'English Country Dances', Please

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:17 PM

I blame Ian A Anderson for introducing me to Yasmin Levy and Natacha Atlas, via the latest issue of fRoots, but I went out a bought a CD of each artist. Yasmin Levy leads me into further exploring the medieval Ladino/Judeo-Spanish songs, not very English (:-D), I know, but I've always been fond of exploration. Natacha Atlas sings in Arabic, Hindi, English and French and includes diverse elements such as folk, drum & bass, Parisian vaudeville, R&B, ambient dance, pop, rap and film music. Gawd, it just occurred to me, WAV isn't going to get any of this :-D

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:18 PM

did you say adult males...add sexist pig to WAV's credentials

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:32 PM

That's silly, DS - if you cared, you wouldn't encourage a female to hitchhike would you?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: irishenglish
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:41 PM

I sure would WAV, depending on where. Ultimately if you are hitching, you make the final decision-you don't like the way someone looks who slows down, run. My sister hitch hiked in Egypt, by herself, and had no problems. I picked up a female hitchhiker from France when I was in Ireland once, and we had a great time chatting, and btw, she never felt threatened, and told me as such. That really is a bold statement to make.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:45 PM

Sorry WAV I was hitchhiking around Europe and The Middle East when you weren't even a gleam in your father's eye (you appear to forget I am somewhat older than you), and your reply to me is the perfect example of your nasty patronising attitude towards the women on these threads, well guess what? If nothing else did it, this did, put us in oppostite corners, bad move Wav....

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:50 PM

What about females playing tennis, WAV?

Anyway, quoting your own tired & specious rhetoric isn't an answer to my point about Scots living in England and English living in Scotland, or anyone choosing to live anywhere else other than the place of their birth. Fact is, there isn't an answer because your entire concept of cultural purity is complete and utter bollocks & doesn't work on any level whatsoever. Not only is it bollocks, WAV, but it's an absolute insult to those who have chosen to live where they do, and put down roots, er, much as you have over here, and much as your parents did when they moved to Australia.

I note the recent caveat in your opinion, which is a good sign on the whole but what's the use of opinions if they're so completely unworkable & disrespectful to humanity as a whole? Not so long ago (see here 08 Jul 06 - 07:07 AM) you were arguing against same sex parenting. This seems to have vanished from your central on-line manifesto, but that could be a tactical withdrawal rather an admission of error.

Ditch the hoo-hah, WAV - life's too short & humanity too diverse; accept, respect & for Christ's sake just chill - summer's here, the fish are jumpin' & the cotton is high...

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:52 PM

Actualy, I'm with WAV on this one. Hitch hiking is very common in Israel, but I feel uncomfortable when my girl friend or any of my female relatives hitch hike. I'm sure that most of the time nothing would happen, but you never know. If a girl is with someone else it's a lot safer, but I would strongly advise against doing it alone, ESPECIALLY in the Middle East and Russia.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:53 PM

and the livin' is easy..... George Gershwin (American you know...:-D)

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:55 PM

That somone sure as hell wouldn't be WAV, in my opinion, and I'm speaking of over 40 years go in my case. Now I've found other paths and roads to explore, mostly musical.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:22 PM

As I've said on my myspace Blog, Sedayne, I'd rather females play table-tennis, as lawn tennis puts too much strain on the racket-arm. However, I'm quite happy for the next Archbishop of Canterbury to be a female. As for your "same sex parenting" query, I stand by what I've said in poem #88. Also, some of you are slipping into recalcitrance, I feel.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:30 PM

You'd rather have females stay in the kitchen, I think, so cease your sexist prattling, if I was ever driven to play tennis (which thank the lord I'm not), I would, and never mind your stupid nonsense.

Same sex parenting.... I fully support it, a loving family is a loveing family regardless of the gender of the parents

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:42 PM

I'd rather females play table-tennis, as lawn tennis puts too much strain on the racket-arm.

I'm sure Lindsay Davenport and Amelie Mauresmo et al would have something to say about that.

As for your "same sex parenting" query, I stand by what I've said in poem #88

In this, dare I say, as in the rest of what you write about, you've got no experience too, right?

Also, some of you are slipping into recalcitrance, I feel

An online dictionary defines recalcitrance as Marked by stubborn resistance to and defiance of authority or guidance. Might I rest my case, o recalcitrant one?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:46 PM

.....are slipping into recalcitrance...
Oh and now WAV sets himself up a some sort of authority. You self-righteous, pompous arse.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 03:48 PM

He is an authority on nothing except himself and his godawful poetry and his racist nationalism cloaked in a so called love of all things English. WAV your comrades at the BNP, the ENP and Justice for England must be very proud of you.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: irishenglish
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:09 PM

Let's go back to thread here, upon looking at this again.WAV, you have chosen not to comment on Chris Parkinson's excellent post from two days ago regarding your um....question....statement, whatever it was. I suggest you read that, as his point is quite valid.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:17 PM

Racism, DS, is where someone says they are all like this or that - which I have never done. I've never heard of the ENP - I'm not a member of any political party, but I was once contacted by the English Democrats who also promote "positive nationalism". Sorry I'm not sure who it was, but somewhere on mudcat someone mentioned falling into a WAV said it/it MUST be wrong trap - that's roughly what I meant by "slipping into recalcitrance". On the other hand, Sedayne, very critical my, mentions playing the tabor and pipe, and I remark the truth that I would like to hear it - at least trying to be reasonable and frank. To DS: are you also happy with the idea of the next Archbishop of Canterbury being a female?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:18 PM

Irish, thanks for pointing out Chris P's post. His point cannot be argued with, it's short, sweet and very much to the point. I await with bated breath for WAV's answer. I'll sit and knit if you don't mind. WAV I'm knitting an Arran sweater, not very English I know, but my granddaughter did make a special request :-D

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:39 PM

Re: Chris P - yes, my title could mean dances as events, or the variety of English country dances that may be danced at any given event. But it seems from my late Godmother, and others on this thread, that such terminology was used and understood until about 30 or years ago.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:48 PM

You meant this thread title as the event, NOT the dance itself. Nice attempt at weaseling
You said:
"As I've said here, we, in England, do not have ceilidhs (Scotland) or ceilis (Ireland) - we have English Country Dances."

and as Ia nd others have said, we have ceilidhs (the event)as well

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:51 PM

So what your 'late Grandmother said' constitutes rigorous academic research?

Oh dear...

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:53 PM

For someone who allegedly has a degree, his research is sadly lacking/non-existent

Chris P's question "Wherein lies your point/problem? " remains un-answered

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:02 PM

Def Shepard, that's because Chris P's question presumes a certain level of actual dance experience and knowledge, on the part of the respondent. Apart from bandying a few terms around, probably harvested from Wikipedia, WAV clearly doesn't really understand the distinction between the various types of English dance, how they developed, how they attract different kinds of participants, etc.

But he's still here to teach us all...

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:07 PM

I wonder if we might direct WAV's attention to the EFDSS site, Ruth? But there again, THAT might also be a total waste of time.'late Grandmother said'is probably far more reliable than Wikipedia, from which I can quite well believe some of WAV's terms have beem lifted (ooops sorry, harvested :-D )

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:09 PM

I'll tell you, Ruth, I wish I had an eighth of Chris Parkinson and John Kirkpatrick's dance experience. Every day in every way I'm still learning (can you say that WAV?)

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Agnes Mirren
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:16 PM

This here Mr Walkaboutsverse knows nothing about English country dance, probably never danced in his life, unlike dear Mr John Kirkpatrick with whom I had the pleasure of working, some years ago.

Jump at the Sun

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:24 PM

"As I've said here, we, in England, do not have ceilidhs (Scotland) or ceilis (Ireland) - we have English Country Dances."...Okay, DS, for clarity, please add the word "should" - and others on this thread have agreed that we DID, until about 30 years ago.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:29 PM

And thanks for using "English country dance" Agnes, rather than the Scottish term "ceilidh", or the Irish term "ceili".

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:31 PM

I add nothing to what I have said, WAV, so dream on, and "others on this thread" have agreed to nothing of the sort, so cease and desist with your attempts at divide and conquer

and yes we have ceilidhs in England, try reading instead of cut and pasting, do your research, and STOP invoking what your dead relatives believed, it's NOT viable research!
Personally I agree with the poster, Guest, Agnes Mirren.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:34 PM

I believe Agnes Mirren used the term for the dance, not the event, so quit trying to use other people to "prove" whatever point you're trying to make. (I'm waiting for the pin to drop)

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Agnes Mirren
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:40 PM

Thank you for reminding me, Mr Walkaboutsverse, ceilidh is good term as well, I see it on a number of announcements and posters for such events. The delightful Mr. Kirkpatrick (who knows far more than you, Mr Walkaboutsverse) uses the term ceilidh in the following, the rest maybe found on his website.

"Mr Gubbins' Bicycle is John Kirkpatrick's five-piece ENGLISH CEILIDH BAND, using the name of a tune he wrote many years ago after buying a bike from a certain Mr Gubbins! They play English tunes for English dances in an English style."
(CAPITAL letters are mine)

As you can see, Mr. Walkaboutsverse I can cut and paste every bit as well as you :-)

Subject: Date my ceilidh
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:56 PM

No apologies for the attempted semi-hijack - I thought it was more interesting than the main topic of this discussion.

I saw the Albion Dance Band play a ceilidh at Trinity School Croydon, at Christmas...

1974?
Fits best with my other (vague) recollections, but seems a bit early for the ADB
1975?
1976?
Seems a bit late (I hadn't caught on to punk by Christmas 1976, but I'm fairly sure I'd stopped wearing the shirt I remember wearing* that night)

Christmas 1975 seems most likely, but I'd prefer it to have been 1974. Any thoughts?

*It was a memorable shirt. It was printed with a 'Dougal'** motif and had flared sleeves. I wore it a lot. Sometimes close friends pretended they weren't with me.

**The dog.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:02 PM

I decided to do a small search to see if the term ceilidh is being used at ENGLISH folk festivals, and sure enough the Chippenham Folk Festival are having a number of CEILIDH bands performing. Hmm it seems that the term is being used a fair bit; isn't it? Time to get with the programme me thinks WAV :-D

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Sue Allan
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:12 PM

(sorry, seem to have wiped my cookie in attempt to clean my computer)

Since WAV is always unwilling to accept that styles of song, dance or terms for the same evolve over time, and always have done, and refuses to address Chris Parkinson's eminently sensible points (made from a love and deep knowledge of that which he speaks) - would it not be better to agree, and accept, that WAV is only here to wind everyone up and boost his own ego ... and just IGNORE him?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: irishenglish
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:15 PM

So, according to the rules of walkaboutsverse, volume 979, stanza 12, or what have you, where does someone like Michael McGoldrick fall in to your equation of Englishness? Born in Manchester, but with obvious Irish heritage. Is he Scottish when he plays with Capercaillie? Is he Irish when he plays with Lunasa? Is he English when he plays with Kate Rusby? If he plays at a festival does he have to produce a passport for what country he is representing? Oh that's right, no of course not, because that's all bull-he's just a damn fine musician capable of playing with anyone. See, you just don't get it-applying rules to what you feel is proper English music, or even, what the proper name of a gathering of dance music should be called, you're not just missing the boat, you're missing the departure date, along with your ticket. Your rigid guidelines have no reasoning whatsoever. Yes, you can sit back and think, oh I wish I were in the England of 100 years ago, it would have been so much nicer. But, its 2008, you can't. You can't change the way music evolves, you can't change history, you can't change what you perceive is wrong with a music form that has thrived and will thrive without you. Lord knows what you think of The Imagined Village, just the kind of multi-cultural band that on the one hand, you should profess to admire for what they have done, but on the other, revile because it doesn't stick to artificial rules that you think apply. When I think about all the rules you govern yourself by, as to what this or that should be called, I just say to myself, sad, very sad.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:17 PM

Sue, he strikes me as being a teribly lonely person, who could best use his time in actually researching the subjects he claims to know about. I'm still waiting patiently for his reply to Chris Parkinson's question

a reminder:
Chris P's question "Wherein lies your point/problem?"

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:19 PM

To use a VERY good English term, WAV, you, me old china, are batting on a VERY sticky wicket! :-D

and it's goodnight from her!

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,E J Thribb
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:45 PM

POEM 2 OF 285: FOR NOEL EDMUNDS

Pink and yellow creature with sand filled bottom
Bounces back to its upright position
With the same inane look and vacuous response
As when I punched it last time
However hard I hit you won't you ever lie down?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 28 May 08 - 03:50 AM

What it boils down to is this: we have a word, "ceilidh", which has been established in its current English usage for decades (I can vouch for it being well established in the early 1970s). It is known even outside the folk fraternity as meaning a folk dance event. Within the folk world, it has additional layers of meaning which convey the types of dances, style of dancing and style of music to expect. It's a useful word.

WAV doesn't like this word because it has been borrowed from another language. However the strength and flexibility of the English language comes from its willingness not only to invent new words but to borrow from other languages - the dictionary is full of such words.

I can see where he's coming from, and if this discussion had been taking place before "ceilidh" became established in the English language I might have had more sympathy with his point of view, but the fact is that he's at least 40 years too late. This horse has long bolted.

Not only does he want us to stop using a single well-established word which has a specific meaning, he wants to replace it with three words which already mean something entirely different.

And with respect to his godmother, her experiences of doing "English Country Dances" at school in, at a guess, the 1920s or 30s tell us nothing about the actual live tradition, then or now. Whatever her adult contemporaries were doing on Saturday nights in the village hall, I'd lay money they didn't call it an "English Country Dance".

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Nick
Date: 28 May 08 - 10:19 AM

I thought it strange that his godmother was called Howard - but perhaps I misread that post.

>>The information was from my LATE-Godmother, RIP, Howard....

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 May 08 - 10:29 AM

Surly Howard has said it all and very clearly?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 May 08 - 11:13 AM

I agree, Les: at least Howard was accurate - but I disagree with him (and Tony Blair, e.g.) that there's no going back to past ways; Blair, born in Scotland, also said: "We don't want a return of English nationalism"...oh, yes we do - WITHOUT any imperialism this time.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: irishenglish
Date: 28 May 08 - 11:26 AM

So he was accurate in disagreeing with you?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Veronica N. Footprint
Date: 28 May 08 - 11:27 AM

Ever wondered what became of the Molecatcher's Unplugged Apprentice? She vanished in suspicious circumstances on the 15th of May, the same day as Def Shepard first appeared. Could they be by any chance related?

Watch out for those trolls & shape-shifters, Walkaboutsverse - creatures of darkness the lot of them!

Veronica

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 May 08 - 11:54 AM

Will do Veronica, thanks.
To IE: Yes - but I added that we can and should re-establish the English country dance (instead of the ceilidh, which has largely, quite recently, replaced it). I, by the way, mainly via satellite, probably enjoy Scottish music as much as most of you - BUT we in England do have OUR OWN good culture, which, sadly, is being pushed more-and-more into the background; and, as I've said here, when people lose their own culture, society suffers.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:07 PM

a 'guest", read those who will not take responsibility for their posts, says of me.

'Ever wondered what became of the Molecatcher's Unplugged Apprentice? She vanished in suspicious circumstances on the 15th of May, the same day as Def Shepard first appeared'

Come out in the open and face me instead of hiding behind an obviously fake name. You obviously won't do that will you?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:26 PM

No we don't need nationalism, that's another thing wars have been fought over, and quite frankly it's simply not worth it, and I don't care WHOSE nationalism it is.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:28 PM

WAV, please find one documented instance of the event being called an English country dance.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:39 PM

To Volgadon: my late Godmother told my they did "English country dancing" at school. Or read this.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:42 PM

Now this is interesting

Cambridge University English Country Dance Club

This Might Be Useful

English Country Dance is a social dance form. That's easy to remember:-)

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 28 May 08 - 12:44 PM

English country dance is the dance form. the ceeilidh is the event at which English country dance is, perhaps, performed