BS: Forgive Judas?

Subject: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 12:28 PM

"Forgiving Judas: The Ultimate Test

Ask any serious Christian about forgiveness, and you are likely to hear what Jesus taught—that we are to forgive others, not once or twice, but countless times; that God only forgives us to the extent that we forgive one another. Yet later, Christians made one famous exception: Judas Iscariot.


For thousands of years, Christians have pictured Judas as unforgivable--the incarnation of evil. Motivated by greed and inspired by Satan, he is the betrayer whom Dante placed in the lowest circle of hell. Only one famous Christian teacher, so far as we know, suggested that Judas could be redeemed and forgiven.

The Egyptian teacher Origen, recognized as the most brilliant and original teacher of his time (c. 240 CE, and, some would say, of all time) offered a vision in which all beings ever created—including Judas and Satan himself—could turn and repent, and eventually be restored to full communion with God. For this teaching above all, Origen himself was condemned as a heretic by Catholic councils—posthumously, fortunately, since over a hundred years earlier, his death had been hastened by torture he suffered for confessing his faith in Christ."

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2007/04/forgiving_judas_the_ultimate_t.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 12:42 PM

I dunno, BB...seems to me any faith or creed which could prompt someone to go around killing people on it sbehalf is kinda loopy.

Anyway, as far as Judas is concerned, there is reasonable evidence that he was dispatched to his work by Jesus, in order to fulfill the Mission. I don't know of course, but from what I have seen of messianic leaders it is perfectly possible.

But even if he was just as wicked and treacherous as modern Western Xianity has painted him, why the hell NOT forgive him? The thing these hardasses seem to overlook is that the being will not easily step out of the pattern of conduct of his sins UNLESS he can find some path to confronting and forgiving himself, which is grreatly aided by forgiveness from others.

Hell, even murder in the first degree only gets one lifetime in these parts. This poor sunuvabitch has been bouncing around being condemned for nearly two thousand years!!! I'd say that constitutes cruel and unusual punishment, and is therefore unconstitutional.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 12:44 PM

Hey, IMO he was just doing what God wanted him to

But it is an interesting article. I did not include it all- there are links to her book in it as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 12:48 PM

Without Judas (or someone filling the role) there would have been no crucifixion and no resurection. He filled an essential role in Christianity. I have never understood why he is vilified by the same people who needed him to exist in order for them to be who they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 01:04 PM

Ah, there's just no satisfying some people.

Anyway, let's forgive the Wicked Witch of the West, and Handsel & Gretel's stepmother while we're at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 01:07 PM

Well, of course Judas should be forgiven. Everyone should be forgiven. Origen had the right idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 01:11 PM

The Wicked Witch of the West got a bum rap, she was pretty nice when you got to know her.

Anyway, it was her parents fault, how did they expect her to turn out with a name like that?

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 01:16 PM

I thought her real name was Betty-something ... ?

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 01:20 PM

"The Wicked Witch of the West, as portrayed by Margaret Hamilton in the 1939 film The Wizard of Oz"

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 01:22 PM

No, I don't mean the actress; I'm talking about the original witch. Before she was all that wicked, and lived in New York City.

Wait a minute - you're not telling me it's a made-up story, are you?

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 01:22 PM

Author Gregory Maguire's successful 1995 revisionist novel Wicked: The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West takes the familiar Oz story and turns it on its head, with the Wicked Witch as the novel's protagonist and Dorothy as a hapless child. The Witch is named Elphaba and, while the moods of the book and the musical are different from each other, it is shown that she is not wicked. Born with hydrophobic green skin and shunned because of her differences, Elphaba is a misunderstood child who grows into a brooding and very mischaracterized young woman. Maguire's story was developed into a Broadway musical, Wicked, in 2003. Idina Menzel won the 2004 Tony Award for Best Leading Actress in a Musical for her portrayal of Elphaba. 2005's Son of a Witch is the sequel to Wicked, focusing upon Elphaba's purported son.

from wikiaedia

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 01:26 PM

There now! I'm not the only one who wants to forgive her!

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 01:28 PM

"Wait a minute - you're not telling me it's a made-up story, are you?"

Of course it isn't made up, I read about about it on the internet so it must be real.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 01:28 PM

In the Christian myth is was necessary to pose an enemy to the faith. It's been a Christian pattern for years prompting, finally, the Crusades. The Judas character was created to do just that. You needed some patsy to make the story complete. It's a good technique used in TV writing or movies.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 01:50 PM

I guess I do understand how it happened but it still amazes me.

Maybe Judas is the key to the whole thing, forgive him for the unforgivable and you go to heaven.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 01:53 PM

So, there is no-one in heavan?

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 01:53 PM

(except God, of course...

A VERY lonely God.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 02:03 PM

LOL! What a conundrum.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 02:21 PM

Was Judas forgiven? Heck if I know. I'd like to think so. I'd also suppose it entirely possible within the protestant/anabaptist theology with which I was raised.

I selfishly root for the notion of forgiveness because I find myself so often in need of it. I don't believe my Christianity to be based upon my goodness -- rather, on undeserved grace. A grace I hope for all.

That said, it is most often those who are not believers in Christian doctrine who find the problematic disconnect between behaviors and responsibility that, while not part of true Christian doctrine, certainly ends up being the pragmatic product of a belief in grace. Said another, more simple way -- it seems that so often those who believe in a Gospel of Grace seem to find an unwarranted liberty in that grace to be utter shits. I don't think they are the rule, but they are common enough that they seem to be the standard by which many non-believers frame their veiw of Christians. It plays into what non-believers want to believe about Christians and, ultimately, Christianity.

And so, if I chose to believe that man's responsibility for good behavior can be utterly divorced from the grace that saved him, most non-believers would cry "foul!". Rightly so. So in that manner, I can't just dismiss Judas' guilt. I can't just dismiss Judas guilt any more than I should dismiss my own. It would lead to an illogical disconnect -- and illogical conclusion of where the grace provided me should ultimately lead me.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 02:42 PM

I haven't read all the posts. I can only answer what I think about this myself. Caution-- Anglican answers are seldom short. :~)

I think that there are several kinds of forgiveness, and that the ultimate and most powerful forgiveness comes from God, in His own time and judgment, and that His forgiveness is not up to me and not something I can expect to know about. So that part is between them.

Another kind of forgiveness is the most personal kind, where someone has wronged you and wants to be forgiven by you. Speaking personally, sometimes I am not ready to forgive. But that does not preclude the person from seeking God's forgiveness. I recognize that His forgiveness is more powerful than my own, for their healing, and I hope that they confess their fault sincerely and gain His forgiveness. Mine, I will give when I can, and for me it seems necessary for their request to come from an effort to gain true understanding of the harm they did and the wrong they commmitted, not against me but against God and His purposes for them and for the situation within which they acted. If they say they are Christians but do not understand what His purposes may be, I sometimes have suggested the means by which they may gain that understanding. I am certainly willing to wish them the best in doing that.

But sometimes the seeking of "forgiveness" is merely the self-comforting effort to get out from under self-examination and responsibility-- the desire to smooth over a mess without looking inside to see where their own views or actions may be in need of growth. They are reaping the brokenness in relationship that their actions have sown. It doesn't help their growth for me to pretend that there is nothing broken. I'm not going to condemn them-- that's not up to me-- but I can only wish them well in their continued growth and, if they persist, require that they leave me alone.

I have sometimes heard from people, years later, from out of the blue, the story of how they kept seeking inner peace over the incident until they finally looked at the thing that had been hard to look at, and saw it differently, and appreciated that I had not let them off the hook and thereby had not relieved the very discomfort that had led them to keep mulling the matter until they took that deeper, harder look inside that they had been avoiding.

There is something else that some call forgiveness, that I think of more as intercessory prayer. One example of that is this-- when I think of the whole Lucifer story, I can only respond compassionately by hoping for that angel's repentance, restoration, and reconciliation... for God's forgiveness of Satan himself. I'd forgive him, if he genuinely asked. I might not invite him into my home, but I'd forgive him, if it was genine repentance.

Repentance-- now there's another concept our society is very mixed up about! First, remorse and repentance are not the same thing. Remorse, guilt, and feeling bad are not repentance. Repentance is an action of turning around and going in the other direction, back to the place where one went wrong and taking the better direction. Repentance means turning around. It doesn't mean beating oneself up. One can repent without beating oneself up. And one can be sorry-- express contrition-- without making oneself out to be a bad person, a weak person, a lesser person than the person God made them to be.

Some of my best repentace has come as a result of joyfully rediscovering the higher purpose God has had for me, or the higher view He has had of me than I sometimes have had of myself. And in those moments, of COURSE I've been spontaneously sorry for doing something stupid, even something I could not have known not to do. Even doing the best we can in any situation, we can do wrong that is regrettable, and we can make the decision to do better in future. And that is part of repentance.

Forgiveness absent repentance is not guaranteed. Not by God, and not by me. There's a the Biblical lesson about "how many times are we to forgive?" "Seventy times seven." (In other words, abundantly.) But that doesn't mean that the offender doesn't have to ask, first, and ask out of repentance and a desire to repair the brokenness their actions caused. What that lesson says, to me anyway, is that we are all fallible human beans and we all develop in slow stages. Along the way we are likely to do the same dumb things over and over until we learn that they are dumb and until we set a better direction. And each step may involve acknowledging that we messed up, and wanting another chance. For me, as long as I can see that the other person is genuinely trying to move in an upward direction, I think I owe them all the patience in the world that I can muster. But if there is no repentance-- no acknowledgement from them-- I'm not going to stand around and wait to get run over again, either. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 02:43 PM

"they are common enough that they seem to be the standard by which many non-believers frame their veiw of Christians"

Also, they are the ones going around advertising that they are (supposedly) "Christians". The ones who are quiet about their beliefs do not become part of the equation.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 02:45 PM

There was a 1977 television mini-series entitled "Jesus of Nazareth," directed by Franco Zeffirelli, with a really superb cast. Robert Powell played Jesus.

Jesus is sitting a garden when a man walks up to him and says that he would like to join him. He introduces himelf:   Judas Iscariot (Ian McShane). Jesus says nothing for what seems like minutes while he gives him a long, searching look, almost a mixture of speculation and dread. Then he says, "Yes. I do have a use for you."

Was Judas forgiven? Yes, I think so. He was just doing what he was supposed to do.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 02:47 PM

"not against me but against God and His purposes for them and for the situation within which they acted."

And did not Judas do exactly what God had intended for him to do?

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 02:50 PM

Don,

crossposted.


8-{E

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 02:51 PM

"And did not Judas do exactly what God had intended for him to do?"

So, are you saying that you don't believe in free will, or that I shouldn't?

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 02:53 PM

I do not tell others what to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 02:54 PM

Then you're saying that you don't believe in free will?

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 02:58 PM

So, YOU are saying that Judas, by DOING what God wanted him to, committed the unforgivable sin: And if he had NOT done what God wanted him to do, he would have been forgiven?????

As for free will, THAT is anoher debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 03:08 PM

Why not forgive? After all, it says in the New Testament that Judas repented of his betrayal, even though he hung himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 03:12 PM

"As for free will, THAT is anoher debate."

No, it's not. It is very much -- the very core -- of this one. Judas did exactly what he willed to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 03:21 PM

One advantage of being endotheistic (recognizing theproduction of God from within) is that you can't turn grace into license,because responsibility is strongly coupled with any divinity existing in the first place.


I just made up the terms endo- and exo-theistic today, modeled on biologists who talk about animals which are endothermic (they generate heat from within their bodies to adjust to the environment) and others which are exothermic (they have to find sources of heat from outside). Sometimes they say "ectothermic" which means the same thing, as far as I can find out.

I like 'em.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 03:22 PM

It's always been my impression that Judas thought he was doing the right thing at the time. He may even have thought that Jesus wanted him to do it (which may be so), and that the plan was really for Jesus to demonstrate some mighty godlike power and save himself at the last moment and defeat the Romans. Judas seems to have been a social revolutionary, and to have been frustrated by Jesus not taking on the civil authorities of the time head to head.

All this, however, is just speculation on my part, okay?

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 03:23 PM

OK, then.

IF one does NOT have free will, the God who would hold one responsible for one's acts is not a God *** I *** would want to exist, under any name.

If one has free will, but will suffer eternal torment unless one makes the "CORRECT" decisions ( like believing in a specific version of God), but can avoid responsibility for one's actions by bribing ( with prayers, contributions, and such) some deity into forgiving one's sins, what does it matter what we do?

If one has free will, and bears responsibility for one's OWN actions, rather than the belief that one will go to heaven for one's belief alone, THEN a person chooses to act in the manner that person percieves ( correctly or not) gives ones the most benefit- be it satisfaction, wealth, emotional comfort, power, etc. Where is the free will in that?

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 03:34 PM

Occam's razor would dictate that if you believe in free will you shouldn't torture the issue in such a way as to introduce the "compulsion" of God -- a compulsion that you don't, yourself, believe in.

But because you insist upon introducing that compulsion (even though you believe in free will) indicates a contrarian position in which you are merely trying to ensare a "Christian" in an inconsistancy that you have precluded for them. An "inconsistency" that they see as "consistent".

"If one has free will, but will suffer eternal torment unless one makes the "CORRECT" decisions ( like believing in a specific version of God)..."

In the very wording of your question, you prejudge that a specific "God" must be a human construct. If he is, then you are correct. If he is not, you are quite possibly amiss.

"...but can avoid responsibility for one's actions by bribing ( with prayers, contributions, and such) some deity into forgiving one's sins, what does it matter what we do?"

Well, theologically speaking it is because behavior is, at the very least, an indicator of that forgiveness. If one does not exhibit...

love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, meekness -- as well as a willingness to love in spite of being wronged -- and a willingness to do unto others as one would have done unto them

...there is to be no assurance of that salvation -- that forgiveness.

Though there have been MANY different arrangements of cart and horse in that equation (historically speaking of Christianity) there has NEVER been a disconnection between behavior and forgiveness -- at least not a disconnect that wasn't, ultimately, determined "heretical".

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 03:36 PM

THIS:

Well, theologically speaking it is because whether behavior is, at the very least, an indicator of that forgiveness.

WAS SUPPOSED TO READ:


Well, theologically speaking it is because behavior is, at the very least, an indicator of that forgiveness.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 03:50 PM

Occam may have been wrong. See chaos theory.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 03:54 PM

(Occam was a little dry humor interjected into the discussion -- there's very little here other than a little "gotcha" aimed at a strawman Christianity. It's so common here that it's become a little cartoon of reality.)

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 04:09 PM

It's not up to us.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 04:27 PM

Please do not forget that there's a damned good chance that the founding fathers of Christianity as we know it did a hatchet job on Judas just as they did on Magdalene and Thomas.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 04:34 PM

And please do not forget that you are taking other's (antagonistic to Christianity) words for it that the "founding fathers" of Christianity were of nefarious intent. There is plenty of scholarship to the contrary. One chooses to believe the scholarship of one's chosing for any number of reasons -- not all of the strictly....er...."scholarly".

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 04:38 PM

Hatchet job on Mary Magdalen? She's definitely among the most popular saints among Catholics?

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 04:45 PM

...as is Thomas. Is he not, after all, Saint Thomas?

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 05:34 PM

Apostle of India.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 05:45 PM

I don't know about that. I follow the work of the work of the Jesus Seminar pretty closely and the Fellows seem to have pretty solid academic and religious credentials. I also follow the work of other biblical researchers -- none of whom have appeared on television.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 06:22 PM

Rapaire, that is one heavy-duty gathering of theologians! I'm familiar with several of them, having read their writings.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 06:28 PM

That's somewhat amusing. Your scholars tell you that Christianity "hatcheted" Mary and Thomas. It is easily observed that, rather that "hatcheted", they are canonized, yet it causes you to take further refuge in your scholars.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 06:47 PM

Thomas was condemned by the early church because he questioned whether the other apostles had actually seen Jesus after the crucifixion. He continued to doubt until he saw Jesus with his own eyes.

The early church fathers identified Mary Magdalene as a prostitute, although there is nothing in the Gospels that says so.

John, perhaps you shouldn't just write off these scholars without learning a bit more about them, what they've written, and what they say. Most of them have spent their lives in theological study.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 07:03 PM

Don,

Perhaps you shouldn't assume (as is always your way) what I do or don't know about these scholars.

"Thomas was condemned by the early church because he questioned whether the other apostles had actually seen Jesus after the crucifixion. He continued to doubt until he saw Jesus with his own eyes.

The early church fathers identified Mary Magdalene as a prostitute, although there is nothing in the Gospels that says so."

It is merely part of their respective stories. No hatchet.

Mary was known for having been demon-possessed according to the Bible narrative.

Thomas expressed doubt at the resurrection.

Peter denied knowing Jesus (3 times). Additionally, he was two-faced regarding the law and the early church and the relationship between traditional Judaism and the new church.

John and James selfishly vied for position in the kingdom of heaven.

Paul held the robes of those who stoned Stephen.

James chickened out of Paul's first missionary journey.

The story is of redemption. Very few of the disciples, apostles, early followers, were presented as perfect -- and those that were (like, perhaps Stephen) still weren't presented as perfect -- just that their whole story was never told -- only the parts salient to the ongoing story. Presenting them as perfect isn't the point when "forgiven" is the tale being told. And the tale was and is told. The ARE held up, remembered, and revered as saints. They are not hatcheted.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 07:15 PM

bb, as I said, your original question is between Judas and God. I'm not taking a turn pretending I'm God, today. :~)

In my 6-years-plus experience around here, most Mudcat "religion" threads are merely thinly-veiled excuses for attacks on Christianity and/or its believers, past or present. Quite often they amount to a grudge against the Roman Empire. I, on the other hand, wrote in personal terms about an active and thinking faith. I'm not interested in grudge matches.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: Grab
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 08:12 PM

You can't forgive someone who hasn't hurt you, or ask for forgiveness from someone you haven't hurt. Even in a situation where there's current suffering as a long-term result of some long-dead people's actions, any remaining problems today are not caused by the long-dead culprits but by people today who abuse the situation for advantage.

Take the slave trade as an example. Underachievement by black students and higher imprisonment rates amongst blacks aren't the fault of the original slavers. Instead, they're the fault of those biased whites who consciously or unconsciously victimise blacks, or of those blacks who incite criminal behaviour as role models. The causes of both can be traced back to the slavers, but the people doing the damage today are the guilty ones today, and as such are the only ones that someone today has a right to forgive. Forgiving slavery and asking forgiveness for slavery are both impossible, because none of us alive today were involved on either side.

So back to Judas, we can't forgive someone who's already dead. The purpose of teaching about Judas's actions is not to forgive or damn, it's for them to be understood as something to be avoided. Peter and Thomas are the same. Judas teaches not to betray your friends for gain; Peter teaches to hold faith with your friends even when it's dangerous; and Thomas teaches to trust what your friends tell you.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 08:30 PM

John, you assume that I assume, which appears to be your way, and it's pretty obvious that you are not very familiar with the Jesus Seminar. I know a number of pastors and ministers who are following it closely, and with considerable interest.

Is your faith so weak that you are afraid to delve into their questions and examinations of scriptural texts for fear that you'll lose your faith? They are not questioning the basic ideas of Christianity as you seem to think. In fact, if you knew more about what they're doing, it might make your faith even stronger.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 08:59 PM

Don,

I will consider Stilly River Sage (having just met her) and her high regard for you. Thus considering, I will take your insults and ponder them.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 09:35 PM

Please do not think that my use of the phrase "hatchet job" was meant as anything other than to be descriptive of the documented disputes among the Apostles following the Resurrection. See, for example, Acts 15:1 and the debate over the circumsion of Gentiles.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: Nickhere
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 10:06 PM

Umm. My tuppence worth:

The gospels present two different examples of guys who betrayed Jesus.

The one we all are familiar with is Judas. The other is Peter the Apostle.

Judas I understand, repented in the sense that he realised the awful thing he'd done, but too late. He also thought the Pharisees would only arrest Jesus, but not crucify Him. When he realise what he'd done he was overcome with remorse. That would have been fine, God is forgiving (and as Jesus said "forgive 77 times 7 times" in other words, A LOT) and would (my guess) have accepted Judas' repentence despite the awful thing he'd done (which is good news for us sinners!). But Judas took it step further. Not satisfied with asking God's forgiveness, he went and hung himself. Now I know this mightn't go down too well with some, but in Christian theology, what Judas did was to give in to "the sin of despair"

I'm not talking of the kkind of desperation you feel when the whole world is against you, but of the belief that you are beyond God's redemption, so evil are you. this is one of the devil's tricks: make you believe you are so evil you cannot even approach God for forgiveness. Thus you turn away from Him (and salvation) of your own free will. There is an early example of this in Gensis, after Adam and Eve had eaten the apple (which Satan had advised the to do in direct contradiction of God's law - btw the symbolism of all that is too much to go into here). God went to look for them and found they'd hidden themselves away. He asked "why are you hiding from me?" and they answered "because we were naked" (perhaps, in other words, they became self-aware for the first time). Now God's answer is VERY interesting. He does not say "why are you hiding because you're naked" as you might expect but "WHO TOLD YOU you were naked?" (Genesis 3: 8-12)

I find that sentence fascinating, because it indicates to me that (as God knew) the idea that we are naked and must hide from God in our shame came from an outside, evil source that wanted to keep us away from God.

And that's the situation I suspect Judas found himself in. Ashamed, he avoided God and took his own life (which only God has the right to take - hence the 5th commandment).

So he went on a path away from God and continued on this path after death. Thus, though he repented he also believed himself beyond redemption and spurned God (though not in a snobbish way, but in an inverted snobbish way, if you get the idea).

Satan hates us with a vengence - because we, unlike him, can be close to God, and because God loves us. Satan would love us to destroy ourselves.

Judas' sin was against God, so only God could forgive him, and Judas' did not accept that forgiveness which is part of the deal). It's a bit of a red herring to ask Christians to 'forgive' Judas for the same reason, plus someone cannot be 'forgiven' posthumously, at least not in the Christian sense - that kind of forgiveness is only possible in this life (unlike civil 'pardons'). We can forgive the sins of those who sin against us, basically by wiping the slate clean for that person and asking God not to hold it against them on our account.

Peter on the other hand sinned not once, but three times by denying he knew Jesus, as he was afraid of being crucified himself (which should also be good news for us, as it shows us that even Jesus' "number 1 apostle" was a weak man, but made strong through God). Jesus knew Peter would do this "before the cock crows, you will have denied me 3 times" Never! said Peter, but it was so. Peter was overcome with disgust at himself abandoning his long time freind and leader. He went out and like Judas, wept bitterly. But unlike Judas he did not kill himself but sought God's forgiveness and went on to be the cornerstone of the new Christian church.

So those two examples even tell us about our relationship with God.

OK, I know I'm speaking Greek here to some people, and I'm no expert, but the question was posed, and since the Christian act of forgiveness is being mentioned, it can only be explained / answered from a Christian perspective. I have tried to do so as best I can from my understanding and I hope the answer is satisfactory. I reject all attempts to be accused of "circular thinking" since I am trying to answer a question from within the framework from which it was posed ;-))

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: Nickhere
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 10:08 PM

And BTW Susan has already made a number of points that I would have otherwise added (and may I say, did a far better job of it than i would have done)

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 10:24 PM

Good point there, Nick, about the despair of Judas Iscariot (I'm using that name to seperate him from the other Judases, such as Judas Thomas Didymus and Judas Thaddeus, both of whom were also Apostles). We're told that despair is the one sin God cannot forgive, but then again, I suspect that God can forgive anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 10:52 PM

John, it is not my intention to insult you. I don't know where you get that idea. I'm asking you a serious question.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 08:11 AM

You didn't ask me a question, except: "Is your faith so weak that you are afraid to delve into their questions and examinations of scriptural texts for fear that you'll lose your faith?" ...which implies that I am an unquestioning fool, and that I am not familiar with the "questions and examinations of scriptural texts" -- and further, that I am afraid to do so. None of that is true. I've been familiar with their "questions and examinations of scriptural texts" for some time now. None of your assumptions is true, though it is the basis of your "question". Your question was rhetorical and insulting.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 08:13 AM

are/they

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 10:29 AM

I always found it really odd. All Judas did, according to the scriptures, was show the 'arresting officers' which one Jesus was by kissing him on the cheek. Jesus was already 'wanted' by the authorities or they would have been looking for him. He was not exactly in hiding - look at the fuss he had caused the Sunday before:-) By a bit of judicious questioning the authorities would have determined which of the dozen in the garden was Jesus anyway. All Judas did was save his mates from a kicking by the local constabulary.

He obviously didn't realise the consequences becasue when he found out what was happening he was so filled with regret that he went and topped himself.

Now, Peter, on the other hand, in full awareness of his actions, denied that he even knew Jesus. He knew that Jesus needed all the support he could get and yet not once, or twice, but three times he refused to acknowledge the poor blokes existense! All he did was cry a bit about it when it was too late and he was rewarded with biggest job this side of the pearly gates. What a bastard!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 10:43 AM

We can forgive the sins of those who sin against us, basically by wiping the slate clean for that person and asking God not to hold it against them on our account.

I'd like to expand on that one just a bit because it falls into one of those areas that is widely misunderstood. God asks us to forgive not because He needs us to do that before He can forgive, but because it's good for us (practically and developmentally) and good for the building up of the community (in practical terms). And because when we try to approximate His way of seeing things, we tend to see them and respond to them differently that we would tend to react from our own, narrower view.

And there again is an area where believers and non-believers have a value in common-- "the greatest good."

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: John Hardly
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 11:20 AM

"Now, Peter, on the other hand, in full awareness of his actions, denied that he even knew Jesus. He knew that Jesus needed all the support he could get and yet not once, or twice, but three times he refused to acknowledge the poor blokes existense!"

I've always had a certain amount of sympathy for Peter, though. If you read "the rest of the story" you'll see that, rather than chicken out and not stand up for Jesus, just 24 hours previous to the famous denial, he had stood up for Jesus to the extent of even attacking (cutting off the ear) those who were trying to arrest Jesus.

Peter was rebuffed for his aggressive stand -- but he stood. Bravely, too. He just misunderstood. And who could blame him? He didn't have the benefit of reading the end of the book to see how it was SUPPOSED to end. He shared three years and lots of discussions with 12 guys, several of whom were CERTAIN of Jesus royal ascendancy RIGHT THEN. And Jesus, for his part, didn't REALLY correct them. Partly (I'm assuming) because he didn't know himself exactly how it would all play out.

So, having JUST stood up for Jesus -- moreso than any other of the 12 -- and getting rebuffed for it, is it any wonder he was gun shy to make yet another stand? At the VERY LEAST Peter was, at that point, mostly just becoming aware that he didn't understand what he thought he understood. He later understood.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 02:29 PM

I'm sorry you took it that way, John. That was not my intention, and you read much more into it than I meant. If you wish to take everything I say as a personal criticism, then I see no point in continuing this discussion.

But I might point out that in serious discussions I have had one of my favorite pastors (now, unfortunately, no longer with us; he passed away a few years ago), such questions, comments—and challenges—were standard operating procedure. Bruce is the reason my wife and I joined the church that we did. He asked hard questions. Among many other thing, he maintained that if one's faith couldn't stand up to challenges, then it wasn't very strong.

Now, you might want to examine that.

And that's not an insult. That's the kind of challenge that pastor Bruce used to issue.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 10:04 PM

If Judah hadn't given Jesus that kiss, Christianity today would be unrecognizable. If you are a believer, you must believe that if was God's will. As far as Peter is concerned, his denials really didn't make much difference one way or the other. He's the one who's actions were governed by free will and he's the one who was entrusted with the church. Go figure.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: GUEST,Partridge
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 02:29 PM

I do

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 02:57 PM

I thought pope John Paul forgave the Jews for killing Christ.
It was very white of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Forgive Judas?
From: Nickhere
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 08:58 PM

Donuel: "I thought pope John Paul forgave the Jews for killing Christ.
It was very white of him"

He obviosuly hadn't heard that Jesus, his mother, step-father AND the twelve apostles were all Jews as well! He could have been a bit more specific and forgiven the pharisees and their rent-a-mob.

I don't think he personally really held the Jewish people responsible but I suppose what he was really trying to do was finally and officially close the chapter on a rather grey (to dark) area of the Church's history that saw the Jews as being responsible (while ignoring the obvious I stated above). This had been the view from around the time of the first crusades at least when the Crusaders regarded anyone not Christian as fair game. In recent times this stance had been unofficially dropped, but never officially until Pope JP did so.