BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 12:30 PM

Wasn't aware that Quarcoo was "Of color" Azizi.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 12:37 PM

In this life if you feel you have been dealt a shitty hand of cards you can do one of two things:

Sit there and greet about poor me how bad everything is for me.

Or get of yer backside and do yer damndest to be the very best you ye kin be.

Ahm tired. Ahm Auld and ahm grumpy as hell so tay ooto ma road "This bitch bites"

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Beer
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 12:39 PM

In the early 60's I went to a "Black/White" integrated high school in Nova Scotia. It was the first time for this movement and it was the best thing to ever have taken place. I made friends quickly and they still are my best friend today.

Spaw. I love your posts. You have a way of making me laugh and making me think real hard about what you are also really saying. Like Azizi, Peace, and so many others it's a pleasure knowing you all.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 12:45 PM

"Try posting here as a conservative. Then come to me with your whining." - John Hardly

Political opinions are a matter of personal choice, influenced by life experience. Not quite the same thing as dealing with "race".
...................................

Recognising that that we have some significant difference from the people surrounding us can mean facing a dilemma. (By "significant" I don't mean necessarily important in itself, but as marking us out in a way that can be seen as important). We can ignore it as irrelevant until it become, which is liable to be interpreted as secretive or even as dishonest or cowardly. Or we can make a point of drawing attention to it, even when it's not immediately relevant, which is liable to get interpreted as obsessive.

There are internet forums in which virtually everyone contributing was male, and assumed to be male unless they specifically indicate they are not I can imagine a women posting to such a forum would come up against analogous difficulties to those mentioned by Azizi. As it is that doesn't arise, and there is no such assumption. I've no idea what proportion of us are male or female, just that there are a lot of both kind.

I'd like it better if the Mudcat was more like that when it came to "race", and those kind of difficulties didn't arise. I very much value Azizi's contribution, including the implicit reminder that we are a bit monochromatic.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 12:55 PM

My dear Azizi, you are trying to saw sawdust.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 12:55 PM

"To all the Republicans on Mudcat who hold down the fort and add their voice/s in this forum made of of mostly liberal {if not lefty} folkies, in that regard if not in any other besides our shared humaness, you have my sincere respect and sympathy."


Thanks.

But if you were subjected to the comments that are acceptable here to be made about conservatives in general and Republicans specifically, I think a few more people might come to your defense.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 12:58 PM

Azizi and I have gone back and forth on the "race" issue before - simply stated, I don't believe that there is such a thing as different races, and I find the identification of individuals of primarily European origin as "white", as though there was some purity associated with the color and with them, as abhorrent. I think that the "one drop rule" is especially sickening. At the same time, I appreciate that the life experiences of individuals with ancestry derived from African slaves has been different from those of us in the US with different backgrounds. If she (and others) prefer to call this social/ethnic group a different race, so be it. I accept that this is the majority opinion, but I reserve the right to disagree.

As for Mudcat being difficult for people of color? Perhaps so. There are people here whose backs go up immediately when the subject of the English in Ireland is raised and others who tend to go ballistic in the political threads. Azizi (I have gathered from other threads about other topics) strongly identifies with the socio-ethnic group commonly referred to as "African-American", and that is her choice and certainly her privilege. (I don't want to use the term "Afro-centric", because that has several meanings, and I really don't know if any of them truly refer to her.) At the same time, I think she needs to accept that discussions here cover a very wide range of topics, and references to race are not directed to her and she does not have to address them unless she wants to. She is not the designated Mudcat spokesperson for African-Americans!

Azizi may or may not be the only Black person here. Leechong may be the only Chinese national and Liz the Squeak may be the only tax collector. Joe Offer may be the only retired snoop and I may be the only retired Army officer. So what? We are all individuals and we are all here because, for one reason or another, we enjoy the Mudcat community and find it has something to offer to us.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 01:00 PM

I think that the main reason that people of color (why does that term sound like something from the 19th Century?) don't come to Mudcat is that this forum is primarily based on the mutual interest of its participants in the subject of Folk and Traditional American and British Music Forms. Except for Blues Music, I don't get the impression that traditional music forms are of interest to the black community, nor are they being handed down in the culture. Maybe this is a glaring example of prejudcice on my part, and I welcome an opposing pov. Were this an exclusively Blues oriented forum, I believe the attendance of blacks would be stronger, and were it a jazz forum, stronger still, at least among middle-aged black people.

Now, as for the loneliness of Azizi as the single torch-bearer for a black point of view here, I think it must be very difficult, and I have seen her efforts in this regard, and admired her for them. Prejudice is a recurring theme in our conversations here, and while I don't always agree with her, Azizi has been an astute advocate. And she's mad no secret of her race, so I really question those who calim not to be aware of it. They are apparently being disingenuous, or else not paying attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 01:01 PM

wow. Some kind of personal best for typos in the above comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Peace
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 01:02 PM

"Were this an exclusively Blues oriented forum, I believe the attendance of blacks would be stronger, and were it a jazz forum, stronger still, at least among middle-aged black people."

Tweed might have the 'answer' for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 01:16 PM

One thing about the expression "people of colo(u)r" is that it does serve to indicate whether the person posting is North American or not.

While the emphasis of musical discussion here tends to be North American music and music from the British Isles (not at all the same as "British Music"), together with other Anglophone communities round the world, its by no means restricted to that.

There are a myriad varieties of other great folk music traditions around the world, and they all have a place here. (And most of them have been produced by "people of colour", a category which includes by far the bulk of the human race.)

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 01:37 PM

No argument about what a rich tradition folk music enjoys around the world, McG, and whether or not they have a place here. But so far I've seen no threads on "The Sumatran Folk Tradition", while there have been about twenty on Whiskey in the Jar. Now I would think many of us might be interested in Sumatran Folk music, but at present there seems to be a dearth of Sumatrans and a plentitude of Caledonians. Mudcat is certainly inclusive of almost any tradition. Its the willing participants that are lacking.

BTW, no insult intended by including Ireland in the category British Music. I was thinking of the British Isles.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 01:47 PM

Dear Azizi,

I very often read (and enjoy) your posts, because there is a great deal to learn from them.

I find you a very kind, thoughtful and interesting person. You were the only one who took the trouble to tell me how to put links into Mudcat, a long while back now, something which I appreciated very much, then you came over to message me, and again, your kindness shone through in your words.

For me it is your spirit, Azizi, which gives you your colour, and that colour shines out!

So please, never stop posting, thinking, questioning or informing us, no matter how difficult it may be for you at times, because many of us are 'out here' reading what you write.

We all need to look at things from the point of view of others, to understand more clearly and more wisely.

You help us to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 01:48 PM

Funny you should mention that Lonesome EJ - there's a film out on DVD called Sumatran Folk Cinema.

And going by this trailer on YouTube it looks bloody brilliant.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 01:51 PM

artbrooks said:" -Azizi (I have gathered from other threads about other topics) strongly identifies with the socio-ethnic group commonly referred to as "African-American", and that is her choice and certainly her privilege. --"

it isn't a choice. It is an identity you are born into. Nobody can opt out. Being an "African-American" is thrust upon you. That's the difference. I can choose the social and political issues that I want to fight about, and can move on to whatever interests me, but, try as she might, Azizi is tied to that issue, for the duration.

As with every one of us, however, she does have a some choice in how she addresses the issue and that choice, ultimately, is the the true reflection of a person's character.

Azizi has, for some reason, chosen to spend a lot of time here at Mudcat--she is a folklorist, a collector, a teacher, and a performer, and she has given to us, honestly and unstintingly, from her discipline in all of those areas. She has invested a lot here, and for that reason, there is a lot to be learned from every thread that she's contributed to--and it is positive stuff, about the folklore/folk music related stuff that Mudcat is really about.

Its time to listen to what she has to say, not only because it is honest and true, but because she is one of the very best of us, and she has invested more than most in making this a better community-

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 02:05 PM

M.Ted, I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make - or perhaps I wasn't being as clear as I could have been. I know and have known many Black Americans (or African-Americans). Many identify themselves more as folkdancers, or soldiers, or New Mexicans, or whatever than by their "race".   That may be the identity that she chooses - that is "thrust upon her" as you put it - but she is not "tied to the issue" unless she wants to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Grab
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 02:08 PM

Re discussion of Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign, the competition is a mixed-race man who is a skin colour commonly called "black" in the US. There are clear indications of black American voters choosing this man overwhelmingly in favour of other candidates - is this not worth mentioning? Hillary has higher popularity amongst women, and I wouldn't expect that mentioning this would be a feminist issue.

I'm not sure about the "there she goes again" - I hope people wouldn't say that, because your posts are usually interesting. (I say "usually" - find me someone who's *always* interesting and I'll shoot them for being annoying. ;-) However, isn't it fair to say that your major interest is in Afro-American culture, and particularly in the increased role that you think African culture should play in that? After all, you've spent years researching African culture, you've created a job for yourself in publicising and teaching African culture to Afro-Americans, and you've done a awful lot of investigation into Afro-American traditions and the connections to African traditions.

In the same way, as a long-term engineer and general geek, my thinking is based on sceptical rationalism: if you can't see it happen then it doesn't work like that, and if you can see it happen then you need to figure why. Like you with race, I can find it hard to avoid responding to creationists and homeopathy fans. I've not had a "what would Grab say" moment, probably cos I'm not that prolific here and there are other more vocal people with that viewpoint. But I've seen similar questions for Wolfgang and JohnInKansas, and Clinton Hammond back in the day.

Online, no-one can see the colour of your skin. So how we're known is by the issues that define us, and those are expressed by the threads we start and the responses we post to other people. For you, that defining issue clearly is African-ness and African-American-ness, and really there *isn't* anyone else on Mudcat who makes that as large a part of their conversations. So I'm glad you've been around to talk to and learn stuff off. But I think you shouldn't then be surprised that people have learnt what your major interests are, right?

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 03:08 PM

I understand what you're saying perfectly well, artbrooks. What I don't understand is, why are you making that point in the first place?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 03:15 PM

If I was born with the skin color referred to as "black", I would not appreciate having the asinine term "African-American" thrust upon me. If I did accept that nomenclature, I would expect the treatment that comes with walking around the world with a chip on my shoulder.

Race may not be a choice, but in 21st century America, racial politics is.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 03:42 PM

Been thinking while I went to store & post office.

Almost 30 years ago, at an open stage in Bethesda MD., there was ONE semi-regular black attendee..a nice guy who played Scruggs-style Bluegrass banjo.

At a music camp my wife goes to in W. Virginia each Summer, there are very few black attendees...one of whom was Rhiannon Giddens of The Carolina Chocolatedrops She was a wonderful performer and amazingly well informed person. ...and I have since met the other two, who were the only black attendees at the concert for Pete, Peggy & Mike Seeger last fall. They are outstanding folks and tour widely..often to mostly white audiences.

   At the FSGW Getaway the last several years, there has been ONE black woman who attended. She was a lovely addition to the group, and participated in a skit. ..and she liked coming so well that last fall she brought her mother!

Now...all of these folks 'may' have had reservations about their lonely status when they first came to these gatherings, and 'may' have found some difficulties at some point, but I never heard about it, and they certainly felt welcome enough to keep attending these events.

I would be more than pleased if more felt the same way and added move voices to the mix...but there IS this cultural difference that makes the musical tastes enough different that it seldom happens.

Obviously, here at Mudcat, where political debates and general BS rages below the line, the situation is a bit different, since comments fly heavy and fast sometimes, and people sometimes say things they might not in RT discussions...but there are similarities, too...and most of us are happy to trade opinions with anyone, regardless of ethnicity. Most of us 'seem' to not even want to consider ethnicity of other Mudcatters when discussing issues OUTSIDE of Mudcat...such as politics. In my view, this applies even to discussions about Obama and the implicit racial/ethnic issues that arise simply because he is who he is!
Last week, I voted for Obama because I think he IS a good choice..articulate, inspirational, intelligent and as far as I can tell...honest! (I would have happily have voted for Barbara Jordan a few years ago, too, if she had been able & willing to run!)
...Now, having said that, I **KNOW** that having Obama as a serious candidate is breaking precedent, and that some folks WILL make it an issue...and therefore that issue gets foisted on even those of us who wish it were NOT an issue. Obama himself has done a remarkably good job of not ignoring his heritage, but still not emphasizing it...which is one more reason to like him!


So...the import of all this is that I wish this thread were not happening...but like Obama's candidacy, I can't see how to avoid it once someone else brings it up.

Darn it, Azizi...I wish YOU were able to come to the Getaway so that I could sit down with you and ..... (I was going to say "discuss this issue", but as I reached for the keys, I realized what I wanted to say was, "NOT discuss this issue" *grin*)...I know that you have a lot to contribute on certain topics (such at the threads on street rhymes and games), and I like having that resource FROM someone 'in the tradition'...but I have the feeling that this thread is creating an issue that feeds on itself and makes even innocent remarks take on flavors that wouldn't have been relevant if the thread hadn't been started...but now it's too late....

You see what a degree in philosophy can DO to one's head?

I could have written 27 other paragraphs, with recitation of personal stories in my 50 years of confronting the vagaries of humanity....but I just don't know where to start...we'll see how it goes.....

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 04:05 PM

Azizi-

I may have been one of the first Mudcatters to welcome you to this forum. And I did so primarily because I found your posts of interest. I still do. And I hope you decide to continue on here and express yourself fully.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 04:17 PM

This thread is an interesting read.

To all who have posted, thank you. This even includes those who didn't say what a wonderful person I am.

:o)

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 04:18 PM

I dunno' why you're so wired up over this Ziz.......Most of us can understand but where I take issue and where you have a real problem that you must confront is the fact you're fockin' 'Burgher. That's a tough one for anyone to overcome.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: peregrina
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 04:23 PM

Hi Azizi,

I was watching this thread with interest but not posting--though it seems important and good for this to be brought into the open. A question for you--but feel free to ignore if it's thread drift--is could we all here do things to make mudcat easier/more welcoming to you, to people of color generally?

Sometimes experiences make me aware of practices and circumstances that amount to a kind of covert or implicit prejudice. Here in England, it's class as often as colour, but I find the new awareness that results helpful.
Best wishes,
mary

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 04:24 PM

**

Fwiw, let me respond to some of Grab's questions:
[Grab's questions are placed in quotation marks and my responses follow}

"However, isn't it fair to say that your major interest is in Afro-American culture, and particularly in the increased role that you think African culture should play in that?"

Actually, my major interest in Mudcat and outside of Mudcat is contemporary children's rhymes. It is true that I started out collecting only African American children's rhymes, but have "branched out" to the collection and study of the continuity and changes in children's rhymes and the role that race/ethnicity may "play" in the text structure, use of colloquialisms and other referents, and performance activities, {among other things} of those rhymes.

However, it's true that I'm interested in the role African cultures have had and continue to have upon African American cultures-particularly in things like naming traditions, music, dance, hair styles, and oratory traditions like the dozens and the use of exclamations to affirm that you hear and agree with a person who is speaking.

"After all, you've spent years researching African culture, you've created a job for yourself in publicising and teaching African culture to Afro-Americans, and you've done a awful lot of investigation into Afro-American traditions and the connections to African traditions".

It's true that I spent years researching {as an armchair folklorist even though for most of those years I didn't know what a "folklorist was} African American and African cultures. However, unfortunately, I've not created a job for myself publicizing and teaching African American culture to African Americans or anyone else. That is unless you're referring to the 2 years thirty years ago that I was employed as an African storyteller with Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh. And that is unless you count the small stipends and small grants that I've received since then to tell {adapted} West African stories, to facilitate African American game song sessions, and to start my website www.cocojams.com. I would trade my real job as a foster care caseworker in a heartbeat {well after giving the required notice, that is} to work "in publicising and teaching" the aspects of African American culture that I know to African Americans and to
non-African Americans.

But sad to say, like so many other folks here, what we love to do is more our avocation than our vocation.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: gnu
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 04:25 PM

Gosh. I was gonna comment about being a Hran player, but I assume the joke would be lost in all this seriousness.

I guess I just "don't see colour". I see my black type written words on a white background... same as everybody elses posts, save the ones who show off. And, that's okay with me too.

Other than that, I'm with Beer. I don't care who says it, I care what they say. As for analyzing this and that and the other and trying to generalize or, conversely, nitpick, whatever, I think it's a load of horseshit.

Before I leave faster than I entered, don't ya find it odd that this site is dedicated to folk and blues? and this site has so many wonderous tributes to the Blues? and that Azizi is the only person here who is black? Do with that what you will. On accounta I don't care how you twist it... that's just the way it is.

PS Azizi.... glad you are here. Hope you get more of your friends involved in this great site, no matter what colour or religion or.... even hran players.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 04:47 PM

Well, I see that this thread has inspired another thread:

thread.cfm?threadid=108935&messages=66
BS: Mudcat is also difficult for.......

I've not read that entire thread, but I think it's tended more toward humor {humour} than anything else.

Which is fine. I would like to laugh more since laughing or at least smiling help one get through some of life's tough times.

Unfortunately, I've not been laughing too much lately. And I take the blame for that, and don't blame anyone else.

When I started this thread I had a great deal of pent up emotion that I needed to express in order to make some sense of it. As I mentioned in my first thread, sometimes writing things down is   better for me than talking things out. Perhaps I should have delt with what I was feeling by myself or by talking it out with friends or family outside of Mudcat rather than sharing it with {inflict it upon?} this community.

But I chose to start this thread, and I appreciate the comments that have been posted here.

As to gnu's comment about "analyzing this and that and the other and trying to generalize or, conversely, nitpick, whatever", I warned you that I'm expressing my Virgo astrological placements. {Virgo energy is said to be over-analytical}

And-as I think I saw on that other "Mudcat Is Difficult" thread- those who believe in astrology are another group for whom Mudcat is difficult. But just as I've been interested in children's rhymes for years, I've also been interested in astrology for even more years.

And did I mention that I also believe in reincarnation?

Did that make the list in that other thread? I'll have to go check it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Rowan
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 04:53 PM

One of the minor entertainments that has amused me on Mudcat, right from the beginning of my visiting, has been to try and discern "identifying features" of those who post. One of the attributes easily hidden behind a nom de plume is the gender of the poster but I have often observed from various posts that the person posting is often not "identifying" their gender by the content or style of that particular post. Some use linguistic identifiers to deliberately draw attention, others just write "color" or "colour" without selfconsciousness. I just enjoy them all.

It might have been the specifics of the thread or the specifics of the posts in which I first encountered Azizi but it was always the topic that caught my interest and it was a while before any particular "identity" attributes became clear to me; in chronological order I think it was "From the US", "African-American" and "female". That might say more about me than about Azizi but I have great respect for her activities as apparent from Mudcat and the occasional PM.

It seems to me that questions of identity and self-identification are the replacements for those questions of 'class' that exercised Anglophone communities a century ago and the questions of gender that exercised them later last century. Some people, because of their own experiences, are extremely sensitive about identification, while others are casual or even dismissive of it. Some, like Dafydd "The only gay in the village" in the Little Britain series, even lampoon it and even I can do a seriously mocking ocker when I think it appropriate.

Just keep on being, Azizi.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 05:04 PM

If you'd been born with the skin colour referred to as "black", John Hardly, that wouldn't necessarily mean you were African-American. After all most people with the range of colours referred to as "black" aren't. They (or their ancestors) might come from Africa, India, Australia, and quite a few other parts of the world. And of course there are many Americans with dark skin who don't have African ancestry.

If you wanted to indicate that your family of origin came - at least in part - from Africa, and not from those other parts of the world, and ended up in America, the obvious term is African-American, set alongside Irish-American and Italian-American. Nothing "asinine" about any of those terms so far as I can see.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 05:12 PM

Well, I just have three things to say:

1. First of all, Mizzi... You are the coolest of the cool... I mean, you got it goin'...

2. Yeah, I talk a little black, a little hillbilly, a little white, a little redneck, a little folk singer, a little bluesman, a little corney an', hey...

3. I'm glad now that with my poor ol' hillbilly back so outta sorts that this about all I can type at one danged sittin' 'er I'd prolly get my butt all whupped on... Maybe this is God's way of protectin' me???

I gotta go lie (lay) down now... Maybe drenk a cold beer...

Did I mention, Mizzi, that I think the world of' ya'??? If not, I do...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 05:25 PM

so what happened. Did you suggest it to someone else, and they said, not for me baby cos.......

I wouldn't like to think I made it difficult for anybody who wanted to talk about anything. Unless they sing inpenetable 20 minute folk ballads in Scottish accent.

we've got to draw the line somewhere ....

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 05:32 PM

I just noticed spaw's 25 Feb 08 - 04:18 PM post in which he tried to malign my adopted city, the great and powerful Pittsburgh.   

Umm, Spaw, what's the name of that small town you live in?

{Even though I envy it's Halloween customs}.

:o)

**

On a more serious note, I also just noticed peregrina's {mary's} 25 Feb 08 - 04:23 PM and her question "...is could we all here do things to make mudcat easier/more welcoming to you, to people of color generally?

I hope that folks here don't think that I'm saying that Mudcat members and guests have not been welcoming to me. My experience has been that many people here have been very welcoming. In the 3 1/2 years that I've been posting on Mudcat, I've seen a handful of racist comments posted on the public forum. None of those comments were directed towards me but were directed to Black people in general or to a Black celebrity in particular. One awful post that I remember was directed towards Bob Marley. I won't repeat what was said}. But I am still thankful to Peace for his {shall we say} forceful response to that guest who posted that comment.
All this to say that usually once moderators see racist comments from guests or members, they quickly delete those comments. And I'm grateful for that.

I think that race is an "up" subject. What I mean by this is that the subject of race it getting more attention as a result of Barack Obama's candidacy and also even before that. I think one reason for this on an esoteric level is that race is one of the major problems of the 20th century and early centuries that still needs to be resolved.

That being so, it's likely that we {Mudcatters} will continue to talk about race. I'm not suggesting that we don't. I know that sometimes more than other times and some Mudcat threads more than other threads, this is difficult for me. I also am mindful that this is probably true for others regardless of their race/ethnicity.

I just think the difficulty that I feel sometimes "goes with the territory". If it gets too much for me, I take a break from posting to those kinds of threads, or responding to those comments or starting these kinds of threads, or posting to Mudcat itself.

But after I've recharged my batteries, I'm back in the pool again.

Also, when interacting with individuals and groups who are in a minority {and when discussing hot button subjects like race}, I think that one thing people need to do is to try to think about how it might feel walking in that other person's shoes. But that does not mean to tip toe over hot coals. That might come across as being patronizing {a feeling I've not experienced on Mudcat, thank God}.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: John Hardly
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 05:35 PM

"Nothing "asinine" about any of those terms so far as I can see."

I don't doubt it. You have become uncommonly adept at avoiding the obvious in favor of the obtuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 06:11 PM

Possibly true, though I'd put it somewhat differently. But then I would, wouldn't I.

However in this case "the obvious" is, surely, that African-American is no more "asinine" than Irish-American, or Italian-American, or a range of other terms that Americans appear to find it convenient to make use of.

I suppose it is possible to argue that these labels get in the way of all Americans seeing themselves first and last as Americans, regardless of where their ancestors came from, that it would be better to avoid using them, and to emphasise this position by labelling them as "asinine". And that's an argument that has some merits.

So is that your position, John? Or is it just the African-American label you object to?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 06:34 PM

I regret to say that there seems to be a lot of resistance to what Azizi is saying. I don't always see eye to eye with her, and I think it has always as far as I remember been obvious that she was black, although I had sort of assumed that there were a number of other black catters.

I have I think mentioned that it was rare to see Azizi's mood lift, that it seemed so often to be anchored to a sombre study of actual or perceived prejudice - but this thread makes it seem clear that we needed and still need the insight that she provides.

We should nonetheless IMHO resist the temptation to airbrush history. A folk song is a folk song. Better not to bowdlerise it and then to discuss its unacceptabe features than to lose or censor the song.

I may not to date have been your staunchest supporter, Azizi, but subject to the above caveat I think I should weigh in for you more, if you so wish.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 06:40 PM

So virtual (mudcat) verbal intercourse is Emotionaly difficult for you and other people of color. Good! Very GOOD!

All interaction is emotionally difficult if not right up in your face challenging.

I can recall many accusations leveled against me on mudcat.
At one point it became so vicious that communicating in pictures and cartoons was a better alternative compared to the ad hominim attacks that followed my written word.

If it is uncomfortable, you are probably telling a truth that needs to be told. Just don't expect to be believed.
When you tell the unvarnished truth it will usually seem completely fictional to other people.

If you are uncomfortable listening to others there is probably a knowledge gap that requires some sort of bridge. A bridge to hate however is a bridge to no where.

Do haters ever change? Maybe. I heard only a couple people in my life claim they have overcome early childhood learned predjudice.
Maybe the hater changes an intellectual point of view but never the emotional or vice versa.
I just wouldn't want to wait around for the change to take hold.

WHat I am sure of is that the same people who called me a niggar lover when I was 11 are the same people who say there is no hope for me if I complement French health care or merely listen to the BBC rather than FOX.

Haters as a rule won't be changed until an undeniable life changing event changes them.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 07:10 PM

McGrath, as I've pointed out before, Morris Dees of the Southern Poverty Law Center, started this and there are many who follow...we are Americans first, then whatever ethnicity we choose to identify, i.e. American of African descent(or origin), American of Irish descent, American of Italian descent, etc., etc. It may be a little awkward to say, but it sure defines our commonality first then our diversity which makes sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: SINSULL
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 07:26 PM

I have waited to post until I had given this some thought. First, there are other "people of color" on Mudcat and I don't believe that Azizi necessarily represents their opinions. At least, they have not chosen to comment. If Mudcat is difficult for Azizi, let's discuss it.
Second, Mudcat is difficult for many sub-groups of folkies. The born again contingent gets worked over regularly, The "fallen Catholics", the Orange contingent, the IRA, Spaw, the obscene lyrics group, The "purists" etc -all are regularly subjected to posters who choose not to understand their posts or simply can not. We have a few ladies who read sexist discrimination into every male post and then accuse any woman who doesn't agree of being sheep. I think what I am trying to say here is that at least some of the time Azizi's experiences cause her to read too much into perfectly innocent posts. If you interpret it as racist or simply off the point EVERY TIME, maybe you need to look at your expectations.

I am an atheist who prays - FOR not TO. But every time it comes up I get raked over the coals by both sides.

Lastly, re: the elections - for the first time in American history we have a black man and a woman being seriously considered to represent a major party in the upcoming presidental election. Race is an issue. Sex is an issue. Were it not, there would have been female and black candidates long before now. We can pretend they are not or we can deal with it. But to pretend that this is not a momentous event in American history is in my opinion blind. Do I care - no. I won't vote for Clinton just because she is a woman and I won't vote for Obama simply because he is black. Many will vote for them and many will refuse to vote for either based on their sex or color. Either to me is racism/sexist.

Have I missed the point?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 07:35 PM

so what you're saying is that Obama could defuse the situation by having a sex change. then people could vote for a woman and a 'person of colour'.

frankly if I were him, I would consider it a sacrifice that his party were entitled to expect.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 07:57 PM

My point being, kat, that the same syntax shold be applied whichever kind of ancestry is being acknowledged. Hyphenated or "of descent" or whatever the preferred formula maybe from time to time.

Though in practice my impression is that most Americans fall into a whole range of what could be called "descent categories". Obama for example has Irish ancestors as well as Kenyan. Not just Americans of course - I've got a godson with an Irish mother and a Mexican father.

The thing is for "white" Americans there is more of an element of freedom to choose which to select as a primary one - for black Americans there is less. Apart, I suppose, from some instances where there may be an option of going either with the Hispanic label or the African-American one (or whatever the preferred term may be).

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:05 PM

I am a person of color. My color often prompts people to ask if I am OK and need to sit down. Have you seen the movie Powder? Well thats my color. You can guess what my nick name was. I was told that when I was born they pried my eyes open to be sure I was not an albino, which I am not. Yep, I reflect all colors and absorb very few. If it were the other way around I am sad to say I would probably have additional undeserved damaging problems on top of all the other human foibles we all have in common.

On the Obama thing, I believe there is plenty of room for people to want the populist over the traditional imperial candidate without race being a steering factor.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:05 PM

I would like to make a suggestion Azizi.

Think about the whole question of "WWAS" (what would azizi say) and ask what it is and why it exists and for whom it exists.

There may be instances that have contributed to you being characterised in this role, but the idea that you could be considered any type of arbiter on the subject of "how black people feel", like the black ambassador or somesuch is in my opinion unhealthy for you and for the site.

Race and Ethnicity are important issues for you, and most likely as a result of your lifetime experience. But your passion for that subject needn't define you on its own any more than your race should define you on its own.

They are obviously both parts of your identity, but like your sexuality, they only take up a proportion of it.

But ultimately, the dynamic of you as some kind of source for advice on "how the blacks see it" is something that can only develop if you participate in it's development.

You may have to accept some responsibility for that image of you/yourself.

So perhaps you should have asked "is it difficult ... " or something like it ... I can't think of a way of making it a discussion about anything other than how you feel.

Perhaps it's difficult to be Azizi on the mudcat ...

My question to you is, is it any more difficult on Mudcat than anywhere else?

I don't mean to be insulting but it reminds me a bit of a Character in the british comedy sketch Little Britain.


Daffyd is the self proclaimed only Gay in the village, and is frequently disappointed at the lack of controversy surrounding him.

People like you here Azizi because you're a nice person with a big sensitive heart and a wise old intelligent clear creative mind.

Well ok - perhaps I should just speak for myself ...

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:06 PM

I'm trying to figure out what I mean when I say that things are difficult for me at Mudcat sometimes...

First off, I'm specifically talking about threads when the subject of race {Black/non-Black race and race relations} comes up.

In his 25 Feb 08 - 06:34 PM post Richard wrote that "it was rare to see Azizi's mood lift, that it seemed so often to be anchored to a sombre study of actual or perceived prejudice".

That's the thing. I don't want to be somber. One thing that I didn't know about myself that I learned from posting on Mudcat is that I have a wierd sense of humor and I like being witty or at least I like trying to be witty.

The thing is that I come to Mudcat to cool out, to kick back and relax, and engage in some intellectually exchange with folks who think about more than American Idol. Sometimes I really need to get away from it all. And some of what I need to get away from is that four letter word "race". I like being a member of an international community. I like learning about different people and places and cultures. I get energized by those threads.

If I know that a thread is about race, I can open it if I want to and join in the conversation. Or I can lurk or not even open that thread. And I have done each of these things. But what is more difficult for me is what I call being blindsided when I think I'm going to be joining a conversation about another subject and the subject of race comes up-on its and not because I'm there {or I don't think it's because I'm a part of the conversation}.

A lot of times it makes my somber mood come right back again.

Race is a serious subject and sometimes I don't always want to be serious. It's not that I'm uncomfortable talking about race on Mudcat. But particularly when I'm at low energy, it's more than a notion to talk about something that in the best of times can be energy draining.

One reason why this subject drains my energy is that sometimes it's like I'm talking another language and trying to explain a culture that is foreign to other people. And so not only do I have to be careful about what I say, I have to be careful about how I say it. Not only that, but I don't want to hurt people's feelings and I don't want people to perceive me as someone who is always talking about Black stuff {too late for that I know}. But that isn't the real me.

Yet, when I think of it, as I realized when I wrote about race on another Mudcat thread {I guess I do this periodically, don't I?}, in my life from college on, I've been "the only" Black person in a lot of different settings. So there must be something about that which is fated or which I gravitate to {maybe both}.

Btw, Richard Bridge, I agree with your statement that "We should nonetheless.... resist the temptation to airbrush history. A folk song is a folk song. Better not to bowdlerise it and then to discuss its unacceptabe features than to lose or censor the song."

However, I'm much more in favor of the study of songs with the n-word and with 19th century Black dialect than teaching them and encouraging children to sing them.

And, another thing, Richard. What's that you say? You don't always see eye to eye with me? For shame!

But that's okay, Richard. I don't want you or anybody else agreeing with me about everything that I say.

That would be really dull, now wouldn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: John O'L
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:15 PM

Try being an Australian on this forum. By the time you see a thread it's already 3 pages long, everything's been said, and eveybody else is done with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:19 PM

Azizi-you are a nice mudcat person, and you know about folk songs but..
Why do you keep going on about you been black?
Thee are plenty of minority groups here, [poofs, lesbiuns, disableds etc}, we are judged here by what we write, not skin colour, size , shape , age or any other discering feature.

You are famous here for been black, youve mentioned it loads of times,
you are not the only black member here, i know of at least 2 others.


you make a thread="Mudcat is hard for black people".
I don;t know, as i;m white, but can;t see as i would enjoy this site any less if i was black.

ie, maybe you blame all problem on racism?
eg your bus is late, "they racist!"
no, there was traffic jam!

or you got bad sevice in hotel or rrestaraunt, so ="they rasicst",
maybe is just rubbish place, and service is bad for everyone?


race is not relevant here, we all folk music lovers,
just forget about your race/colour and get on with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:24 PM

Ah but the Aussies can get in and hammer away at the threads they start well before anyone else gets a chance at them.

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:26 PM

?

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Amos
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:27 PM

The only thought I can had, dear Zeez, is that if the difficulty you are trying to pin down is persistant, makes you glum, cannot be quite spotted, then the possibility should be examined whether it is being based on a completely wrong assumption -- in other words that it has been pinned on "race" when it is really from some other source altogether.

Just a thought, one way or the other.

Regards,


A

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:30 PM

Having said that,

This is a discussion forum wher as you say, you have the opportunity to explore issues and record the process.

And the questions that matter to you are as important as the questions which matter to everyone else.

Furthermore, as Sinsull has pointed out, race is an issue and to pretend it isn't is just plain silly.

And it's an uncomfortable issue to discuss.

It poisons everyday discourse.

It gets between me and friends and makes us wince s we squeeze through it " ... oh yeah I've got this friend who ... " " ... oh what does she look like ... "

" ... well he/she wears a blue hat ... he/she's white/black ... "

- wince -

" ... yeah so anyway ... he /she thinks blah blah ..."

And for you it's important to talk about it.

Now that is healthy.

People who insist on talking about these issues intelligently serve to keep the rest of us, white and black, from becoming complacent.

Race crime is apparently on the up in the UK of late ...

... and this ... the cradle of civilization ...

Begorrah and Bejaysus!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 08:31 PM

Hundred???