BS: my Spouse has left with our son!

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 05:02 PM

I don't think conjectures and speculation are of much help, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 05:17 PM

Guest - 04:41 PM

Can you point me to where "by her own account, the poster escalated a verbal exchange to physical violence by throwing objects--and she admits that she was thowing things when she was grabbed and pushed...." because I cant see it anywhere...

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Slag
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 05:29 PM

Glad to hear that the situation seems to be on the road to resolution. Good luck with the outcome and for all concerned. SharonA, I can understand Anonymous turning to the one place she felt she could get calmed down and begin to think straight. See my previous comments on isolation. Going through experiences like this is, for some, one of the most devastating things that can happen to you. Why else all the denial and cover up? Your whole world, that which you have built your life around, is coming apart. Who do you turn to? Family may not understand. They may have had no clue, or at least you may feel that way. And who is thinking clearly at all in such an upheaval? Nor is it over once the physical and legal issues are resolved. I know from personal experience that the emotional and psychological after effects can continue on for years and for some a lifetime if not dealt with professionally.

The biggest temptation is to just quit once the immediate problem is relieved: to think "things are OK now. I can deal with it." The truth is you have just gone througha major ESCALATION of the problem and broken things seldom, if ever, just fix themselves. DON'T QUIT. Follow through. Do what ever it takes but follow this thing through. Until you are safe and can stand autonomously, your not through. Plenty of support here in cyberspace but you need someone physically at hand to help you deal with the situation and its aftermath. Keep going and God bless.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 06:04 PM

The overwhelming concensus of opinion here seems to be that the spouse shoulders all responsibility for the predicament Anonymous finds herself in. The other side of the story will probably never be revealed on this forum, which is a strange place indeed to unburden oneself and invite all and sundry to give advice. Concern for the child is paramount in a situation such as this and his welfare should take priority, with professional help. However well meaning the advice given here by sincere, concearned posters or friends, it can cause more harm than good if the advice taken is even a fraction off.
The spouse must also be confused and hurting and I wish them all good luck on the hard road ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: SharonA
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 06:07 PM

Slag, if this is the one place where A.M. felt she could go to get calmed down and begin to think straight, it does indeed speak volumes about her sense of isolation in the midst of abuse. I still find it quite distressing, though.

I don't mean to be a Monday-morning quarterback about this incident, but simply to say to anyone who might find him/herself in a similar situation in the future that: (a) there's a time factor involved in finding a child who has been taken by an adult, so (as hard as it may be to do) one needs to put one's doubts and fears into abeyance and concentrate on notifying the people who can realistically help find the child; and (b) local counselors (police, women's shelter personnel, etc.) have the training and experience to give assistance and advice in such situations, so one has a better chance of finding the help one needs, sooner, than an internet forum that includes posters who don't know the local laws, who question one's story and motives, or who are otherwise unhelpful (and may even deter one from seeking help when one reads that he/she is not being believed).

Sounds like A.M. has her head on straight enough to ignore the nay-sayers here, and that she even has close local friends who are also Mudcatters. I'm happy to see that. But the next person in distress who starts such a thread may not have those strengths to lean on, and reading the less-kind posts may make things worse instead of better. So what I'm saying is that, though Mudcat does have some very kind and caring posters, the forum should not be treated as one's "first responder" in emergencies.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,A practical man
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 06:56 PM

Change the locks.

Sleep (mostly clothed) with a baseball bat.
Don't hesitate to use it.

Keep your son in the same room as you at night.

Keep the dog in at night, he'll probably poison it.

You may or may not be morally right (hell, who cares), but you stand a better chance of safety.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 08:58 PM

"I got mad, went and got one of the boxes and said "Here, I'll save you the trouble", and bent over to dump it back in the corner it had come from..........When I bent over, Spouse jumped up from the sofa, grabbed me by the wrist and jerked my away from the box, then shoved me across the room."

According to her account, she had a box of her husband's belongings in her hands and was in the process of throwing it when he got up from the sofa, grabbed her wrist and pushed her away.

I don't know how accurate her account is because I wasn't there--but I am hard-pressed to see that as a jailable offence.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 09:24 PM

"bent over to dump it back in the corner it had come from.........." Doesn't sound to me like it was about to be thrown at him.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 09:36 PM

Sounds a bit self-serving--intent explained after the fact--

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 10:00 PM

Dumping a box of someone's stuff is a far cry from physically assaulting them which he apparently did to her. The minute he laid his hands on her it was assault.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 10:28 PM

There has been some excellent advice, some that is so so, and the following:

"Sleep (mostly clothed) with a baseball bat.
Don't hesitate to use it."

Then the child will have no father and a mother doing time. I am trying to think of a word. Maybe best not to.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,Disgusted Onlooker
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 10:59 PM

How can you compare two acts that you didn't see? You don't even know who is telling the story, let alone whether their description is a fair account of what happened. We don't any of us know what happened. Still, we're all taking sides, and arguing over the details.

Even worse, though, we are all getting emotionally involved--venting real anger, not just at the victim and the perpetrator, but at each other.   My advice is to ignore everything that's been said and run like hell.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Partridge
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 04:33 PM

I hope all goes well from now on. Ignore thise who have posted with negative responses. They have problems of their own. I wish you well.
love
Pat xxx

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: skipy
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 04:40 PM

I do not know about USA law, but, "assault" under U/K law can be well before:-
"The minute he laid his hands on her it was assault".

We have had a case through the courts over a telephone assault, bringing fear into another's life or space is assault over here (and so it should be)
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Slag
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 05:14 PM

In US an assualt is a credible threat. That can include lifting a hand meanacingly. Battery is the actual unwanted touching.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 05:21 PM

Whoo - I do hope the anonymous poster took the first tranche of advice and is ignoring the latest redneck lunacy.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: skipy
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 05:28 PM

GUEST, to what do you refer?
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 05:57 PM

I think the practical man may well be right.

There was a period when I was getting (real) death threats from a piece of scum (stupid enough to leave death threats on my mobile phone messaging service, duh) happily since deceased, and I slept with a butcher's cleaver. Better alive and in the nick than dead.

If you have a weapon, use it. Otherwise it gets used on you.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,Mrrzy
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 05:57 PM

Whew. Glad the child is home. Spouse going to jail may be the best thing that happened to him - and to our Temporarily Anonymous member (when I posted something after losing custody of my kids, there was none of this thread creep into is the poster a creep, I might add, and I got a *lot* of support, so I'm glad Anon came here, wish I'd seen the post sooner, sounds terrifying) because now, maybe he'll see that it isn't just the Wife who has these ideas of how things ought to be, but Reality, and get some help. For both of them.

Good luck!

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Sorcha
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 07:35 PM

Seems to me that Anon Member is female, Spouse is male.
"When he walked into the living room, he first commented on how good it looked, then asked, sounding rational, what I had done with his 'piles.' I started to tell him, and then he went....."

Many he, him, his.....

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Slag
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 07:46 PM

Violence is the last resort of the incompetent ( or so I've heard). Being armed is a tremendous responsibility and knowing when to produce a weapon has a LOT of legal ramifications. If a woman has some weapon other than a gun, nine times out of ten that weapon will be taken from them as used on them. Sorry ladies by this is one area where there is really no such thing as equality. Using a weapon to threaten or warn off is also a bad idea for the same reasons. If you take an armed self defense class one of the first things you learn is that when you produce a weapon it takes the conflict to a whole new level. You must be competent in the use of the weapon and absolutely ready, willing and able to use it. That weapon should be the last thing in this life that your assailant will ever see. Period. Otherwise leave weapons out of it. Use the legal process. Use the anonymity of the Women's Shelter. Restraining order are sometimes effective if the other person is rational. If you know in your heart that no court order will stop the person do whatever it takes to defend your life and those of your threatened loved ones. It's easier to get out of jail than it is a graveyard.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 07:52 PM

Best thing a woman can use as a weapon, besides her voice, is a can of spray paint aimed at the face. It's not lethal, so cannot be used to kill her and once it hits the assailant's eyes, if they are holding her, they immediately turn loose and grab for their own face, thus giving her time to scream, run away, hit over the head, kick in the privates or whatever else she can learn in self defense classes.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: jeffp
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 08:40 PM

Virtually anything in a spray can, including deodorant or hair spray can be effective sprayed in the face.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Slag
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 02:15 AM

Dear Kat and jeffp, I wouldn't bet my life on it.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: MBSLynne
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 02:44 AM

My Mum always told me that to kick a man in the privates was not a good idea, because if you didn't manage a really good kick, enough to floor him, he'd kill you. She said the best self defense was index and middle finger held stiff and poked with force into his eyes. Then run like hell....

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 03:15 AM

MBSLynne - Your mum was right! Don't forget to scream while all of this is going on.

Slag, I totally agree, "If you know in your heart that no court order will stop the person do whatever it takes to defend your life and those of your threatened loved ones."

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 03:36 AM

the UK legal definition of assualt is threat - usually physical like raising an arm agressively. Battery requires physical contact.

the phrase "assualt and battery" has confused these definitions outside the legal context.

not sure where sprays come in all of this.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,Captain Ginger
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 03:41 AM

In the UK sprays would be covered by the Offences Against the Person Act, but the user would probably claim self-defence. And stand a better chance of succeeding in that than if she took a knife or a baseball bat to the fellow. Absurd as it seems, violence has to be 'proportional'.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 05:45 AM

There are many different ways taught in self-defense classes, at least the ones my daughters and I took. The first defense recommended was one's voice, in a VERY LOUD manner, as loud as possible. Preferably before an attack even gets near to you. While other body parts were mentioned, I do remember kicking in the privates as one of them.

Years ago when I wrote an op/ed column, I did a lot of research on this and that's where the can of spray paint came up.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 05:51 AM

spray paint at least helps identify the attacker for the next few hours.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Gizmo
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 09:56 AM

Hairspray which is strong enough to clean biro off a table, is much more stingier for the eyes. And don't hold back. It has been recommended by many police also to use that method (over here in UK schools anyway), as it is not officially a weapon and cannot be done for it using it as such - any woman with a sense of style (grins) should have one in their bag (even if it is just for defense reasons alone), It is a good way of buying time you may not have had. Or while they are at a surprise form hairspray in the eyes a bloody good opportunity to get a strong kick in the nuts to bring them down and a whack on the back of the neck - done in the correct spot would KO them completely, thus giving you enough time to get the hell outta there - making sure you get enough attention also!

If worse comes to the worse, bite, pull hair, scratch etc - do what you can and don't hold back. You're fighting for your life - which is worth fighting for!

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Becca72
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 09:58 AM

The strongest point of your body is the elbow...I've been told that a very good defense is to elbow the person in the bridge of the nose. Hurts like hell, causes eyes to water and you can bolt when they let go to grab their face.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: jeffp
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 11:11 AM

Tell you what, Slag. Spray yourself in the face with your eyes open and get back to us on that.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: JennyO
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 11:32 AM

a very good defense is to elbow the person in the bridge of the nose

Bit hard if you're an average height woman to reach the bridge of an average height man's nose with your elbow. You'd have to kick him in the nuts first to make him bend down.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 11:43 AM

Still awaiting word on whether or not AM needs all this violent advice.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,Captain Ginger
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 11:44 AM

Oh dear, I think I need to sit down and cross my immaculately-trousered legs. I can feel my eyes beginning to water.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 11:54 AM

The truth is that in violent confrontations, the first person to land a strike is usually the one who prevails. And if your survival depends on getting a can of hairspray to go off in someone's eyes, you're chances of survival are not very good.

And, Becca72, when you are attacked, you get a rush of adrenalin and related chemicals that impairs your fine motor control, and restricts your field of vision, and, gives the sensation that your legs have been knocked out from under you--you're going to be hardpressed to get that elbow line up with anything, let alone the bridge of an attacker's nose.

No matter how well you have been trained in martial arts and self-defense, when the violence begins, all bets on the outcome are off.

The ways to avoid being a victim to violence are simple, and not violent(simple but not necessarily easy):

1) stay out of reach,
2) learn how to keep confrontations from escalating ,
3) minimize your exposure to dangerous situations,
4)When you are going to be exposed, have your escape options planned in advance.


I have a lot of concern for Anonymous Guest--by all appearances, she is married to a dangerous, volatile, individual, and is the victim of both physical and psychological abuse. Yes, it is wrong, and no, she doesn't deserve it. (Just in case some of you think I somehow or another am defending her husband, I'm not)--

He is troubled (and trouble), and innocent things set him off--my concern was that even after twenty years, she still didn't realize that she had put herself in a perilous situation--the result being that he got the drop on her.

Twenty years of marriage, a home, and a child, are all incentives to "forgive and forget" and ignore the implications--especially since the ways out of this dangerous situation are not clearly marked or easy to negotiate. AM, please remember to get and keep yourself, and your son, out of harm's reach--

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: JennyO
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 12:26 PM

M.Ted, just LIVING with some people is a perilous situation. This kind of person is unpredictable. Something that seems okay one time, might set them off next time. There are no guaranteed methods of avoiding upsetting someone like that, short of having nothing to do with them. I think it's remarkable that something like this had not happened earlier. I've been through a similar situation with my ex, and believe me, there is no RIGHT way to act with a person like that.

You think that 20 years of living with him should have given her the ability to know what would set him off? I'm afraid it doesn't work that way. Your implication that she could have avoided the situation by acting differently, makes me angry. You don't understand enough, and the last thing she needs to hear now is that she could have done better. No, she did the best she could. And she is probably out there now taking care of business and doing the best things she can for herself and her son.

I understand your concern that she might weaken and "forgive and forget" - it's a valid concern. You can't go through years of this without your self-esteem taking a beating. I know mine did at the time. That is why what she needs most from us is support and positive feedback, and the best thing we can do is give it to her.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Gizmo
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 01:35 PM

The advice given re violence was not advocating it - just if anyone finds themselves in a violent situation whereby running is not an option.

I vote for running all the time, yet this has not prevented violence happening to me. I did manage to crawl out of a violent relationship - but only with the great support of friends, and it has taken me years to regain the self respect I have for myself now.

I was also in a situation, years later whereby I was being dragged by two men down a side street. Shouting managed to frighten one enough to be wary, yet the other one carried on. In this situation I was glad that my fighting instinct came through - I'm barely 5 foot tall, these men were at least a foot taller - I had no choice in this situation but to fight. Sometimes you have to, and the thought of preserving your life - by whatever means is the only thought in your brain.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 01:47 PM

I was taught that kicking an attacker in the balls only enrages him.

I was also taught that your best defense is to go for the eyes because the attacker will instinctively let go to protect or cover his eyes.

I'm very worried about some of the advice being given here.

Any weapon that you attempt to use can be used on you.

Its much easier to remember to scream, poke and/or scratch and run.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 02:43 PM

I am one of those whose reaction is considered unsympathetic, insensitive and unhelpful. That is all right with me. Until and unless we have further information I'll stand by my judgment.

Here is the sum total of what she told us (emphasis and comments mine:

"...he went off on a rant, informing me he was going to move it all back tomorrow, screaming and cursing me. (verbal, not physical)

"I got mad, went and got one of the boxes and said "Here, I'll save you the trouble", and bent over to dump it back in the corner it had come from. (I know, real mature of me *sigh*). I wasn't aware, because he was behind me, but in the meantime, my son had come into the room to see what the yelling was about. When I bent over, Spouse jumped up from the sofa, grabbed me by the wrist and jerked my (me)away from the box, then shoved me across the room (No hitting, no threats to kill or even harm) .

"Next, he picked up the box and flung it across the room, breaking the box and scattering the contents.(taking out his anger on an inanimate object)? I was completely shocked and frightened and considered calling the police, but he didn't come toward me after that (i.e. responded appropriately), and I told him I would call the police if he laid another hand on me."

Then she left to calm down. He did not impede her departure, did not threaten her, did not threaten to burn the house down, did not threaten to harm their child.

While she was gone, HE left- perhaps to calm down himself?

I agree that the whole scenario was violent and aggressive, which is upsetting, especially given her 20-year history with the man. But not once did she say that she was in fear. Rather, she was shocked and outraged at his reaction.

Frankly, my guess is that she is surprised at the Mudcat's over-reaction.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 03:05 PM

JennyO--I didn't mean it that way-though in reading my original post(the one near the top, it seems like I did)--what I meant, was more like--"You are in danger!! You can't tell, even after twenty years, what is going to set him off"--as you say, just living with some people is perilous--and often, it takes people with toxic partners a long time to realize what their true situation is--

Sometimes, people with mental illness use their instability as a lever to manipulate people. And they use the unpredictability of their outbursts as a way of controlling the people around them. Not that they are pretending to lose control illness, it's just that they have learned to channel it--

Not sure if that is the case here, but it is clear that AM lives in a climate of fear that has existed for a long time--I think she has been a victim for a long time, and she has to find a way out.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: SharonA
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 03:30 PM

Ebbie, what you've emphasized in A.M.'s comments is what I characterized as her rationalizing away a violent situation. She's the one doing the minimalizing, but I think it can be inferred from the fact that he disappeared with the child for more than a few hours without notifying her (and with his cell phone turned off) that he was doing something other than just going off to calm down.

As you and others have said, we don't have the whole story -- including the details of the 20-some years of what she said was his emotional and verbal abuse, as well as alcohol and marijuana abuse. Maybe there's even drug abuse there that she doesn't know about, or isn't telling us about. I don't think we need every minute description of everything they both ever did or felt, in order to be sympathetic. Does she have to say she's afraid in order for us to sense it?

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 03:34 PM

To further clarify, I think that, if she has been a victim for a long time, she has to examine her role in the relationship, if only to figure out how to stop being a victim.

I knew a guy who liked to say, "You get what you accept." And somebody else said, "Not doing anything is also a choice."

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,Anonymous Member
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 07:01 AM

These remarks are addressed to others who may find themselves in some immediate, time critical crisis, but who, seeing how this thread morphed, might fear reaching out to one immediate possible resource. Don't let it stop you.

I have absolutely no regrets about starting this thread. This thread, as threads do, quickly took on its own character and became irrelevant to me. But the validation and support I garnered from people in this cyber-community right in the immediate moment that I needed it has value beyond measure.

It takes time to mobilize your inner resources and your 3-D resources and supports. Mudcat held my hand until I could get those in place, and that played a critical role in helping me.

This cyber-community is not a substitute for 3-D support. But it can be a vital bridge.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Little Robyn
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:24 PM

Well done AM. How are you getting on now? Is he out of your way forever or are you trying to patch up?
Hang in there kid!
Robyn

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: skipy
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:37 PM

Keep going AM & keep leaning if you need too, the Cat as nasty as it can be sometimes, really gives a shit!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:40 PM

Thanks, AM. We are here, anytime.

All the best and lots of {{{{{{HUGS}}}}}

kat

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: JennyO
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 07:28 PM

Ditto what Kat said, AM. Been kinda busy lately, but still sending you the warm Oz energy - which is particularly WARM today - phew!

And don't believe all that stuff about the comet and death, disease and pestilence, either - especially don't believe a word Rapaire says ;-) I've seen her, and she's all good!

Even the Aussie bushfires serve a purpose - some of our native plants rely on the heat of the fire for their seedpods to burst open so they can regenerate. Sometimes old structures have to be torn down to make way for new ones - from destruction comes rebirth, as embodied by the goddess Kali.

{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}} from me too.

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Gizmo
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 09:15 PM

Yes the same as above from me AM.

I hope things have turned out ok for you, and there are many here on your side.

All the best for the future.

Nicci