BS: The Jena 6 Controversy

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 11:47 AM

Sorry, Lonesome, EJ, if you felt I was personally attacking you... I think you have a good heart but I also think that we may have different opinions about the threat level of the "noose"... I, as well as others, see it historically as a threat... But beyond that, it has also been historically a threat which has been carried out... There have been lynchings in the South in my life time... Black people fully undestand what the "noose" means...

Yeah, I am a follower of Dr. King... I have been arrested peacefully in several demonstartions over the last 40 years...

But with that said, I also understand the concept of "self defense"... If a man is angry with me and shows me a knife, yeah, it can be argued that the knife is a mere symbol until he cuts me... I don't buy that argument... Samwe with a gun... Same with anything that is used to hurt, maim or kill... To me, the "noose" fills that bill...

I agree 100% with GUEST, guest that the white kids should have been brough up on frlony hate crimes... This would have most likely ended it where it started and sent a clear message by the adults in the community that Jim Crow don't live here anymore...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 11:18 AM

Any doubt about the meaning of the nooses? Check out the "Strange Fruit" thread. The three should have been expelled and would have in any State where I have lived. This is not a prank. It is a death threat.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 11:16 AM

"Mychal Bell's previous battery convictions would have been sufficient to net him serious felony charges anywhere on the December incident"

Sorry but given the questions surrounding his recently overturned convictions I have to wonder about the validity of these.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Alba
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 10:04 AM

Then again Riginslinger there is the 'Law' and there is 'Justice'
Sometimes the system works in harmony and one reflects the other but sadly a lot of the time....one has nothing to do with the other unfortunately.

One conclusion I have reached quite quickly on this issue is this. At no time, ever, should any white Person regardless of their age anywhere in this Country be led to believe that hanging a Noose from a Tree is a "Prank"
It is one of two things.
1. A Hate Crime
2. The actions of a person or persons who are either extremely uneducated or some sad soul(s) who could be seen to fall under the category of a person(s) who are/is unable to grasp the gravity of their actions due to diminished capacity. I do not believe that any of the 3 white students from Jena High are uneducated or could be put under the heading of being 'not responsible for their actions' due to diminished capacity.

May I suggest that if I, an immigrant to this Country from Scotland 10 years ago, can fully appreciate the horror behind the symbolic Noose hanging in a Southern Tree then...how could anyone that was born and raised and/or live in the Southern States of the US or throughout the rest of this Country not know the hatred, horror and fear behind this symbol. Ignorance, childish prank or complete insensitivity to other's feelings are not an acceptable reason for making this gesture imo. As I say the one conclusion I have reached personally, out of the many issues on both sides involved in this controversy, is that the act of resorting to using a historically well documented foul symbol of Racial hatred, a symbol which screams Murder. The murder of many Human Beings because of their skin Color. is and will remain to me an act of Hate.

I am still looking at the many other issues involved in this Controversy but on this one particular fact that has emerged I feel very strongly. The 3 Students that hung those nooses on that Tree at Jena High should be held responsible for committing a Hate Crime. Maybe this time round it would be better to go Global rather than Local and take this particular issue to the International Court of Justice in the Hague. Maybe it is time to take this issue out of this Country and onto the bigger World stage. Just a thought and as I said earlier this is my own personal opinion on just what I see as the tip of the Jena iceberg.

My best to all as always,
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 08:47 AM

"What is under discussion is unequal treatment under the law. And if it isn't, it bloody well should be."


                Peace - You're right, that what's really at stake here. When the DA brought those outrageous charges, somebody should have done something about it then.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: GUEST,Chris
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 03:54 AM

Maybe if these 6 guys went to Jail for awhile they would send a message to other black youths to fight 1 on 1. If it was a normal high school fight there wouldnt be 6 guys kicking a guy thats knocked unconscious. When I was high school yes 15 and 16 year olds got in fights all the time, but this jumping someone is bullshit. If it was 6 white students that jumped 1 black student it would be a hate crime and the NAACP would want them in jail for a long time and tired as adults. Yes blacks were treated bad in the past, but the idea that they get a free pass when ever they do stupid shit, is just that stupid....

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 03:10 AM

Thanks Guest,guest for the guilt-by-association attack. Your courage is manifested by your little anonymous name tag isn't it? Unless you are living in your Mom's basement and Mudcat is the extent of your social sphere, I suspect you understand exactly what I mean about the casual racism that exists in society. The people I'm speaking of are often intelligent, well-educated, principled individuals. They are often people successful in the business world, and many are decent people who I am proud to call friends. They are not defined by racism, any more than you are defined by your sanctimoniousness. I grew up in a similar racist environment to yours, an environment of segregated schools and neighborhoods, and counted no blacks as friends until college. I was emersed in that environment long enough that I know I have prejudices that I may never fully be rid of. But I am not so burdened with shame that I am ready to excuse any behavior in the light of past iniquities. Your poster boy, I fear, has feet of clay, and much effort will have to be put into polishing up his resume before he can qualify for hero status.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 01:11 AM

What I have the most problem with is not the facts, whatever they may be, but how people are responding to these incidents.   These 6 boys; the facts should be heard as best they can and the court should do the best it can to find the answer. The three white boys should have been charged with a hate crime for the noose incident. It seems everyone is dividing into racial camps. I am white, and I do not believe, regardless of who did what in that town, that blacks should be treated one way for what happened; yet the white boys who hung the nooses; hardly any action is taken; and life goes on?

Are we whites going to sit back and just have blacks protesting (why aren't more whites protesting?) that in small Southern white towns hanging nooses from trees is wrong and treating crimes differently based on race is wrong; and yes! I don't care if it is three months apart; the two incidents are connected and a clear sign of racial tension. If you have a tree, and the answer is not finding an answer but just cutting down the tree, is that really an answer? No! The answer is learning to live together in harmony.

I left a small Alabama town when I was 18 in 1976. When I left there, there was one movie theatre. The whites still sat downstairs while the blacks sat in the balcony! God only knows what would have happened (whisperings of KKK) had they dare sit downstairs! This is why I left Alabama ... and this was in 1976!! Many years after Selma and supposed "civil rights reform."

There are many good people in the South that are not racist. But when nooses are hung in a school and no one appropriately punishes those boys, you underpunish one group and overpunish another (or perhaps you look at the reasons that fight happened; does anyone here really believe that fight just "happened" without being incited by *something*?? read the Snopes.com article!), you are creating racial tension. Or maybe one of those boys did deserve greater charges than the others. Let the courts sort that out.

I agree, if someone, regardless of race, has prior battery convictions, it is going to make matters tougher. However, we also don't know the circumstances of those battery convictions! It is hard to get fair justice in a small, white, Southern town. Read To Kill A Mockingbird.

Did you see the interviews on CNN? The special? It brought out sides of Jena that many may not know ... that the town is divided in half ... if you live in one half, you are okay and likely white; if you live on the other half, you are most likely black and banished and the threats of KKK, they don't even have to be whispered in a small town like that. I lived that life and I know all about it.

Mychal Bell's parents probably didn't "refuse" to post $90,000; they probably simply didn't have the money!

Did anyone read the snopes article about the a black student in Jena attacked by white kids armed with beer bottles? Why weren't they prosecuted?! Only one was, with a misdemeanor.

This pretty much says it all about the noose: http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchingsstate.html

Lonesome EJ, I *NEVER* get jokes like that in my email box. Maybe it's the friends you hang out with? Why don't you speak up and TELL them it's not okay? Maybe because to you it doesn't seem so bad?

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 12:38 AM

Fair enough, Riginslinger.

LeeJ...well said. I don't for a minute believe MLK would have condoned the violence, either.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 11:51 PM

Folks,

I don't see that anyone is condoning racism, either by Blacks against Whites or Whites against Blacks. (And if anyone is, then PFO.) What is under discussion is unequal treatment under the law. And if it isn't, it bloody well should be.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 11:41 PM

Who has "trivialized the noose" Bobert? I agree with Peace that the Principal of Jena High was on the right track with his punishment. Nor did I, or anyone else commenting here, call the use of the noose "free speech" as Greg B implies. We don't have to re-establish the fact that black people are, and have been, the targets of the worst treatment imaginable.

The point I'm making (and yes, Greg, I grasp the tenets of your argument although I don't buy it)is that a symbol, no matter how negative, does not justify violence against an innocent individual. And neither does slavery, nor 140 years of segregation, nor unequal sentencing, nor any other cause near and dear to the most noble of civil rights leaders. And you certainly don't pin your aspirations for these noble ideals to the sleeve of a group of violent punks who may well have had nothing but hate motivating their actions.

Martin Luther King was a champion of Non-violence for pete's sake! His son may claim that Martin would condone this rally on Bell's behalf. I believe King would have been ashamed of Bell's actions, and would have had the strength to disassociate himself from, and condemn, the violence on both sides. Nooses? He faced police dogs, firehoses, log chains, and worse. And never did he excuse violence from his people in their struggle. He knew it would kill the movement faster than any number of nooses.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 09:00 PM

"...I totally disagree with you on your take on Morris Dees. The man is completely committed to fighting racism and inequality without any self-aggrandizement..."


             Kat - I guess we just disagree on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 08:46 PM

Yeah, whereas the "noose" is very much the symbol of white were/are willin' to do to "uppity niggers", it ain't the only terror that was used in the South during Jim Crow days...

'Bout 30 years ago I had kinda, ahhhhh, broken into the 14th Street train station in Richmond, Va.... It had been closed for dacades, fallin' into disrepair an' bein' the curious little scavenger I was spend a couple evening's sifting thru stuff and came accross two books, both of which I still possess... These two book, written in long hand, described all the various "accidenst" that the Richomnd work/rescue crew had to respond to... Most were minor... Derailments, ect.... An occasional broken bone but over the 2 year period I found no less than 4 enties were "Negro males, age 20 or so" were found "dead on the tracks, having been run over by a train"...

Now I ain't trying to bring this discussion into a purely emotional one but I'd like for each of you folks who have trivialized the "noose" to visualize about being tied to a railroad track with a train just a minute away...

I don't believe that white people understand just how much terorism as been brought down upon black people in this country... This stuff doesn't just disappear... The stories are passed down... The terror every much still exists in most of the South ***today***...

Yeah, sure, this makes white folks uncomfy... Tough... Do something to stop it other than rationalize why it's okay for white kids to terrorize blacks kids with symbols that are so hate filled that they make swazticas (sp) look like benign little doodling...

Hey, for God's sake, wake the heck up, white America... We need to confront the demon that is us...

Yeah, lots of folks here goin', "Okay, BObert jus' off on one of his rants" because these folks don't see themselves personally alligned with the white kids who put up the noose... But we are if we gfail to stand up and say, "Nooses = Hate" and do the things that are ***required*** to bring about forces that say in no uncertain terms to the rednecks among us, "Your values are UN-AMERICAN, and if you continue to show them in such a vile manner, we will stick yer dumbass self in jail..."

But wait...

We need to take it a step further... These kids need not only to be in jail but they also need to be ***habilitated***.... No, not rehabilitated because they have never known anything but hate... We need to start from scratch with these kids as if they were drug addicts... Use the same kinds of treatment modalities that are used on drug addicts.... Why??? Because they are addicted... They are addicted to hate... These kids need help...

But as long as the grown ups (haha) are also addicted to hate, this ain't goin' happen soon... But it needs to...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 08:44 PM

What is wanted is the Court record- not who saids-

The testimony is a matter of record. Newspapers and court records mention witnesses, some of whom gave testimony, but the total number would have to be an approximation. I doubt that anyone counted them. The number probably was considerable, considering the place and time, but many would deny being there.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 08:14 PM

What website? Please include a link.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: pdq
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 07:54 PM

One website said that The Beating was witnessed by over 40 students, all gave sworn testimony that appeared in court.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 07:52 PM

Not really, Q, just that they present the "facts" as will serve them best...they may also NOT present them if they feel it would be better for their case.

Unless of course you meant that in an ironic fashion, in which case I agree with you!

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 07:46 PM

Katlaughing, what you are saying is that law enforcement and court systems are phony, prosecutors, defenders and witnesses are liars, and justice is not blind but biased.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 07:11 PM

pdq, those seem to be the "facts" as presented by the prosecution only. I'd like to see what the defence claimed to refute them. Also, ever heard of how inaccurate witness statements can be ala the blind men describing an elephant? I do not doubt what happened, just how it happened, something none of us will probably ever know. The white kids are going to say one thing and the black kids another. The DA and Fed. pros. are also going to declare the "facts" in a different way than the defence attorneys will. Also, you did not cite your sources.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: pdq
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 06:33 PM

The following information is presented as fact. If it is not, please show evidence.

The Tree: It does not exist anymore. The city fathers decided to have it cut down and removed. There are pictures of trees on various websites by they are staged photos, some with one or more people. One shows "a tree on campus", but not "the tree".

The Incident: Three White kids were charged with putting two or three noose-like pieces of rope in a tree. They were all suspended (in house?) for three days. What they did was rude but it did not violate any specific ban on such actions and it did not break any laws.

The Beating "The white teenager who was beaten, Justin Barker, 17, was knocked out but walked out of a hospital after two hours of treatment for a concussion and an eye that was swollen shut."

          Justin Baker said (sworn testimony): "Justin Barker, 17, testified that he had just come out of his high school gym with his girlfriend walking ahead of him on Dec. 4 when they turned to avoid a group of black students.

          "I turned my back and somebody hit me, that's all I remember," Barker said.

          Other students said (sworn testimony): "When I heard a black boy say something to Justin, I turned my head and I saw somebody hit Justin," one student wrote in a statement. "He fell in between the gym door and the concrete barricade. I saw Robert Bailey kneel down and punch Justin in the head. … Then Carwin Jones kicked him in the head. … Theo Shaw tried to kick him so I pushed Theo Shaw down. I also saw Mychal Bell standing over him."

Phrases like "stomped him badly," "stepped on his face," "knocked out cold on the ground," and "slammed his head on the concrete beam" were used by the students in their statements.

The Beating happened three months after the noose incident and and both the Federal Prosecutor and the local District Attorney said the noose incident and the beating of Justin Baker were not connected.

The Injuries: "Justin Barker was taken by ambulance to LaSalle General Hospital's emergency room, arriving at 12:25 p.m., according to court documents. A report from the ambulance company stated Barker 'denies any pain other than his eye'.

Once in the emergency room, Barker told medical personnel that he had been 'jumped by 15 guys' and was unsure of what he had been hit with, according to the emergency physician's record in the court file. The record noted an injury to Barker's right eye requiring follow-up medical attention and injuries to his face, ears and hand.

A Computed Tomography scan of Barker's brain showed no abnormalities, but there were reports of him losing consciousness during the attack, according to hospital records.

Barker was discharged about 2½ hours after being admitted to the ER. Later that night, he attended a ring ceremony at the school, where he was presented his class ring by his parents, something Kelli Barker said her son really wanted to be a part of, even though he was still in pain."

"All that keeps being said is that he was just in the hospital for a little bit and not really hurt," Kelli Barker said of Justin. "I thank God he wasn't hurt more than he was. But we have medical bills to show that he really was hurt."

The Punishment: Mychal Bell was convicted of aggravated battery. That is exactly what he did. What is the big problem?

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 06:25 PM

From what I can find out, the principal proposed expulsion- this was reported in the Alexandria, LA newspaper. A school district committee changed this to suspension for three days.

Mychal Bell's previous battery convictions would have been sufficient to net him serious felony charges anywhere on the December incident. His football ability was all that kept him in school; he no longer was on the team (eligibility expired, academic or other reason?).
The other defendants posted bail, but the judge, citing Bell's criminal record, kept the amount for him at $90,000, which the parents refused to post. The District Attorney reduced charges to second-degree battery, and offered a plea agreement including a suspended sentence, but Bell's family refused and went to the media.

A judge threw out the conspiracy charges and referred the case to juvenile court, but let stand a conviction for aggravated second degree battery.

The State's Third Circuit Appeals Court threw out the conviction on Sept. 14 because he should not have been tried as an adult.

The case will be tried in juvenile court unless the district attorney is successful in an appeal.

The noose incident, etc., happened a year ago, and the beating took place in December.

In the meantime, the arson that destroyed the school's main academic building, seemingly related to the situation, is still under investigation.

Looks to me like justice was proceeding slowly, but that often is the case in American courts.

If charges result from the arson investigation, look for the whole thing to be blogged to death and tried by outsiders again.

Condensed from news items in Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, MSNBC online.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Greg B
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 06:12 PM

Lonesome EJ, you don't have to be an attorney to know the definition
of assault (or to look it up). All you have to be able to do is read.

Nor do you have to be an attorney to know that hanging a noose in
a tree as an action directed to an African-American, or painting
a swastika on a synagogue, or burning a cross on an African-American
family's lawn are all defined as 'hate crimes' in these United States.

For very good reasons, rooted in both the present and the past.

None of the above are 'free speech.' Not in any sense of the word.

And you don't have be a genius to understand what the above actions
mean in our society, and what the results are likely to be now that
certain groups have decided that they're not going to have their
necks stood on (or stretched) any more. You just have to have a lick
of common sense.

So what's YOUR problem in understanding it?

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 05:39 PM

Also from SNOPES. It's worth reading. Cuts out some of the bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 05:32 PM

"The following morning, three nooses were discovered hanging from the tree. Jena's principal learned that three white students were responsible and recommended expulsion. The board of education overruled his recommendation, to which Superintendent Roy Breithaupt agreed. The punishment was reduced to three days of in-school suspension.[3]"

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 05:11 PM

Peace, what was the Principal's proposed punishment?

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: 3refs
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 04:53 PM

Are we allowed to say "It is your right to do whatever you like, provided your not breaking any laws, but in reality, it's probably not a good idea".

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: SINSULL
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 04:41 PM

The demonstraters were met by an 18 year old truck driving drunk who was dangling a noose fitted with handcuffs from the back of the truck. It was an attempt to start a riot but to the demonstrators' credit, they called the police. He was arrested, charged with drunk driving and instigating a riot. More charges to follow.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 04:19 PM

BTW, the nooses were reported to the school admin. The bloody board overrode the principal's proposed punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 04:18 PM

The whole thing has been one fuck up after another. No part of it has been handled properly, and thus, the media show. I can't see where anyone is saying 'excuse the behaviors of the Black guys'. But let's not get all so full of ourselves that we forget there are some White guys who had done some bad shit in this. Who's facing court? RIGHT. Same shit, different day.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: kendall
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 03:43 PM

I often agree with Rev. Sharpton, but to call 6 guys beating up one white guy a "fight",, that's horse shit.

Furthermore, it plays into that old myth that one black guy is ok, but if there are two or more, then they like to cause trouble and act like "Niggers". I've heard that all my life. I was in the service in the early 50,s, and white guys actually believed that. Now, what I saw was just the opposite. It was the white guys who went looking for trouble and getting thrown into jail. We had 4 or 5 blacks in our ship and they didn't even socialize with each other.I never saw them walking the streets looking for trouble.

My point is, it's this sort of thing that keeps that myth alive, and believe me, this is not the end of this. Those white boys will get even, and where does it end? The KKK is still alive and just waiting for an excuse to come out from under their rock.

I don't give a damn who you are, what your history is, whether or not you have been insulted, no one has the right to throw the first punch.

Finally, those idiots who hung the nooses need some lessons in rising above redneck stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 03:23 PM

Greg B, are you an attorney? Frankly, the bias in the rest of your statement makes me doubt your objectivity on the charges. Who held the noose? And who specifically was it directed toward? You say it is incitement to violence. Was the display of the noose done by the victim of the later violence? And legally, is the "display of a club" equivalent to beating someone with it? Are you saying that the display of the noose was directed toward all black students by all white students, and therefore retaliation by any black student(s) against any white student is justified?

When emotion, even understandable emotion, predominates over rule of law, then there is no law.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 02:07 PM

Greg: That is one of the best posts I have ever read on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Greg B
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 02:02 PM

"Azizi, do you really equate the noose display with the assault? I don't
see it as equivalent, and I don't think the two matters are viewed
equally under the law, nor should they be."

In fact, in the legal definition of 'assault' the display of a
lynch-noose to an African American is ABSOLUTELY an assault, where
Law. an unlawful physical attack upon another; an attempt or offer to
do violence to another, with or without battery, as by holding a stone
or club in a threatening manner.

I commend to you the web site Lynching in America
to educate yourself as why this particular symbol of white supremacy
is so powerful and has been defined as, in and of itself, a hate
crime.

The noose is to the black person what the swastika or oven is to the Jew.
A symbol which cannot be minimized. It means 'murder' to any black
man or woman who would dare violate Jim Crow's rule of 'law' or
the myriad non-codified matters of practice that made up racist
America.

The 'White Tree,' the noose for the black kid who'd dare to sit
under said tree; all of it was violence and incitement to violence.

The dirty rotten irony is that the same white men (and one man who
appears to be black only on the outside) who set up and tolerated
the very conditions leading to the inevitable result of racial
violence are now tut-tutting over the outcome when it happened. "The
men who spurred us on, sit in judgment of our wrongs."

If the Federal Government will step in and take over a school system
because of 'No Child Left Behind' test scores, they ought to take
Jena's over because those children are being left behind in the
middle of the Jim Crow era as regards their personal ethics.

There's only one thing wrong with what Azizi said---- the word
'blogger' is now considered offensive, and that group now prefers
to be referred to as 'Blogging-Americans.' :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 01:12 PM

Thanks, Peace. That is my point.

And that said, I've said all I want to say in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 01:02 PM

All that said, so fuckin' what? The kids have not been treated fairly.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: pdq
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 12:55 PM

"If, however, I jump him with five of my companions and beat and kick him unconscious...that is a clear assault.

No, it is battery, maybe attempterd murder. Assault can be as benign as standing in front of someone who wants to walk down the street unobstructed.



"I also believe that some of this closet hate must go on in the black community as well."

Listen to Rap. The hatred is right out there and "in your face".

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: kendall
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 12:50 PM

No one ever has the right to throw the first punch.
Ever.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 12:44 PM

Azizi, do you really equate the noose display with the assault? I don't see it as equivalent, and I don't think the two matters are viewed equally under the law, nor should they be.

Let's put aside the race implications for just a moment. If I tell someone I will hang him, that can be treated as a threat, and that person could take out a restraining order on me. If, however, I jump him with five of my companions and beat and kick him unconscious (whether he's subsequently hospitalized or not), that is a clear assault.

I know you will reply that the race implications can NOT be put aside, but the basic charges under the existing system of law require some order, predictability, and consistency. Within that context, should other factors such as race-hate be taken into consideration? Certainly.

Should the case of Mychal Bell be a precedent for changing the way our laws are enforced? It certainly doesn't seem to me so. Do we need to change our racial attitudes? Absolutely. But my God that's difficult to do. I routinely receive jokes via email from otherwise intelligent and educated white folks that contain the same old tired and mean racist jokes. I'm frankly sick of their assumption that because I am white it's ok. I also believe that some of this closet hate must go on in the black community as well. I don't know what it will take to end it, but I can't see that the Jena 6 situation does anything but provoke more polarity and anger. It seems clear to me that the supposed persecution of Mychal Bell as a cause celebre' for the abolition of repression is counter-productive in uprooting the deeper racial problems that plague us.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Azizi
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 12:12 PM

With regard to the desire that things go back to normal in Jena, Louisiana before Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and thousands of protestors came to that town for protest marches:

"Normal" was having the tree where only White students could sit. "Normal" is having White people get off with only a slap on the wrists if that for crimes they commit, while Black people get charged with and convicted of 20 years and other ridiculously long charges for the same or similar type of action.

What is normal in Jena is the fact that Mychel Bell, a Black teenager was charged with attempted murder for a teenage fight in which the White teen wasn't even hospitalized. Mychel Bell is still in jail on $90,000 bond. And I believe that he might still have had that attempted murder charge if bloggers and other advocates of justice- {I am referring to Black bloggers, White bloggers, and bloggers of other races} had not directed cyberspace attention and advocacy to this travesty of justice. Jackson and Sharpton are Johnny come latelys regarding this case. However, if they help to keep media attention to this case so that justice will finally be served and a better, equitable "normal" develops in the town of Jena-I say good on them.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 11:43 AM

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, Riginslinger, though I totally disagree with you on your take on Morris Dees. The man is completely committed to fighting racism and inequality without any self-aggrandizement, from what I have seen.

Incidentally, here's a posting from HateWatch. WARNING - not for the faint at heart:



As tens of thousands of people were preparing to make their way to Jena, La., for today's anti-racism rally, white supremacists were burning up the Internet with furious denunciations, bloody predictions, promises of future violence, and calls for lynching.

"The best crowd control for such a situation would be a squad of men armed with full automatics and preferably a machine gun as well," is how one person put it on the Web forum hosted by the neo-Nazi Vanguard News Network. Added another hopeful VNN poster: "I'm not really that angry at the nogs [a recent variation on an ancient racial slur] — they are just soldiers in an undeclared race war. But any white that's in that support rally I would like to … have them machine-gunned."

As the rally began to unfold this morning, it became clear that it would attract huge numbers of people, perhaps even the 40,000 that some organizers had predicted. They came to protest the case of the "Jena 6," black youths who were charged with serious crimes for an attack on a white youth not long after white teens who had targeted blacks were let off with a slap on the wrist. White supremacists reacted with a strange mixture of anger and admiration for the organizing behind the rally.

But the dominant response was violent rage. "I think a group of White men with AK rifles loaded with high capacity magazines should close in on the troop of howler monkeys from all sides and compress them into a tight group, and then White men in the buildings on both sides of the shitskinned hominids shall throw Molotov cocktails from above to cleanse the nigs by fire," wrote "NS Cat" on VNN. Another poster fantasized about a terrorist attack in Jena today: "Wouldn't that be sweet? Gosh darn, wouldn't that be sweet? Good LORD wouldn't THAT be SWeeeeEET? Boom, Boom, no more Coon! Well? A White man can dream can't he?"

"If these blacks want a race war," added a poster on Stormfront, another white supremacist Web forum, "they will get one. Bring it on."

In Roanoke, Va., an especially virulent purveyor of race hate, neo-Nazi Bill White, this afternoon posted the home addresses and phone numbers of five of the six black youths who make up the Jena 6 under this headline: "Addresses of Jena 6 Niggers: In Case Anyone Wants to Deliver Justice." White, the leader of the American National Socialist Workers Party, suggests that readers "get in touch and let them know justice is coming." Another White posting on the matter doesn't hold anything at all back: "Lynch the Jena 6."

Robert Moore, a well-known neo-Nazi leader from Baton Rouge, La., apparently abandoned plans he had discussed on Stormfront Wednesday to protest the Jena rally, possibly while carrying guns. Instead, he wrote later, "If they DO start rioting and looting and burning and raze the town to the ground, White Pride Construction will be there the next day to help them rebuild." In fact, Moore's company, started in 2005, has done a great deal of post-Katrina rebuilding on the Gulf Coast — a truly remarkable thing, given that its name includes a widely known racist slogan.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 10:19 AM

Looks like one big CF. Next there'll be tents set up and the circus will start.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 10:12 AM

Who, in their right mind, would tell a group of Black students in a small Louisiana town to just go and sit under a tree that had been the exclusive territory of "white" students, without anticipating, and preparing for some "culture shock"?

When the "responsible" leaders in a community don't deal with these issues when they come up, it falls to the irresponsible leaders, who are the noose-hangers and the headkickers--and when Fox News and Al Sharpton show up, you've lost big time--

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 10:11 AM

"Whoa! With all due respect, Riginslinger, the SPLC has a long history of advocacy for victims of racial bias, i.e. hate crimes."


                  I agree that sometimes they seem to be on the right side of history, but I would rank Morris Dees right up there with Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. They're really in it for the self aggrandizement it brings to themselves. Considerations for victims definitely takes a back seat with these people.

                  Just my opinion.

                  I think the kids would be better off with good stable legal representation, that moves forward with the defendant's interests at the center of their focus.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: jacqui.c
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 08:07 AM

I agree with Bill D and Q. From the little that I have learned about this case it does sound as though the local authorities in general did too little too late to prevent the escalation. All the principals seem to be teenage boys - testosterone charged and tending to see violence as the answer to problems, whatever their race or creed. The school, at least, should have been aware of the way in which this could escalate and should maybe have been making more effort to arbitrate between the groups.

At this point it would be very difficult to go back and unravel all the threads that knit this together, but that would be the only thing that might actually lead to some sort of real justice being done.

Problem is, IMHO, once the likes of Sharpton and Jackson get involved the whole thing just gets blown up to a point where it is almost impossible for a non confrontational solution to be found and the actual facts get buried under the hate rhetoric from both sides.

Just my five cents worth, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Alba
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 07:48 AM

Slight drift. Interesting post there Wilfried.
I saw a shocking and at the same time wonderfilled touring exhibition a number of Years ago in Glasgow Scotland.
It was about the History of the Native Americans and the impact of Settlers on their Culture and Lives.
What has remained stuck in my Memory was the very last room of the exhibition which had only two very large sepia colored photographs on opposite walls.
One was of a young Sioux Warrior hanging from a tree with 'white' men posing beneath the corpse with their rifles. The other very large photograph was of another young Sioux Warrior in full battle dress on his Horse.
The background soundtrack playing in this sad room was the very line you mention being sung over and over again.
" Land of the Free and Home of the Brave "

I have not yet arrived at my own personal opinion regarding "The Jena 6 controversy"

Best to all.
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: John Hardly
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 06:46 AM

Anger in search of a cause.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 06:39 AM

So it is in the land of the free and the home of the brave:

The whites have the privilege to be free, and the blacks have the privilege to be brave (Vietnam, Irak etc.)

Is it still waving?

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 04:26 AM

It is unfortunate that Sharpton, Jackson and other of their ilk with their agendas and their dupes descended on Jena. The young troublemakers (and arsonists?) of both races should have been dealt with early on. I suspect school authorities failed to take action because of fears of being accused of racism and the situation was allowed to simmer and finally boil over.
The townspeople wisely stayed indoors and closed most businesses during the invasion, and the mixed race police of the town and county wisely kept a low profile.

Sadly, normal relations will now be set back for a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 03:12 AM

There was a good article in the UK Guardian a few days ago.

This one- eyed application of the law is not confined to the USA though. The terrorism panic is creating similar asymmetries in the UK. It's impossible to get juries to convict racist activists, but for Moslems in partuicular, to be accused is to be convicted. And on one of the few occasions when a racist was convicted of terror crimes- he was stockpiling bomb making materials- he was allowed every benefit of the doubt and given a short sentence. Whereas a Moslem covicted of possessing not actua;l explosives, but merely links to web pages about explosives, can expect a sentence ten times as long.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: GUEST,yawn
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 01:59 AM

Mexican gang members in southern California have "shoot on sight" rules regarding blacks. I don't watch TV, but I assume thousands of reporters are swarming southern Cal covering that story, right?