Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 01:47 PM

sorry for monster post. Statrted writing and couldnt stop

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 03:08 PM

To go back to an earlier post from Jim (MacColl reassessing his approach to singing a long ballad after research on listeners' attention span) - I knew of Jeannie Robertson's ' Harlaw' long before I ever decided to "sing it out", and when I did I found the 20-22 verses and choruses overlong. But I didn't want to lose any of the narrative, so my first choice was to sing pairs of verses with one chorus - which worked fairly well because the first section of the song is question and answer between various combinations of people. Having made that choice, I found that as I worked it up to performance level the tune was changing in subtle ways:- for example, during the questionings at the start the tune might stay within a restricted range (missing out the high notes at the end of line1 and at the start of line3) but still in what I thought of as a major key. When battle was joined, these high notes quite readily reappeared and were useful in adding drama and energy. Then I realised that as the narrative progressed and Macdonald was slain, some verses were naturally falling into a more modal/minor tuning. (Apologies for being so technically ignorant!) But I would like to say that these choices were not then set in stone, and have varied in other performances - probably dependent on audience response as I was singing.
And audience response is a great thing - there was an occasion when the late Norman Buchan brought Jeannie Robertson down to Glasgow for a concert and he took her out to our school (Rutherglen Academy) the next day, where she sang 'Harlaw' to his second year English class. When he later asked the pupils what they thought, a 13year-old boy said,"See, Sir, battles must have been awful noisy in those days!" ['An' ilka sword gi'ed clash for clash']

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 04:04 PM

M THE GM,Arthur MacBride? highly unlikely,they were not playing by the Queensbury Rules.
I reckon they disappeared quickly,before reinforcements arrived, but who knows? it should be left to the imagination.
the story has finished.finish the song.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Maryrrf
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 06:21 PM

Ok here's an example of a ballad that I think is done to perfection. Tommy Makem sings "Butcher's Boy" . He sings in his natural speaking voice and with his own accent, but enunciating very clearly. There is expression in his voice, but it is subtle and delicate. Liam's guitar accompaniement is tasteful and understated, and in no way detracts from the story line. The other two join in at times with some harmony, providing some variation and interest, but the focus is on Tommy's singing. Tommy Makem could belt out a song when appropriate, but he knew how to handle a delicate and beautiful ballad. So did Liam Clancy.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Maryrrf
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 07:03 PM

And here's an example of a ballad that I think is done terribly. At least the words can be understood - but you'd have a hard time following the story. Six Mile Bridge performs Billy Taylor . Fairport Convention and Steeleye Span did 'folk rock' ballads but they did them well.

I once heard this group perform "Broom of the Cowdenowes" live. It was excruciating - like chalk on a blackboard....

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Maryrrf
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 07:13 PM

Here's an example of a ballad done with a lot of accompaniement - percussion, etc. but it's done well and for me - it works. There are plenty of instrumental breaks too, but all in all it hangs together under Ian F. Benzie's strong, confident singing (he's one of my favorites). Ian F. Benzie performs "Bonnie Jean o' Bethelnie" with Old Blind Dogs

OK I have to go out and celebrate New Year's Eve so I'll quit posting. I'd like to see other folk's examples of Ballads - the Good, the Bad and the Ugly. Perhaps I shouldn't phrase it that way because a lot has to do with personal preference - but anyway show us some examples and critique them, as Crow Sister suggested.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 07:30 PM

Michael said
> No, Richard; NOT that one. I was careful to specify the 1977 rendition. So go back to the one you mentioned in YouTube & click on the one I was ref'g to in the side panel. It was when he was that young fella with the long hair, begorrah.. <

Ah, fine, pity there wasn't a direct link to it, so here is one now.

GSS said
> the 1977 version is much better,and is very good.,his breathing is good.,i still cant see the point of the instrumental break in the middle,the most appropriate place is at the beginning.,it [imo]interupts the flow.

I agree. Clearly there are different opinions here about the pros and cons of putting an instrumental break in the middle. In this instance my personal preference would be either the same minimal interval as between the other verses or, perhaps, half a verse's worth of tune. A whole verse's worth, at the fairly slow pace of this performance, loses the thread of the narrative.

Part of the reason why the words in the 1977 version are so much clearer can be seen in the video: separate mikes for the voice and the guitar, and an appropriate balance between them (thanks, presumably, to someone on the sound desk). The later performance has, as far as can be seen, only a single mike.

I note the various opinions about repeating the last verse at the end. I agree that it can complete a circle, but I think that applies in very few songs. Sometimes it makes a nonsense, and usually it seems to me just a waste of time. But it seems to be increasingly prevalent, as if people think they're supposed to do it.

I suggest the crucial question to ask oneself about repeating the first verse is the same as about accompaniment: Does it enhance the performance or does it distract from the essence of the ballad?

BTW a Guid New Year to all.

Richard

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Rumncoke
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 08:54 PM

My little grandson was being a real swine, so I sat him on the setee and sang Long Lankin to him.

He sat there watching me, clutching his knitted blanket, listening intently.

I reached the end, he smiled, and fell asleep until his parents arrived home.

I was impressed, and wondered how long after four months old he would lose the ability to listen to ballads - is it something like the grip that new borns have, and then lose, or a simple fascination of sound and rhythm, maybe just a philosophical outlook engendered by the inability to walk away.

It is one good reason to pass ballads on to the next generation, causing fretful offspring to be quiet and then fall asleep without resort to narcotics is a good trick.

Anne Croucher

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 10:23 PM

GSS writes:
===M THE GM,Arthur MacBride? highly unlikely,they were not playing by the Queensbury Rules.
I reckon they disappeared quickly,before reinforcements arrived, but who knows? it should be left to the imagination.
the story has finished.finish the song. ===

Disagree, GSS. They paused long enuff 4 Arthur to say "The Devil run with you for delaying our walk" - with implication surely that they just nonchalantly resumed their interrupted walk, which they merely regarded as having been temporarily 'delayed'?

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 06:38 AM

Further to Maryrrf on Jean o Bethelnie by Ian F Benzie - very good, and well accompanied - I would draw attention also to Shirley Collins' singing of same ballad, under alternative title Glenlogie and with a slight variant of the tune, on her Love Death & The Lady album [1970]. This too is fully accompanied, even with sackbut which you might think a bit heavy: but it works for me because it's that sort of ballad; some are, some are not. I found it just by googling -Youtube Shirley Collins Glenlogie-.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 07:10 AM

"Part of the reason why the words in the 1977 version are so much clearer can be seen in the video: separate mikes for the voice and the guitar, and an appropriate balance between them (thanks, presumably, to someone on the sound desk). The later performance has, as far as can be seen, only a single mike."
yes, but sung unaccompanied, by a singer who has learned voice projection,there should be no need for a microphone.
any singer who cannot sing without a microphone and not be heard needs to go away and start singning from the diaphragm, and learn voice projection.
I am not against microphones,providing they are properly balanced[as they were not in the later version], but to be able to sing without them,is important,of course a different skill is required to sing with them,learning to hang back on popping ps and bs and not have sibilant ssssss.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: English Jon
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 07:30 AM

My approach to this is basically: Collect every version of the song/story you can find. Research anything that doesn't make sense or is ambiguous. Then build up the most complete version you can from the various sources you've gathered. Cut out any "padding". Translate the whole thing to modern english (ie, audience accessibility - I find I do a lot of translations of scots/english stuff) but try to use the same word root if possible - Change only what is necessary. Make sure it (more or less) rhymes/scans in keeping with the rest of the piece. Finally, assess whether the end result sounds "of a type" with your other songs. Revise and re-revise.

Then there's the small matter of learning the song - REALLY learning it, sussing out the accompaniment (optional) and finally, polishing up the performance. Then you gig it for a year and finally, you record it.

It's a very involved process, you kind of have to commit to these songs. We've all heard ballads done badly, and it's excruciating as some of these songs take a quarter of an hour to sing. With enough commitment they kind of take on a life of their own though, and it's worth the hard work.

Good luck!

Cheers,
Jon

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 08:19 AM

Following on from Rumncoke's posting, I used to sing ballads ( by request, may I add) to my two sons instead of bed-time stories. They particularly liked Lord Thomas & Fair Eleanor - they never tired of him flinging the Brown Girl's head against the wall. They also loved the elder sister ( who had just drowned her beautiful younger sister Kate ) getting away with it by putting the blame on the miller who was hung at his own front gate.
Coming back to Crow Sister's initial posting, how does one take on the big ballads? My way - and I am not in any way being prescriptive, but just saying what I do - is first, find a good story that you REALLY want to tell other people. Second, find a text version that you like - add or subtract verses to make it YOUR way of telling the story. Third, find a tune you both like and can sing without worrying about. If you are constantly worrying about pitching the notes it won't make for easy singing and the story is paramount.
After you have selected your version, learn it so it becomes part of you. Like many other posters here, I see the song in pictures in my mind's eye.
Then sing it to anyone who will listen. And don't fret about people who say audiences get bored. You can bore an audience with a one-verse song if you sing badly. You can engage an audience with any song sung well, but you must believe in it.
Mary

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Maryrrf
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 10:43 AM

Like Mary Humphries (whom I would love to see perform someday!) I regularly, and by request, sang ballads to my kids as bedtime lullabies. Their favorites were House Carpenter, The Great Silkie, and The Four Marys.

My late dog used to enjoy my ballads too. At least she would curl up next to me and appear to be listening intently.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 11:16 AM

I said
"Part of the reason why the words in the 1977 version are so much clearer can be seen in the video: separate mikes for the voice and the guitar, and an appropriate balance between them (thanks, presumably, to someone on the sound desk). The later performance has, as far as can be seen, only a single mike."

and GSS commented
"yes, but sung unaccompanied, by a singer who has learned voice projection,there should be no need for a microphone."

I agree entirely (unless it's the kind of venue where there's loads of noise, in which case I for one wouldn't want to sing there at all).

However, if you do prefer to have an accompaniment, projecting your voice so that everyone can hear it without a microphone is no good if the instrument is just as loud. This is especially tricky with a concertina, because the sound goes out sideways and seems less loud to the person playing it than to everyone else.

That can be one reason for using amplification; not to make everything louder but just to improve the balance. However there's a downside to that, if you get too accustomed to relying on the electronic mix to balance the loudness, and then sometimes sing without the electronics.

Richard

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: GUEST,Richard Mellish
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 11:22 AM

Dunno why I've just appeared as "GUEST". Need to remind myself how to reset the cookie, but Help is currently unavailable.

Richard Mellish

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 11:25 AM

OK, I'm me again.

Richard

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 11:37 AM

is it just me or are people discussing the necessity of a mike for a recording? Um I'm all for just using your diaphragm and hoping the magical elves remember it, dont get me wrong.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 01:00 PM

is it just me or are people discussing the necessity of a mike for a recording?

It's just you.

I've sung with a mike four times in total; hated it. I've sung to hit the back wall* more times than I can count; love it.

*Projection, not volume - although projection and volume can be fun.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Maryrrf
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 01:10 PM

I think what Barden was pointing out was that all of the examples cited involved mics - because they are recordings, in one form or another. If you're recording - it HAS to go through some kind of a mic so there's no question of using one or not, you have no choice. Singing with/without a mic involves a different approach, certainly, and yes if the room and the acoustics permit then mic-less is the way to go. I learned to project my voice when I worked as a strolling guitarist/singer in a restaurant many moons ago, and I'm glad I did. Balance can be a problem, though, when instruments are involved and that's where a PA system can help.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jan 10 - 03:24 PM

"However, if you do prefer to have an accompaniment, projecting your voice so that everyone can hear it without a microphone is no good if the instrument is just as loud. This is especially tricky with a concertina, because the sound goes out sideways and seems less loud to the person playing it than to everyone else."
not for me it aint,it was when i first started,one learns to play the concertina very quietly,it is a good idea to practise it seperately at firsttrying to play the accompaniment as quiet as a mouse,then practise the instrument loud,then quiet again,then put the two together ,well it worked for me anyway
now when I sing into a mike they turn my voice right down,but it is a different skill using a mike,you have to think crooner,and be wary of certain syllables for sibilance etc.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 06:53 AM

I hope nobody minds me making a couple of points in case this enjoyable thread rides off into the sunset before I get a chance?
The ballads, in my opinion, are occasionally treated with far too much reverence; quite often, even the term, 'Big' can be off-putting, both for singer and listener, creating a barrier to their enjoyment before you even start to tackle them. I once heard quite a good singer once say "Oh, I'm not ready for the ballads yet", as if she was talking about climbing Everest (or going to a Celtic-Rangers match).
They are stories; old, sometimes long (though certainly not always), and often carrying fairly obscure lore and information embedded in them; but stories, just the same.
I always found that a bit of background reading helped me to enjoy and understand them, both as a singer and a listener. Not necessarily the heavy stuff, which I often found hard going and could be a hindrance rather than helping.
Evelyn Kendrick Wells's 'The Ballad Tree' and Willa Muir's 'Living With Ballads', both at one time or another criticised for being 'too lightweight', were great general introductions to the genre for me, and both extremely enjoyable reads, if a little wide of the mark occasionally. Similarly, Madge Elder's 'Tell The Towers Thereof' and 'Ballad Country' are invaluable scene-setters for the Border ballads, as is George MacDonald Fraser's (creator of the 'Flashman' series) 'The Steel Bonnets'. Nigel Tranter's 'True Thomas' is also a good context introduction for 'Thomas The Rhymer' and an enjoyable historical' romp' into the bargain (as are many of his books on Scots history) His James v trilogy doesn't do too bad a job in adding, (albeit fictional) flesh to the bones of 'The Gaberlunzie Man'.
(Cap'n – I was winding you up when I said I didn't like T T R – it's a great ballad, though it can become a little turgid if it's taken too ponderously. My friend Bob Blair (sometime Mudcat lurker) makes a wonderful job of it (I think on one of the Argo 'Poetry and Song' or 'Voices' series)).   
For anybody Interested in the folklore to be found in them, Lowry C Wimberly's 'Folklore in the English and Scottish Ballads' is, in my opinion, unsurpassed, both as a cover-to-cover read and as a long-term reference book.
All of these, and more, have helped me considerably to enjoy listening to and singing the ballads and prevent them becoming 'interesting' museum pieces. I would be interested to learn if anybody has any other similar inspirational reading.
There is another point related to all this I wanted to make, but this has become far too long as it is so maybe later.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 08:57 AM

Books which have interested me include "The Ballad as Song" by Bertrand Harris Bronson, which IMO encourages/provokes thinking about the songs in their variations; also "The Ballad of Tradition" by G. H. Gerould, which covers the basics in clear English; and for the most concise introduction to ballads, I would refer a newcomer to Emily Lyle's introductory essay in her smashing collection called "Scottish Ballads", published by Canongate Classics.
And, in addition to Wimberly, there is "The Silver Bough" by F. Marian McNeill, which deals with Scottish lore.
Of course, it is quite possible to sing a ballad without reading any of these books - but I find that some knowledge opens out the ballad for me and 'tunes' me in to the mindset of previous generations of singers.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Diva
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 10:04 AM

Especially Gerould I had him welded to my side when I was doing my uni thing. Cracking thread. Just been listening to Lizzie (Higgans)nae fuss nae bother just guid sangs well sung

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Brian Peters
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 02:30 PM

Happy New Year, all. Yes, Diva, this is a good thread. Lots of stuff I agree with strongly - English Jon and Mary on putting together your own version of the ballad, for instance. The more it feels like a part of you, the better job you will make of putting it over.

I want to go back to the subject of instrumental accompaniment (last discussed Dec 30). The idea is propounded regularly in certain quarters that accompaniment inevitably detracts from the storytelling aspect of the ballad. That this is utter cobblers is easily demonstrated by thinking of such fine ballad singers as Ray Fisher and Sara Grey, who tend to use accompaniments more often than not. Of course it needs to be unobtrusive both in volume and complication, it needs to be sufficiently well-drilled as to require little or no concentration, and it needs to be used on the right ballad. Even somone like me, who's fascinated by the interplay of voice and instrument, would regard certain ballads as being inappropriate for accompaniment. Others ballads, though - the less emotionally-intense, more swashbuckling kind - will actually take quite flamboyant accompaniments without complaining.

Jim mentioned above MacColl's vocal techniques for retaining audience attention over the course of a long ballad. The instrumentalist has even more weapons in the locker: a switched chord, a drone, a more insistent rhythm or a picking-up of pace can convey a change of mood without the listener realising quite what's happened.

As for instrumental breaks, I'm afraid I have to disagree with GSS ("the only purpose instrumental breaks have is to show how good the instrumentalist is... it is one of the most stupid things I have ever come across"). My old friend Charlie Baum has it right: things like the passage of time, a switch of narrator, a battle, etc. can usefully be marked by an instrumental passage. That's not the same thing at all as popping in a quick set of jigs to stop people getting bored.

Ultimately it boils down to a question of taste. I quite agree with points made above that different ballads and different singers will require or adopt different approaches. There is no right way to do it. However, I do reserve the right to cringe and make derogatory comments (privately, of course), when someone really murders a good ballad!

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 03:11 PM

Happy New Year to you too Brian.
I think you are right that instrumentation doesn't inevitably detract from the storytelling aspect of the ballad, but on the other hand, it certainly can and quite often does.
I once attended a lecture given by Tony Rose at C# House on the subject where he argued that (to paraphrase - didn't record it unfortunately) ballads always needed accompaniment whereas it wasn't necessary for (what he called) 'patter songs' - have spent the last thirty years working that one out - still haven't. I think he, Martin Carthy, Nic Jones, and other performers of that ilk have ruined more songs than they've enhanced with heavy-handed or unnecessary (albeit extremely skilful) accompaniment.
Peggy Seeger, who is, in my opinion, one of the best accompanists on the scene, once described the role of accompaniment as similar to that of a stage set, an unobtrusive addition against which the text can be presented - sometimes desirable, even necessary, but on other occasions totally surplus to requirements. A matrix in which to present your song, should you feel it necessary.
I don't believe MacColl's technique applies in the same way, as the voice is essential to the song where accompaniment, at best, can only ever be a desirable addition. Even the vocal techniques I described can (and have been on occasion) destructive if badly applied.
My opinion anyway.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Richard Hardaker
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 03:18 PM

I was interested to see Jim Carroll cite George MacDonald Fraser's "Steel Bonnets", which I have recently re- read, as a background text for the border ballads. Conversely, the ballads themselves dramatise the human aspects of the historical record.
Singing them I feel like a time traveller, moving back 400 years and getting into the mindset, the devil-may -care fatalistic attitude and ambiguous morality of the border reiver.

It helps that living in Cumbria I know the territory. I have cycled that lonely road past Askerton and Bewcastle and over the Kershope Burn into Scotland; I've stood on the stump of the Armstrong Tower at Mangerton which figures in at least four ballads. And on a beautiful autumn morning I looked south to the lakeland fells from the Gallows hill at "Harribee" in Carlisle with the chill realisation that this was the last view seen be so many, like Hobbie Noble who ended their days there.

All this has become part of my inner landscape, the cinematic backscene in my mind's eye when I am performing the ballads. The trick I am still working on is how to communicate this to an audience who may not know the border country and its history.
Richard Hardaker

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 03:25 PM

I once asked Ewan MacColl in the bar at the Princess Louise at the interval of a Ballads & Blues evening in about 1957 why he had just sung Eppie Morrie unaccompanied whereas the previous week he had done it with a driving accompaniment from Peggy's banjo: "Is it just how you happen to feel?" Unhesitatingly he replied, "Yep, that's all; just how I happen to be feeling."

If it was good enough for Ewan...

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: Goose Gander
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 03:35 PM

I got a ukulele for Christmas and, surprising enough, it makes for a nice accompaniment for some ballads. I been working on False Lamkin, Child #2, and Valley of Knockanure. Whether or not this is something I'll ever want to do in public remains to be seen.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 04:04 PM

Can I throw in something not exclusive to ballad singing, but noticable because of the length of some ballads?
Don't know what other people call it be we used to refer to it as four-square singing.
It is when a singer breaks up words of songs by hitting each syllable with a note of equal length; (sorry if that's convoluted) it it probably on of the most common barriers to listening to singing for me nowadays.
It makes Liverpool come out as Li-ver-pool and London as Lon-don.
It just came into my mind as I was watching (and have just walked out of) a televised concert of exile songs where the singer sang E-rin's Love-ly Home - just like that!!!
We recorded field-singer after field-singer who told us, when we asked, that they tried (as they put it) to sing as near as they spoke, in other words, in speech patterns; as far as I'm concerned, essential to communicating narrative. They also told us that when the sense of a sentence carries on over more than one line they would not put in a gap, or if a long line made one necessary, they would take a snatch-breath in order to maintain the sense of the narrative.
This type of problem can arise when the singer allows the voice to follow the accompaniment, (particularly rythmical) rather than to lead it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: jennyr
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 04:21 PM

Glad to see this is still going on!

While I agree with Brian and Jim in principle, I think an instrumental accompaniment can quite easily detract from storytelling if the performer is not exceptionally skilled. Personally, I would only currently attempt to sing and play at the same time in the privacy of my own home, because I can't play well enough to enable me to concentrate on the story and convey it well.

Also, my husband says that he finds it nearly impossible to listen to the words of a song if it's accompanied, because his brain naturally focuses on the music instead. He might have a very special brain, of course, but I can't imagine it's that rare.


On another point entirely, a lot of the comments above seem to imply that a relaxed audience with its eyes closed must be bored and/or asleep. This worries me a little as that is my preferred way to listen to a song I'm really enjoying. At my regular singaround, the highest compliment that can be paid to a performer is a room full of closed eyes, followed by a hushed silence and then some applause.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 02 Jan 10 - 06:56 PM

I see much good sense in the recent postings.

I'd like to pick up on Jim's point about "four-square singing".

I confess that I can't entirely follow his description, but I do have a similar dislike for singers who break up a word or a line inappropriately. A common fault is to take a breath at the end of a musical line instead of at the end of the verbal phrase that comes one or two words later. (I would quote a specific instance but I can't recall it right now.)

I have heard recordings of source singers where they stop for breath in an obviously wrong place, even the middle of a word. But I'm prepared to believe that that happened because they were heading for what would have been the right place to breathe but just couldn't get that far when they were old and short of breath.

Richard

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 10:31 AM

A word in defence of four-square singing. In these degenerate times a lot of us are learning the songs either from accompanied versions - which have a definite rhythm, but not one that's driven by the voice - or else from unaccompanied versions sung in that psalmodic style Anne Briggs used to use, where each line hangs in the air separate from the others and the beat of the music gets lost completely*.

With that in mind, I often find that singing "four-square" is a great help when I'm learning a song - it gives me a real sense of the shape of the tune & how the words fit in and around it. It also helps get me out of a bad habit I have with songs in 4:4, which is letting the stress fall consistently slightly behind the beat (a bit like Radiohead's Karma Police, for them as knows it). But I agree with Jim that "four-square" isn't a good performing style - I use it as part of the process of getting to grips with a song, not a final reading.

*O what's the matter with you my lass...
And where's your dashing Jem-my...

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 12:10 PM

Four square singing
Richard; that's exactly what I'm talking about - put far simpler than I did.
Pip - ok if you can confine it to practice, but I find that it is exactly then when you develop your singing habits. I know this from when I return to songs I learned in the early days when all my singing was four square. I actually abandoned one of my favourite songs 'Go To Sea No More' because of it, and am only now getting it back the way I want it.
With respect to Anne Briggs, who I admired very much, I would guess her breathing at the ends of lines is more to do with her singing in head-voice which takes twice as much breath as natural voice, forcing her to take more breaths.
Thanks for input.

And now for something completely different:
One of the things I noticed about ballad singing, my own included in the early days when I was singing regularly, was the tendency to concentrate on the spectacular to the detriment of the subtle.
I have always had a fondness for supernatural songs and tales, yet I found myself seeking out and choosing to sing and listen to the ones that had as their main subject, the eerie and unworldly and tending to overlook those where he supernatural was there, but taken for granted by the ballad makers and singers. Ballads like 'King Henry' and 'Willie's Fatal Visit' can be entertaining enough in their way; a little 'Grand Guignol' for my taste, but that's me. Nowadays I find they don't compare to say, 'The Grey Cock', which, when you examine it, is fundamentally about the final parting of two lovers, one of whom just happens to be dead. Having spent the night with her dead lover, the heroine doesn't run screaming to the nearest mad-house when she finds she's been sleeping with a corpse, as she would in a Hammer or Roger Corman Film. Rather, she asks him to hang around, and the final, apocalyptically phrased refusal verse must be one of the most spectacularly beautiful in the whole of ballad poetry:

"Oh Willie dear, oh handsome Willie,
Whenever will I see you again?"
"When the fish do fly, love, and the seas run dry love,
And the rocks they melt in the heat of the sun".

It's like comparing the two films on the same subject made in the nineties; the rather heavy-handed 'Ghost', where the villain is dragged screaming down to Hell by shadowy demons, and the, IMO, far superior 'Truly, Madly, Deeply' which has the over-mourned husband coming back to life with a few of his dead mates, watching old classic films on the television and complaining about the cold, then returning to whence he came, leaving his wife to get on with her life.
The same is true of 'The Unquiet Grave'; there is nothing bizarre or frightening about a grieving woman having a conversation with her dead lover and trying to persuade him to let her join him.
Both of these songs, while placed in a supernatural setting, are really about the suffering of and coping with great loss, a subject as significant today as ever it was.
I believe that the ballads; the folk song repertoire as a whole really, no matter what setting they are presented in, are basically commentaries on the human condition; that's why, I believe they still have something to say.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 12:13 PM

When learning a ballad, I find it helps to have a sense of the basic ballad verse format:-
                . _ . _ . _ . _
                . _ . _ . _
                . _ . _ . _ . _
                . _ . _ . _                           ( _ representing the rhythmic stresses)

I then work with the melody so that it sits on these pulses, and then I work with the text so that the significant words in each line will fall on the pulses.

Obviously, it's not always an immediate match, so that involves some adjustment which might mean altering the text, or settling for the occasional anomaly, which breaks the pattern and helps hold an audience's interest.

For example, a version of 'The Queen's four Maries' has a verse:-
               Last NICHT four MARies made Queen MARy's BED
with too many syllables for the basic pattern, but if sung with a sense of the pulse - rather than to a strict rhythm or time signature - it will carry the listeners because it's telling the story.

It all goes back to what Jim Carroll said in a earlier post -- "Sing it as you would speak it."

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Brian Peters
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 12:14 PM

"I think he [Tony Rose], Martin Carthy, Nic Jones, and other performers of that ilk have ruined more songs than they've enhanced with heavy-handed or unnecessary (albeit extremely skilful) accompaniment."

Hang one, Jim, you're talking about three of my early ballad influences there! But each to their own.

Good comments about conversational style in singing. I've been known to make workshop classes recite song verses as if conversing - it's an interesting exercise. It's also interesting to try to sing a song with the word lengths governed strictly by the note durations, and hearing how awful it sounds. However it's actually quite difficult to sing every word of a song precisely as you would speak it, and in practice it ends up being some sort of compromise. It's also worth remembering that highly ornamented singing, like sean nos style or that of your own Bill Cassidy, is working in the opposite direction to the conversational, with the ornamented syllables being stretched right out.

jennyr - regarding musical ability, what you say is one good reason for keeping accompaniments simple.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 12:35 PM

I strongly disagree with Brian Peters[re instrumental breaks]
If I was a Story teller, and I was halfway through my story,I would not bring out a snare drum and do a two minute impersonation of Buddy Rich,it just interrupts the story,and distracts the listener,neither would I start juggling halfway through the story,or taking my clothes off and doing a strip tease.
Ballads are like stories,and [imo]do not need lengthy instrumental solos.perhaps a short two bars or four bars bridge at the end of a chapter,but that should be it.
however, I would also say this,it is possible to accompany ballads well, but easier[imo]to sing them well without any accompaniment,the singer has only one thing to concentrate on,the singing of the song.
working out a suitable accompaniment to a ballad and putting the two together requires twice as much work,as singing the ballad unaccompanied and is therefore[imo] twice as difficult,that is not cobblers ,but fact.
yes I do sing ballads with accompaniment,and without,again depends on my mood.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 12:44 PM

first lesson in accompaniment is that you are accompanying,here are two clips,that illustrate this perfectly, a superbly sung old smokey.
two singers that really get inside the song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGTCZJ-RBPw and this even better Zeeke Morris.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzoA4AaZi44

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 12:57 PM

The important thing about a ballad is telling a good story. Sometimes great length is needed and sometimes a more concise version does the trick.

There's a native American ballad called "Elk River Boys"or "The Murder of Jay Legg" that derives from the details of an actual murder in West Virginia in 1904, and is sung in many versions in a small area of central West Virginia. I'd heard eight-and nine-verse versions that never grabbed me, but it wasn't until I listened to a field recording of Henry Bowers, who had honed the tale to five verses that I wanted to learn it. Henry Bowers threw out all sorts of extraneous detail and polished the nugget. My version (I had to restore a missing half-verse where the field recording skipped when they digitized it) takes maybe one minute to sing, but still produces the "wow" you can get from a longer ballad.

I'm not saying that all ballads should be short. Complex tales take many verses to relate. But if each verse pushes the narrative along, you'll maintain the attention of the listeners to your tale.

For me, one thing that loses my attention in a story will be detailed descriptions of ships fit only for an audience of sailors, or precise details of battles fit for soldiers. Your interests may vary, but those things bore me, and i wouldn't include them in anything I sing--if they bore me, how much moreso would they bore an audience that has to listen to me, singing about those details without conviction or care.

My advice then, is to sing a version you can sing with conviction. If you include many old verses merely because they were collected in Child or Bronson or wherever, then you're singing it as a museum piece, and museum pieces tend to bore lots of folks other than historians and antiquarians. If you include the verses because they interest you, then you've got verses you need to tell your tale. Don't be afraid to trim or translate. Make it live by making it your own version of the story, and you can tell the story to most any audience.

--Charlie Baum

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Smedley
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 01:12 PM

The mention above of 'The Grey Cock' reminds me how much I love the very non-trad version of it that Eliza Carthy sang with Salsa Celtica. They renamed it 'Grey Gallito', sang the refrain words in Spanish & put it all to a Cuban rhythm. I dare say that taking all these liberties would not find favour with some of you, but it's an amazing track and has(IMO) Eliza's best-ever recorded vocal.

And I enjoy it as an alternative 'take' on the tradition, not a replacement of it.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 03:40 PM

"But each to their own."
Indeed Brian. It was not my intention to detract from any of those performers, I think they all have their merits, and you would have to travel a long way to find somebody who has done as much for folk music as Martin Carthy. That said, I have been revisiting recordings of all these singers recently to see if my opinion has changed at all; I find it hasn't reeeealy.
I am convinced that they all approach the songs as pieces of music rather than narrative, which is not what I am looking for. Martin actually puts in extra sung syllables into much of his singing which I find extremely irritating, but as you rightly say, "each to their own."
"recite song verses as if conversing"
It's a great way of work. In our workshops while working with a singer we used often to stop them at the end of a verse and tell them to recite the next verse. When working on my own singing, the first half dozen times I worked through a new song I recited rather than singing it to familiarise myself with the phrasing.
It is quite difficult to sing every word as you say it, but it is possible to shift emphasis onto words that need stressing and thus utilise the tune - overstressing 'and' and 'the' and 'but' type words is a real turnoff for me.
The old Clare singer, Tom Lenihan summed it up when he said, "do it as near as you can". Four squaring used to be one of Ewan's early problems, though he worked on it quite extensivley. I really noticed it on his Manchester Angel - he breaks up the second word on the very first line 'co-ming so the first syllable sounds as if he's trying to be sick!
"Bill Cassidy, is working in the opposite direction to the conversational,"
Bill's way of singing is interesting - as you say, not conversational. I always thought that he had been influenced by the Sean Nós style, but I have found an interview we did with one of his relatives, 'Pop's' Johnny Connors who sang in a similar style, but not as skilfully. He explained that the family learned many of the tunes to their songs from grand-uncle Johnny Doran, the piper and the style some members of the family were lifted directly from that. Johnny gave us a long session describing how the piping technique influenced his singing.
As far as all the Travellers are concerned, talking about singing style was fascinating as so much of it was shaped by street singing and ballad selling. Mikeen McCarthy said that his family sang in three different ways; one for pub singing, one for ballad selling,("slow enough to make a song last as long as the street") and then that done around the caravans at night which he called 'fireside singing'.   
Richard Mellish;
"I have heard recordings of source singers where they stop for breath in an obviously wrong place,"
I think you are quite right to put this down to age and shortage of breath. If you want a classic example listen to Phil Tanner's recording of Banks of Sweet Primroses, which he makes a magnificent job of, until he comes to the last line of the last verse when he actually runs out of puff and takes a breath.
One of the best singers we recorded, blind Travelling woman Mary Delaney, always used to make us play back her recordings and she invariably got upset with herself and said "Damn the bloody fags and booze!"
If you want to hear a source singer singing like he speaks - listen to Sam Larner's Butter And Cheese and All where, on the penultimate line he sings "The dogs they barked, the children screamed, out flew the old women and all" - then he interrupts the narratibve by saying "And you know what they are, don't you" - which is totally seamless to the singing.
Getting carried away again - must go - Wallander's on telly.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 03:53 PM

I remember once seeing Sam Larner sing B&C&A at Ballads & Blues in Princess Louise days. He not only made a great long monologue of "You know what old women are, don't you? You know what they're like, har har har", &c - he actually made a sort of production of taking out his false teeth & putting them in his pocket before beginning the song, saying "Ah, that's easier — this is that sort of song where you need to feel easy, you know." Only time I ever heard him live; it must have been about 52 years ago but I have never forgotten it.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: GUEST,Gordeanna McCulloch
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 05:24 PM

Thoroughly enjoying this thread but it's taking me a while to read through - very slow reader.
Glad to see Jim Carroll thinks the Big Boys are treated with too much reverence. I do too. They should be respected, but singing some of them verbatim would take a bit of doing. But above all they should be enjoyed. I've been singing them for 40+ years and still do so whenever I get the chance. These big songs are stories - and stories are, I believe, what make us. To my shame I have never done a great deal of research on the ballads but I love them and believe that changing the words slightly or altering the tunes to fit are not horrendous crimes. How else did they evolve, grow and travel to so many countries in so many different versions?
These big songs are not only enjoyable and "meaty" to sing they teach us that there is often a payment to be made for our indiscretions.   
In singing ballads my preference is to fit the tune round the words - ie follow the rhythms of speech rather than tune. This to me gives a more satisfying result for both singer and listener. Like Brian and Jim, when Anne Neilson and I run our ballad workshops we encourage people to speak the words over as though it were a piece of prose and find the stresses that naturally occur in speech. Then start fitting the tune around it. It's what Anne and I have done for more years than either of us care to remember and I feel we both sing these Big Fella's tolerably well.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 05:35 PM

Charlie,
Some excellent advice there.
To those of us who love the evolved ballads, in the vast majority of cases we know oral tradition has greatly improved on the often lengthy originals by removing extraneous material like unnecessary detail and description. Often in the past academics and literature scholars have seen this as corruption of some original piece.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 05:55 PM

Jim,raises an important point about ornamentation.
firstly,when a singer sings unaccompanied it is natural to put in more ornamentation,than when he/she is singing with chordal accompaniment,I know I sing differently unaccompanied[from the ornamentation aspect than when I accompany myself], the interpretation does not differ more, in fact accompaniment can be used to heighten the story,a difficult skill but one that is satisfying when it works.   
   however unaccompanied singers can make the mistake of concentrating on ornamentation above everything else[we are not helped by the idiotic Comhaltas judges,who give more marks for ornamentation above any other consideration,b..... f .....]
so, a singer can get the erroneous idea that the sound is more important than the interpretation of the story,it is not.when it comes to ballads it should be story telling through the medium of music , it is not just about making a beautiful instrumental sound.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Cuilionn
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 06:05 PM

As another newish Ballad-tackler, I'd advocate the gourmand approach to start: surround yourself with as many recordings of, and books about, balladry as you possibly can. Autobiographies of singers are useful too. Gather it all in, soak it up, submerse yourself in the richness and range and variety. Pay attention to the voices and styles that hold YOUR attention...ponder why and how. Then try out a few...sing a few verses of this ballad or that until you find one that seems ripe for you to embody.

To my way of thinking, embodiment is important. Work, work, work (or play, play, play) at acquiring those words, those lines, those verses and refrains, those audience-grabbing cadences, but also do your best to present a ballad with all of your being, thrumming with the harmonic and narrative power.

Yes, each singer will make technical adjustments as they deem necessary or suitable, but it's important to treat the songs like beloved elders: bow to them, honour them, and crawl right up into their laps and throw your arms around them if you can. Don't argue with them before you've developed an affectionate relationship. (BTW, I am one of those who believe it IS possible to get your ego out of the way, humble yourself, and become a host or a vessel for music that is more ancient and powerful. I've felt this ego-surpassing power in the presence of a few ballad singers--especially Sara Grey, with her eerie, spare clawhammer banjo accompaniment, and Scottish tradition-bearers Alison McMorland and Geordie McIntyre, at whose feet I would happily sit (and join in on refrains, if welcomed) for ages!

I would heartily recommend Alison & Geordie's recordings for the liner notes as well as their fine, engaging singing. They've done a great deal of song-and-story-gathering from source singers themselves, as well as painstakingly documenting the lives and work of some of these singers. (You can track down their work here.)

In our household, we are blowing the dust off a lot of old albums just now...endeavoring to learn and re-learn some of these Big Boys (and Big Girls!) is our mutual New Year's Resolution.

Blessings,
--Cuilionn

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 06:25 PM

More excellent advice above, but here's another approach, an ancient one if we believe the scholars: I have been singing ballads and songs for forty-odd years and had a rest from the big ballads for about 20 years but in the last couple of years have come back to singing them in a new way (to me). I select a tune and refrain I like and then from my memory of listening to lots of different versions over the years piece together a version without referring back to any one version, keeping it concise. I also remake the songs each time I sing them. So far it has worked on The Cruel Mother and The Two Sisters. About a year ago I did a workshop with a Norwegian singer and we swapped versions of Tvo Seostres, a moving experience.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 07:00 PM

With respect to Anne Briggs, who I admired very much, I would guess her breathing at the ends of lines is more to do with her singing in head-voice which takes twice as much breath as natural voice, forcing her to take more breaths.

Perhaps. I loved her recordings when I first heard them, but these days I hear a reverential quality in her delivery which I find quite off-putting. And I hear an awful lot of pauses, to the point where the melody breaks down into a series of beautiful phrases. I much prefer the almost metronomic timing of a singer like June Tabor (or Tony Capstick).

I like the work of both Tony Rose and Nic Jones, and have learnt several songs from their records, but I agree that the accompaniment is generally very important on their stuff - Nic Jones in particular is a very poor model for an unaccompanied singer.

Pip - ok if you can confine it to practice, but I find that it is exactly then when you develop your singing habits.

It's a step on the way. I need to hear the beat of the tune before I can sing it in any style at all. A good singer will break the regularity of four-square timing, but I think to learn songs like The Recruited Collier or Reynardine the way Anne Briggs sang them - as a series of lines, without any beat or forward momentum - would be to get into an even worse habit.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 10 - 07:48 PM

"These big songs are stories"
We had a very odd experience back in the mid-seventies with a couple of elderly brothers we were recording here in Clare.
Between them they gave us around 15 songs, all well sung, complete and textually excellent, all narrative songs, including several classic ballads (the very rare elsewhere, but common to this area Suffolk Miracle among them). At least half of the songs were sung to the same tune. At the end of the sixth song (by then about 4 had the same tune) one of them grabbed my sleeve and said "Isn't that a beautiful air?"
After that we met several singers to whom the only importance of the tune was that it carried the words efficiently - they considered themselves storytellers whose stories happened to come with tunes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jan 10 - 04:42 AM

".....on the often lengthy originals by removing extraneous material like unnecessary detail and description."
Sorry to be a bore about this Steve.
I don't know if there has been any new evidence presented on this since we last argued, but with respect, we know nothing whatever about the 'originals' of the ballads. We certainly know that many of them were taken up by broadside printers, but this certainly is no indication whatever that any of these were originals. The forms the ballads take, the insider knowledge of folklore, the use of vernacular, social familiarity and values.... everything suggests the ballads to be pure folk creations and not those from outside the communities in which they were current.
I don't know if there is an 'author's' name attached to 'Lord Randall'; I do know that Bronson made a valiant argument for it having originated with Sir David Dalrymply b.art, Lord Hailles; he didn't convince me either I'm afraid.
Jim Carroll