax because, since there is no point of contact, no shared values, there can be no real challenge involved.

But life isn't as simple as that. Oh yes, there are always going to be people who fit snugly into any ewe assemble - but that is never going to be tey whole picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 01:22 PM

What I mean is, there's this appetite for building up these oversimplified pictures of the people "on thebother side" - if they're agin you on one thing they have to be agin you on all the others. Being anti-abortion has to mean being pro-war and pro-death and against welfare benefits and so forth; or from the other side, an equivalent package of heterogeous views.

The idea being, I suppose, then you can relax because, since there is no point of contact, no shared values, there can be no real challenge involved.

But life isn't as simple as that. Oh yes, there are always going to be people who fit snugly into any stereotype we assemble - but that is never going to be the whole picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 02:01 PM

McG:

I think it is oversimplifying things to find people to be as simple as that.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 06:19 PM

Well, I'm sure glad that Osoma didn't circle this date to pull off another event 'cause no one would notice thru over the clamor...

Bush could care less about this woman... Heck, when he was governor of Texas, he oversaw the exewcution of more women than were executed in the other 49 states combined...

All Bush want is yet another emotionaly charged devisive issue to keep the peons at each other throats so they won't noticed that Bush and Boss Hog are raping and pilliaging the working class and the poor...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 06:35 PM

And its workin' a treat, ain't it Bobert?

Bush & The BuShites aren't entirely to blame for the situation-
the collossal stupidity of the U.S. Population- or at least 50% of it-
also factors into the equation.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 06:45 PM

Brucie said:

Why can't this lady be allowed to die in peace?

Terri Schiavo is dead. Has been for years. What is lying in a hospital bed in Florida is merely a damaged chemical apparatus with a historical connection to what was Terri Schiavo.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 07:09 PM

But ain't using this sad case as a weapon against Bush and his mob just playing precisely the same game?

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 07:54 PM

McGrath, I don't think anyone who is fighting to allow this woman to die is using that as a political tool against Bush or anyone else for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:07 PM

No, it was Bush who had to buddy up with the parents and it was Bush (Karl Tove) who say this as yet another major leage distration... These folks love distartion as much a magician needs to distract while he trick you...

This has nothing to do with this poor woman's body... The spirit has been gone for the last 15 years...

Yeah, all these Right-to-Lifers, the womans parent's inclided, see this as a wonderfull opportunity to stick it to the progressives and they are, by golly, going to do it...

That is the most sickening about this...

This poor woman's body has just become yet another Willie Horton for Karl Rove...

And on Palm Sunday??? What a collasal misunderstanding about life, death, forgiveness and Salvation. If Jesus were here in the flesh and observing this spectickle that the Repubs have pulled off today, He would puke...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Mar 05 - 08:35 PM

Amazing how liberals want this woman to die and are all for literally executing her and yet will whine about capital punishment for convicted murderers.

What a true double standard.

What true complete bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Boab
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 01:51 AM

A perspicacious and insightful intervention as always, Martin.....

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 04:51 AM

I am for her parents and siblings having a say on the one side, and her husband having a say on the other side. They can thrash it out in the courts.

Oh, wait, they did. For years.

Everyone else on both sides of the issue should stay the hell away.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: ejsant
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 05:39 AM

Greetings Martin,

I can't speak for the "Liberals" all I can do is express my opinion and I do not want this woman to die but rather wish for the Federal Government not to; a). intervene in such a personal circumstance, b). intervene in a matter that the State has already adjudicated in accordance with their laws, and c). promote what is clearly a minority held social philosophy.

The reality is that the vast majority of our federal legislators are lawyers and at the end of the day all this is going to do is require those of us that have already expressed our wishes formally to spend more money with….. you guessed it…… a lawyer to insure that our wishes are not circumvented by this new Federal Law and of course any subsequent amendments. Unfortunately, it seems that the legislative modus operandi here has been to create such a layered and convoluted system of laws so as to insure the intent is lost to the letter. Talk about job security!

I see this as just another attempt on the part of Government to further reduce our personal freedoms. As was once the basis of the concept of "Free Speech" with-in our system; the Government does not give us the thoughts we have that culminate in speech therefore they cannot regulate such speech, the Government does not give us our life and therefore cannot regulate our decision as to how it may end, assuming that we ultimately have a say in how it ends anyway.   

Peace,
Ed

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:43 AM

OK, song challenge!

The hospital staff is worried
And the family is hurried
But since she's not there to cry
Let her die, let her die, let her die

The woman is there no longer
She won't feel the pangs of honger
She's already gone, bye bye
Let her die, let her die, let her die...

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 12:50 PM

There seems a kind of contradiction between saying "this woman died years ago, there's nothing there" on the one hand, and "this woman needs to be released from her suffering" on the other. It seems to me that it is possible to argue a case for euthanasia on either head - but not on both at the same time.

"I don't think anyone who is fighting to allow this woman to die is using that as a political tool against Bush or anyone else" That may be true - but I'm not too sure that applies when it comes to the fighting by spectators, all the arguing about it by people who aren't directly involved.

The idea of a quasi-proprietorial dispute between members of a family as to who has the right to decide for one of its members is a really strange one.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 01:27 PM

Oh what a slippery slope. Remember when the US Supreme Court pronounced Dubya President? They said the identical thing then that (Senate Majority Leader) Frist says in this case: ... "a unique bill" that "should not serve as a precedent for future legislation." Yeah, right. It sets a precedent that will be argued as needed, from now on.

Two Sources

(Emphases mine, throughout)

About this bill, John Conyers, Jr writes:

..."But if this legislation was only about principle, why would the Majority party be distributing talking points in the other body declaring that "this is a great political issue" and that by passing this bill, "the pro-life base will be excited."?

   "If the president really cared about the issue of the removal of feeding tubes, why would he have signed a bill in Texas that allows hospitals to save money by removing feeding tubes over a family's objection?"

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 01:49 PM

McGrath, the Republicans have triggered a constitutional crisis here in the US by doing this slap down of the state judiciary in Florida.

Also, it is being approximated by many sources in the mainstream press that there are as many as 35,000 people in any given year in the US in a persistent vegetative state just like this woman. Many of their families will decide to have medical treatments withdrawn, including feeding and hydration tubes. This case matters profoundly, on many, many levels both medically and legally.

This is a much bigger deal than you can apparently wrap your head around.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 02:16 PM

McGrath, I don't really have any personal emotional investment in whether or not Ms. Schiavo is allowed to die myself, although it looks to me like the people here in the Mudcat who seem to be the most emotionally invested in this issue on the side of the husband have all gone through similar experiences themselves.

For me, I am concerned with the gradual stipping away of our rights that is and has been happening here in this country over the last few years. To the extent that this issue concerns me, it is because I do not want the government interfering in my right to make end of life decisions for myself. And this case surely does set many dangerous precedents for the stripping way of individual rights by the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 04:11 PM

Ah, yes, but who's rights? I worry for Mr. Schiavo's more than anybody else's...

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 04:11 PM

Sorry, that should have read WHOSE rights. Not thinking today, too many numbers to crunch. That must be why I'm numb, ha ha!

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 05:40 PM

Although I do agree that W. and the congress is wrong on this case, I don't think that it's part of the "grand conspiracy" to eventually take away our rights. I just think that if the Gov't is trying to make the vehicle of marriage sacred (which I believe in)then it should apply to this case also if her husband has said that Terri has communicated her wishes to him before her condition presented itself.
It doesn't matter what the husband has done in the fifteen years after the fact. The fact that he has still continued to be married to her and denied taking payoffs to let her continue to live proves to me that he truly cares about making Terri's last wish come true.


As I have said before, the two shall become one.....


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 05:51 PM

H, if your post is in any way a response to my last post, I have not suggested, or even inferred that there is a "grand conspiracy", to use your words, to take our rights away. But there is an undeniable trend in that direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:04 PM

It was not directed at you Carol.




Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:12 PM

The implications of all this go WAY beyond what happens to this poor woman. The conservatives are milking the situation to get leverage on other matters concerning other 'control of body' issues. They want to be able to 'shop' for sympathetic judges, rather than be subject to a plain law that might not favor them. ...So they got congress to put it in the judicial system!

I don't doubt that many are sincere about their concern, but there MUST come a point at which 15 years of the doctors who are on the scene saying "there IS no hope" will prevail. They are trying to use 'opinions' of some who have looked at home videos to bolster the idea that "she 'seems' to be responsive"....*sigh*....

Some people just want certain facts to be true, so they gerrymander what the hear & see to MAKE it true.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:23 PM

(I listened to the House debate live last night....if you compare the compassionate, reasonable summary Steny Hoyer made to the slanted, sanctimonious little emotion-tugging bit of crap by Tom DeLay, you'd see what is passing for reason in this)

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:24 PM

what, me? opinionated? naaawwwwwwwwwwww!

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:31 PM

And has anyone pointed out that the conservatives have been on and bandwagen for marriage (especially between a man and a woman) for some time now and here when "marriage" doesn't fit nicely into their little ploy to grasp yet more power by keeping their base charged up, it don't mean jack????

Again, yet another supreme case of hipocrisy...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:04 PM

Just because bad people with bad motives may support something doesn't mean that thing is a bad thing.

Just because Hitler was a vegetarian doesn't mean that eating meat has to be a matter of principle for all decent people.

As I'm understand it, what's involved here is a kind of final appeal process, and the issue is whether it is right to ensure that the lady is dead before that appeal process can be concluded. That sounds like jumping the gun to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:33 PM

No, McG, I wouldn't say keeping someone alive is a bad thing... But from all has come out from the medical community on this woman's condition, her brain is so damaged that there is 0% of any chance of recovery. She went way too long with oxygen and given the 15 years that her body has been in this state, there is good reason to think the spirit has longs moved on... If that is the case then keeping the body alive borders on tinkering around with stuff we usually leave up to God....

Yeah it's tough, especially when, and I hate to sound paranoid here, the right wing in this country has used every tear-jerkin, devisive issue it can to centralize power... I think that is what makes me angriest about this. Here these same folks will strap someone into an electric chair and literally make their heads catch on fire and explode and then say they are so friggin' pro-life...

Meanwhile back at in Florida, the scene of the crime where George W. Bush's lawyers highjacked out democracy, a poor husband, who has gone the extra mile in his wife's behalf, is being told he doesn't matter???

This very sorry story should have never been able to find the light of day... Had it been my Judy in the two months perceeding her death in 1996 I would be serving time in the penitentury right about now for murder... I sho nuff would...

Like I have said over and over... When you have gone thru hospice with someone you love, it changes yer perspective forever...

I have seen the clips of her husband where he was taking this women's body out of the hospital to places trying to get her back... It isn't as if this guy just went out and said "Heck with her"... I was watchin' some film the other night where he had taken her someplace long after she sustained her brain damage and I was thinkin' that he has certainly been thru a lot... My Judy lived 17 months after her diagnosis. The first 12 months we had hope and then things turned poorly. The last 5 months were tough on the three of us: Judy, her mom and me. The last 2 months??? Oh, my God... Where were this woman's parents when the husband was taking her this pl;ace ot that place. No, we don't see them in the story... But we see this dedicated man. Even a year later he is still fighting to get his wife back... For folks who haven't been thru this a year is like a century...

I am 100% sure that if this woman's spirit could communicate it would be saying, "Quit embarrassing me and let my body go."

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:41 PM

McGrath, the case has alread been taken all the way to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court decided that the matter should be handled by the state courts, which had already heard the case several times. There is nothing premature about this case.

On the other hand, this case...

Baby born with fatal defect dies after removal from life support

...in which life support was removed by the hospital against the wishes of the mother in this case, because of a law in Texas that allows hospitals to remove life support in cases where the family can't pay the medical expenses, is something we should be upset about.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 09:53 PM

bobert, I hear you're married to a man.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 09:58 PM

Did you hear that Marvin's wife left him?

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 09:59 PM

Sorry. My apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 Mar 05 - 10:05 PM

Ebbie, Ebbie, Ebbie.

My what vaginal dryness does to the female brain.