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'English Country Dances', Please
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Subject: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 05:44 AM As I've said here, we, in England, do not have ceilidhs (Scotland) or ceilis (Ireland) - we have English Country Dances. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 25 May 08 - 06:06 AM And? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: The Borchester Echo Date: 25 May 08 - 06:13 AM . . . and eCeilidh. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 06:43 AM And, Volgadon, it's good that we now accept the imperialism of some of our forebears was wrong; but it's bad that we are turning more-and-more away from our own good English cultural heritage, which includes ENGLISH COUTRY DANCES, or eECD, thanks, Diane. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Compton Date: 25 May 08 - 06:43 AM I think that's a bit sweeping, Walkaboutsverse, I go to Ceilidhs in England....and not many many like it to be calloed English Country Dances.....in fact anything but!! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Caller Date: 25 May 08 - 06:46 AM What are you on about? Is this the start of another massively long thread? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 07:01 AM And that's the problem, Compton - my late Godmother told me that at her English school they did learn one or two Scottish dances, BUT at least 90% of what they danced was, indeed, English Country Dance; and, when I mentioned the Scottish Gaelic word "Ceilidh", she had no idea what I was "on about" (Caller). And thread-length is not the issue - restoring our own good English culture and values is. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 07:54 AM It, "Walkaboutsverse", was booted down into the BS section, Poetess - and, in case you're interested, currently involves discussion on free-verse and Vogon poetry. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Bonzo3legs Date: 25 May 08 - 08:01 AM Nothing wrong with the British Empire, when the sight of a British gunboat put the fear of god up trouble makers. Yes, we would always do English Country Dancing on Empire Day at school. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 08:14 AM I don't like any imperialism, Bonzo, but I agree with you in some respects. Poem 212 of 230: REMEMBER THEM? Back when we became defenders (We have plainly been attackers), Defenders' blood, sweat and years Were paid to keep a good home-way - A way yet to be part stealth-blown, As mass immigration gained-sway And as we slipped as maintainers. From walkaboutsverse.741.com |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: purple dinosaur Date: 25 May 08 - 04:24 PM 'English Country Dances' a) is a bit of a mouthful b) sounds odd in an English (especially rural) context, and c) has connotations of patrician urbanites playing at being peasants. These days, 'ceilidhs' happen in England, & are mostly jolly (preferable to ECD's!)...Down here, indeed, the word has taken on a life of its own! Must admit to being uncomfortable with the Gaelic spelling, as I understand the word has a different significance in a Scottish or Irish (esp. Gaelic/Irish-speaking) context, so I tend to write the word 'kaley'. e.g. 'Wishing I was at a kaley in Chippenham....' Barney |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Chris P. Date: 25 May 08 - 05:03 PM The term 'English Country Dance' refers to the particular form of a dance, in the same sense as Polka or Waltz. Usually by the end of the 18thC it was longways. You once did this at a Ball, Hop, Dance or in the kitchen or the mud. In France you may have done it at a Bal. You didn't do it at an 'English Country Dance' any more than you did a Polka at a polka or a Foursome reel at a foursome reel. But a 'dance' could refer to the actual event, and everyone would know what they were going to. If you go to a dance now it could be anything, hence the very recent requirement for a further definition. So it has become customary in England to use the (not stolen, as they haven't been alienated) terms ceilidh/eceilidh to mean a dance where you may expect not just lively ECDs, but Polkas, Waltzes, etc, and have some good fun. This will be understood to be a different sort of event from a Country Dance or a Dance 4Dancers. Wherein lies your point/problem? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 05:07 PM And would your kaley/English Country Dance have mostly/all English dances and tunes, Barney?..as with my late Godmother and Bonzo, above. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 May 08 - 05:20 PM So how many other currently used English words should be abandoned? What's the English word for pyjamas? or curry? or caravan? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 05:26 PM It seems not long ago, McGrath, it definitely was English Country Dance - mouthful or not. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 25 May 08 - 05:39 PM WAV, you seem to like this source, you quote from it all the time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Country_Dance |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Howard Jones Date: 26 May 08 - 04:33 AM The term "ceilidh" in its modern English sense began to emerge at about the same time, but independently from, the English country music revival. Then and now, it defines an attitude rather than a particular type of music or dance. Just as eskimos have many words for snow, in the dance world the word has specific connotations. Both a ceilidh and D4D may include English Country Dances, but the style in which they're danced and the approach of both the dancers and musicians are very different. For those who care about such things, the terminology provides a shorthand code which lets them know what sort of event to expect, and whether or not it's for them. For those who don't, like WAV's godmother, it's all just snow. Simply referring to "English Country Dance" does not convey the same information about style and approach. Was "ceilidh" the best term to adopt? It does sometimes cause confusion, especially for expat Scots who may turn up in kilts, but on the whole its English meaning is now generally understood. Back then, the word was already in use, and it gradually adapted to acquire its current specific meaning in English usage. We were less concerned about such cultural niceties back then, and we didn't have the benefit of WAV's deep experience and profound wisdom to guide us. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Les in Chorlton Date: 26 May 08 - 04:42 AM What does the phrase "Barn Dance" convey? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 26 May 08 - 04:45 AM The information was from my LATE-Godmother, RIP, Howard, and when she went to school in England, English folk music, song and dance were common in most schools - rather than in just a few rural schools, as now, sadly. For English Country Dance we should not use a Scottish Gealic word; just as an Italian should not be telling us how to play out favourite sport. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Compton Date: 26 May 08 - 05:27 AM Actually. I don't dislike English Folk Dance...which curiously is the name of a small organisation I once heard of! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 26 May 08 - 05:36 AM SOME ENGLISH DANCES English Country Dance, Clog Dance (Lancashire/Cheshire, Durham/Northumberland), Step Dance, Morris Dance (Cotsworld, Molly, Border, N.W. Clog Morris), Yorkshire Longsword, N.E. Rapper, Maypole Dancing, Helston Furry Dance (Cornwall), Great Wishford Grovely-Day Dance (Wiltshire), Whalton Baal-Fire (Circle) Dancing (Northumberland), 'Obby 'Osses (Cornwall and Somerset) From davidfranks.741.com |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 26 May 08 - 05:52 AM Some English dance*S*. Obviously not an event. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 26 May 08 - 06:20 AM To Volgadon: Compton had just mentioned "English Folk Dance", so I gave a list, with English Country Dance atop; but from what I've heard, the Sidmouth Folk Festival is one "event" where folks do indeed get quite a few of them. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Marje Date: 26 May 08 - 06:33 AM A ceilidh is not a particular dance, it's an event. No one ever called such events "English contry dances" - this referred to the individual dances, not the occasion. I think old usage would probably just have been " a dance"; during the mid-20th century revival, such occasions were often called "Barn Dances". More recently, a bit of a split has developed between "Folk dancing" (as practised by EFDSS) and "English ceilidh" which is looser, livelier, more energetic, and often includes more non-English dances. No matter what your late godmother used to call her dances, WAV, there are now dances called ceilidhs in England. I was at one on Sunday. It wasn't called an "English country dance", it was called a "ceilidh". QED. Pity about the crazy gaelic spelling, but there you go, English is full of words from other languages. We'll cope. Marje |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 26 May 08 - 06:48 AM But there is this recent trend in England, Marje, and I don't like it - the African American way of worshipping is better than our old English way, Asian food is better to go out for than English food, Swedes and Italians suddenly know more about football than us, we use the Scottish word for a country/barn dance, etc. As an apple cart, modern England needs upsetting - it's gone too far. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Les in Chorlton Date: 26 May 08 - 06:50 AM I'm with the People's Front for Inglish Kaylee Dancing on this one. Don't be misled by those in the People's Front for English Kaylee Dancing, EI, EI O yes. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 26 May 08 - 07:04 AM First of all, it shouldn't matter where the way you worship comes from, it should matter if you feel that it is God's (or the Gods') way. I think I'm catching echoes of G&S (for he himself has said it, it's greatly to his credit) as well as the Padre in Farrell's the Siege of Krishnapur. Second, most traditional English fare isn't terribly exciting. Eating it at home is one thing, but for going out, Asian food is funner. Besides, this is no new trend, English cuisine has been affected by Asia for over 500 years. Thirdly, English has thousands of loan words. Last, but not least, ECD reffers to a style of dancing, not to an event. Read Georgian and Victorian literature, they never GO to an ECD, but they do dance them. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 26 May 08 - 07:11 AM I love the world being multicultural and I want English culture to remain a part of that, and English country dances to remain a part of that - I just enjoyed watching and listening on Saturday, at Hexham, in fact. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 26 May 08 - 07:20 AM But they are being danced, WAV. You can insist on calling the actual even an ECD, just be aware that it is NOT a traditional title by any means. BTW, what is the year you judge English culture by, I mean the cutoff year. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: CupOfTea Date: 26 May 08 - 09:22 AM Would it scandalize the English purist to know that English Country Dance is cherished over here in the colonies? It's my soul dancing, part of my ethnic heritage, and my musical love. Ceilis here (US Midwest) tend to be dances within the Irish or Scottish ethnic enclaves. "Set dances" are taught at Irish centers, but we're not so lucky to have "English centers" as a parallel, havning to make do with CDSS dance camps as the closest approximation in the US. It's difficult to see our English Country Dance group here dwindle with age, and have a hard time attracting new dancers. I think that joy of the specialness of this one group of dances, with it's rich history is something that needs...something... to inspire a wider range of enthusiasts. Our group tried to have some sort of tie-in when the local professional theatre presented the play of PRIDE AND PREJUDICE. We got nowhere in offering dance coaching, nor putting flyers for our dances out at the play, or even any reassurance that the dancing in the play would be near accurate. In the general folk music community, a "barn dance" can mean a whole range of dance styles: English Country Dance, New England style contradance, New England style or Southern style or Western style squares, circle dances/mixers. Some will be specificly a square dance or a contra dance, but if you do a variety of 'em you tend to see the same folks at the whole range (as well as a random polka dance or swing dance or waltz dance) Anyrate, if you've got some specific good ideas in how to promote the traditional version of English Country Dance, particularly to the young who could be carrying this well to the future, I'd be delighted to hear it! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 26 May 08 - 09:48 AM Your second last paragraph sounds correct to me, this afternoon, CupofTea - with barn dancing being of a wider range than English country dance. I had little interest at the time, but I think it was American square dancing that I learnt at high-school in the suburbs of a rapidly Americanising Sydney, Australia. Offer free scones and tea to re-fuel the dancers..?! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 May 08 - 10:05 AM "just as an Italian should not be telling us how to play out favourite sport. Which Italian would that be? I take it you mean "grumbling"... |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Howard Jones Date: 26 May 08 - 10:06 AM WAV. I understand your point about borrowing a gaelic word, but as several others besides myself have pointed out, "English Country Dance" is not synonymous with "Ceilidh", even in its modern English usage. Over more than 30 years "ceilidh" has acquired a meaning in England which is rather different from its original Scottish one, and it's probably a bit too late to try to introduce another word now. Besides, borrowing words (including some from gaelic - take "whisky" for example) is one of the great strengths of the English language - something I should have thought you were in favour of. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: greg stephens Date: 26 May 08 - 12:24 PM Personally, I call such events barn dances. But I have no problem with ceilidh.Nothing wrong with having two words for the same thing. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 26 May 08 - 12:52 PM They say that repetition is the mother of learning, so let's repeat it once more for WAV. ECD is not an event, but a style of dance. I think you'll find that it is 'untraditional' (if you'll pardon the phrase) to go to an event and dance just those. As Chris P. said, you would dance a bunch of different things. Dances used to be one of the most important social functions, one of those few occasions when you could interact fairly freely with members of the opposite sex. An evening of nothing but ECD would get monotonous. Also, different dances offered different interaction. With your boasts about distinctions in undergrad. anthropology, you should know that social context is all important. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: CupOfTea Date: 26 May 08 - 02:20 PM ahem " An evening of nothing but ECD would get monotonous. " I vastly disagree. If you've got an inept prompter or a dull program of dances, you can evoke monotany, but changing style or nationality of dances is far from the only way to have variety. Even with less than stellar bands, there are yet a goodly range of feels to the dances that can make for a varied and interesting program. If one is ever given the delight of dancing to an evening of English Country Dances with Bare Necessities, that alone would show how absurd the above quote is. I've danced to them several times;the feeling of being carried into the dance by the music is bliss. You seldom get bored by bliss. Just sayin. Joanne in Cleveland |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 26 May 08 - 02:35 PM Well would you look at this....... Energetic Ceilidh Dancing in England No ceilidhs in England? HA! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 26 May 08 - 02:43 PM but it's bad that we are turning more-and-more away from our own good English cultural heritage Is this the most militant WAV thread yet I wonder? Lots of dancing in Blackpool this weekend; we went So when are you going to settle with the reality of the modern multi-cultural UK, WAV instead of persisting with this twisted bilious risible vision you have of English cultural heritage? And what the fuck is Heritage anyway? To me, heritage is the old pit-wheels sited on the verges & greens of long-redundant colliery villages that escaped the D-list, or some other such corporate schlock which no one gives a shit about other than some patronising council types trying to give something back to the community. Things either is or they ain't, and those who dance can do whatever dance they want to do, presumably. Where's the problem with that? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 26 May 08 - 02:44 PM WAV said just as an Italian should not be telling us how to play out favourite sport. (smacks of racism to me) I presume you mean "our" and who is this our you speak of, and a small point, the Italians play football some much better than the English |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 26 May 08 - 02:46 PM Yes, DS, no ceilidhs, please, we're English!...love national differences. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: GUEST Date: 26 May 08 - 02:49 PM WalkaboutsVerse, You're really fucking a lot of people off here, and you're acting like a fool. Which year do you wish the English tradition to stop at? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 26 May 08 - 02:55 PM ...should it be compulsory to log-in to post a "comment"? |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 26 May 08 - 03:00 PM WAV, once again said"...should it be compulsory to log-in to post a "comment"? My answer? No And WAV said " Yes, DS, no ceilidhs, please, we're English!...love national differences.' you really are a nasty racist little man, and I'll take celidhs among other sorts of dance, I believe in multiculturalisim in England, and that's the way it is these day, fortunately. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 26 May 08 - 03:01 PM no ceilidhs, please, we're English Well we are anyway WAV, whereas you're a naturalised Australian bigot with precious little idea about what English culture is actually about. Above anything else, we're a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural human adventure - all aboard for the mystery tour! |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 26 May 08 - 03:07 PM "Welcome, My Friends, to the show that never ends, step inside, step inside, step inside..." |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 26 May 08 - 03:38 PM No Sedayne, insisting that I'm Australian is, rather, bigotry - I was born here, all my known forebears were born here, I've lived here about 15 years now, I've read widely from the anthology of English verse, I practise English hymns and songs, enjoy watching English folk-dancing, etc., AND do love our world being multicultural. (Australia is a nation I'd like to VISIT, but I am English, thanks.) |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 26 May 08 - 03:44 PM WAV said (again) No Sedayne, insisting that I'm Australian is, rather, bigotry (I know ALL about that) - I was born here, all my known forebears were born here, I've lived here about 15 years now, I've read widely from the anthology of English verse, I practise English hymns and songs, enjoy watching English folk-dancing, etc., AND do love our world being multicultural,except for England of course, which should stay completely English, no multiculturalism wanted here, thank you. Here endeth the lesson. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 26 May 08 - 04:02 PM I watched on Scottish Gaelic TV, just the other day, a programme where Gaels were discussing the visit of Alan Lomax; and one comment made was that he seemed to help Scottish culture in that, before his visit, it was standard in Scotland to sing from an Oxford book of ENGLISH folk songs. I agree, that's a good change, but if an Englishman says suchlike, as I just did, he has to put up with the B-word and/or the R-word. We should be more proud of our own good English culture - WITHOUT being imperialistic about it, this time. |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Def Shepard Date: 26 May 08 - 04:11 PM well in your case the words Bigot and Racist (let's name those names and never mind cute litte initials) are appropriate. Don't you dare tell me I'm not proud to be English, what I'm also proud of MY England as it is in the here and now, complete with all its multicultural aspects |
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Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please From: Jack Blandiver Date: 26 May 08 - 04:27 PM I've read widely from the anthology of English verse, I practise English hymns and songs, enjoy watching English folk-dancing 1) Most real English people, whatever their ethnicity or country of origin, couldn't give a shit about any of the above. This doesn't make them any less English. I know Americans who know more about English poetry, folk-dancing & folk song than I do. Does this bother me? Not in the slightest, because like most real English people I regard folk as a barely significant aspect of English Culture; an enrichment to the few perhaps, but I can go for years without crossing paths with another folkie in real life. 2) I didn't say you were Australian, WAV - rather that you're a naturalised Australian, and all that entails culturally and personally. I have no problem with this of course, nor do I have a problem with you being here, but I do have a problem with your persistent pontificating on subjects you have no understanding of whatsoever and your resolute unwillingness to learn anything beyond your entirely erroneous & risibly simplistic conclusions. For fuck's sake man - live and learn! |
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