'English Country Dances', Please

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 26 May 08 - 04:39 PM

WAV might be familiar with this

excusatio non petita accusatio manifesta

('an excuse that has not been sought is an obvious accusation', or 'he who excuses himself, accuses himself'—an unprovoked excuse is a sign of guilt

in French ( I DO love multiculturalism :-D) qui s'excuse, s'accuse

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 26 May 08 - 05:01 PM

Above I meant that Gaels had mentioned a book of English folk-songs being standard in Scottish SCHOOLS before the visit of Lomax. Sorry for that omission but, following swiftly on from the B and R words, we get the "pontificating on subjects you have no understanding of whatsoever" type criticism, found on many a thread by now - so, again, I refer you to my blurb, in my defence.
And if someone in Scotland did indeed say it's good they no-longer have to learn at school from a book of English folk-songs, would Sedayne and DS use the same language against that person?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 26 May 08 - 05:12 PM

There he goes. passing his guilt off onto others, and the answer's no, because they have, if you like cast off the chains of English arrogance. Is England about to cast off it's arrogance? I'm not holding my breath. You know what, I don't use books of English folk songs either, I don't practice from Ye Olde Booke of Hymmes Anciente and Moderne, I don't read widely from anthologies of English verse, I don't enjoy watching English folk-dancing (I much prefer to actually participate) and , of course, as I've said elsewhere, tennis bores the arse off me. Does this make me and any less English than others? Not in the slightest, and your 'more English than thou attitude' is REALLY beginning to get up my nose.

Here Endeth The Lesson ;-D

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Malcolm
Date: 26 May 08 - 05:26 PM

Funnily enough the Chippenham Folk Fest has just finished, with LOADS of English - and American - and Anglo-American - and French etc dancing.

I wonder how many on this thread actually dance.

English folk dancing is going strong but, in practice, is largely danced by older dancers. Doesn't mean they're not active, or not good dancers. Most clubs IMHO seem to dance a variety of styles but with the accent on English. If different, it's usually clear in the club name.

Barn Dances are English but try telling that to the Yee-Hah! brigade for whom cowboy hats and check shirts are de rigeur. Probably just ignorance, but still cringeworthy. Hence, perhaps, the current use of ceilidh. (Do the French have a word for de rigeur?)

In England a ceilidh is usually a barn dance. "English ceilidh" is a coded version, which makes it explicit that it will be an energetic, bouncy English style of dance. Usually with all ages present. Steamchicken were excellent at Chippenham and the Committee Band were pretty good too.

That's how it is.

But - I dance two to three times a week, mostly in an English style - I have never seen an offer to attend - or do - English Country Dance.

Funny that. Must be the trolls dancing.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 May 08 - 05:43 PM

I refer you to my blurb, in my defence.

WAV - it's your blurb that's at fault; seriously. By all means set it down as a polemical blog, but to assume any of this carries any objective currency is just ridiculous. On the contrary, it just underlines how little you know & understand of any of the subjects you pontificate on. I note that you appear to have deleted your earlier published comments on the perils of same-sex parenting; if I were you, I'd follow suit with the rest of it.

Personally, I would seriously worry if I thought any kids had to learn at school from a book of English folk songs, especially English kids, but that's just me. It would be as ultimately pointless teaching them about railway modelling or bird watching; just another minority hobbyist irrelevance to the mainstream entirety. God knows kids have got enough to deal with at school as it is without filling their heads with that shit as well. In my day singing folk songs was considered subversive; I nearly got expelled for singing Lucy Wan in the playground once because it freaked out some fourth years...

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 26 May 08 - 05:46 PM

To quote myself. I don't enjoy watching English (folk/country/whatever you want to call it) dancing (I much prefer to actually participate)so....put that in the ring and dance to it :-D

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 26 May 08 - 06:20 PM

I nearly got expelled for singing Lucy Wan in the playground

Me thinks that you are exaggerating somewhat..

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 26 May 08 - 06:28 PM

Me thinks it's a big possibility that Sedayne is not exaggerating at all. There's always someone somewhere, even in the playground who'll complain about anything, or get totally freaked out. The lyrics as most probably know are not exactly a song from a Walt Disney film, so I could see it happening

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Nick
Date: 26 May 08 - 07:45 PM

POEM 1 of 283: Kippled

Irritated by the crumbs of confusion
   The rhinoceros
Scratches his soft skin and
   Wraps himself into his comforting
Shroud of certainty

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:07 AM

Well I grew up in the West Country and in my yoof there used to be frequent posters up around the villages for a Barn Dance....and it was just that a dance in a barn - usually a disco or some local rock band!

Sarah

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:21 AM

Me thinks that you are exaggerating somewhat..

Lucy Wan is one of those songs that takes no effort to learn; hear it once and it's in your head, tune and all. I first heard it when I was fifteen, circa 1976, and sang it to a bunch of mates at school by way of exemplifying that folk could be just as dark & subversive as anything else, punk especially. This was proved when one of said mates, a somewhat nervous fourth year, got so freaked out by the nature of the song she told her class tutor who reported it to the head who called on me to give account. The head took serious exception to the nature of the song, despite me sourcing it to The Penguin Book of English Folk Songs, a copy of which I had about my person, thereafter confiscated , necessitating I acquire another. I admit this wasn't an isolated incident - theft, smoking, truancy, wilful vandalism... it all adds up, but for one moment back there it seemed that I was to be the first person suspended for singing a Traditional English Folk Song.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Compton
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:53 AM

Anyway, good on yer, WAV...at least you got us talking about English Social Dance....which keeps it showing on the map! (it's a bit sick but not quite dead!)

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:01 AM

NO!! Not "good on you".

Don't let this man co-opt all the good stuff that goes on into his own agenda.

English traditional dancing of all forms is far from dead, but it is a changing and evolving tradition. Who cares what its called? Who cares if its true to some imagined ideal of the past that never actually existed?

I only care that it be kept away from WAVs grubby politics...

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:13 AM

Thanks, Compton, generally my repatriation is not going well, frankly, but one good thing is that my presence (participating, watching, arguing) on the folk-scene is not bad for numbers.
To Sedayne - I read your posts, as usual, but you do seem a bit confused about the value of books on English folk songs, such as your Penguin. And saying that my studies in humanities, including anthropology, has no relevance to these matters is also a bit silly, in my opinion.
And, no doubt, some of the English reading this have organised "ceilidhs"...why not be a devil and put "English Country/Barn Dance" on your next pamphlet/flyer, and see what happens..?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:20 AM

but one good thing is that my presence (participating, watching, arguing) on the folk-scene is not bad for numbers.

you do seem a bit confused about the value of books on English folk songs

Please clarify.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:13 AM

It's just this minute occurred to me - a memory of being called upon to design a poster for a Ceilidh in the Blackhall Mill community centre in the summer of 1983. So out comes my crayons & my copy of George Bain's Celtic Art: Methods of Construction & I set to work with the appropriate lettering & everything turns out just splendidly. Then I think - this was 25 years ago, and by no means the first ever Ceilidh to be held on English soil either, but a Ceilidh nevertheless, with young & old & newly born in glad attendance, with all manner of dances from reels to Strip-the-Willow, with a few songs and maybe a story too. I then reflect that the babies from back then will be in their mid-twenties now, carrying at least a notion of what a Ceilidh is & maybe even passing it onto their own children already.

So, a decade on from that halcyon summer our hapless repatriate fetches up on these shores after his long swim from the Antipodes (how else might I interpret eco travel on a shoe-string budget?) and begins his mission to persuade the English people that everything that they've held to be true hitherto has been wrong all along; that they have purposefully misled their children with their imperialistic spoils, despite the fact that many of them, myself included, were of Irish & Scots descent anyway. Hmmm. More need for ethnic cleansing here I reckon, WAV old fruit - sort out this wretched confusion once and for all.

Hardly the wonder your repatriation isn't going well; you're in Rome for God's sake - so do as the Romans do!

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:26 AM

From listening to a ceilidh on Scottish radio a few monhts ago, I think the description you just gave is a good one, Sedayne - but Scotland is not England, a-few-years-older-than-I-fruit!

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:37 AM

Joanne in Cleveland, your's is a devotee's opinion, quite welcome to it. I still think that if you had frequent barn dances where all you danced was ECD, you'd get sick of it.

WAV, what is the cutoff date for English culture, the date that it became set in stone and incapable of change? For all your dreams of lawn tennis, it surpassed in popularity a very English pastime- archery. I think one of the Plain Tales from the Hills mentions this. I'm sure you could find some 1880s WAVs croaking that this newfangled game of French origins is ruining good old English culture.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:54 AM

WAV's not watching the French Open (the home of Real tennis as opposed to Lawn tennis), Volgadon, because it's raining at Roland Garos. Critics often mention cut-off points for English culture, and evolution/change, when it's mainly a case of REPLACEMENT: i.e, if an English person is singing an American song in an American accent they are not performing an aspect of their own English culture/if a Swedish tune is being played at a session of English folkies, one of our many fine English tunes is not being heard.
And, as for English, French and archery, I'm not going to give a one-fingered-salute!
Yours sincerely
WalkaboutsVerse

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:35 AM

Perhaps this piece of poetry will clarify my stance...

Poem 213 of 230: MORE AMOR PATRIAE

There is Tai Chi AND there is tennis,
    Line is fine BUT so is Morris,
There is curry AND there is the roast,
    And, when England is playing host,
It is the rest-of-the-world's good wish
    To sense culture that is English.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:42 AM

but Scotland is not England

Indeed, they are but geographical & political regions of the United Kingdom with any amount of common ground in terms of culture and humanity, as the one thing bleeds into the other by dint of both history and proximity. Personally, I regard the differences as enrichments to the commonality which is far greater & more complex than your somewhat myopic vision on such matters might presently discern or give you right to comment upon.

Once again you attach too great a significance to folk culture, which is perhaps too conveniently national for your grubbily divisive ends. The majority of people, however, are elsewhere entirely, reaping the benefits of the global village whilst quietly consigning their traditional songs & dances to the museum in which they belong. Even those who value the various aspects of folk culture acknowledge that they are but a tiny minority who do so out of a very particular passion that is most assuredly the exception that proves the rule.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:49 AM

As we've agreed! before, Sedayne, we are both economically Left-wing but, somehow, you find a way to defend monarchism...?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 27 May 08 - 07:55 AM

WAV asks "Why not put English Country/Barn Dance" on your next pamphlet/flyer, and see what happens..?"

Because to those in the know, "ceilidh" conveys specific information about the style of dancing and music.

In England, a "ceilidh" may include English country dances, along with those nasty foreign imports such as polkas, waltzes and schottisches that our forebears were misguided enough to enjoy. Calling it a "ceilidh" indicates that these will be danced in a certain way, and the music will be played in a certain style. A "Folk Dance" or "Country Dance" may involve the same repertoire of dances and tunes but the styles of both dancing and playing will be different.

"Barn Dance" is so vague that it could be anything, but will usually encourage punters to arrive with stetsons and cap guns.

These distinctions may be lost on the general public, but for folk dance enthusiasts these semantic differences enable them to tell in advance what to expect.

Like it or not, after being used in this way for at least 30 years, "ceilidh" is now part of the English language, in the same way as other borrowed words like whisky (Gaelic), bungalow (Hindi), or alcohol (Arabic), to give just a few examples. Why do you have a beef (French) with that?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 08:08 AM

To HJ: when at a folk do, I've often heard folks mention the next ceilidh - but never an English Country Dance (which ties in with what Malcolm said above). However, I repeat, why not be a devil and advertise an English Country Dance and see what happens..? Perhaps the tide is turning, and English are getting a tad more interested in their own cultural heritage again...it may pay off..?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 May 08 - 08:15 AM

The only thing I'm defending, WAV, is people's rights to be what they are where they are, and when they are, without having their humanity defined according to their National Costume or, God forbid, folk music. I'm also speaking as one brought up on the English / Scottish border with strong cultural & familial connections to both countries, not some Johnny-Come-Lately who's only lived here for 15 years.

Anyway - go back to my earlier post of 5.20 and please respond.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 27 May 08 - 08:20 AM

WAV, there is nothing new with the phenomenon of 'going out for an Indian' (to put it one way). Eastern and Asian influences on English cuisine have been enormous. Tea, a tradition picked up from the East. Kidgeree, mulligatawny, Worcestershire sauce, all adaptations of Indian cuisine. Then come things like coronation chicken, dishes influenced by the East. Curry, as a spice, owes as much to Britain as to the Indian subcontinent.
Hannah Glasse, way back in the 1740s, included elements of Indian cooking, or what she thought was Indian, in her cookbook.
Curry appeared on menus in Haystreet in the 1780s and in the early 1800s, Dean Mahomet opened the first Indian restaurant in Britain, to serve faux Indian food which would appeal to those who had served in India. The main reason it failed was that they brought back their own chefs to cook Indian food!!!!

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 08:24 AM

I can't be any more clear on 5.20, Sedayne, sorry - and, besides, you just did a do-si-do on my monarchism? post!

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 09:01 AM

I know a bit about Israel, where you are from, if my memory serves me, Volgadon, and would not mind a visit one day...but, frankly, nowhere near as much as you know about England. Mind if I ask...?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 May 08 - 09:04 AM

I can't be any more clear on 5.20, Sedayne, sorry

How so? Just because I ask for something more than an ambiguous aphorism? This is one of the problems here, WAV, and one which gives the lie to your academic claims - you say things and resolutely refuse to back them up or else clarify just what is you mean when asked to do so.   

- and, besides, you just did a do-si-do on my monarchism? post!

I'm a political & cultural pragmatist, WAV - there's lots of opinions in the world, but truth remains, as ever, elusive. This seems to me the only absolute, so when it comes to opinions I tend to pass, especially on so emotive a topic as the Monarchy, which has precious little to do with the political realities of life in 21st century Britain other than providing a few more faces for the celebrity driven media spectacle to gawp at. That said, Diana's death seemed a very significant watershed as far as such things go; the mass outpouring of grief was a truly transcendent cultural experience. So again, it's nothing so straightforward that it can be boiled down to your simplistic outsider view of a culture of which you're neither a part, nor of which you have demonstrated any clear understanding.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 27 May 08 - 09:13 AM

"Mind if I ask...?"
Mind if you ask what?
If you mean why do I act like I know a bit about England, I've been to England more than a few times, have several close friends who are English, have grown up on English telly, love English books and history, of course I'm not English, despite my ancestry. I'm not setting myself up as an expert.

IIRC, you stated on a different thread that you have been to Israel. Now it kind of sounds like you are saying that you haven't.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 09:26 AM

Thanks for answering that, Volgadon,...it was only curiosity and I'm still here; but I never said I've been to Israel (apart from, on second thoughts, changing flights, apparently, upon my family's emigration from England to Aus., when I was 3).

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:00 AM

a memory of being called upon to design a poster for a Ceilidh in the Blackhall Mill community centre in the summer of 1983

Sedayne's memory stirs one of mine: what was advertised as "Croydon's Christmas Ceilidh", tunes supplied by the Albion Dance Band, at my old school in nineteen seventy...something. A friend of mine had talked his way into helping the band set up during the day (which involved Free Beer!), & I'd talked my way into hanging around with my friend until he told me to piss off (which, remarkably, also involved Free Beer!). Unfortunately, this means that I've got no recollection of the gig itself, as by the evening I was completely bladdered on London Pride. Bladdered in quite an active and sociable way - or so I was told afterwards - but bladdered nonetheless.

Anyway, I do vaguely remember one or two people saying "Christmas what?", but I'm sure most people were already familiar with the idea of a ceilidh - in Croydon, in nineteen seventy-thing.

Sub-topic: date my ceilidh! It was at Christmas (hence the name), I'm pretty sure it wasn't earlier than 1974 or later than 1976 and I'm reasonably sure it was the Albion Dance Band who performed, although I don't remember whether they played vielles rackets nakers ect ect. (I don't remember whether they played, if it comes to that.)

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:06 AM

...either way, Phil, from 2008 on - Croydon's Christmas Country Dance, please.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:28 AM

That's magical thinking, WAV - you say the words and lo! the world changes. Doesn't really work like that.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:35 AM

completely bladdered on London Pride

Perfect! Is there anything quite so splendid as being bladdered on London Pride in any sort of folkish context?

Must admit, I've never been able to take my folk entirely sober; before we left Durham we used to attend The Durham City Folk Club singarounds which fetched up eventually at The Shakespeare where I selected London Pride as my pint of choice because it was the name of my favourite morris tune. Aka Idbury Hill, of course, I play London Pride on pipe & tabor and use it as the melody to Rudyard Kipling's Puck's Song, but my source for this tune is The Battle of the Field by The Albion County Band, which is perhaps the finest slice of Folk Rock ever realised, in this country anyway, which also furnished me with I Was a Young Man, Hanged I Shall Be and The Gallant Poacher, all of which I still sing. Only later did I hear 'Dancing' Jim Wetherspoon whacking it out as part of Badger in the Bag's Green Man' Morrice (Buddle Arts Centre, circa 1980 - see HERE for the full story...) and I'm sure I've still got an old Folktracks cassette of a chap playing it on pipe & tabor too.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:37 AM

...an ocean - and even a pint, Phil - is made of many drops...

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:47 AM

I'd like to hear your pipe and tabor, Sedayne - probably the original Morris accompaniment, yes?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 May 08 - 12:12 PM

True, but you can't make a pint of honey from drops of vinegar...

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 12:22 PM

WAV as usual, "either way, Phil, from 2008 on - Croydon's Christmas Country Dance, please."
No thanks I prefer Christmas Ceilidh, it's far less wordy

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 12:31 PM

You could visit Scotland for a week or two, DS, and take in their Hogmanay, as well.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 01:08 PM

I could choose to spenfd the festive season where I choose to spend it, and call an event what I choose to call it, and not kow-tow to your nationalistic nonsense.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 27 May 08 - 01:16 PM

I'm privileged to be able to reveal WAV's master plan:

1. Go on Mudcat and irritate as many people as possible.
2. [illegible]
3. English tradition is revived!

Unfortunately I couldn't quite make out the second stage, as you can see. Can anyone help?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 May 08 - 01:16 PM

It's our Hogmanay too, WAV - complete with Black Bun, Shortie & Auld Lang Syne, the world o'er, in fact; a fine Scottish export, as with so much else, and welcomed, assimilated, part of our collective souls - like the Scots themselves in fact: see HERE.

Half the people I know in Scotland are English; and most of the Scots I know actually live in England. So what do we do with them I wonder?

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 01:29 PM

As I've also said here, nationalism with conquest IS bad; but nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade, via the UN, is good for humanity, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 27 May 08 - 01:38 PM

What is eco-travel?

Anyway, apologies, I misread a previous post about travel to Israel.
Still, this sounds like a recipe for pockets of MONOculture.

"Critics often mention cut-off points for English culture, and evolution/change, when it's mainly a case of REPLACEMENT: i.e, if an English person is singing an American song in an American accent they are not performing an aspect of their own English culture/if a Swedish tune is being played at a session of English folkies, one of our many fine English tunes is not being heard."

Do you HAVE to sing something just because it's yours? Culture is not a monolith, it's something broad and general, behind it are people and I think people have every right to sing things which speak to them.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 27 May 08 - 01:39 PM

I would also say that nationalism is bad if it equals ARROGANCE.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: Def Shepard
Date: 27 May 08 - 01:47 PM

WAV said "but nationalism with eco-travel and fair-trade, via the UN, is good for humanity, in my opinion. "

None of this makes any no sense at all. What does eco-travel have to do with nationalism? Indeed what does fair trade have to do with anything? The UN? a completely toothless and useless tiger with little or no relevance whatsoever in these days. Mind you. for what it's worth, I've always felt that about the UN. The links to your so-called poetry are totally wasted on me. It is my humble opinion you can't write
WAV, to my way of thinking is a huge fan of monocultures, each country in the world has its own culture with no overlap from any other, most especially in England (No multiculture here please, this is England).

Right, I'm going to listen to Yasmin Levy, I think! :-D

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 27 May 08 - 01:56 PM

Yasmin Levy!!!! Good taste.

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: irishenglish
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:05 PM

Yes! Yasmin Levy, although the cross pollination in her music might be lost on WAV!

Subject: RE: 'English Country Dances', Please
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 May 08 - 02:11 PM

Eco-travel is often synonymous with Volgadon's favourite phrase - shoestring travel: overland as much as possible, hitchhiking for adult males, etc.