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Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America?
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Subject: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: GUEST,AR Date: 14 Jun 07 - 12:23 AM Hello, does anybody know whether the Cumbrian 'yan, tan, tithera...', and its myriad regional variants in Britain, survived the passage to the New World, either in North America, the Antipodes or elsewhere? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: Peace Date: 14 Jun 07 - 12:38 AM Not that I've ever heard. Usually we just count the legs and divide by four. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: Amos Date: 14 Jun 07 - 03:37 AM BEat me to it, you wiseguy, you! A |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: GUEST,AR Date: 14 Jun 07 - 03:53 AM I know sheep are funny'n'all, but seriously... I'm really interested to know. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: greg stephens Date: 14 Jun 07 - 04:54 AM From "Postcards" by Annie Proulx (set in Vermont): " Ma, say the old counting thing, the way your grandfather used to count." "Oh, that old thing. That was his way of counting sheep, the old, old style of counting. He used to count the sheep out. See if I can remember it. Yan. Tyan. Tehhera. Methera. Pimp. Sethera. Lethera.Hovera. Dovera. Dick. Yan-a-dick. Tyan-a-dick. Tethera-dick.Methera-dick. Bumfit. Yan-a-bumfit. Tyan-a-bumfit. Tethera-bumfit.Methera-bumfit. Giggot. There! That's as much as I ever knew. Up to twenty." Mind you, this is just a novelist, well used to making things up, and also doing very serious research.Proulx may just have come across this counting system in England and decided to include it in the book. Though it makes sense: northern English emigrants to the States would hardly have forgotten how to count on the way over. But whether they actually used this in America and passed it on is another question. I look forward to American non-novel evidence. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: jimL Date: 14 Jun 07 - 05:22 AM And we don't even know if grandfather was in Vermont or Swaledale! J |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: katlaughing Date: 14 Jun 07 - 11:09 AM After reading Proulx attempt at characterising Wyoming I wouldn't take anything she says as gospel.:-) You might want to contact various university reference departments such as THIS ONE. They do have "counting rhymes" listed and there is an email addy at the end of the page for inquiries. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: RobbieWilson Date: 14 Jun 07 - 11:17 AM Jake Thakery, from whom this all comes says he completely made this all up. it is a fiction. How mny more times? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: greg stephens Date: 14 Jun 07 - 11:22 AM Robbie Wilson: I dont know where you got that myth from, but's it's nonsense. This counting was done in Cumbria and Yorkshire(and other parts too no doubt) long before Jake was a twinkle in his daddy's eye. It derives from the British(Welsh)language spoken there before the English invaders arrived. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: Bill D Date: 14 Jun 07 - 11:55 AM well, I don't don't know if it was ever actually used. I know a couple of folkies that have learned a version, but I doubt that something so localized would be transported and cultivated for actual work. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: IanC Date: 14 Jun 07 - 11:55 AM Greg Whilst this counting system is used throughout England (and probably parts of Wales), there's no evidence that it is Celtic (Welsh) in origin, the words bearing no more relationship to the counting words in Welsh than they do in English. Speculation has it that the words are Brythonic, i.e. from the pre-celtic language of Britain, spoken there before the Celtic invaders arrived. It does appear to have some correlation to place names which are assumed to be pre-celtic. Variations of this system are also used in Shropshire, Lincolnshire and parts of East Anglia too. :-) Ian |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: Peace Date: 14 Jun 07 - 12:10 PM www.lakelanddialectsociety.org/counting_sheep.htm I was unable to get a link to work. However, put that in your browser and give it a look. It leads to an EXCELLENT, scholarly and very interesting article about this subject. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: Snuffy Date: 14 Jun 07 - 04:39 PM It has plenty to do with Welsh - the numbers 11 to 20 follow the same pattern as Welsh: i.e 1 & 10, 2 & 10, 3 & 10, 4 & 10, 15, 1 & 15, 2 & 15, 3 & 15, 4 & 15, 20. See www.answers.com/topic/yan-tan-tethera for versions from various parts of England (Derbyshire, Lancashire, Yorksahire, Westmorland, Cumberland) as well as Welsh, Cornish and Breton equivalents |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: Herga Kitty Date: 14 Jun 07 - 04:46 PM I have to confess that I've never been to North America. But I can't remember seeing American sheep in films or on TV. Cattle and buffalo in plenty, but not sheep! Kitty |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: Goose Gander Date: 14 Jun 07 - 05:23 PM Yes, we have sheep over here! The counting system in question was discussed by mathematician Donald Smeltzer in Man and Number (A & C Black, 1970). Found in the Yorkshire dales, akin to Welsh, supposedly Celtic in origin, etc. But I don't know if the sheep over here were ever counted by this method from over there . . . . |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 14 Jun 07 - 06:08 PM greg Stephens, the counting system did make it across the water. I will have to look it up, but it and a couple of others were reported in "Journal of American Folklore" many years ago. There already is a thread on this, but I am too lazy to look it up. Annie Proulx knows Wyoming well; katlaughing just doesn't like her story of two itinerant homosexual saddle tramps. (I agree, it ain't the straight-shootin' upright cowhand way; but the bums of her story ain't cowboys or ranchers in the hard-working sense of her (and mine) antecedents). All this was in the older thread as well. Peace, that divide by four, I think, in the West was taught to every unsuspecting kid by his parents, about the time he was getting out of diapers. The kids perhaps even believed it for about 30 seconds. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: BanjoRay Date: 14 Jun 07 - 06:16 PM The article given in Peace's link mentions American occurrences of the sheep counting language: Scores have even been found in a number of places in U.S.A. [Cincinnati] een, teen, tother, feather, fib, soter, oter, poter, debber, dick [Vermont] eeni, teni, tudheri, fedheri, fip, saidher, taidher, koadher, daidher, dik These were probably taken to the new world by Cumbrian settlers !! The same article gives a good indication of the Welsh or Cumbric origin of the words. Cheers Ray |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: katlaughing Date: 14 Jun 07 - 07:23 PM LOL, Q! Yer right she doesn't know the WY or west that your antecedents of mine knew, as well as what we knew growing up. And, it wasn't that I didn't like her characters, I hated her writing style and I thought it was NOT authentic esp. in her characterisation of gays of that time, cowboys or not. Can't wait to see what you turn up. There was a WY family direct from Scotland I could've asked a few years ago, but the old folks are all gone now and the kids don't much care. Herga Kitty! You need to watch some old Westerns, girl!**bg** The cattle and sheep men were always at it, as they were in real life. If ya heard old cowmen like my dad, they'd tell you the sheep ruined the range. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: GUEST,meself Date: 14 Jun 07 - 07:30 PM "[Cincinnati] een, teen, tother, feather, fib, soter, oter, poter, debber, dick [Vermont] eeni, teni, tudheri, fedheri, fip, saidher, taidher, koadher, daidher, dik" I seem to remember one that starts, "eeni, meeni, minee, moe ... ". |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: Herga Kitty Date: 14 Jun 07 - 07:35 PM Kat - I do remember this as a theme in old westerns, but for some strange reason I don't remember seeing the sheep! Kitty |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 14 Jun 07 - 08:26 PM More digression- Part of Wyoming was sheep country, complete with Basque herders, as I remember it in the 1960's. I also remember a rancher (Herefords) who maintained Scotch habits, not far from Laramie, whom I met when I was looking for fossils in those red beds. Proulx set her story in the 1960-1980 period; it does not concern either of these groups of people, but it does involve the marginals with little education that one could find on the street in the towns. The story won the O. Henry Award for short stories when it first appeared in the "New Yorker" magazine. Collectors Note: "Close Range, Wyoming Stories," 1999, is much sought after and the price is rising; a near-perfect copy of the first edition with the superb watercolors by William Matthews brings $250 plus; a signature by Proulx doubles that and the limited first in slip case sells for about $2000. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: katlaughing Date: 14 Jun 07 - 08:34 PM More asides, yeah, and the little education continues, but she still did a poor job, imo, O. Henry or not. I suspect the family we knew from Scotland would have known this, esp. the older folks. I wish they were still around. They were superb fiddlers, too. They were up north of Casper. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: greg stephens Date: 14 Jun 07 - 08:46 PM IanC is a little confused. Brythonic isd not a term used for pre-Celtic laguages, it is the term used to distinguish Britsaish Celtic languages from Gaelic(or Goidelic) languages. Also, of course the Cumbrian yan/tan counting is connected to Welsh and other British Celktic languages(though it has other elements as well). Just take a look at the Welsh for 1-20. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 14 Jun 07 - 09:04 PM It is also easy to forget that Wyoming can be a brutal place, e. g., Matthew Shepard, the gay student at the Univ. Wyoming who was killed for being homosexual. The story, regardless of katlaughing's opinion, is considered a classic, and will be included in short story collections and short story classes at university. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: katlaughing Date: 14 Jun 07 - 10:51 PM Not so easy when one works for human rights while living there click. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: GUEST Date: 15 Jun 07 - 04:45 AM I remember Winnemucca, Nevada, as being a town founded by Basque shepherds. Wonder how the Basques count their sheep... in Basque, I'd imagine (or perhaps some form of 'proto-Basque', heh-heh!).
Thanks. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: Sorcha Date: 15 Jun 07 - 09:17 AM There are still a lot of Basque herders, or descendants of Basque herders here. Sheep vs. cows is still a sore point around here. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: MMario Date: 15 Jun 07 - 09:26 AM well - sheep - if not properly managed, *do* ruin a range. They will overgraze at the drop of a hat. Basque numerals: 1 - bat 2 - bi 3 - hiru 4 - lau 5 - bost 6 - sei (like Italian surprisingly) 7 - zazpi 8 - zortzi 9 - bederatzi 10 - hamar 11 hamaika 12 hamabi 13 hamairu 14 hamalau 15 hamabost 16 hamasei 17 hamazazpi 18 hamazortzi 19 hemeretzi 20 hogei 21 hogei bat 30 hogeita 40 berrogei 50 berrogeita hamar 60 hirurogei 70 hirurogeita hamar 80 laurogei 90 laurogeita hamar 100 ehun In Basque counting is done by twenties. Now that you can count from one to twenty, counting to 99 will be easy. Beginning with 21, in Basque you count "twenty and one", "twenty and two", etc. Thirty is "twenty and ten", 31 is "twenty and eleven" and so on. Forty is "two twenties", 41 is "two twenties and one", etc. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: JohnInKansas Date: 15 Jun 07 - 09:40 AM While by no means folklore or legend, in the late 50s my dad had an employee who normally ran a punch press stamping out "form ties" for concrete foundation forms. One day when we ran out of 16 Ga strips to run through the press he asked her to count out the parts she'd run so they could be strapped into bunches of 100 for shipping, and learned that she couldn't count - at all. Well - one tie for each of her five kids, plus one for each parent made a small pile of 7 ties. One pile for each of her five kids plus one pile for each parent made a clump of 49. Add one clump for ma, and one for pa, plus one tie for ma and one for pa made 100. No mistakes in about 50 bundles (checked by weight - as we always did regardless of who counted them). Other than the inconvenience of having to pay her cash, because she also couldn't write her own name to cash a check, she was one of the most reliable workers he ever had at the shop - for about 8 years. (No lack of intelligence - just an Arky from the hills where there was no schoolin' for her generation.) John |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: Peace Date: 15 Jun 07 - 10:15 AM "Peace, that divide by four, I think, in the West was taught to every unsuspecting kid by his parents, about the time he was getting out of diapers. The kids perhaps even believed it for about 30 seconds." Q, you mean that's NOT the way to do it? Tell me now why dontcha! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: GUEST,AR Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:20 AM OK, that's Vermont and Cincinnati... thanks for all the input, people! How about survivals of 'Brythonic' counting systems in Australia, New Zealand, South Africa etc? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: GUEST,The Wood Gatherer Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:28 AM In Arkansas, what time is it when a sheep gets stuck in the fence? + + + + +(Mountain Time) |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: Peace Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:30 AM Excellent article on that very thing. Scroll down. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: GUEST Date: 15 Jun 07 - 11:47 AM I am sure I read some where that The Welsh counting words matched some native American Indian numbers.
Thanks. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: Mr Red Date: 15 Jun 07 - 12:47 PM Well in Wales they count goats with colour. (scuse spelling) Oi guven ven ven ven ven, eyes canny eto! Not a yan, tan or a tethero. Though I am not sure how old the song is though - it is well known by many Welsh speakers. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: GUEST,Guest: Strad Date: 16 Jun 07 - 06:32 AM Why do sheep need to count? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: Geoff the Duck Date: 16 Jun 07 - 07:30 AM Earlier reference to Jake Thackery - What he actually said and was broadcast in a programme made by the BBC, was a comment about a song he had written. The song contains the "yan tan tetherer" counting system and he introduced the song with a story about his grandmother, or maybe his great grandmother, having kept sheep on the hills. The confession he made was that the story about sheep herders in the family was a total fabrication as they lived in the middle of Leeds, not in an isolated farm in the Yorkshire Dales. Quack! GtD. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: open mike Date: 17 Jun 07 - 03:52 AM this brings to mind the Peruvian and Inca and Andes and other south american way of counting llamas..with quipu... (i think that is what they are called) strings with knots tied in them to represent numbers of critters. also a northern california indian communication system built on similar tied strings--which was used to invite neighboring tribes to pow wow like gatherings, dances, gambling games and ceremonies...a runner was sent out to deliver the message with a string with knots tied in it to indicate the number of days until the event. also known as invitation strings. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: Nigel Parsons Date: 17 Jun 07 - 02:47 PM Shepherds Counting systems The earlier thread. CHEERS Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: Rowan Date: 17 Jun 07 - 07:55 PM I confess I was a bit out of nappies when I first heard (in South Gippsland) the old "Count their legs and divide by four" line, but it was always told in the context of party tricks like my grandfather's ability to make a penny (the Oz version was the same size as the British) disappear through a solid timber table and then reappear. While there were some sheep, the area was mostly dairy farming. When I later had more to do with sheep, in the Riverina and later the Northern Tablelands, the sheep were numbered in their scores of thousands and I never heard 'strange' numbering systems. When tallies were required during shearing, they were chalked up because each shearer was paid according to his performance. During drafting, the tallies were usually marked in a pocketbook. No folklore there. As an aside, when I was in SC, some kind friends took us for a drive along the Blue Ridge. As we rounded the bend in a re-entrant, the driver got excited about the fact there was a dozen sheep in a little paddock (not much bigger than a shearer's pen) and pointed them out to us. I hadn't the heart to tell her that, when we'd left Oz we had been living on a property with some 3000 sheep; she had wanted to show us some American culture, and she did. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: open mike Date: 17 Jun 07 - 11:26 PM i have also heard that there can be one black sheep for each 100 (or 99?) white ones, and by that you can estimate how many hundreds of them are in the flock by counting black ones and multiplying X 100./ |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 18 Jun 07 - 03:19 PM Near-white, gray, brown and black. One would get some odd estimates, especially with Navajo flocks. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: Rasener Date: 18 Jun 07 - 03:37 PM Is that where the song lyrics "One black one, one white one and one with a bit of s**** on" came from? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: Rowan Date: 18 Jun 07 - 07:13 PM I can't say about elsewhere, but in Oz the genetics of most flocks bred for wool are generally computer controlled to within an inch of their lives. The only times you see black, brown or brindle sheep they're in those flocks (usually kept by hobby farmers) selling to the hand-spun yarn market. They certainly get rapidly culled from any flock aiming at 11 micron wool, as one dark fibre will reduce the price of the whole bale. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sheep counting systems in N America? From: GUEST,Kent Davis Date: 18 Jun 07 - 11:23 PM Our sheep are Soays, with mouflon brown wool. I just counted them. I have giggot and tethera. However, Friday night was the first time I counted them that way, so it's not a North American tradition...yet. Kent Davis |
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