BS: Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 05:09 PM

MG of H, I have acknowledged from when Jim first raised this a year or more ago that the IDF should have done something to stop the massacre.
I said their inaction shamed them.
Jim knows that, but it is not enough for him.

He attacks me and calls me names just for asking for evidence of actual complicity.
Evidence that he does not have.
I suspect that it does not exist, but my mind is open.
No prejudice from me.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 05:42 PM

So there was collusion, but complicity has not been proved to your satisfaction Keith.

There have definitely been eyewitness reports of involvement by Israeli personnel which would amount to complicity, going even further than merely holding back from intervening in what was known to be a massacre. Whether these reports are credible is not something which can be decided by a squabble on a Mudcat thread. But they should not be dismissed because they do not fit in with the desired narrative.

Maybe sorting out the truth will have to wait until a peaceful settlement has been reached, and the conflict is history. Not in our time.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 06:00 PM

I am not dismissing anything.
I am just asking for any evidence of actual complicity.
For that I am called "reverse Holocaust denier."

Jim actually does dismiss any questioning of actual complicity.
Why are all your rebukes directed at me, and none at him Kevin?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 03:32 AM

Those who have an irrational hatred of Israelis will not be interested in this version of events.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Lebanese Christian Phalangist militia was responsible for the massacres that occurred at the two Beirut-area refugee camps on September 16-17, 1982. Israeli troops allowed the Phalangists to enter Sabra and Shatila to root out terrorist cells believed located there. It had been estimated that there may have been up to 200 armed men in the camps working out of the countless bunkers built by the PLO over the years, and stocked with generous reserves of ammunition.

When Israeli soldiers ordered the Phalangists out, they found hundreds dead (estimates range from 460 according to the Lebanese police, to 700-800 calculated by Israeli intelligence). The dead, according to the Lebanese account, included 35 women and children. The rest were men: Palestinians, Lebanese, Pakistanis, Iranians, Syrians and Algerians. The killings came on top of an estimated 95,000 deaths that had occurred during the civil war in Lebanon from 1975-1982.

The killings were perpetrated to avenge the murders of Lebanese President Bashir Gemayel and 25 of his followers, killed in a bomb attack earlier that week.

Israel had allowed the Phalange to enter the camps as part of a plan to transfer authority to the Lebanese, and accepted responsibility for that decision. The Kahan Commission of Inquiry, formed by the Israeli government in response to public outrage and grief, found that Israel was indirectly responsible for not anticipating the possibility of Phalangist violence. Israel instituted the panel's recommendations, including the dismissal of Gen. Raful Eitan, the Army Chief of Staff. Defense Minister Ariel Sharon resigned.

The Kahan Commission, declared former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, was "a great tribute to Israeli democracy....There are very few governments in the world that one can imagine making such a public investigation of such a difficult and shameful episode."

Ironically, while 300,000 Israelis demonstrated in Israel to protest the killings, little or no reaction occurred in the Arab world. Outside the Middle East, a major international outcry against Israel erupted over the massacres. The Phalangists, who perpetrated the crime, were spared the brunt of the condemnations for it.

By contrast, few voices were raised in May 1985, when Muslim militiamen attacked the Shatila and Burj-el Barajneh Palestinian refugee camps. According to UN officials, 635 were killed and 2,500 wounded. During a two-year battle between the Syrian-backed Shiite Amal militia and the PLO, more than 2,000, including many civilians, were reportedly killed. No outcry was directed at the PLO or the Syrians and their allies over the slaughter. International reaction was also muted in October 1990 when Syrian forces overran Christian-controlled areas of Lebanon. In the eight-hour clash, 700 Christians were killed-the worst single battle of Lebanon's Civil War.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 03:39 AM

"I am just asking for any evidence of actual complicity."
You are asking for evidence for an affair that, as far as most of us of us are concerned is done and dusted.
The fact that you have to ask "What enquiry" is evidence enough that you have not even bothered to read the links that have been posted - two enquiries took place following the events, one independent, one by the Israelis - I have no intention of doing your work for you - go and read them.
You are not "just asking for any evidence of actual complicity", you have given a conclusive opinion on the extent of Israeli troops involment in the massacre 'a failure to prevent it from happening' - historical whitewash, nothing less! That is not "asking for evidence"; it it an outright rejection of work that has already been carried out, without even bothering to present the reason for that rejection.
Where is your evidence for rejecting Fisk's latest work (he gave an on-the-spot report of the massacre at the time and has obviously followed up his earlier experience) - what are your ground for scepticism?
Apart from anything else, there is no reason to disbelieve the conclusions drawn from the massacre - you have a list of similar events actually carried out by Israeli troops - go and read them (and maybe challenge them).
I haven't followed up the Tzipi Livni/British Government affair - in 2009 an arrest warrant was served on a former Israeli Foreign Minister for war crimes, which she intends to challenge by visiting Britain thanks to the present government having changed the laws regarding war criminals - it would seem 'the beat goes on'.
It is apparent that we are not going to be given your "evidence" for "cultural implanting" of "all male Pakistanis" so we can safely assume that it doesn't exist and these are your opinions alone.
"Why are all your rebukes directed at me,"
Because of your persistence in making racist statements - Muslims, all male Pakistanis, Travellers "over-reperesentation in slavery - all grist to your particularly nasty little mill.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 04:11 AM

an affair that, as far as most of us of us are concerned is done and dusted.
You brought it up in this thread Jim.
Or do you just mean you have closed your mind on it?

I have read Fisk's initial report.
He does not claim Israelis took any active part.
He wrongly believed that parachute flares are delivered by aircraft.
They are not.
They are from hand launched rockets or mortars which the militia had.

No report i have found, and certainly none posted here, found Israeli active participation.
You are making that up.

I have made no racist comment about Pakistanis, Travellers or anyone else.
You would demonize me as you do Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 05:10 AM

---all grist to your particularly nasty little mill.
Jim Carroll---
.,,.,..,
And what of your own nasty antisemitic little mill, eh? Your persistent employment of terms like Nazi & Holocaust in this context is precisely covered by the locution

             "Jew-Bating"

the term notoriously used by Mosley & his Blackshirts in the 1930s for their charming activities.

That is what you are doing, Jim ~ YOU ARE "BATING".

Can you honestly not see it?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 05:20 AM

It is apparent that we are not going to be given your "evidence"

Given in my post 12 Oct 11 - 04:25 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 06:29 AM

Perhaps, Carroll, if your father had lost 20+ of his first cousins {my grandmother told me the exact number but I can't recall it precisely after 65+ years} in the real Holocaust, you wouldn't bandy the word around in this context with such delightfully insouciant abandon ---

or am I, as you so charmingly put it some posts back, merely

'crawl[ing] behind [my] "anti-Semitism" defence completely'

you unmitgated little racist swine?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 06:38 AM

Why do you insist on prolonging this Keith - you have the evidence - you have dismissed any part in the Israeli invovement without evidence, yiou have made your comments about Pakistanis, you have suggsted Travellers as being slavers, you have shown yourself fr what you are
Leave this thread for decent, honest discussion.
"Jew-Bating"
You really have slid down the "anti-Semitism slime hole Mike.
After a comment you made earlier I took the trouble to renew some of my old Jewish acquaintences in Manchester to see how they felt about the situation in Palestine.
Their feelings were summed up by one response "the greatest contribution to anti Semitism since the war has been made by the various Israeli governments"
You have shown that to be the case.
I, nor anybody I spoke to believed the Israeli authorities to be representative of the Jewish people as a whole - you apparently disagree.
If you are right, then god help us all.
Jim arroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 07:02 AM

The accusation that some of Israel's actions bear comparison with Nazi atrocities is of course a hurtful one, but I'd question whether it can be termed anti-semitic, since it only makes sense because the person making the accusation is appealing to a shared loathing of what the Nazis did to Jews (and gypsies etc).

A more relevant comparison, where the parallels are less distant, is sometimes made to apartheid South Africa - where some of the most active opponents of the system were members of the Jewish community, though at the same time the Israeli government at times had a somewhat different relationship to the regime.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 08:00 AM

Keith - you have the evidence - you have dismissed any part in the Israeli invovement without evidence, yiou have made your comments about Pakistanis, you have suggsted Travellers as being slavers,

The Israelis deny any active involvement.
To accuse them requires evidence, unless you rely on bigoted prejudice against Israelis.
Tell us how you know they did it, then we will know they did it too Jim.
I dismiss nothing.
My mind is open, yours closed.

No-one has yet been convicted under the new antislavery laws.
Some Travellers have been charged.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 08:52 AM

"Jew-Bating"
You really have slid down the "anti-Semitism slime hole Mike.
After a comment you made earlier I took the trouble to renew some of my old Jewish acquaintences in Manchester to see how they felt about the situation in Palestine.
Their feelings were summed up by one response "the greatest contribution to anti Semitism since the war has been made by the various Israeli governments"
You have shown that to be the case.
I, nor anybody I spoke to believed the Israeli authorities to be representative of the Jewish people as a whole - you apparently disagree.
If you are right, then god help us all.---Carroll

You know that to be my position also ~~ I will repeat what I have already posted at least twice

---From: MtheGM - PM
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 05:23 PM

And let me repeat here something I said in a previous post ~~

"I am embarrassed and horrified by what the state of Israel is in danger of turning into; even my sister & her son [who was born there], who maintain their Jewish & Zionist identity which I don't, are having serious reservations" ~~

I hold no brief for the actions or attitudes of the present government of Israel, find many of their actions and policies entirely unacceptable and culpable, and dissociate myself unreservedly from them.

But I do expect accuracy in statements that are made: and ones which question the right of Israel to exist legally are so manifestly absurd as to cast much doubt as to the motivations, intelligence, and general bona fides of those uttering them.---

And so, I would add to that final sentence, is the vocabulary of Nazi & Holocaust which you persist in employing. I say again, they are
    DELIBERATE BATING
on your part. Did you ask these Jewish friends of yours in Manchester how they felt about such provocative and disproportionate comparisons made to the actions of the government of Israel and clearly intended to be offensive to Jews in general? ~~ if you did not originally so intend them, you know now that that is their effect; but you continue to insist on them.

I would add that I am grieved to have thus fallen out with you. It has deprived me of one of the remaining pleasures of what must, by any reckoning, be regarded as my few remaining years of life. But there are bounds that no one of principle can possibly tolerate the overstepping of, and you have overstepped them; not once but again and again, deliberately, provocatively, intentionally, BATINGLY.

How dare you address me in the tone of your opening sentence copy/pasted in the extract above!

If this post departs from the coherence and clarity which it always my aim to achieve, I apologise. But I am profoundly distressed and shaken by the intransigent attitude you have elected to adopt, and the pertinacity with which you endeavour to defend its acceptability.

I leave it to others to judge which of us has slid down a "slime-hole".

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 09:19 AM

MIke
My comments throughout have been aimed at the Israeli government's behaviour towards the Palestinians.
"I am embarrassed and horrified by what the state of Israel is in danger of turning into"
Too late for such embarrassment - the Israeli state was born to the sound of "freedom fighters" slaughtering families to clear the way for the new Israel - those massacres have continued.
Your accusation of "Jew baiting" is beyond contempt - you are skulking behind the victims of Nazisms as a platform to defend the indefensible - you have finally sunk to Keith's level - you really should be ashamed.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 09:29 AM

Have the last word, Jim. I have done ~~ apart from repeating my invitation for any others who have bothered to follow all this to identify which of us it is who occupies the 'slime hole'.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 10:25 AM

I have exchnged views with people whose sympathies lie wholly with the Palestinian people.
I have commented in previous threads how hate filled are all jim's posts on any topic involving Israel.
I have always thought it went beyond any rational, objective consideration of the issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 10:39 AM

Indeed, Keith. Anyone who can describe the events of 1948, when the newly proclaimed infant state, existing in UN-sanctioned borders which it made no attempt to extend until attacked, had to defend itself against the combined armies of 6 hostile neighbouring states, in such terms as

'the Israeli state was born to the sound of "freedom fighters" slaughtering families to clear the way for the new Israel'

is someone with serious problems.

Poor old Jim. I daresay he means well, & probably inherited his irrational, subjective antisemitism, which he so alarmingly refuses to recognise in himself but which must be patent to any disinterested observer, from somewhere.

And then he has the gall to cry shame on those he so irrationally abuses.

Alas!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 10:41 AM

"hate filled "
The only "hate" I have expressed is for racism and racists - you're top of the list.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 01:00 PM

Still in denial about own racism, you see, Keith. Or perhaps some suppressed self-hatred emerging?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 02:16 PM

Opinions don't have to be based on hatred. They can be based on other things..ignorance of all the facts, indoctrination, following the crowd or the perceived guru, or actually having more facts, or a desire for fairness across the board or any other number of factors. Sometimes quite external factors..like someone said if someone has your baby in one hand and a bayonette in the other you are likely to change your opinion or at least pretend to quite quickly. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 02:40 PM

It is OK to hate an evil.
Most here would hate injustice and unfairness.
That obviously includes racism.
Hating people is different.
It hardly comes as a surprise that I am at the top of Jim's hate list, but to be hated is not nice.

I have disagreed with you Jim, and challenged some of your cherished perceptions.
I think you hate me for that, because I have never posted anything racist, because I am no racist.

Look again at the post you keep going on about, and the posts I followed it with.
And ask yourself why you hate the Israelis so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 03:40 PM

This is getting a bit silly. Accusations being thrown through cyberspace like it's a barroom...

Whatever they may have said or being understood as meaning, it's very clear that neither MtheGM, Jim Carrol or Keith are racists or anti-semites or anything of the kind.

Wash out your mouths...

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 05:34 PM

"....it's very clear that neither MtheGM, Jim Carrol or Keith are racists or anti-semites or anything of the kind."

According to who's definitions?

Many in the Jewish community consider the equating of Israel's actions with that of the Nazis as anti-semitic. They also regard attacks against "the Zionists", the "state of Israel", "the government" etc. as thinly disguised substitutes for attacks against "the Jews".

I would suggest that you do some research into "the new Anti-Semitism" to inform yourself of how the Jewish community defines it, not how some loud mouth bigots on a forum do.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 06:13 PM

MGofH, it is a greatly consoling to me to receive that endorsement from you.
Thank you Kevin, but I have had "racist racist racist" shouted at me for month, after month, after month by Jim Carroll, and you kept silent until the tables were turned on Jim Carroll.
But thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 12:09 PM

"Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" towards having sex with under-age girls.
This is a racist statement - whoever puts it forward has put forward a racist statement - whoever puts it forward as a personal belief without researched documented evidence is guilty of perpertuating a racist stereotype.
Even if this statement had been taken from elsewhere (no source or quote has yet been given either for "all male Pakistanis" or "culturally implanted tendency", therefore we have to believe that it is solely the opinion of the poster) it would still be a racist statement and, as the poster has declared it to be his personal belief, it would accurately represent the opinion of the poster.
Rather than complain of being called racist for making such a statement it would be far more convincing if the poster either;
a. Proved that this was not a racist statement.
b. Proved that he had not posted it and it was not his opinion.
Take your pick.
I know this statement to be racist because another poster told me of a similar statement; ("ALL MALE JEWS have a cultural implant which makes them inclined to usury") that "Persisting in uttering accusations and comparisons which you know, because you have repeatedly been told so & have admitted that to be their effect, are peculiarly offensive to all Jews"
To claim one of these not to be offensively racist, yet the other to be racist is hypocritical in the extreme, and to suggest that either is not racist is being an apologist for racism.
As far as my own racism is concerned - are we to conclude that criticism on any national government can be regarded as racist?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 01:45 PM

Just confirming that the above was me - just in case anybody wished to suggest that it was somebody posting using a false name - as has happened in the past.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 02:45 PM

whoever puts it forward has put forward a racist statement

It was put forward by eminent Pakistani people well known as anti-racists and as defenders of their community against bigotry.
So perhaps that is your mistake.
It is not racist as you believe.

Either way, it is not unreasonable or racist to assume such people know what they are talking about.
As you would believe a specialist's diagnosis.
As you would believe a meteorologist's weather forecast.
It would not make you a meteorologist or a doctor.
I am not a racist.
Allibhai-Brown, Saffiq and Ahmed are not racists.
I do not believe their statements were racist.
I see no reason not to believe them.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 04:07 PM

"It was put forward by eminent Pakistani people "
By whom and can you give the quote?
Are you claiming that this claim has been researched, as would be any outlandish claim by a meteorologist or a doctor - can you provide the details of the research or are they just passing an opinion - lots of other experts took great offence at what they did say, and for the life of me I can find no mention of "cultural implant" or "all male Pakistanis - have I missed something.
If there is nothing to back it up it is a racist statement and it isyour opinion "I now believe..."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 05:03 PM

By whom and can you give the quote?
Are you claiming that this claim has been researched,

Jim, all three of them, and Jack Straw, and Anne Cryer, separately stated their beliefs that various aspects of culture led to the problem under discussion.
Do you deny that Jim?
Obviously there is no one quote.

The research in the case of Straw and Cryer was a career spent representing large Pakistani constituencies.

In the case of the three Pakistanis it was a life time of service to the Pakistani communities they were born into.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 05:25 PM

It is well over 24 hours since there was a post on the subject of Palestine.
This thread is being kept alive by Jim, seeking to restart a closed thread discussion.
I suggest, Jim, that you continue your campaign privately using the pm facility.
I will still answer all your challenges.
The same old answers to the same old challenges obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 05:37 PM

Pay no mind to Carroll, Keith. He is stuck in a great glass house clutching stones labelled Nazi & Holocaust and would do well to button his antisemitic gob.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 03:55 AM

No quote, no research, (surely necessary for such a profoundly dangerous and all-embracing accusation) no specific statement, no "cultural implant" evidence, no "all Pakistani males"..... nothing but your own stated opinion.
That's what I thought = it is your statement and yours alone, the logical conclusion of which is that in every street, town, city, country where these 'potential perverts' live we have to carefully monitor the behaviour of our Pakistani neighbours and lock away our daughters because all male Pakistanis are potential "culturally implanted" statuary rapists who have to resist their cultural impulses in case their natural impulses surface
"labelled Nazi & Holocaust"
I have asked for proof of this - like Keith's bile, none has been forthcoming and you continue to defend the indefensible with your dishonest and extremely cowardly cry of "Jew baiting".
If you have any evidence whatever that I, or any here who find the behaviour of the Israeli authorities repulsive and unacceptable, have at any time attempted to blame the Jewish people as a whole, please present it.
Nobody, certainly not me, has labelled as "Nazi & Holocaust" the actions of Israeli governments - I have said that there are comparisons to be made, on a lesser scale certainly, but similar in objective and effect.
You have chosen not to challege, therefore to support with your silence, (garnished with the occasional cries of "Jew baiter" and "anti-Semite") the fact that British troops left Palestine to the sound of Arab villages being ethnically cleansed, you have ignored the continued killing and maiming of civilians (in two cases the massacre of up to 3,500 men women and children refugees, which Keith has demoted to 'military incompetence'), that have taken place, the wall that has been built across legally occupied (and vitally important to provide sustenance for the people living there) land, the ghettoisation, the attempts to starve an impoverished third world people into submission with a sweeping and spiteful embargo, the murder of relief bringers, the continued use of heavy artillery and chemical weapons in built-up areas, the evictions to make way for Israeli homes and tourist centres - all remincent of similar acts carried out in pre-war Germany, former Yugoslavia, Chile.... and anywhere where one dominant political, religious, ethnic group attempts to impose its political, economic, cultural will on another.
Nobody here has attempted to touch the proposed visit to Britain of an ex- Israeli foreign minister with an arrest warrant for war crimes hanging over her.
Added to this, you have (rightly) described the stereotyping of Jews as 'cultural usurers' as racist, while at the same time defending similar racist stereotyping of Muslims as "non-racist - - "anti- Semite Jew baiter" - I think I can live with that from such a dishonest and cowardly hypocritical source!
If you have any proof of "Anti Semitism", or "Jew baiting" from anybody here, please produce it, but I suspect that the result will be the same as requests for Keith's "cultural implants" or "all male Pakistanis".      
It is significant, to me at least, that the only support the Israelis have for their opposition to Palestinian statehood has come from an intended veto by the world's most powerful nation who has proved itself not averese to using similar tactics against impoverished third-world peoples.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 05:48 AM

... nothing but your own stated opinion.

It was not and is not my opinion.
I have neither the knowledge nor experience to form such an opinion.
It was the opinion of all those eminent people.
And they are not racists, are they Jim?

The weather forecast is also not my opinion, though I do now believe it.
Last time I was diagnosed it was not my opinion either, but I do now believe it.

You have not, and could not find any racism in my posts.
Yet you just 'know' I am.
Pure prejudice.
Not being a racist, you have no reason to hate me, but you can't stop hating.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 05:52 AM

Jim, all five separately stated their beliefs that various aspects of culture led to the problem under discussion.
Do you deny that Jim?
DO YOU DENY THAT JIM?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 06:44 AM

"It was not and is not my opinion."
"Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" towards having sex with under-age girls."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 06:59 AM

PS
"Jim, all five separately stated their beliefs that various aspects of culture "
I HAVE BEEN UNABLE TO FIND ONE SINGLE REFERENCE TO THE STATEMENT THAT "ALL MALE PAKISTANIS" CARRY A "CULTURALLY IMPLANTED TENDENCY TO HAVING SEX WITH UNDER-AGE GIRLS" - Please produce one or admit to the fact that it is your statement and your opinion alone
Jim Carrol

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 07:53 AM

Just because I believed it, as I said "only because" of the eminence and knowledge of those saying it, DOES NOT MAKE IT MY OPINION JIM.

I am no meteorologist.
Believing meteoroligists' stated opinions does not mean that I have formed an opinion based on meteorological data too!

Jim, all five separately stated their beliefs that various aspects of culture led to the problem under discussion.
DO YOU DENY THAT JIM?

If you do I will make you look ridiculous again by reposting their actual words.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 08:40 AM

You have yet to to provide either a source or an actual quote for your claim, making it yours and yours alone.
Many people have made statements on Pakistani involvement in underage sex, for and against your claims - you have chosen to produce those FOR and ignored those AGAINST - proving nothing - please feel free to repost what you choose and please include the warnings against drawing racist conclusions from their statements, including that from Straw and from the police investigating those crimes, - WHICH YOU HAVE CHOSEN TO CONTINUALLY IGNORE THROUGHOUT THESE DISCUSSIONS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 02:07 PM

None of that is true jim.
Those 5 were in all the media then (late jan / feb).
I can still provide examples.
You will never be able to produce alternatives because there were none.
In the thread I asked many times for another theory.
None was provided, except Don produced one of his own.
If I am lying, put up an alternative.
(No chance Jim. You made it up.)

You have yet to to provide either a source or an actual quote for your claim, making it yours and yours alone.

I provided the 5 sources of the opinion.
It never was a claim.
I told you literally dozens of times I was not interested in why they did it.
For some reason that was all you wanted to talk about, but without any suggestion of your own.
I made no claim.
I reluctantly said what I believed only because Don directly asked me.
It was not a claim and I was never interested.
Deny that Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 02:26 PM

My post, 31st Jan, well before "Don, I do now believe....but only because...

I did not offer the explanations of Straw, Cryer and Ahmed over those of others.
No other explanation has been offered.
It is like a taboo.
Also no one has found fault with those suggestions.
Obviously they can not be proved, but how is it justified to dismiss them out of hand?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 02:35 PM

I think you have humiliated yourself enough Keith.
Once again I've allowed your vaccuous arguments to nause up another thread by responding to the - apologies to all, if there is anybody still alive out there.
Now if you can't provide a source and a quote to back up your claim of "culrural implants" infecting the entire "male Pakistani" population - please ****** off and shut the door behind you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 02:52 PM

The idea that aspects of culture led to the problem under discussion came separately from Cryer, Straw, Ahmed Saffiq and Allibhai-Brown.

THOSE ARE THE SOURCES JIM.
Which bit do you not get?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 02:57 PM

"THOSE ARE THE SOURCES JIM."
And not one of them mentoned "implants" or "entire Pakistani male populations", and two of them warned specifically against racists like yourself using the figures to make racist points.
Sorry -really have gone now.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 03:14 PM

Oh FFS!!! Get a Room!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 03:56 PM

So you finally accept that those 5 said that aspects of culture led to the problem.
The culture is experienced by all within the culture.
OK Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 04:48 AM

two of them warned specifically against racists like yourself using the figures to make racist points.

Another personal slander against me, but not true about them either.
All 5 went public because they wanted the issues out in the open and discussed.
A final lie Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 06:24 AM

Keith
Leave this alone,
We've fucked up yet another thread between us.
I'm sure people have had a bellyful of our bickering, and have (more than) enough information to make up their own minds on the rights and wrongs of all this, presuming they are the slightest bit interested.
Just piss off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 07:33 AM

29th Sept. My post
"We argued it out at the time.
You have brought it into every thread we have been on since.
Why?"

1st October. My post
"Or when that same person resumed the discussion of a closed thread so that child abuse in N England was discussed on this thread!

I was the only person who questioned the relevance.
You let him get on with it unchallenged. "

12th October. My post
"All this has been explained to you many times since February.
Why do you keep on? "

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 08:01 AM

"Why do you keep on? "
Because I detest racism and I believe that describing the male population of an entire cultural community as being prone to statuary rape because of their culture is as racist as it gets and will continue to challenge it when it it is claimed and excused.
I believe Israel, if not completely, well on the way to becoming a fascist state prepared to commit atrocities and war crimes to further its political ends, that is why I brought up what I believe to have been an anti-Muslim statement (made by you), up on this thread.
I agree with those we have driven off this thread that we have once again allowed our argument dominate and destroy another thread but this does not make a racist statement (in this case, yours and nobody elses) any less racist
For me, it ends here until the subject of racism raises its perverted head)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 08:53 AM

I believe that describing the male population of an entire cultural community as being prone to statuary rape because of their culture is as racist as it gets and will continue to challenge it when it it is claimed and excused.

If anyone ever does that I will challenge them with you Jim.
Now, if you have finally shut up, there is an event of current interest.
The exchange.
An innocent young soldier illegally abducted and held in isolation with no outside contact or even Red Cross/Crescent visits will be released after years of confinement.
In return, hundreds of convicted criminals and terrorists are to be released from their humane conditions of confinement in prisons subject to inspection.
They include the mass murderers of ordinary people and children.

Hamas claimed this as a triumph of arms.
I see it as a triumph of humanity, generosity and compassion.