BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Cluin
Date: 12 Aug 07 - 12:12 AM

I have the feeling there will be corrected editions of the books coming out. I know they already reissued the first book with some changes to reflect later developments in the saga.

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: John O'L
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 11:08 PM

From Wikipedia:

"In the books, there is no mention of Harry recovering the Map from the office of the Professor Moody imposter; when asked, Rowling answered that Harry had indeed sneaked into the office and recovered it in the days following the Third Task. She also commented that she had intended to include a scene or mention it."

Had intended to?

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 09:48 PM

Chat with Tom Riddle.

Warning: He's not as intelligent as in the book.

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: John O'L
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 08:05 PM

OK, we stand corrected. Guess I'm just gonna have to re-read the relevant parts of GoF.

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 08:02 PM

Ah, from Wikipedia:

In the books, there is no mention of Harry recovering the Map from the office of the Professor Moody imposter; when asked, Rowling answered that Harry had indeed sneaked into the office and recovered it in the days following the Third Task. She also commented that she had intended to include a scene or mention it.

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Cluin
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 07:53 PM

She's wrong, you know. And also right.

She was talking about a different book in the series, "Prisoner of Azkaban". Mad-Eye, in "Goblet of Fire" encountered the map and borrowed it from Harry for the rest of the book.

But it actually wasn't Mad Eye; it was Barty Crouch Jr. in disguise. He was taking polyjuice potion to impersonate Mad Eye all year. There was no point in the books where Harry got the map back from the imposter or anybody else, but Harry had it in his possession again the next year. How did he get it?

So you wife is both right and wrong. Do what you feel is safe with that information.

Also, Snape knew what the map actually was, if not before, then certainly after the events at the end of "Prisoner" because he found the map fully activated and showing everybody on the grounds of Hogwarts when Lupin left it "running" in his office as he ran to the Whomping Willow. Why did he not demand the map after that or at least tell Dumbledore about it? They could certainly have used it as a security measure at the school. Ther would have caught the Mad Eye Moody imposter earlier in the next book with it.

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: John O'L
Date: 11 Aug 07 - 07:37 PM

When my daughter didn't know I nearly gave up the quest, but just on spec I asked my wife this morning, and...

Mad-Eye never took the map. It was Snape who took it off Harry, but Snape didn't know what it was. Then Lupin came along and recognised it immediately, being one of its creators. He got it away from Snape and kept it until he left Hogwarts at the end of the book, when he gave it back to Harry.

That's wives for you.

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Cluin
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 05:08 PM

And how did Harry ever get the Marauder's Map returned to him after the Mad-Eye Moody imposter (Barty Crouch Jr.) borrowed it in the 4th book?

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Bainbo
Date: 09 Aug 07 - 02:50 PM

Post of invisibility, McG?

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 06:51 PM

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 01:43 PM

That'd have been a better place to hide a horcrux. Now there's a tough quest.

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 01:41 PM

If the Room of Requirement held everything that Hogwarts students had ever needed to hide... would the room that Dumbledore found there - full of chamber pots - have been used by other nocturnal wanderers in search of a bathroom???











Let me just say... I wrote that and *I'M* disgusted at me...





Eeeuuuuwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, and again I say EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUWwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!

LTS - who is going to chastise herself Dobby style.

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: ClaireBear
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 01:38 PM

Sorry, in the above post I meant Room of Requirement of course.

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: ClaireBear
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 01:07 PM

Regarding the secret room, as it was a Room of Necessity, mightn't it have appeared to Riddle as a room no one else knew about, simply because that was what he needed?

Just lost a post in which I cited a Webchat JK Rowling did for Bloomsbury, answering the hat/sword question:

Su: How did Neville get the Gryffindor sword, is there a link to the hat?

J.K. Rowling: Yes, there is very definitely a link to the hat! Neville, most worthy Gryffindor, asked for help just as Harry did in the Chamber of secrets, and Gryffindor's sword was transported into Gryffindor's old hat — the Sorting Hat was Gryffindor's initially, as you know. Griphook was wrong — Gryffindor did not 'steal' the sword, not unless you are a goblin fanatic and believe that all goblin-made objects really belong to the maker.

Cheers,
Claire

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 12:40 PM

The Sorting Hat could provide the sword from wherever it was. It's magic, you know. When Harry pulled it out to fight the basilisk, nobody had put it in there beforehand.

Admittedly, JKR kind of glossed over a lot of things in this last book, either to get it done on time or to build up a market for the Harry Potter encyclopedia-to-come in which all will be made clear.

For instance, the Ravenclaw tiara artifact that was a horcrux was almost ridiculously easy to acquire and destroy after the first ones needed over a book to get to.

Been rereading the books in reverse order lately and I have a question: Why couldn't Harry see the thestrals pulling the Hogwarts carriages at the end of the year in Goblet of Fire? He'd seen Death by then (when Cedric Diggory got snuffed) and the next book made a big thing about Harry seeing them when he returned that Sept ember and thinking he was losing his mind. For that matter, hadn't he seen Death when his parents were killed in front of him? Or with Prof. Quirrell in the first book?

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Aug 07 - 10:48 AM

I read it and enjoyed it but it's not great literature. The Hidden Room nonsense bothered me too. Everyone and his mother had been in there. Why not Harry?
The sword was back in the hat? Huh? I thought the goblin ran off with it?
Best image? McG herding a roomful of desks through Hogwarts and screaming "Attack!" I hope they use that in the movie.
Favorite character? The blind dragon. Did anyone else see him as a symbol of Harry? Burned and scarred and tired and trapped not knowing where he was going or why but getting the hell on with it.

The Epilogue: Cynical. Perfect. They lived happily ever after. Cinderella, Snow White, Sleeping Beauty - they all ended up with balding accountants for husbands and a slew of snotty nosed kids. So did Harry. So do we all.

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 06:16 PM

All in all, Voldemort never was as much of a threat as he was supposed to be, was he? Pretty much a complete fuck-up when it came to anything at all to do with Harry Potter. He shoulda gave it all up and went home and played with his snake.

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: John O'L
Date: 07 Aug 07 - 06:10 AM

I agree McG. We have seen her develop enormously since the first book, and although there are holes to be picked*, I think No. 7 is a worthy and fulfilling conclusion. Most enjoyable.

*How could Voldemort possibly have thought he was the only one to know about The Room Of Hidden Things when it's very existence was to house all the crap obviously put there by thousands of other kids who had managed to find it?

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 07:00 PM

I thought the epilogue worked pretty well - rather like the ending on Lord of the Rings, the way it was low key and relaxed, and giving the author and the reasers a chance to say goodbye to the characters. And Dickens used to do the same in his own way.

"Bitch" and "bastard" shocking? I only wish that was the strongest language children encounter and use.

It'll be interesting to see what JK Rowling will eventually come up with when she gets round to writing again (aside from the tidying up encyclopedia/appendices) - you could see her learning the tricks of the writing trade in the course of writing the books.

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 03:49 PM

Beat me to it, Wes!

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 01:37 PM

If you havn't seen it here is a link to a JK Rowling Interview where she talks about what she imagines a lot of the main characters would do after the events of book 7.

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 08:47 PM

One thing I wonder about is the relationship with muggles, since wizardry is hardly a secret any more, too many muggles had to be protected by the good guys. Wonder what the Ministry is up to then.

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Dazbo
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 10:23 AM

It also had the symetry of harry, james lily and sirius.

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: The Walrus
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 10:17 PM

Am I the only one who thought that the Death of Lupin was somewhat telegraphed? (I admit I hadn't expected Tonks to be included).
Maybe I've just seen to many old war movies, but I felt that Lupin suddenly turning up, announcing the birth and asking potter top be godfather was somewhat akin to the young squaddie who shows photos of his girlfriend/fiance/new wife just before an attack - almost certain to be 'written out'.

W

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Grab
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 07:56 PM

Epilogue sucked, big-time. And I was a bit surprised there wasn't more from the other characters too - Ginny, Luna, etc - although Neville and the Weasleys score well.

Death of Hedwig - Moody had just been killed too, and Harry almost died himself. And for Lupin and Tonks, I think the reason there wasn't more written on that was that Harry's clearly deeply in shock at this point. He's just seen Fred killed, as well as tons of other people he knew, and he knows he's the cause. He just wants to die himself and not have to face all this any more.

As for the flitting round the countryside, I thought that actually did work. It seemed to use up a lot of pages, but it established (by showing us instead of just summarising it) Harry realising that actually he *isn't* god's gift to wizarding and he *can't* just stroll out the door, kill Voldemort and be back for tea. And unlike too many other fantasy books, the other side aren't just static dumb obstacles - they're clever and devious, and they're simply better at wizardry than he is.

And I thought the Dumbledore backstory was superbly constructed. To take someone who for 6 books has been a whiter-than-white hero and turn him into a much more morally ambiguous arch-manipulator was a great bit of writing. Snape was clearly a double-agent, but the quality of all that (and the details - Snape's patronus being Lily, for example) is seriously good.

I'll be interested to see how they film this one, though. Order of the Phoenix, they missed out an absolute ton of the book, and as my wife said, it was basically impenetrable to someone who didn't already know the book. I can't see this being done in less than 4 hours myself.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 05:45 PM

Yes, they already shouldn't have left Dobby out of that other movie!

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Rowan
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 03:28 AM

Now that the climax and denouement are out, the producers will be able to plot exactly which bits of the last three books to put into the films and which to leave aside, allowing all of them to finish before the players grow too old to properly be in character (or shuffle off the mortal coil).

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: alison
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 11:16 PM

well thats the first time I've cried at a book in a long time - poor Dobby!........... and the bit where Harry was going into the forest to meet Voldemort.........

Neville getting the sword out of the hat was a bit weird too - seeing as his head was on fire at the time!!

I was glad the epilogue was there - even if it was a bit naff!!

all that apparating was getting a tad dull before they ended up back at Hogwarts.

Its going to make a gory movie - with bodies everywhere, .... & I agree with the above - Mrs Weasley versus Beelatrix was straight out of Aliens!!

now what should I read next?....................

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Cluin
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 05:46 PM

Agree. She had already committed to 7 books and no more so she had to wrap things up pretty quickly in this last book. A little too quickly to really do the yarn justice, I think. At least another book's worth there.

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: MMario
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 10:19 AM

And I'd love a 'Historical" couple of books set around the founders of Hogwarts.

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 10:11 AM

I have to say there are some parallels with Terry Pratchett. When TP got a contract with Gollancz to publish a certain number of Discworld books in a certain number of year (I think it was one a year for 7 years), the quality went down considerably. There are a group of 3-4 books in the middle of the series that are really not as good as they could be and are just vehicles for one very VERY bad pun. As soon as the contract ran out, there was a 2-3 year gap between books and the quality improved tremendously.

I have a strong suspicion (and experiences) that 'writing to order' puts unfair pressure on an author which results in work that may not be as good as previous pieces. Great gaping holes in plots may escape an author when they're writing against the calendar. Although I have loved every single one of the Potter books, I can't help but feel there is material enough for another couple of books, just filling in all the gaps in the first 7 - a bit like 'The Silmarillion' and 'Unfinished Tales' does for 'The Lord of the Rings'. I for one would love to hear more about the original Order of the Phoenix and the first rising of Voldemort.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 06:40 AM

I also thought the deaths of Lupin and Tonks were not well developed. Nor was the death of Hedwig, or at least Harry's response to it! And yes, Ginny was a disappointment as a character...so much potential, but never really developed.

I think Rowling is quite hit-and-miss as a writer. The books are good entertaimnment, but have some pretty significant flaws. I'd partially agree with the Guardian writer who said that they are one-dimensional - in some places, and with regard to certain characters, they definitely are. But on balance, the story has kept me gripped and there were enough satisfying bits to have made the journey worthwhile.

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Dazbo
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 06:33 AM

As to it not being literature all I can say is that I've had my nose in books since I was about 8 and if there is one thing that's guarenteed to put me off a book is it being described as literature! I want a book to tell an interesting story that grips me, not what some lah-di-dah, up-yer-bum critic says is a fine piece of art. I learnt my lesson the hard way: most of the lauded books I've tried have been almost unreadable!

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Rowan
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 01:53 AM

Daughter number one got her copy at 9am (Eastern Standard Time in Oz) and, despite playing one netball game, coaching another and watching an hour of Dr Who. managed to finish it 16.5 hours later. The only laugh I heard I asked her about and she quoted the Potterwatch comment on "moving faster than Snape confronted by shampoo". She thought it a good read and, without letting me in on the contents, mentioned that "everything was explained by the end."

I suppose I'm so inured to the use of language inherited from Anglo-Saxons that Mrs Weasley's expostulation didn't faze me at all. I recall hearing some literature critic (who reportedly writes for the Guardian) being interviewed on ABC Radio National and describing the Potter series as one-dimensional writing. Well, to my mind, there's a place for esoteric literature and there's a place for ripper yarns; for me, the Potter series is a great sequence of ripper yarns. Having been around the traps for a while I could, if I so chose, read all sorts of resonances and meanings into them and I dare say there'll be more than one PhD on the published texts, let alone any drafts that may come to light. Good luck to such people; I don't need to go there.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Cluin
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 12:58 AM

Yeah, I flashed on "Aliens" at that point too, Les.

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Les B
Date: 27 Jul 07 - 12:43 AM

The final duel between Harry and Voldemort seemed to be intentionally written with iconic cinematic elements - the final shootout of a western movie for one thing, and although I was surprised at Molly Weasly's language - (NOT MY DAUGHTER, YOU BITCH !) - that seemed to come straight from of one of the strongest scenes in the "Alien" films, where Sigourney Weaver gets in a robotic machine and fights the alien predator, using almost the same words, "GET AWAY FROM HER YOU BITCH!"

Although I haven't seen it confirmed anywhere, my daughter claims she heard that J.K. Rowling may start a new book with the words to the effect of - "After nineteen years, Harry's scar mysteriously began hurting again...."

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Cluin
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 11:12 PM

Personally I don't think Rowling writes battles and big action scenes all that well, at least not as well as she handles the yarn-spinning and character development. I saw no need for the big finale battle scene at Hogwarts. Figure she was influenced by the movies there, wanting to compete with/imitate LOTR. Would have preferred less big battling and more story

Agree the flitting about the countryside, not accomplishing much dragged on, too. After they finally destroyed the locket horcrux, I looked at the position it happened in the book and thought "Shit, that was half the book! They still need to get 4 more horcruxes and still kill Voldemort too!"

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Dazbo
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 12:38 PM

I expect he had one of his extendable ears permanently attached now he's got room for it:-)

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 12:17 PM

Quote from harpmolly
>>I really want to know how George coped<<


Here is the answer George

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: MMario
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 12:14 PM

I think I would have had a little less "apparating about the countryside looking for mushrooms to eat because we didn't think to bring any food" -- that portion seemed to drag on forever and more time spent both in the final battles (very rushed) and the epilog...

and I think Percy should have been the Weasley to die - sure , let him redeem himself and return to the bosom of his family - but through a self-sacrificing death - which would have fit with the whole "love conquers all and redeems all" theme.

My opinons, of course, YMMV

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: diesel
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 11:35 AM

At last !

Freedom to talk about the ending, I hogged the book and finished it - only to find not being able to talk to my teenager son after it - he's getting there now though.

I don't think the epilogue was too bad, in fact probably relieved as the battle scenes had me exhausted. Knowing that life continued on is, I think, the important bit. To detail out the post-battle I think would have been to much. Better to skip to the future and close.

I'll want to re-read the books again to tie the looser ends together -
but probably never will. Instead I'll just be happy that the book was worth the wait.

Not for kids ? It started for Kids who have now grown up...but yes the language of 'Bit*h' and 'Basta*d' I found though understanable, for a young adult to use - was no need for it in a book that younger kids will read.

AS for HP - Order of Phoenix film - Didn't like the inclusion of the NIKE stripe on Dudley's top - Ouch gone all commercial now....A pity

rgds

Diesel

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: harpmolly
Date: 26 Jul 07 - 12:33 AM

Loved it. Hated it. Loved it, hated it, lovedithateditlovedithatedit...

OK, as you can tell, I'm a little conflicted. ;)

Lots of amazing moments--the Harry/Ginny kiss (not to mention the LONG-awaited Ron/Hermione connection), Neville slaying Nagini, Dobby's funeral (sob!), the return of Percy, Molly vs. Bellatrix, and of course the Snape denouement.

On the other hand...the last few chapters seemed rushed to me. I would much rather have had another scene in the immediate aftermath, instead of the abrupt shift to 19 years later. And Ginny really got the shaft--for someone who has been described by the author as a "powerful witch", she didn't get much to do. I suppose I should just be grateful JKR didn't kill her off! ;)

And speaking of killing people off...Fred completely broke my heart (I really want to know how George coped and whether W.W.W. continued), but at least Fred's death had some weight to it. Lupin and Tonks seemed sort of gratuitously tacked on the end, like "Oh, and incidentally...". From a literary perpective, it was deeply unsatisfying...no details on how/when/who. I think Lupin deserved better.

But I'm not obsessing. Really. :P

Molly

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 11:23 PM

Apparently a Potter Encyclopedia is in our future, and all of these loose ends will be tied up.
Here's a link.

Dan Schatz

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Amergin
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 02:55 PM

I would have liked to know what happened with George...with Fred gone...did he carry on with the business?

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: maire-aine
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 12:45 PM

I finished it at 2:00AM this morning. I was pretty satisfied with the ending, but I sure wish I could've had a "Potter encyclopedia" at my side. A lot of the details ran together after a while. I suppose I'll re-read the series again-- some time when I have free time. One of my favorite scenes was when Kreacher arrived with all the house-elves.

Maryanne

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 06:58 AM

I've always thought that too, Cluin. The wizarding world is chocka with Muggle-borns. If you were going to run a Ministry, would you appoint people like Mr Weasley when they haven't got a bloody clue? Appoint a few Muggle-borns, who can change a plug and even know how to operate a microwave. Problem solved.

It's one of those places where the conceit unravels a bit for me...

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Dazbo
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 06:27 AM

Thanks Cluin, I'd re-read the ending and saw that bit. Must have not registered when I read it the first time

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Cluin
Date: 25 Jul 07 - 04:10 AM

Neville got the sword from the Sorting Hat, the same way Harry got it when he slew the basilisk in Book 2.

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Cluin
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 08:26 PM

But I was waiting for a credible explanation of exactly why it was that Wizarding families were so damned ignorant of what went on in the Muggle world. Would they really not have televisions or electricity? Cars, I can see. I hate the fact that I have to own one, myself.

Subject: RE: BS: HP7 - Opinions? Contains Spoilers
From: Cluin
Date: 24 Jul 07 - 04:21 PM

...like I wasn't gonna read it anyway, whatever was written in it.