BS: The Jena 6 Controversy

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: GUEST,SINS
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 08:28 AM

Anyone have aq final update on how this has ended?

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 04:20 PM

I've never heard Al Sharpton sing. All I've ever heard him do is squawk.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 03:21 PM

Al Sharpton is an excellent singer. You can't take that away from him. And it's more than I can say for some others around here.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 01:32 PM

Maybe that's because some people are drawn to them, while others are repulsed by them. Either way they manage to garner a lot of attention. Al Sharpton is a great example. Without the title of reverand, he would have any credentials at all.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Greg B
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 12:53 PM

The interesting thing is that clergymen, and self-styled clergymen,
seem to be able to obtain a pulpit far in excess of the size of
their congregations. This seems to be simply by virtue of their
being or calling themselves clergy. And it also seems to be
rather independent of their having any actual merits as political
or social thinkers.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 08:42 AM

"I don't even have any idea what percentage of Americans consider themselves church-goers..do you?"

                  No, but reports have indicated that something in excess of 65% to 75% consider themselve Christian. Of course, that comes by watching the news again.

                  A large number of what I consider to be the most intelligent women I know didn't have any childred, largely because it was commonly held at the time that something needed to be done to curb the world's population growth. Of course nobody told the women in third world nations, so...

                  At the end of the day, immigrants from developing countries seem to be more deeply steeped in religion than native born Americans, probably because they haven't been privy to media outlets and literature that allow them to see the hypocrisy.
                  The real problem develops, I suppose, if it takes them a generation or two to catch up.

                  Couple that with your observation that thinkers in the native born population seem to have become a "dying breed," and we're really in trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 11:27 PM

Do church-goers reproduce at a higher rate?
I don't even have any idea what percentage of Americans consider themselves church-goers..do you?

I think if we continue playing along with the crap about trusting the "news", watching tv, video gaming..Isolation vs Individuality, our entire society/country suffers because one of the first things to be bred out will be Common Sense. We already tend toward repeating what we've been told instead of exercising a couple more brain cells to Think about whether the stuff we're willing to fall for makes sense.

We kind of already have a huge population who might never figure stuff out. Thinkers are a dying breed and if something doesn't get changed within a few years, the next couple generations might be able to see the remaining representatives in a zoo. Well caged in a soundproof 'natural habitat'

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 11:03 PM

"I also don't have much faith in the religion rigamarole, but people do have an inherent need to Believe in something. Some folks who go to church really DO believe and making them give up their faith or sneak around to worship would be cruel."


             Yeah, I agree. Prohibition didn't work, neither did the war on drugs.
             The one problem in all of it that I see as the most freightening, is something Bobert alluded to earlier. If the people who go to church reproduce at a rate higher than the general population, and assuming that they will have to reach the age of somewhere around 50 before that are mature enough to actually figure out what's really going on. We'll have a huge population of people who might never figure it out until the whole thing's over.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 09:50 AM

Well, folks, please, please carry this discussion on...

I'm off to Boone, N.C. for a few days because there is absolutely nothin' to do there and that's what my body and mind needs... Okay, I can catch up on my "Nation" readin'as I haven't so much as opened the last three issues...

But this being Sunday, I will interject that as a Christain (not that that makes me any better than anyone else or makes my opinions more correct), I do see a ***part*** to be played out in the churchs, jsut as in the 60's... But, mind you, that is a "part" and not the entire ball of wax...

Now, I'm goin' to go pack the car and the P-Vine an' I are gettin' away from the farm and these drotted construction projects that enslave me...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 09:02 AM

I just don't have much faith in our government..seems to me that candidates should be screened for mental stability and intelligence.
There used to be a hydro-therapy treatment that involved being tangled in a sheet or something and a vat of icy water. It looked like a miserable treatment. That's what I vote for. Water might not set up as much screeching by people who like to shout about inhumane practices.

I also don't have much faith in the religion rigamarole, but people do have an inherent need to Believe in something. Some folks who go to church really DO believe and making them give up their faith or sneak around to worship would be cruel.
I don't think it's the book and code of conduct stuff that's the problem there..it's the leaders and Power. A reformation would have to come from inside and probably the only thing it would do is make more martyrs. There's really nothing wrong with the 'golden rule'.
When it got bloody enough, it would sure be a Media Spectacle. If that happens, I hope I have sense enough to miss the entire story.

Churches in my town aren't offensive and they're slowly winding down on their own. Here, it's mostly a harmless social activity. Our population is about 450, we have 4 churches..probably about 50 regular church goers total.
If churches were taken away, there would be a lot of nice folks who would sink in despair and wither away. The freaky powerstrivers would create huge idiotic displays and revel in their new Celebrity Status.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 08:35 AM

"We're easier to Control as long as we stay divided."

             And easier to divide as long as we stay religious. Look how Britain dominated India for all that time.


       "Civil War, WWII and now have something in common...all three included a president going out of office to leave someone else to deal with civil unrest. I don't know much about WWI--does it fit the pattern..."

             I'm not sure what can be made of this. Lincoln and FDR both died in office, and Bush and Wilson were both brain dead when they left office. Of course Bush was always brain dead so the analogy doesn't seem to fit. Lincoln was survived by Andrew Johnson, the first presidnet ever impeached (though he survived it); FDR was survived by Harry Truman, who started the Korean War, and Wilson was survived by Warren G. Harding, probably Americas crookedest president until Reagan came along.

            Maybe if Bush were subjected to electro-shock theorapy, something could be revived before he left office, but if history tells us anything, the next president will be a disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 04:20 AM

Civil War, WWII and now have something in common...all three included a president going out of office to leave someone else to deal with civil unrest. I don't know much about WWI--does it fit the pattern?
I think if we (or someone better prepared) don't figure out how to short circuit the process, we may very well be headed toward a terrible situation. A Revolution would be fine with me..to a point..but a Revolution would also be another CivWar and I really don't think we'd be in better shape when the handful of Power/Money folks get the rest of the Money/Power.
In a battle between rich and poor, who would come out ahead?

I'd like to see the 'hate crime' label changed to "antagonism" It's a clearer definition. Psychologically, hatred is probably a close cousin to anger..which is presumably a natural feeling. Being mad (whether reasonably or not) is different from picking fights..isn't it?

Internet sounds like a good fl to me. It crosses the spectrum better than any religious group can and keeps all of us from having to travel around eating casseroles at hundreds of community gatherings where the audience would be people who were already sold on the idea of Getting Along. Teens would be a good market for fl.com to influence--their mindset is more flexible by nature than adults and they're ready to get out there and change the world.

Bobert, I think nearly every community strongly distrusts anything having to do with gov't and/or laws. I wonder how long it will be before we get sense enough to try voting in a commoner as president. I'm willing to bet that it won't happen because a normal/average person wouldn't get nominated and backed.

Do you think fl.com would be allowed to flourish if it started making a noticeable difference? We're easier to Control as long as we stay divided.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Greg B
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:36 PM

It is inescapable that Martin Luther King was a religious figure.
From his name to the cadence of his delivery of his secular speeches,
he was steeped in Christianity.

To usurp the anti-abortion bumper sticker's rhetoric: 'You
can't be Christian and racist.'

Nor can you be Christian and homophobic.

My own rather radical inclusiveness was founded, ironically,
in Catholicism. A Catholicism which has since retreated from
same, but that's as may be. Like a wave depositing driftwood
on the floor, the magisterium has retreated, but it's left me
here.

The problem is that the charlatans will use religion to confirm
their own phobias, be it homophobia, xenophobia, or (in most cases
truth to tell) autophobia.

But it's VERY telling, isn't it, that in the Baptist religion,
dominant in the American South, the very cradle of Jim Crow, the
churches remain with very few exceptions, segregated.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:01 PM

I do what I can, but I can't be the fL.

                   I agree with Bobert that Bush has been so awful that people have been able to see where that line of thinking will take us, and folks are turning away from it.

                   I have a different take on "hate crimes." I don't think you should criminally prosecute somebody for what they are thinking. I do think the principal was right in suspending the students. But it gets confusing after that. The kid who was beaten wasn't involved in the nooses, so the connection with the nooses to Mychal Bell was really conveyed by the adult community. They should have known better, and that's the scary part.

                   I also agree with Bobert that much has been lost over the course of the last three decades. It looks to me like this insanity started with Reagan, and hopefully it will end with Bush II.

                   As far as what to do about it, I think the next step involves a more sober look than Dr. King gave us. I don't disagree with anything he said, but he was a man of goD, and while that brought him an audience in the 1960's, I think we need to find a larger venue now.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 06:59 PM

Well, I'd love to be the "fl" but, ahhhhhh, I've3 got too much on my plate right now... (LOL)... But seriously, the civil rights movement gained traction during and after WW II... Dr. King didn't rise to be it's leader until the early 60's...

Sometimes things change because it time for them to change... I believe that our country has been in a 3 decade funk and is just now having to take yet another look at itself... For this, I thank George Bush and his policies... They have been so horrid that only an insane person would want to continue down Bush Lane thinking that things would get better... Bush Lane is a dead end... As is Jena Lane... Another dead end...

Most Americans may have been dumbed down over the past 3 decades but even with the dumbin' down I believe that most Americans are ready for some different story lines...

Dr. King was the master story line man... We don't have him but what we do have is something that is as powerfull and that is the medium that we here in Mudville have come to almost take for granted and that is the internet...

Yeah, if I had to go out on a limb I'd have to say that the internet is the new "fl/FL" and that it alone can carry the ball quite nicely between fl/FL's....

Now back to laws... I do believe that Tolstoy was correct in his observation that goverment is nothing more than the cabose and last in but being last in ain't bad sometimes... What it means is that it ain't rammin' stuff down people throats before they are ready... I believe that Americans are ready for "hate crimes" to be revisted and modified so that kids don't think it's okay to hang nooses... I believfe that we have come this far...

Okay, granted I live in a rural Virgina community where the folks aren't ready... Heck, most of them hate anything that has to do with laws or the government... But I don't think that Page County, Va. is representative of America on the whole...

I could be wrong on what I am sensing but I don't think so... I believe that Jena happened for a purpose...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 05:08 PM

Any reason YOU can't be the fl?
Or Bobert..or me, or anyone else?

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 05:03 PM

Well, if you follow the dialogue--at least the way I understand it--we have set forth a few suggestions that a number of people can agree on in terms of making things better. But the political realities are not letting good ideas come to the surface. The reason--if I'm understanding Bobert correctly--is because the people with power like things the way they are, because everything works pretty well for them now.

            We understand that in order to change things, new ideas have to be presented to a great number of people. These people might be very hard to convince because of their various addictions, and if you threaten to take their drug away from them in order to get them to listen, you're probably going to find a very hostile audience.

            So that takes us back to square-one. You have a number of folks who don't really want to devote a great deal of energy to solving problems that they don't think will benefit them directly. I think one would have to expose religion for what it really is, and convince the users, before you could get to the next step.

          Re: Waiting. No, I think it would be a mistake to wait. Things are going to get any better until somebody does something. But I don't see FL just dropping out of the clouds at the very moment he's needed, so we need to go ahead without him.

          Re: Capitalization. I was just responding to somebody else's comment, who seem put out by the situation. Responding so as not to cut anyone out of the conversation

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 04:13 PM

Who said anything about Waiting, Rig?
WHY do we have to wait?
Isn't it OUR responsibility as much as anyone elses?

I don't consistently capitalize FL..and aside from that, I don't figure it's anybody's business what I choose to capitalize any more than it's my business what anyone chooses to misspell.
However, since I'm sure you'll all be curious, I'll let you know if I end up going to hell for it.

It will certainly be a pleasant surprise if Zinn or a politician creates a noteworthy change for the better. I do not think it can be done from the "top"..they can make laws, but laws do NOT change mindsets.

M

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 11:45 AM

Well, at least three good things have come outta this situation:

1. We are *now* having a long overdue discussion...

2. Jena has served as a perfectly good example of what not to do for other communities...

and 3. Congress has actually conducted hearings on how things were handled...

But beyond that, I am somewhat encouraged that Congress may revisit the way the "hate crimes" laws are written which is a good start and perhaps will be a step toward changing our culture... Yeah, I realize that most overt racists will die as overt racists but maybe knowing that they can go to jail for acting out their overt racism will at the very least send a message to their kids that this stuff just ain't right...

We, at the very least, have a start and contrary to the popular opinion, we are a "liberal" society when it comes down tro individual issues... Of course, no one wants to be called a liberal... (LOL...) even if they are...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 09:01 AM

Yeah, I think if we are capitalizing FL, it would probably make sense to capitalize Jesus too. After all, it's a name.

          But getting back to the issue of remediating racism, I don't think we can just sit around and wait for FL to happily show up. I mean, look how long the Jews have been waiting for whatever, or whoever it is for whom they wait.

          We need to plot a course of action with only the meager tools we have, in order to make the world a better place for everybody.

          I thought Howard Zinn's idea was a good one. Another one was put forth by a political figure, but I don't recall which one now, and that was to require every person graduating from high school to commit to two years of public service. That could be the military, the peace corps, the conservation corps, and a number of other organizations that maybe haven't been put together yet. That would creat a situation like the military has now, where inner city youths are thrown together in a barracks with kids from Montana, Mississippi, and Guam.

          Bobert has a really good point, though, as long as buffoons have their hands on the levers of power, all the good ideas in the world won't do you any good.

          There are good people out there, though, and some of them are in positions of influence. And Sam Brownback dropped out of the Republican primary yesterday. That has to be a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: GUEST,St Timoniousness
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 02:54 AM

ahhhhemmmmm! My daughter, ye've failed to capitalize Jesus, sure'n ye did.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 10:25 PM

yup, wrong messages galore..

FL won't stand a chance of doing anything without a catchy approach. Game sounds like a good strategy..I was thinking along the lines of pleasant/fun--getting people involved before they realized they were involved. A competitive out-to-win type game might not work so well since there's a rampant tendency to knock down anybody who might be standing in the way already.
It's a serious issue full of confrontation..Play sounds like a sensible way to keep on track and avoid drastic break-downs.

I sort of think the deadly part of both church and school is mostly Power junk and screwy priorities/boundaries. I agree that if they're not going to teach responsibility and relationship stuff (basic getting along..not dating and such) the topic of sex should be left alone.
FLs campaign should avoid discussions of sex and jesus in equal measure.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 09:56 PM

Well, Rigs, Howard Zinn is absolutely correct but lets getr back to the politics of education... The folks who have made it their crusade to control our schools are the same folks who blindly vote Republican... These are not independent thinkers... Thay are "rule people"... Yeah, lots and lots of rules... R%ules, rules and more rules... And don't tell my kids about sex... That's my job... Even tho they never quite getting around to actually doing it, mind you...

Yeah, this is School Board, USA... Bunch of reactionaries... Especially in the South and Midwest... Bunch of Nazis... And so the schools continue to churn out rote-memory-nazi kids who can't think...

This is the real deal... I have no faith that this will change in my life time... It hasn't in the last 40 years, that much is for sure...

Now as the FL???

Yeah, beyond the strickness of our public school system, people of all ages yern to be challenged... Yeah the "game" is everything... That is one thing that schools do well... Games, games and more games because games are like war... You have winners and loosers and this is the USA and we always win... Right???

So the next FL will make it a game... Dr. King, in a way, made it a game... Yeah, the next FL will figure out the dynamics of social change and use the current culture against itself, much they way that Dr. King did... It ain't rocket science... The template is there... The candidate??? Maybe there and maybe not... Time will tell... Onbe thing is for sure and that is the USA in in some deep sh*t on many fault lines an' if it is to survive it's own feelings of importance it will have to face it's weakest links... Institutional racism has to be at the very top of the weakest links list... If we win this one we will have changed out collective thinking and be able to better serve as a role modle for the rest of the world...

Right now, we are sending out the wrong message...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 09:51 PM

They might be especially unwilling to wear them if the front said "Problems" and the rest was on the back?

Raising the salary and expecting it to take a few years to show a difference probably would be a good thing..makes sense to me. There'd be more people willing to compete for the job and that would mean a broader variety of options for each school.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 09:43 PM

I think what Zinn had in mind was this: if you double teacher's salaries now, a number of people would be getting a lot more money than they're really worth. But, in the not too distant future, you would start attracting a lot of talented people who would be teachers but find better paying jobs now in medicine, law, and industry.

                Within a reasonable period of time, the mediocre teachers would begin to retire--probably with the worst getting out first--and you could really get education in America on a forward thinking track. It would solve a lot of the acedemic problems the country faces now, and I think it would go a long way to getting a handle on social problems like racism. I think it would make a difference.

                The slogan that school boards could use on the Tee shirts I'm sure they wouldn't wear is:

                     PROBLEMS - LET'S WORK TO SOLVE THEM

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 09:13 PM

Well, my guess is that cloning might be an option to consider..but only if he wasn't embalmed. I think we've probably got enough leaders made of plastic and chemicals for now.

I don't think throwing money to the teachers without raising the expectations AND preparing them better would make much difference. However, as long as their school boards allow it, I bet they'd be glad to use FLs propaganda packets in classrooms...and they'd probably show an interest in a Field Trip or Assembly if it was provided for them.

School boards might approve if FL tosses them a free t-shirt. What slogan works for them?

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 09:02 PM

"Look at the Christain Right... It has successfully used religion to harnhess hatred and intollerance..."

                And it bends it to its own ends, which usually means generating profit.


    "Yes, if Johnny Applechrist is trying to urge people toward a more socially healthy mentality, it would be essential for him to treat everyone on all sides as equals/partners...even when they refused to respond in kind."

             Ten thousand Woody Guthries might do it. Now that we have the ability, maybe we could exhume and clone. What do you think?

                   Bobert: I think you're giving up on public schools too early in the game. Howard Zinn says we can correct a lot of what's wrong with America by simply doubling teacher's saleries. I think he's on to something.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 08:17 PM

Bobert,
How does our hypothetical Fearless Leader go about teaching/encouraging people to Think?
I agree..it's becoming a lost skill. It's not that hard to teach kids to Think (Manners too..another lost skill) but our FL would be dealing mostly with adults.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 08:12 PM

Yes, if Johnny Applechrist is trying to urge people toward a more socially healthy mentality, it would be essential for him to treat everyone on all sides as equals/partners...even when they refused to respond in kind.

It seems to me that FL would need to start being listened to long before the shriekers knew he was on the bandwagon. There is a lot of Power for those peddling hate and they won't give it up easily. Therefore, I think it would be best to ease in with non-affiliateds first.

Propaganda campaign?
We're a society of inane slogans..FL will need some in order to help his first subscribers have some idea of how to share the message. If the plan involved gathering folks up, helping them unite and prepare for individual action as leaders on their own, propaganda will assist in keeping the idea from getting bastardized along the way by insiders.

FL hasn't even made a trip to the library to begin historical background learning..might turn out best for him to stay completely ground-level as the process develops, in which case, the 'converts' (going to need a word to use instead of converts/followers soon) can take the information and do whatever they want--and leave our seed sprinkler out of that part entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 07:55 PM

Rigs,

You say you want to deal with reality... But then you want to keep the discussion of religion and churches out of this discussion... That, my frined, is not dealing with reality... Face it, our population prides itself on religion and attending church...
This is our "reality" and this is where the3 seeds will be planted that lead people to think differently...

Look at the Christain Right... It has successfully used religion to harnhess hatred and intollerance...

The tables are slowly turning away from the Christain Right toward the Christain Center or in many churches, the Christain Left... The new breed of Evangelicals are more concerned with the environoment and poverty than they are about Republican wedge issues...

Hey, I ain't Bible thumpin' here... I'm just tryin' to say that if we are going to bring about a fundamental (poor word) change in out collective attitudes that we won't do it without the churches...

Like I said, the schools is like a stacked deck of cards... Teacher do the best they can but the curriculum is being controlled by the right wing... And the right winf don't want teachers taliin' about civil rights, sex education or evolution, for that matter... What we are teaching our kids is revisionistic mythology... What we are not doing is telling our kids the truth... And we are not teaching our kids to, ahhhhhh, think...

I'll repeat it one more time: Don't expect this current school system to have any impact on institutional racism... It is incapable... Plus, now the Robert's Court couldn't care less about our schools even being intergrated???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 07:26 PM

Frankly, I think you need to leave the concept of "church" out of it. These are places set up for the purpose of meeting, but they suffer from the same disfunctional qualities that the racist organizations suffer from. The congregation sees itself as a group established to protect itself from other groups. I think that's why most of the wars in the world are religiously based--Jews against Islamists--Protestants against Catholics--Hindus against Moslems, and etc. Either that, or they are really economic struggles and the sides identify themselves by religion. The struggle in Ireland was a lot like that.

                I don't think you can treat them as followers. I think you need to treat them as people. I think that's why the Morris Dees approach doesn't work. He wants to attack the leaders and ingore the follower, so the followers simply seek out another leader, often worse than the first one.

                Frankly, as far as the black and white problem in America, I think MLK went as far as he could with it. I think Barbara Jordan might have carried the ball a little farther down the field, if she'd lived, but...

                  What you need is Jesus Christ without religion, and that's a pretty tall order. The Dali Lama might be able to spare a few moments of his time, now that he's no longer tied up in Washington, but then, of course, he's a Buddhist, so that probably won't work either.

                   Maybe ten thousand Johnny Appleseeds would fill the bill. Whatever the case, the haters would have to be treated as partners and equals, I think, for any kind of progress to be made.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 06:55 PM

I'll gladly agree that FL would not get far on a campaign designed to 'convert' (sorry, can't think of another handy word at the moment) through a spiritual appeal.
I do think a successful approach would need to use church, school, media, etc as Tools though. Presuming FL turns out to have very strong Leadership qualities, I believe it's possible to cover more area by wise use of what's available and established. No reason to reinvent the wheel. Besides, that's where the easiest meeting places are.

What would encourage people to attend a (what would the rallys be called?) gathering thing? Nothing is gained if nobody is interested. I believe there's a fair percentage of people who would be willing to do a little bit toward a positive impact if they could be lured to listen. I think most people like to learn and nearly everybody abhors being talked down to.

So, FL has learned the history from about 1700 up to now..from a variety of sources and perspectives so he can talk confidently.
Is it more effective for him to pull them as Followers..or to plant a seed and send them out hoping for the best? Would it be more productive to try for the unaffiliated, or to aim directly at the ones already following a path of hatred?

I honestly would like to see if a reasonable plan can be worked out by simply talking back and forth. Ideas are easy, Implementation isn't. I imagine a lot of folks have ideas about what should be done but I've never seen a plan for How.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 06:12 PM

I think FL would have to study the proponents of racism to begin with. For a long time I had trouble figuring out why poor whites in the 1860's would eagerly go out and fight for the South, when it would obviously be in their economic interest not to do so. I finally figured out that having somebody to look down on was more important to them than economic prosperity.

          I think this is still a strong motivator for the useful idiots of racism. The leaders, like David Duke and Matthew Hale want power, so they need followers. I think FL would need to concentrate on the followers.

          I was in Northern Idaho a few years ago when the Aryan Nations organization was chewed up by the political forces of Morris Dees. I would run into some of the rank & file memebership, from time to time, and I'm here to tell you, none of them will ever be candidates for Mensa.

          The one thing they thought they had going for them was the strength of their numbers. I get the impression that as long as they, as a group, could gain a feeling of self worth by putting down other people, they were content and vitalized, and were scared literally to death at the thought of losing their social hand-hold in the world.

          Morris Dees was sucessful in scattering them, and putting a few of them in jail, but the others were more committed than ever to pursue their endeavers. I think the Morris Dees approach does more harm than good.

          In any event, I've run on long enough, but the key to the whole thing, I think, is to appeal to their intellect and not try to appeal to their spiritual.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 05:25 PM

Apparently, I was too subtle in my invitation to step off the religion soapbox for a while.
I was asking what process FL should follow. It makes sense to define the job before taking applications.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 07:23 AM

To begin with, hopefully our new FL would not be the
Reverend FL, or he wouldn't have any credibility. And if he/she wasn't, then he'd have to make sure people were coming to the discussion without any hidden agendas of their own, and were actually in the process to find honest solutions.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 12:51 AM

Ok, someone earlier said we need a new Dr King. Let's stop the religion thing before it turns into full-out bashing, and go with the idea of "what if we had a new leader willing to take this on"

This Fearless Leader believes that the symptoms stem from frustration...and the theory s/he is going on is that we first need to identify and eliminate the sources of Frustration which are resulting in violence, hatred, intolerance, etc.

It seems logical for FL to begin the "Fix Campaign" in the area close to home.

What process would you have our hypothetical FL follow to successfully make a noticeable improvement?

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 11:48 PM

I don't suppose it's ever occurred to those of you who disparage religion here that the civil rights movement and the anti-slavery movement before it weredriven by religious groups, and were and are closely tied to religious groups.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 09:11 PM

I think if we treated our schools with a little more respect they might help us a great deal. I think only the public schools can do that, though, as a general rule. Giving people vouchers to send their children to church camp only leads us farther back into the dark ages.

             Frankly, I don't have a lot of hope for any kind of churches, new or otherwise. We could look at it as an evolutionary process, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 08:03 PM

The best deal is the deal where everyone finally gets it, Rigs...

The better deal is where enough folks get it to put and keep pressure on those who don't...

The Pat Robertsons and the James Dobsons aren't the future of the evangelical movement... They are the history... There is a wave of new hip evangelicals... They are called "new churchs", I believe... These folks are not only ready to cut a deal with the left but anxious... These evangelicals have taken up two major left issues, the envirnoment and the way we treat our poor...

I beliebve this is the deal that we are in the process of seein' made... Yeah, we need to get these newbees into the fold and once that has occured then "nooses" aren't too much of a stretch (no pun intended)...

I am not all that fatlistic about our future... But I am very much suspect of our school system as any vehicle for changing a culture of racism...

The courts and the new churches, IMO, are going to lead the way...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 07:39 PM

Bobert - I agree with everything you say in the posting above. I understand that that's the hand we're dealt, and we have to make the best of it.

                   Still, I don't see how anything is lost in trying to broker a better deal.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 06:57 PM

It's probably important to point out that the Ku Klux Klan, the World Church of the Creator, and the Aryan Nations are all religious organizations. None of these folks would be terribly helpful in any effort to solve the frustration of racism. Of course, that's just my opinion.

                  It is further my opinion that any attempt to reason with these folks would not be fruitful unless they could be induced to digest factual, scientific information that would prove to them that a superior race is not biologically possible, or at least highly improbable. But when confronted with the truth as I have come to know it, they simply run off into their fairy tale worlds, where they feel snug and cozy, and happily deny reality.

               I think this is basically the way religion works, though it is more extreme for some than others. So if you are really going to get down to the brass-tacks of solving complicated issues like racism, you have to get everyone to the bargaining table in a sober state of mind. I submit that that is going to be very hard to do as long as there are Pat Robertsons and James Dobsons out there telling gullible people that they just need to "trust in the lord," and that facing reality is not realy necessary.

               They can gleefully hang nooses, beat people who look different than themselves, roll around on the floor of the church on Sunday morning, god forgives them, and on Monday morning they are ready to go out and beat somebody else.

               There's no end in sight, as long as there's a built in escape mechanism like religion.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 06:45 PM

Well, Rigs, our current "reality" is that most folks in this country consider themselves, ahhhhh, religious... This is the hand that we are playing... And most people according to a recent USA Today poll don't even believe in science anymore as a majority of Americans believe in creationism with Adam and Eve being created less than 10,000 years ago...

Why is this??? Simple... The Ruling Class wants people dumb and at each other's throats so they spend lots of money creating meaningless wedge issues to keep people from seein' that it's not one's believe in evolution v. creationism taht really matters but why it is that their family's income has been stagnant for the last 20 years and why stuff is so expensive at a time when the Ruling Class is telling US that we have never had it so good...

Racism is one of the tools used by the Ruling Class... It's nuthin' new... Goes back to the old therory of "divide and conquer" so they keep US divided... This ain't about Dems or Repubs... It's about the folks who have corraled all the country's assests for themselves...

Yeah, it's easy to say that eductaion can lead US out of this mess and that is absolutely true... But don't count on Boss Hog's school systems that tailor the curriculum to keep kids from learning to think... Most of the teachers came thru the same sytem and aren't able to think either... Oh sure, they are dedicated... I can't fault them tat... But most are completely incapable of independent thought...

And guess what??? One of the great eductationhal tools is Hollywood and Hollywood, contrary to the right wing's pronouncement that it's all a bunch of liberals, ain't makin' the kinds of movies anymore that push people to think... Those days are gone...

So it comes down to having to educate people thru enforcing laws... Yeah, law enforcement can be a powerfull eductaional tool and, at present, is IMO, all we have until the new breed of evangelicals gain a foothold...

No one ever said it was going to be easy to kill Jim CDrow and it's very possible that Jim Crow cannot be killed but we kicked his butt purdy good in the 60's and he's due for another...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 06:30 PM

So..if we could just get everybody to ditch religion, it would all go away? All religions, or shall we just select the ones we disapprove of?
What in the world does that notion have in common with Reality?

I thought you were going to tell me how the Education Plan could be done.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 02:08 PM

"How?"

       Leave religion in the past where it belongs, and deal with reality.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 01:44 PM

The best advice is to ignore the next noose like piece of rope you see.

Its always best to ignore the troll.

And for God's sake don't tell Sharpton anything.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 01:35 PM

How?

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 08:36 AM

"--unless you're promoting the idea of some kind of brainwashing technique."

             Melissa - Brainwashing is what they are vicitms of now, I think, and I don't know what to suggest as for your aversion to clowns. I think Al Sharpton is a clown, and Jena would probably be better off if he went away.

             I think the concept of a "hate crime" is self defeating. I don't think you can punish people for their thoughts, and hanging nooses simply isn't a crime. I would agree it's provocative, and bad form, and should be punishable by school officials but not by agents of courts.

             By education, I guess I've noticed that people who seem to drift into racist groups seem like the very least educated people I've run across, and people who do not are usually more aware of what's going on around them.
             It further seems to me that with all of the anthropolical and genetic information that's available to day, not to mention all of the scientific findings that become public every day, I just can't imagine how anyone in this day and age can continue to believe in terms of "superior and inferior" races.
             It would have been more believable with Hitler in the 1940's, and probably understandable with Columbus in 1492, but not now.
             I find the same disbelief in people who continue to follow various ancient superstitions, given all of the knowledge that's out there today, and I doubt very much if you could find an atheist who is a racists at the same time. I think there is a connection here. Find someone who will happily believe in fairy tales, and you'll find a person who can be molded into racism.

             I doubt if "work shops" will do it, but if you can get people to simply deal with reality, I think you'll be well on your way to stamping out racism.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 07:59 AM

Hmmmmmm, M, I thought that you were talkin' about my town!?!?!...

Seems there is a culture/cancer on the moral fablic of our society that says intolerance is just fine... And I don't see any major movement, other than groups like Interfaith, that are carrying the message that it ain't fine...

I mean, we have a president (slight thread drift) who has publicly stated "you're either with us or against us"... There is now way to find common ground with that attitude...

We need a major shift in thinking... We need another Dr. King...

But until then, we need to have the courgae to enforce "hate crime" laws...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 02:45 AM

How do you propose the education be done, Riginslinger?
I know the Jena situation was kids..but I can't think of a single age group that would willingly embrace teachings that run contrary to what they understand/accept as 'right'--unless you're promoting the idea of some kind of brainwashing technique.

If there was a way to get everybody in the country to participate in a workshop/lecture series where the message was "Everybody is equal. That means nobody is worse than you..and it also means nobody is better than you" there would be a large percentage who would leave the sessions thinking "hey, I never thought of it that way, but it makes sense" and there'd also be a percentage thinking "what a load of shit"

The kids have access to as much positive propaganda as the rest of us. They (and many others) choose not to learn. Some of them are 'going along' but some no doubt feel justified in doing things that they know society considers Wrong..whether they consider it wrong themselves or not.

Sometimes people feel justified in doing things that they know are wrong--and feeling justified feels like Right.
I don't think anybody would disagree that the whole country could use some education. Some of us could benefit from more rewiring than others and even with some extremely intelligent deep, extensive thought, there will always be folks who resist for one reason or another. Some like being mean. Some think everybody else needs some learning but They're ok. Some would simply resist because that's just what they do. Some enjoy rivalry.

Nearly everyone is ready to say "Yes! Educate THEM" but I think it's bigger than that. We're all lacking something and I don't think there's one answer that will even make a dent toward solving the mess. We'd all be glad to see THEM educated, huh?
I have pretty good discretion, but I absolutely detest clowns. When I see one, I get away. I do not beat them up and have not made an effort to find out what the obvious symbol for Clown Intolerance is. I have no interest in embracing the idea that they're a wholesome part of life.
How would you educate me out of this?

Every one of us has weird mindsets.
I'm in a position to influence children..the children and I are in a position to influence our community. Our small town is peacefully diverse. Our town has a festering situation which is not race related, but it IS being done in the name of retaliation/comeuppance and hate by a group working together to teach us a lesson.
It pisses me off and scares me.
How would you teach me around reacting when the time comes for my community to defend itself? Is it wrong for my community to defend itself? The other group feels justified. Are they wrong? They're making strikes and when the festernal restraints burst, it will appear that the community started it. We have asked for help from our State and been ignored. Our story sounds unbelievable and absurd and from the outside, I'm sure it looks like the townies are crazy...at least it would look like we're crazy if we were still trying to get help by talking.

For a purdy smart lady, I do tend to ramble on in an unladylike manner at times..but I'm trying to ramble open-mindedly in hopes that I'll learn something along the line. Maybe I'll figure out a way to keep MY town out of the news. Maybe I'll figure out how to help direct upcoming CivWar events in a way that can avoid friction. Saving the World begins at home.

There are honest people everywhere, Riginslinger. I imagine that town is a miserable place to be these days.

M

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 10:08 PM

I suppose my cure for ingorance is education. And maybe the principal didn't go far enough, but he suspended the students, and he was countermanded for even doing that.

          It tells you that there are honest people down there. If the kids know better, they can't plead ignorance.