BS: Death

Subject: BS: Death
From: MBSLynne
Date: 30 May 07 - 01:32 PM

I just wanted to comment on something I've noticed and see what other people have to say. I saw a dead cow today and noticed something I've noticed before. She was lying still in the stall and from the way she was lying could have been asleep but, though I could only see her tail as she was covered with a blanket, having been ill, I knew immediately that she was dead. Alright, there is no breathing movement, but that is often only minimal anyway. There is just something missing from a dead creature that makes it so obviously dead. I assume humans are the same though I've never seen a dead person. The stillness of death is different from living stillness.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Amos
Date: 30 May 07 - 01:36 PM

Well, without getting into controversial metaphysics, I have to agree with you, Lynne, and I have observed the same qualitative difference in human death. A meat body without a "driver" is so clearly just mass, mechanism, inert and about as lively as a cold rock, that it is palpable.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Skivee
Date: 30 May 07 - 01:51 PM

From observing several friend's funerals and the deaths of a few family members, it seems to me that people sorta shrink after death... a balloon deflating.
It makes me wonder whether a soul has volume.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: JennyO
Date: 30 May 07 - 01:56 PM

Reminds me of the first time I saw a dead person. I was 21, and it was my grandfather. They had his body on view in the front room (not something I would choose to do) but I didn't stay long. As soon as I looked at him, my only thought was "He's not there any more".

This wasn't anything to do with religious belief - at that stage I was quite undecided about what I believed. It was just something I immediately sensed - it was just as Amos described it. Thinking about it now, I suppose I would say it's the life force that has left - but that's just my interpretation.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 May 07 - 02:00 PM

When I was five and brought to see my father's body I remember not feeling anything except "That's not daddy." Three years later I felt the same thing at my Grandfather's funeral. Since then I've been to many (too many!) funerals and each time I feel that same way as I did when I was five.

The "person" is gone; only meat remains.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Bee
Date: 30 May 07 - 02:21 PM

Death becomes obvious fairly soon, I think, but certainly not always right away. I was right beside my aunt when she died, and I could certainly not tell the moment she died, and really saw very little, besides, of course, her not breathing, to immediately say 'she is dead.

I think perhaps we are more aware of breath, which is with us continually while we live, than we realise. Breath moves everything; it stirs the hairs on human skin, and the fur on an animal, animates the body, and when it is stopped, that subtle motion ends. Besides that, the flow of blood, another constant motion, stops, and that too is a process I think we notice when it is stopped.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 May 07 - 02:27 PM

I've seen a dead person outside of a funeral - it was after a car-pedestrian crash, and although pedestrian was intact, he was obviously dead, I thought. There was a degree of relaxed-ness coupled with an uncomfortable-looking position...

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 May 07 - 02:27 PM

Or a shell...we took my three year old grandson to the cemetery this past weekend to put flowers on the graves of my mom and other relatives. We had a lovely discussion about crabs and how they choose new shells for their homes and how we believe people do the same with bodies and reincarnation, although I didn't get that wordy or deeply into with him.

I was a little concerned he might be freaked out about people being under the ground, but he was fine and enjoyed placing the flowers. He knew we were there to *see* my mom and grandparents. When I started to cry a bit he came over and said, "Oh, don't be sad. It's alright. I'm not dead." Then talked me into going for a little walk, telling me "it'll be okay."

I have friends who have seen the "silver cord" part from a body when someone passed on in their presence.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 May 07 - 02:57 PM

The thing that strikes me in a dead body is how flat it is.

I haven't seen a silver cord (Wouldn't a "silver chord" be lovely?) but I havebeen practically jostled by unseen beings.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 May 07 - 03:25 PM

My father noted the same thing about many people he saw killed during the war. He said that it was clear the "person" wasn't there anymore...just an inert piece of meat.

He also said that he saw people's souls leaving their bodies at the moment of death. Oddly enough, though, throughout his life he had no spiritual beliefs. I mean absolutely none. Zip. He was simply not interested in anything that was not physical.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Desdemona
Date: 30 May 07 - 04:14 PM

Katlaughing, I really like your crab analogy, very sensible and succinct, especially for children.

For my part, I think of what we're discussing as the presence of absence; a sort of palpable sense of "not thereness." My dad passed away a few months ago, and I opted not to look at the body, because I knew that it just wasn't him; my kids all felt the same way, and I told them that was fine. As far as I'm concerned, it's not much different than opening up the closet and looking at their old clothes.

~D

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: kendall
Date: 30 May 07 - 04:28 PM

The first time I saw a dead person I was about 6 years old. He was a neighbor who used to talk about T. Roosevelt and the Rough Riders. There was a tobacco tin with a picture of a horseman riding a jumper and just clearing the top bars of a fence.
I haven't thought of him in years.
I saw him laid out in his parlor with pennies on his eyes. I was too young for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: MBSLynne
Date: 30 May 07 - 05:03 PM

Ebbie, whenever I hear the phrase 'silver cord' from now on, I will think of it as 'silver chord'.

I've heard a lot of people, including my Mum say that when they've seen dead bodies the person is 'not there'.

Yes Bee, it may be the absence of all the continual movements such as breath and blood. Certainly as I looked at the dead cow trying to work out why it was so obviously dead, it was the total stillness that was noticeable. I guess however still a live thing is, it is never completely still really

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 30 May 07 - 05:08 PM

I saw both of my parents dead and in some ways it was reassuring; they obviously were no longer there. It makes it much easier to deal with when their body is taken away.

I rather like the idea of the soul leaving the body. I'd love to have seen a silver cord.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Big Phil
Date: 30 May 07 - 05:31 PM

Must agree with many of the posts, the human body remains, but there is something missing, be it soul, human presance or some other sign of life. Hard to explain.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 May 07 - 05:51 PM

In the tradition I follow, we call it the Vital Life Force.

Thanks, Desdemona, it makes a lot of sense to kids, esp.:-)

Ebbie, me, too, about the silver "chord"...I shall always think of it that way, now!

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Alba
Date: 30 May 07 - 06:02 PM

The vessel is now left behind and the energy it once contained moves on. That is how I feel when in the compnay of the dead.

The pennies on the eyes is something I remember vividly when looking at the departed when I was young. To pay the Ferryman to get to the afterlife I was told. Seemed to make sense to me then!
Nowdays I see a dead body as void of the Essence/Energy that made the, when breathing, Being who they were.

I like Kat's explanation to her Grandson *smile*

Love and Light as always to all,
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Janie
Date: 30 May 07 - 06:26 PM

Absolute stillness. It goes beyond not breathing. Inanimate.

Literally lifeless.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 30 May 07 - 06:45 PM

All that's missing is a beating heart and a working brain. The brain dies and that's it. The rest is superstition or fear. We are meat like the cows we eat when their heart stops. Of course the person "isn't there", because the brain is dead. We are the same as all our fellow creatures, except we can reason and so we invent "souls". As the original poster points out, there is a stillness and and an absence in a dead cow just like in a dead human.Yes, the cow's heart and brain are dead. There is no mystery. However, if it helps you cope with death to believe there is then I don't see that it does any harm unless it's tied in with organised religion and the damage that does to us all.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 May 07 - 06:48 PM

I dunno - are you sure you're just not seeing what you already know?

Otherwise how would you get all these stories about people waking up on the post mortem table - and it has happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 30 May 07 - 06:59 PM

If they woke up they weren't clinically dead. Obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Greg B
Date: 30 May 07 - 07:02 PM

Well, that's put a bit of a damper on the evening.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Amos
Date: 30 May 07 - 07:06 PM

All that's missing is a beating heart and a working brain. The brain dies and that's it. The rest is superstition or fear. We are meat like the cows we eat when their heart stops. Of course the person "isn't there", because the brain is dead.

I suggest your conclusive judgement may turn out to be premature. Your diagnosis of life as only electro-mechanical leaves huge holes in the picture with no answers except a glaze-eyed retreat into undefined complexity theory. It is perfectly all right NOT to know for sure; but it is a bit abrasive to aggressively know something that very well might not be so.

One reason is that the implications of your perspective are both inexplicable and grim.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 30 May 07 - 07:14 PM

"but it is a bit abrasive to aggressively know something that very well might not be so".

Isn't that the position of people of faith Amos?

Interestingly in the british "Independent" newsaper today scientists report that research shows that animals have individual personalities just like us. All those of us who own pets have known this. So, do animals have souls? Was my cat when she was put down any different to my mother when dead? I felt the loss of both personalities deeply, but either both have "souls" or neither? Take your choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 May 07 - 07:38 PM

It's never an "either/or," there is always a third choice in most given situations. Sometimes we just have to look a little deeper.

As for animals and people...it is my belief everything has a consciousness and is a part of the Divine/Great Spirit, thus it has a soul/spirit.

I really don't like the use of the word "meat" to describe a left-behind body. Most of us are not cannibals, so it rubs me the wrong way. That's why I prefer "shell." Or, I guess one could say "husk."

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: John O'L
Date: 30 May 07 - 07:39 PM

I haven't had much experience with death, but for many years now it has been obvious to me as soon as I knock on the door of any empty house. There is no need to wait. It is clear that no-one's home.

I have tested this several times and have never been wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 30 May 07 - 07:40 PM

"Absolute stillness. It goes beyond not breathing. Inanimate.

Literally lifeless."

Dead as a doornail. Deader'n a mackerel. Done like yesterday's toast.

Elvis has left the building.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: frogprince
Date: 30 May 07 - 09:47 PM

"it's not much different than opening up the closet and looking at their old clothes."
Desdemona, I don't think it's really any different at all. A husk, or discarded clothes... I find either very appropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Janie
Date: 30 May 07 - 09:59 PM

O Death (from the Ralph Stanley version of "oh Brother, Where Art Thou?"

O, Death
O, Death
Won't you spare me over til another year
Well what is this that I can't see
With ice cold hands takin' hold of me
Well I am death, none can excel
I'll open the door to heaven or hell
Whoa, death someone would pray
Could you wait to call me another day
The children prayed, the preacher preached
Time and mercy is out of your reach
I'll fix your feet til you cant walk
I'll lock your jaw til you cant talk
I'll close your eyes so you can't see
This very air, come and go with me
I'm death I come to take the soul
Leave the body and leave it cold
To draw up the flesh off of the frame
Dirt and worm both have a claim
O, Death
O, Death
Won't you spare me over til another year
My mother came to my bed
Placed a cold towel upon my head
My head is warm my feet are cold
Death is a-movin upon my soul
Oh, death how you're treatin' me
You've close my eyes so I can't see
Well you're hurtin' my body
You make me cold
You run my life right outta my soul
Oh death please consider my age
Please don't take me at this stage
My wealth is all at your command
If you will move your icy hand
Oh the young, the rich or poor
Hunger like me you know
No wealth, no ruin, no silver no gold
Nothing satisfies me but your soul
O, death
O, death
Wont you spare me over til another year
Wont you spare me over til another year
Wont you spare me over til another year

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 May 07 - 11:12 PM

When his grandpa died our son, then 7, insisted upong going to the mortuary to see grandpa. No embalming done, and only 2 hrs after death.

We lifted him up to see, and he said.....

Oh, OK. Nobody home.

Out of the mouths of babes.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: JennyO
Date: 30 May 07 - 11:34 PM

Well, when the Grim Reaper comes, I want to take a glass of wine and my car with me, like these people!

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Greg B
Date: 30 May 07 - 11:56 PM

As I was a walking one morning at ease
A viewing the leaves as they fell from the trees
All in slow motion appearing to be
And those that had withered, they fell from the trees

What's the life of a man anymore than the leaves
A man has his season, so why should we grieve
Though all thru this life, we appear fine and gay
Like the leaves we will wither and soon fade away

If you'd seen the leaves just a few days ago
So beautiful and bright they all seemed to grow
A frost came upon them and withered them all
A storm came upon them and down they did fall

If you look in the churchyard, there you will see
Those that have passed like the leaves from the trees
When age and affliction upon us do fall
Like the leaves we must wither and down we must fall

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 31 May 07 - 12:33 AM

JennyO - that's fine, just eat the salmon mousse!

I've seen dead humans and dead animals and that image of deflation is right... both looked sort of... flat. Like looking at a glass of cola that's been left out all night. It's still the same vessel, the same contents, still the same juxtaposition, but it's no longer the same drink. Even if it does still bubble when you stir it, it won't be the same.

Even the morticians' art cannot replace that rounded, vibrant look that even the most decrepit body has. It doesn't matter how good they look, there is still always that something missing. Total stillness is the best description. We're not aware of the tiny movements we make, even when asleep or in a coma.. it's the absence of these that let us truly know that the character, the person, the loving part is no longer there.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: open mike
Date: 31 May 07 - 12:58 AM

when i was keeping vigil with my mom in the hospital for 8 days,
i read Elizabeth Kubler Ross, and some other books. One that was
the most helpful was Ran Dass' Still Here (he wrote Be Here Now)
One of the most vivid images (i have repeated this in several threads
here) was that of a person removing an uncomfortably tight shoe..
that was describing the soul leaving the body -- and it is comforting
to think that this is a relief to the one who passes on...not painful
or a struggle, but a blissful change!

I also sensed some sort of energy, sort of like a cloud or smoke,
hovering above my mother before she passed on. My dad had died
just the week before and it felt as if his spirit was visiting.
I remembered her saying that there was a book she wanted to read
"before she died" so i checked it out from the library for her.
She stayed alive longer than the medical people thought she would,
and i kept wondering "what is she waiting for?" I then realized
that maybe she sensed the absence of my daughters, her grand
daughters who were nearly 2,000 miles away. I began to make plans
for them to fly there, and when one of them was on the phone, i
held Mom's hand and told her the girls wanted her to know they loved
her. Then within a minute she took her last breath. I guess that
completed her circle.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: John O'L
Date: 31 May 07 - 01:55 AM

My dad did that too. At the time he died three of his four children were in different countries overseas. He held out much longer than he should have until we were all there, and as soon as we were he died.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 31 May 07 - 04:20 AM

My grandmother, who raised me, was in declining health in America about a year and a half ago. I arrived from the UK for a visit, my first in over a year, with my daughter on the Wednesday; my uncle arrived from New York on the Saturday. She had us all there: her children, grandchild and great-grandchild. And on the Sunday, with no real warning, she slipped away. Nothing will ever convince me that she hadn't waited for us all, and I felt so privileged to be there at her time of passing.

I sat with her after she died, and before the undertakers arrived to take her away. That wasn't my grandmother lying on the sofa. As everyone else says, it was just a husk, or a shell. I have no spirituality of any kind, but that sense of there being a life force that had gone was very powerful indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Grab
Date: 31 May 07 - 08:44 AM

Lack of a beating heart will probably give you the "shrunkenness". No blood pressure.

Your diagnosis of life as only electro-mechanical leaves huge holes in the picture

Not necessarily. Electro-mechanical could adequately explain it all. So could the existence of a soul. The difference is that the first is subject to investigation to work out the rules (if any exist); the latter isn't. The existence of a soul also explicitly requires religion, because a primary purpose of religion is the explanation of life after death. If you believe in a soul from observation and then have found a religion which proposes the existence of a soul, then fair enough; but if you believe in a soul because that's what your religion tells you, then you're making a judgement based on faith, not evidence. And if you believe in a soul because you can't imagine life without souls existing, again that's faith-based.

This isn't to say that belief in souls is bad or wrong - just that it's entirely a matter of personal faith. The electro-mechanical hypothesis may have holes in it, but anything which comes down to faith is 100% hole because there can never be evidence in its favour.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 31 May 07 - 12:35 PM

There can never be SCIENTIFIC evidence, probably - but if you have seen a soul with your own two eyes, or communicated with a soul, that may be evidence enough for you.

A bit of an analogy - where I live, the "scientific" claim was long that there are no cougars hereabouts (a claim since modified or rescinded, I believe) - however, for just as long, there have been people who have claimed to have seen cougars on backroads, at the edge of their woodlots, etc. Now, if I were one of those people, I would certainly believe that cougars are around here, whatever scientific inquiry finds. Heck, if I laid eyes on a sasquatch, that would be evidence enough of their existence for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Amos
Date: 31 May 07 - 12:44 PM

IMHO a plain look at the attributes of elan vital that cannot be built into computational machinery (except on a shallow, tawdry emulative basis) is revealing.

Understanding
Intent
Sense of Being
Ability to create a vision of reality not previously recorded.

Hell even the ability to genuinely "decide" (not reach a binary conclusion but actually postulate a future of some degree).

These somehow are not things any robot has been able to acheive. Not to mention the sense of aesthetics, justice, and the abililty to see other viewpoints.

Our long and successful history as mechanics and investigators of electromechanical phenomena has committed us to continue to seek models that prove out on those terms, and so we will continue seeking a brain-from-circuits model as the whole answer to being and consciousness. IMHO, this is flagrant ignoral of a whole range of phenomena that does not fit the hypothesis and is dropped from the equation. As far as I am concerned this is just bad science at worst, or perhaps just deferred science at best.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Scoville
Date: 31 May 07 - 01:51 PM

I've never seen a dead anything I would have mistaken for asleep. Even newly-euthanized animals do not look asleep. They look dead. Whoever they were is gone. What's left is just the machinery, not the individual.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,Partridge
Date: 31 May 07 - 02:32 PM

click

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: MBSLynne
Date: 31 May 07 - 03:46 PM

Yes, total stillness describes it, but it's MORE than the stillness of, say, a table or any other object which has never had life. It is a stillness which I don't think I've seen in anything except a dead body.

When my dog had to be put down I held her as the vet gave her the injection and I knew the moment she had 'gone'.

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth..."

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Bee
Date: 31 May 07 - 06:13 PM

I also held my dog as she was euthanised, and even expecting her to be dead, it was the stillness of her body and her unmoving eyes that told me she was gone. Perhaps I'm less sensitive than all of you who sense in some mysterious fashion life has gone, or who see silver cords or souls leaving.

Nevertheless, my grief is just as real as yours, perhaps more so, since I don't expect another meeting.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Pistachio
Date: 31 May 07 - 07:48 PM

Thanks for that 'blicky' Partridge.
The only dead body I saw was my father-in-law, admittedly after his death from cancer. He appeared hollow and vacant. 'At rest'.
I wish I'd never gone to see him then because that is my final recurring image.
Stick to the photos and memories you have.

Mike, John and Ruth - thank you for sharing your 'final farewells'.
Greg, did you write that verse? I always love autumn leaves falling and reading those words has left me feeling strangely relieved. Thanks.
H.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 31 May 07 - 08:28 PM

"Death"

What a great title for a thread. I like it. Simple and straight to the point. There are two GREAT dramatic things in life. Those two are love and death. You ain't got no story worth readin' without 'em. That's my opinion.

I have seen a lotta death. Stiffs are common in my line of work. I have seen death by gunshot wound, strangulation, fallin' off tall buildings or out windows, gettin' run over by cars, trucks, and railroad trains, bein' bitten, bein' stabbed, gettin' blown up, poisoned, squashed, minced, smothered, drowned, and electrocuted. I have seen dead humans, dead gorillas, dead chimps, dead monkeys, dead orangutans, dead baboons, and dead dogs. Too bad about the chimps...

But I guess I would have to say that some of 'em deserved it.

The thing they all had in common was that they didn't have nothin' to say after they was dead. Not a friggin' word.

So if you want some peace and quiet, just hang out with some stiffs now and then.

One more point. If it was not for violent death, I would probably be on the bread line. My most lucrative cases have all involved situations that brought with 'em a certain amount of mayhem.

I concur with what most of the folks here have said. A dead body is just a vacated hunk of meat. The personality that was in it has departed to a better place....or a worse one. That's how I figger it. I got my fingers crossed when it comes my time. I am tryin' to do at least one good deed a day and I don't rob poor boxes or drink when I'm in church. A guy can't be too careful about stuff like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 May 07 - 08:33 PM

"And now you rest in Autumn's radiance
Like the last few lingering leaves
You hear a distant, whispering voice
Carried softly on the breeze
You turn your ear away
You hold on tight, and yet you know
Like the last leaf on the Autumn branch
Comes a time you must let go."

Kathy Martin Fanning

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 May 07 - 08:34 PM

Hmmmm. Not all of thet was delivered. I credited Changin' of the Seasons
Kathy Martin Fanning

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Amos
Date: 31 May 07 - 08:42 PM

Thanks so much for that site!

AN excerpt:

"Some scientists theorize that NDEs are produced by brain chemistry. But, Dr. Peter Fenwick, a neuropsychiatrist and the leading authority in Britain concerning NDEs, believes that these theories fall far short of the facts. In the documentary, "Into the Unknown: Strange But True," Dr. Fenwick describes the state of the brain during a NDE:

"The brain isn't functioning. It's not there. It's destroyed. It's abnormal. But, yet, it can produce these very clear experiences ... an unconscious state is when the brain ceases to function. For example, if you faint, you fall to the floor, you don't know what's happening and the brain isn't working. The memory systems are particularly sensitive to unconsciousness. So, you won't remember anything. But, yet, after one of these experiences [a NDE], you come out with clear, lucid memories ... This is a real puzzle for science. I have not yet seen any good scientific explanation which can explain that fact."

---

"The modern tradition of equating death with an ensuing nothingness can be abandoned. For there is no reason to believe that human death severs the quality of the oneness in the universe." - Larry Dossey, MD "


A

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: KT
Date: 31 May 07 - 10:53 PM

Once, while walking in the mountains, I came upon a large stellar jay on the side of the road. It looked up at me as I approached and I could see that although there were no apparent injuries, it was immobile. Its dark eyes were bright with awareness, and stayed on me as I knelt down nearby. After ten minutes or so, it suddenly gave one mighty flutter of its wings, then became very still. As its wings came to rest again, the light left the eyes as though a switch had been turned off. The shell was still there on the side of the road, but that spirit was gone.

It's the same with people, and all life. When the body that houses them, is no longer of any use to them, no longer needed, they depart.

kat, I liked your crab analogy, too. Ebbie, I like those words!

KT

Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Janie
Date: 31 May 07 - 11:09 PM

Lynne, I wonder if it the total stillness bumping into our knowledge, awareness, and expectation that the form we are looking at is/was inhabited by sentience. The 'deathness' of a mammal body is always very striking, even shocking to me. In descending order, I am much less attuned to the 'deadness' vs. the scentience of birds, reptiles, fish, insects and plants when I see their dead bodies.

I think both our personal relationship and the degree to which we identify with the type of sentience and/or consciousness of a thing that is dead that was alive affects our perception. I have not always been able to tell absolutely whether a goldfish in the tank was actually dead.

When I have held a pet as it was euthanized, the exact moment the life force left the body was unmistakable. I have seen animals violently and instantly killed by cars or dogs, and it was also very apparent and abrupt when death occurred. I held my sister as she died very painfully and fearfully, and have held beloved pets as they died with struggle, awareness, and pain. In all of those instances, with the consciousness struggling, fighting, fearing, the exact point at which the body was totally uninhabited was not so clear. Perhaps the struggle to continue to live in the face of the pain and panic, combined with the awareness of dying led to the sentience of the body not ceasing all at once.

Janie